Developing a method for tagging, tracking, and identifying filament for 3d printing in machine-readable formats to eliminate the guess-work.
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Whosa whatsis
owner

Discussion  - 
 
 
I heard back from the +Electronic Frontier Foundation about the whole #takerbot  thing today. Turns out their project to fight bogus 3d printing patents was a temporary thing, headed up by someone from Harvard who is no longer there. Aside from that, they don't do a lot of PTO work, so they probably won't be taking on the case formally, but they did offer to point me to some resources and to see if some other organizations like +Public Knowledge would be interested in taking on the case.
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Rojer Wisner's profile photoDaid Braam's profile photo
2 comments
 
Good luck - and really sorry to hear that this has come about this way. Good luck - it is an important endeavor to undertake. Hang in there.
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Camerin hahn
owner

Measurement of material  - 
 
Hello,
This summer i am working on material test optimization.

This piece is going to be what we used to make our color/opacity samples with. We know you could 3d print these samples, however by varying infill/bottom layer/over extruding/under extruding, you could dramatically change some of these measurements. this will force the material into a captive chamber and make an injection mold.

The plan is to use #E3d's heat break, heat sync, fan, thermistor, and heating cartridges for the time being. (Eventually we would like to get away from the heat sync as this part will not need the compact/light cooling mechanism. We would rather have something that is less expensive to machine.)

This is a rough drawing, i am still playing with some of the measurements that will be done with this. Currently the sample is 10x20, i am thinking about making it 10x40 so we can do strain testing on the same part.

Important information:
In the sample area, the walls need to be cut with at tapered bit, a square bit will result in a sample that is impossible to remove.
This is designed to do a "sudo" injection mold using a heated block. It isn't closed to designed or prototyped.
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Camerin hahn's profile photoDavid Rorex's profile photo
2 comments
 
+David Rorex Those run around 1K and only take pellets (and still need a die to be cut), we want something around $100-$200, that takes filament.

I was interested in that part as well. I am working with a guy that used to do this as part of his job, he was saying if we don't care about resolution, just heat up the mold to temp, then squish plastic in. It wont be the prettiest shot, it is allot cheaper.

There are some challenges that need to be worked out with this, but it should work.
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Ross Hendrickson
moderator

Development of the standard  - 
 
UFID Meeting June

http://whenisgood.net/tnzpmcgas

Proposed Agenda

Slicer Integration updates
Vendor Adoption
Measurements Standards and Methods
Resins and Powder update
Spool Design Updates

+Justin Nesselrotte +Whosa whatsis +Camerin hahn

Everyone please reshare to people you want to sign up for the meeting. Remember we can only have 10 people in a hangout and we will try to find a time. If there are distinct groups I will set up more than one event.
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Camerin hahn's profile photoRoss Hendrickson's profile photo
 
I have a bit if an update for measurements and standards... Will post in a bit.
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Camerin hahn
owner

Measurement of material  - 
 
So we do need to start working on a measurement system if we want real adoption to occur. Filaments are being developed at a rate that is faster then we a vendor could test them... I want to have a brief discussion with respect to what that would look like, and what limitations we would have on each part.

Part 1:
Hot end force measurement against hot end temp. This would require a hot end that operates at both very high and low temps (so all metal). This will be a huge challenge for flexy filaments.

Part 2: calibrated color and opacity checker, should be done on filament that has been heat cycled. I am thinking that using a fat nozzle into a 1cm alu cube (very basic injection mold)

Part 3:
Plastic data sheet should contain the Tg, material content, and other stuff in the standard.
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Miguel Sánchez's profile photo
7 comments
 
+Whosa whatsis if desired, a there color band filter may help having frames that provide filament color information too.
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Camerin hahn
owner

Discussion  - 
 
To all of the EU people in the group. We want to know what times are good for you. We are going to try and make these happen monthly, one month it will be a normal time for people in the Americas, the other will be at a normal time for the EU (assuming there is interest).

This is your chance to speak up before next month. we do want to find time for you guys (Note for me EU evenings are almost impossible as they land in the middle of my day job but we will try)
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Whosa whatsis's profile photoMarcin Lukasik's profile photo
8 comments
 
yes, sorry.
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Ross Hendrickson
moderator

Discussion  - 
 
Lets get back on track. Sorry for my absence - life has been nuts (baby, traveling for work).

Suggested Agenda
* Slicer integration
* Vendor adoption
* New filaments that have been released - Contacting them.
* Richard Horne's proposed spool post
* Feedback from E3D would be appreciated.

+Whosa whatsis +Camerin hahn +Justin Nesselrotte +Sanjay Mortimer 

http://whenisgood.net/tnzpmcgas
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Joshua Rowley's profile photoRichard Horne's profile photo
8 comments
 
Thanks for the invite and I'll try to make it.
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Ross Hendrickson
moderator

Discussion  - 
 
April Meeting scheduling. Please propose items to be added to the agenda.

My suggestions

* Slicer integration
* Vendor adoption
* New filaments that have been released - Contacting them.
* Richard Horne's proposed spool post
* Feedback from E3D would be appreciated. 

http://whenisgood.net/tnzpmcg
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Justin Nesselrotte's profile photoRoss Hendrickson's profile photo
6 comments
 
I'm going to assume that this meeting has been cancelled. 
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David Rorex

Discussion  - 
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Camerin hahn's profile photoJo Bigger's profile photo
2 comments
 
Loving this chart.
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Camerin hahn
owner

Discussion  - 
 
I personally think we should get on board with this. 

Edit: a link to the reprap discussion board.

http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?262,324209
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Whosa whatsis's profile photo
 
I totally agree. It's going to be needed for the open cartridge design to work.
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Whosa whatsis
owner

Implementation  - 
 
Slicer support for volumetric E units using M200 was brought up in the hangout. Just thought I'd update that +Alessandro Ranellucci responded positively to the request: https://github.com/alexrj/Slic3r/issues/1746#issuecomment-34517868

+Daid Braam, any chance of getting Cura to support this without the Ulti-gcode mode that requires other features specific to the Ultimaker 2 control panel? Link to the implementation: https://github.com/ErikZalm/Marlin/blob/Marlin_v1/Marlin/Marlin_main.cpp#L2211
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Whosa whatsis's profile photoPaulo Kiefe's profile photoDaid Braam's profile photo
4 comments
 
+Daid Braam, I submitted a new pull request to update this, along with a couple of fixes for other things I discovered while testing it. You might want to take a look. https://github.com/ErikZalm/Marlin/pull/768
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Here's a review of most #filament  recyclers in the market. Let us know if we missed any! Thanks 
http://www.inside3dp.com/cheaper-3d-printing-review-filament-recyclers/
Filament recyclers can reduce the costs of 3D printing and make the technology greener. We reviewed most of the machines available to consumers.
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Dave DeWitt's profile photoItai Levitan's profile photo
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Camerin hahn
owner

Measurement of material  - 
 
At the current time i am working on measurement systems for UFIDs. Right now i am looking at parts for the Force vs. temperature measurement. i am thinking that a 10 Kg force sensor should be enough to handle typical extruder forces (given mechanical advantage is used properly). what do you think. For reference that would imply 180 n*cm on the filament drive without mechanical advantage, I am thinking.

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9375
or
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10245

I know these are being used on the delta leveling, so compatibility should not be a problem. I am concerned about using the high mass load cells as we will be operating near the bottom of the detection range.
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Whosa whatsis's profile photoCamerin hahn's profile photo
23 comments
 
+Gert Galjoen, +Whosa whatsis  Force wont work, I think the best metric would be a encoder wheel being pulled by the filament, but that is going to have issues.

You cannot trust the extruder, as teeth sink in. Force doesn't work for the same reason and the viscosity of the material will change the force (heat changes the viscosity.
 

Edit: Force should be used as feed back for the temp though, keep them motors working at their optimal toruqe at low and high print speeds.
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Takerbot is trying to steal UFID from us too.
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Whosa whatsis's profile photoStephanie Shaltes's profile photoJohnny Russell's profile photoRichard Horne's profile photo
14 comments
 
I will have to do some research to determine the date when our spools got "barcodes". My best guess is between 1-3yrs. We added alpha-numeric product identifier when we first started shipping in 2009. Alphanumeric can be machine read and decoded by OCR. UFID was the first I heard of adjusting print parameters based on data parsed from feedstock labels.

I only skimmed over the patent app, but it looks like more "Do X on a 3D printer". One of our placement machines (2007 vintage) uses QR codes or serial data on everything, automagically adjusting process to suit the identified fixture, nozzle, or feeder. The systems described are widely used outside 3D printing.

I don't think they care if it the patents are legitimate. My bet is: They just want to increase their patent count to lure investors, increase valuation, and cash out.
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Ross Hendrickson
moderator

Development of the standard  - 
 
For interested parties, here is the hangout on YouTube.

UFID May Meeting: http://youtu.be/IEtQKZAewnE
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Marcin Lukasik's profile photo
 
Thanks Ross!
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R Miloh

Discussion  - 
 
I'm working on some quick overview documentation of the UFIDS workflow as I see it.

It will probably have some errors that you all should point out so I can fix my understanding and improve it.

The idea is to create a simple graphic that shows how the standard will be used by and useful to machine vendors, filament vendors, and machine operators. 
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Camerin hahn's profile photo
 
Can you post something that shows where you are at, and how that is coming.
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Joshua Rowley

Implementation  - 
 
An update on how things are going WRT UFID at E3D:

Some of our filament now goes out with a sticker on it containing plaintext print settings as well as the UFID barcode. 

Technically the system works well, however we have the problem that collecting good data that we are happy to put on the side of our spools is proving to be a fairly time-consuming task, and because we are growing our filament range quickly it is also relentless!

To combat this I have started to write a very basic website that will allow users to submit filaments and their physical properties to our database. This covers things that cannot (or at least should not..) be disputed, like colour, filament diameter, max temp, tg, etc..

Then within each filament "printing profiles' can be uploaded (covering printing temperatures, etc..) - these may vary for different applications and can be up-voted/down-voted.

The intention is then to seed this database with our filaments and ask those that we sell to to submit settings they found to be optimal. 

The initial outlay of effort for this from my side is quite high though, and we have been very busy making improvements on v6 so it has taken a bit of back-burner, but over the next few weeks I hope to make some tracks into it - especially if +Ewan Jones can help out! :)

If well implemented, I feel it could be a useful tool for the wider community. 
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Camerin hahn's profile photoEwan Jones's profile photo
2 comments
 
I'm just cleaning up the code and I'll post an implementation on GitHub/BitBucket but we're not quite ready for public users just yet. Hopefully, when it's in a more useable state, we'll ask for some beta users who are willing to help populate the database and share their experience. 
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Whosa whatsis
owner

Development of the standard  - 
 
I've found another value that we need to include. I've noticed, specifically when working with smaller-diameter drive gears, that the compressibility of the filament is an important factor. A very compressible filament will need an increased flow ratio because, as the teeth of the drive gear are able to sink deeper into the filament, the filament will be closer to the center of the drive gear. This effectively reduces the diameter of the drive gear, thus increasing the steps/mm. Figuring out how to calculate this increase, and even what measurement to use for the calculation, will take some more research, but this is a value that will be needed for the type of "plug and print" functionality we're trying to make possible, at least with current forms of extruder hardware (though it may be possible to bypass this need by using encoder-equipped extruders).
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Whosa whatsis's profile photoJo Bigger's profile photo
14 comments
 
Yes, filament is tomorrow's cassette tape, but when it comes to technology, there are only two kinds: Those that are tomorrow's cassette tape, and those that are today's cassette tape.
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Joshua Rowley

Implementation  - 
 
Hi All,

I have written a UFID URL generator in Python should this be of any use to anyone. The link is attached to this post and I would welcome any comments or suggestions on the implementation. I am going to keep the code-base maintained to reflect the current standard of the UFID project. Hopefully this will save +Camerin hahn some time in implementing a js wrapper. 

This is part of a project that we are working on at E3D to create a publicly maintained filament database that will allow users to search for print profiles and, through the UFID website, download configurations. We are starting out with a database of the filaments that we stock in our store but hope that by building this up as a service, manufacturers and individuals will contribute to build a database that will be valuable to the community. 

There is a lot of work to be done on the E3Database side of things, and if anyone is interested in becoming part of the project let me know! :) +Philip Crump 

Cheers,
Josh

+Sanjay Mortimer 
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Kenneth Cummings's profile photoCamerin hahn's profile photo
3 comments
 
+Joshua Rowley sorry about the delay for the wrapper. Thanks a bunch.

Also this is so much cleaner in python.... 
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Camerin hahn
owner

Manufacture/hardware support  - 
 
Hey guys, sorry about radio silence on any development. I have been digging into how we can get the ufid library to work in one of many sales automation work flows. During our last meeting +Sanjay Mortimer and +Joshua Rowley mentioned that their automation setup is written in python and have requested some way to interface with the qr generator.

So after alot of digging, and learning, I think the most logical way to make this work will be to write a interpreter using the v8 JavaScript tool to make an application with hooks out to python, c, vb, labview or other automation suite. This is going to take me some time, but I wanted to give you guys a heads up that there is a plan.
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Camerin hahn's profile photoDan Lipsitt's profile photo
3 comments
 
+Dan Lipsitt Apologies, I missed this thread. i will be looking at it tonight.
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Whosa whatsis
owner

Development of the standard  - 
 
I thought of another temperature that's important for us to include: minimum bonding temperature. This is the minimum average temperature of the junction between two pieces to fuse them together. For PLA this will probably be quite low because PLA is so damn sticky when it's melted, but for ABS, the average temperature of the material being extruded and the material you're trying to fuse it to should be above the melting point (which is why you don't use a cooling fan on ABS). This number will be needed for ensuring that the extrusion temperature is not dropped too low to fuse the extrudate to the previous layer (using whatever data the machine has available to infer the current temperature of the previous layer).
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Marcin Lukasik's profile photoMark Durbin's profile photo
9 comments
 
+Mark Durbin I know about that thread, but not sure what you're trying to say?
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