Linus Torvalds
4 years agoPublic
If you're as confused as I am, you probably have your fingers and brainstem trained for an editor from decades ago, and you simply can't get real work done with anything else.

But decades ago, nobody used UTF8, and if US-ASCII was good enough for 'murricans, it was damn well good enough for you too.

If you were some furriner with odd characters (but not too many of them), you would remap such useless characters as '{' '}' and '|' to be your odd foreign 'å' 'ä' and 'ö' characters, which made C programming with your Finnish terminal look really odd.

But yeah, I still use the same editor.  And yes, if I do a case-insensitive search for '{', I'll also find '[', because those are obviously the same things as 'ä' and 'Ä' respectively, right?

But hey, times are changing, and we first moved to Latin1, which made C programming look sane again, and now we have all those other furriners that have really odd characters so everything in the kernel is UTF8 these days. Well, supposed to be, at least.

So what to do? Update to a modern editor? Hell no.  My fingers know what they know, and aren't changing.  So for the other three people out there using "uEmacs/PK" (not to be confused with real emacs, which is the tool of the devil), you can now get a shiny new version of the same old cruddy editor, but now it actually edits UTF8.

There's a few odd corner cases left, so it's definitely not perfect, but it's almost quite usable.;a=summary

Gordon McIntosh4 years ago
I still use vi quite a lot+57
Fabrizio Vignali4 years ago
Thank you, i'm not alone ;)+2
Arnaud Tanguy4 years ago
I'm more of a Vim user ;)+65
Dan Scannell4 years ago
I think Richard Stallman might come visit your house and sing the Free Software Song just for that comment on emacs bashing =)+49
Martin Sugioarto4 years ago
I am surprised that you are not using vim.

I am so accustomed to vim that I press ESC everywhere when I finish typing, even in web browsers. :) 
Paul Foster4 years ago
I still remember the old line by line text editor on the xerox bulk laser printers, you did edits on multiple lines at once by typing the right commands at the console prompt. None of this seeing all the text on screen business. It was a nightmare to learn but you could work so quickly when you were used to it. Wonder if you can still get a copy of it?+3
+Martin Sugioarto heh me too.+1
rudy s4 years ago
"not to be confused with real emacs, which is the tool of the devil"

I'm not touching that one
+Martin Sugioarto I bet you are also pressing 'n' when searching something in your browser :)+1
Jonathan Ballard4 years ago
I found the need for the lowest-level editor that keeps transaction of files, images, and blobs with RESTful logs. No worries over the details, as that's in the name, whenever that happens.

I'm not the one that writes up an RFC for RSH(1)://NaCl/cmd?query.
Morg4 years ago
Or you can just use vim :)+3
Philipp Baumann4 years ago
I guess the can has been opened. ^^+3
Jonathan Ballard4 years ago
... RFC for RSH(1)://NaCl/cmd?query#vim.
Eric Cochran4 years ago
haha, I don't think it's going to.
But seriously, I am glad that modern editors have gotten better.
Devin Stewart4 years ago
My fingers are too used to vim. ;-)+7
Arnaud Tanguy4 years ago
+Paul Foster Have a look at ed if you want a minimalist text editor, based on commands, using a vi-like command syntax.
I don't know about xerox printers, but it seems close enough to what you describe ;)
Eric Cochran4 years ago
Hey, did the G+-ers of the world mention that we use Vim?  :)+8
Keith C. Perry4 years ago
+Linus Torvalds HA!, you're killing me, I still use VI... like way more than I ever thought I would at this point but like you said this is burned into my very soul now.  Its my editing equivalent of a blanket.+6
Luis Barrientos4 years ago
I'm fine with vi+2
Very well, congratulations!...
huh? i use vim and it's a stunning editor! never had any problems with utf-8! it works like a charme for me. all my sources are encoded in utf-8 and also my databases are fully utf-8 enabled. even the distribution is based on utf-8. everything is fine. btw, i am german and i love to have my "ö's" and "ä's" :)))+2
Samuel Sarette4 years ago
I've used vim more than emacs, but for simplicity, if I have to use a CLI editor, it's nano.

I'm addicted to Kate (and by extension KDevelop) for programming.
David Romain4 years ago
Off topic but if you ever cross paths with Herb Sutter, tell him Oakville West sends their greetings ; ). This may sound like a weird comment now, but it will be an interesting conversation starter non the less.
Get with it daddio, all the cool kids are using Vim!+2
Marco Puggelli4 years ago
started using vi in high school days and never stopped since, well.. using vim where I can.
Arjan van de Ven4 years ago
do you have a tarbal release of this?
might be fun to just build it for a hobby OS project ;-)
Hongzheng Wang4 years ago
The cross-platform portability of editor seems more important to me as I have to work under different circumstances.
Renaud Aubin4 years ago
I used to believe that GNU/Emacs was an OS ;) Anyway, I use emacs everyday and even if we could debate for decades on its evilness... For me, emacs is THE editor (using a decent keyboard and using space as CTRL).+5
D. R. Arthur4 years ago
Vi and vim in general shows your gusto in the editor space. Maybe an iOS version of vi ought to become available?

#ipad #vim #modal #fast #wish #app
Robert Poole4 years ago
I've heard a lot of slams against emacs, but calling it a tool of the devil?  That's harsh, even if it is just a bit of hyperbole.

I do love how emacs bashers typically are vi enthusiasts who think modal editing is the most natural thing ever, even though no modern GUI-based editors* do that.  I think this just proves that whatever you learned first seems natural, and everything else sucks.

For me, as an MIT undergrad, I wasn't even told that vi existed, because all undergrads were expected to learn emacs and that's it.

*that I can think of
Paolo Donadeo4 years ago
Oh, no, Vim vs. Emacs again and again... In any case, my editor is Vim now and forever :-)

And of course Stallman says that Vim is actually the tool of devil!
Zebadiah Long4 years ago
I imagine using vim on a phone would be about as bad as trying to play nethack. there's just not enough interface space+5
Samuel Sarette4 years ago
btw, I use Kate on Windows, too. The KDE windows installer is nice (though not normal people friendly).
Thomas Cross4 years ago
+Zebadiah Long main problem with using vim on a phone (even with hardware keyboard slide phones): muscle memory doesn't work out with that kind of "keyboard" so it feels like a completely different software all of a sudden ...+2
Bruno Unna4 years ago
A "modern" editor? What's that? ;-)

I'm so used to vi (vim, actually), that can't think of myself using anything else in a comfortable way. And when younger geeks mock me because of that, I (when in the mood) throw at their faces a quick demonstration of my editor's power. First, they get shut. Then, sooner or later, they can be seen trying to learn the thing.

So I understand your adamancy to change your editor, naturally. But editors, along with some other matters (like gods) are a good source of war!
Diego Estévez4 years ago
vim master race report in+4
Linus Torvalds4 years ago
Hey, vim users - you're the work of the devil too (modal editing? Get thee away from me), so don't get too uppity.

Sure, I can use vim if I have to, but it's not the command set my fingers are hardcoded for.
Martin Sugioarto4 years ago
+Robert Poole , I've been using Emacs for several years and I've been laughing about "all those vi freaks" who switch modes and stuff.

Later I learned about vim... and never looked back. Now I just know some cryptic Emacs key combinations like ^X^C to quit this thing.
Daniel Arndt4 years ago
+Matt Pharoah KDevelop is a pretty nice IDE for Linux with all the indexing and goodies.. I've only used it on smaller projects, however.+1
Joe Dougherty4 years ago
I'm kind of partial to a CLI editor called joe. And not because we have the same name. All editors are the work of the devil, anyway. That's because coding is hell.+5
Paulo Dias4 years ago
emacs is not the tool of the devil, its evil itself, the devil is just one of its many functions :D+20
Mikhail Kandel4 years ago
I use Netbeans to browse the Linux kernel. Bite me.+4
Simon B4 years ago
vim for the wim win+1
John Pate4 years ago
+Krzysztof Tulidowicz with vimperator I do press 'n' when searching :)
Linus Torvalds4 years ago
+Michael Sammels: trust me, if your fingers aren't already hardcoded for uemacs, you should not try to learn it now.

I started using it because it was used inside the University of Helsinki, and it was supported across all the platforms there (notably VMS) and fairly small and fast. The "PK" part of uEmacs/PK is from Petri Kutvonen, who was the main CS support guy, and hacked it up to do all the odd Finnish character set stuff and made it work better on slow 300 bps links.

Today? Only insane people would start using it. The one and only reason to use it is that you can't kick the habit.
yes +Linus Torvalds i am the work of the devil - therefore i use vim. that's it :D ...and i love it! but everyone has to make the choice for him(her)self... it's not a question of "which editor is better" - it's a question of personal preferences... just as simple as this.+6
Zebadiah Long4 years ago
At this point it's the non-modal editing that makes no sense to me
Himanshu Chauhan4 years ago
+Linus Torvalds Have you even tried Qemacs?
Bracken Dawson4 years ago
I love vim, did you know there is a key sequence to remove all lines and save the file?
Martin Sugioarto4 years ago
I see a chance to convert +Linus Torvalds to the one true editor, Vim. :D+3
UTF-8 is the way forward, I use Gedit to write code in golang, I'm happy with that!
Simone Berto4 years ago
Of course :)
Darby McNutt4 years ago
vi rules, Emacs drools...

I really dislike the term "'murricans"... Makes me think that the whole world sees us as a bunch of redneck Texans...
Bobby W4 years ago
>not using notepad
Martin Sugioarto4 years ago
+Bracken Dawson, is it ggVGdZZ? I just follow the intuition. :)
vim 4 life...+2
I hope you dont have the same perspective for the linux kernel+1
Moritz Schmidt4 years ago
Everybody clings to the things he's used to... well thats news.
Bracken Dawson4 years ago
+Martin Sugioarto I don't know, it was one of those "I've entered some sort of context and I don't know what" moments.
Martin Sugioarto4 years ago
+Michael Sammels ... not at all. Just having fun here. :)
Max Eliaser4 years ago
GEDIT IS BETTER! (/me dodges tomatoes.)+3
Aaron Honeycutt4 years ago
Kate/KWrite is nice.+1
Steev Bryant4 years ago
I just really modify configs, do a little scripting and write with plain text (smaller then word processor files). I use nano in a term or grant, but leafpad, gedit, Kate or mcedit all get the job done.
Lukas Ciszewski4 years ago
Vim is your tool, if you don't want to move your fingers.+1
Samuel Nelson4 years ago
Huh.  I am apparently the devil.

I'll check out your uEmacs/PK, though.  I think I'd miss my ECB and a number of other plugins and customization too much to use it as a primary editor, but I'll try anything.
Patrick Dubois4 years ago
+Aaron Honeycutt Kate/Kwrite with Fish is even better.
Saad Akhtar4 years ago
Nano is my primary editor and second comes vi. Although I do not see vi any inferior to nano.
Bill Rhodes4 years ago
Emacs: A great OS with a shitty editor.+4
Kiran Chava4 years ago
Vim. Offtopic but any way to type Telugu in vim?
Real programmers use cat

Benedikt Morbach4 years ago
Real men use butterflies!+11
Joe Philipps4 years ago
+Zebadiah Long, that would depend on the IME.  I regularly use Access Company's implementation of Graffiti, and that takes up only about 1/2 to 2/3 the vertical space that other keyboards do.  Quikwriting is another IME example which, when sized down a bit, doesn't take as much room.+1
Phil Stracchino4 years ago
Now if only Xcoral had proper UTF8 support....

If I don't have access to Xcoral, I'll use nano if it's there, vi if I have to.  The in-your-face-with-a-flaming-chainsaw pathological modality of vi drives me bugnuts, but not as much as the "you are trapped in a maze of twisty little key chords, all alike" of emacs.
Paul Flint4 years ago
Dear Linus,
Religious topics ignite us...

...from a cell phone on a bus.


Joe Philipps4 years ago
+Kiran Chava , sure.  First type a, A, i, o, or O, then T-e-l-u-g-u followed by ESC.  There...wasn't that hard, if you ask me :-).+1
paul romanchenko4 years ago
There is only one editor and Bram is his prophet.+1
Martin Loeschner4 years ago
I'm using gedit on the desktop and vim on the terminal. Why? Well, vim was the first editor which came to my attention and I really got used to it.

Joe Philipps4 years ago
+D. R. Arthur ...huh...guess I never thought of that.  I've been using some incarnation of vi on my Android tablet that I guess came with it (one of the functions of BusyBox maybe?)
Brian Woods4 years ago
Thank you! I honestly just considered switching away from uEmacs.
Olof Johansson4 years ago
En chrome-plugin att konverera sjubitarssvenska till n}got modernare vore i och f|r sig inte helt dumt, jag skriver och l{ser det fortfarande helt flytande, och d} slipper man byta layout. :)+2
Translated from Swedish|Original
Joe Philipps4 years ago you say?  I wonder if it's symmetrical, like there is "more" and "less"...I wonder if there is a "dog" that does anything useful...sorry...just being whimsical.
Philip Balister4 years ago
I still miss changing my kernel from the Finnish keyboard to the US keyboard.
Andrew Dodd4 years ago
Ah, this is the beauty of open source.  If you have an ancient editor that almost no one uses except for those that went to a particular educational institution, you can do what Linus did and keep that editor alive.  :)

I'm weird...  I'm usually an emacs guy, but I've found myself using nano more and more now that it has syntax highlighting and because emacs often breaks my whitespace setup...
Alan Cox4 years ago
Joe does UTF-8 happily so I still use the old CP/M keys I learned way back when but mix them with compose characters to type stuff like °

Does this mean we can finally put accents into patches and spell English words properly without getting hate mail ?
Joe Philipps4 years ago
I likewise don't understand people's put-downs of Emacs.  I like GNU Emacs.  Of course, it's so large that it isn't implemented everywhere, so I learned to become somewhat adept at using vi and its variants like vim.  What really tends to tweak me though is out of the box, so many of these editors think it's a particularly good idea to light up my monitor like a frakking Christmas tree (with multicolored lights); it isn't...especially when some of the colors (like dark blue) blend in with the blackness which is the background of the console.  Same thing goes for the default installs of ls(1).  I guess SOME people find the colorations useful, but I don't.

Worse yet, I will admit being in that dual universe screws me up a lot.  I will pull up Emacs to edit something, start jamming several times on "j", and sort of wonder why, instead of the cursor moving down, I get a whole mess of "j"s inserted instead (* facepalm *).
Jesse Riddle4 years ago
Love the use of 'murrican and 'furriner. I thought it was only a "midwest" thing to make fun of our own accent, glad it has made it out west. :)
Ahh, that is why I haven't seen updates to f3b2516 (commit/commit-tree: correct latin1 to utf-8, 2012-06-28) from you—it no longer is relevant ;-)+1
Chi-kwan Chan4 years ago
People used to call emacs an OS, right?

me@laptop:gnu$ du -hs *.git
601M emacs.git
582M linux.git
628K uemacs.git
Manuel Alfaro4 years ago
I am destined to hell then. I use Vim for when in text mode and emacs when developing.+2
Peter Fröhlich4 years ago
I remember Microemacs from the Amiga. Never could get used to it though, bought Cygnus instead. Then finally someone showed me vi during an internship and I've never looked back. :-D+1
Tim Burt4 years ago
"It's almost quite usable", /me chuckles
+Alan Cox Nice :-D Already leaning back and taking out the popcorn.
Can't stand VI. On the terminal, I've always enjoyed Pico (which is part of Pine). Outside of that I've really grown to like Notepad++. I use Wine when I'm in Linux to use it. +1
Joe Philipps4 years ago
+Peter Froehlich, the wonderful thing about Microemacs for the Amiga is that, like almost all other Amiga programs, it had menus, and in those menus it had the keystrokes which would do the same thing as selecting the menu items.  Thus when later using GNU Emacs on other Unix and GNU Linux systems, there was not much to relearn, and things were streamlined for me because I didn't have to keep on making menu selections.

I also tried GNU Emacs on the Amiga (1000) was more like, invoke Emacs to edit a file, go take a coffee/tea break, then come back to editing a file (It took quite a lot of time just to get it loaded up and working).
Linus Torvalds4 years ago
+Alan Cox +Junio C Hamano: while all my tools are now utf-8 clean (and I've worked around issues before - sometimes falling back to just using vim), I suspect others are not. In particular, Andrew Morton seems to have a flow where all character set stuff gets dropped.

Also, it's worth noting that when sending actual patches around, many MUA's end up selecting a lowest-common-denominator character set for the email, and then if anybody ever uses a tool that doesn't look at the email headers etc, the character set data gets lost - even if the actual character itself got through. And then random things will happen.

So we've had utf8 in commit comments for a long time (look for names like 说不得 etc), but we also still have various cases where they can get dropped. It won't be by me, though.
My favourite corner case is that \b (in regular expressions) does not work as expected for UTF-8 letters.
Brendon Green4 years ago
+Chi-kwan Chan yes, but can it boot, or have they already embedded the Linux kernel?
Eric Greenberg4 years ago
Lewis Hemens4 years ago
gedit, like a boss
André Saunite4 years ago
Vim! Had no idea Linus used this "uEmacs/PK" thing... I am usually afraid of Emacs! Hahahaha
Luke Burns4 years ago
James O'Brien4 years ago
If I'm on the server, it's VIM for sure.  Otherwise there will be j's and k's all over the file.
Roberth Edberg4 years ago
vi rules, as ever!+3
Howard Pepper4 years ago
I ran Emacs once, just to see what it looked like.  Then I couldn't figure out how to exit and I panicked.  To this day I still suffer from PTSD from that one Emacs experience!  Vim all the way!!! (flame on!) :D+4
James Carson4 years ago
Can't beat nano for the basics.+1
Alan Cox4 years ago
You'd think anyone who can cope with typing Finnish could cope with vi commands, as they look the same+18
Craig Humphreys4 years ago
The ultimate "religious fervor war" between Vi and Emacs supporters.  One we all feel so passionately about (Vi for me, love the simplicity, speed, and macros, hate all those keystrokes in Emacs), and absolutely nobody else in the world gives a **.+1
David Collins4 years ago
Everything is all good
John Floren4 years ago
Jesus, does anybody else need to point out that they use Vim? Go back to the Ubuntu forums.+3
Norma Nichols4 years ago
Can U just it
Elías David4 years ago
Uhhh... +Howard Pepper haters gonna hate :P with you with Vim! 
Scott Ricketts4 years ago
vi or DIE!
Translated from German|Original
Peter Bognar4 years ago
You know Google Plus is a den of geeks when a post by Linus Torvalds becomes a hot item...+6
Dan Zubey4 years ago
joe (wordstar) FTW!+5
Translated from Dutch|Original
Norma Nichols4 years ago
Hey! What do I do very confuse
Kalle Hallivuori4 years ago
Bah, never mind all those obsolete "modern" editors. Use a post-modern editor: write all your code in web browser text fields. It will be deconstructed into DOM elements and backed up in the cloud!+3
Norma Nichols4 years ago
Can get to U when from supper.
Erik Buttram4 years ago
+ 1 for using 'murricans and utf-8 in the same sentence. That said, I've never used uemacs, and from the sounds of it, I never should. The satanic vim works for me!+1
Grant Izmirlian4 years ago
I downloaded, compiled and tested 'em' from your link.  Then just to see how crappy my emacs is that came standard with open Suse 12.1, I opened up UTF-8-demo.txt in emacs.  WAIT--it looks perfect and runs on X so I don't get it--what's the point?

Oh-- I get it -- its minimal and runs on an tty terminal without X -- ?
I usually like doing everything in an X-term
Brian Serviss4 years ago
+Kalle Hallivuori there are a few web app coding solutions. One I'm watching is Orion, related to Eclipse, which does seem to offer a cloud based solution.
Gee Weebens4 years ago
1. Uppercase letters and lowercase letters are not the same thing.
2. The straight bracket and the curved bracket are not the same.
3. My searches are case sensitive because files such as MP3s and such have names with white spaces in them while the ones I create do not.
4. I write in English, Castilan, and Portuguese. I have use for multiple characters that the average "murrican" does not.
5. Math requires certain symbols that cannot be substituted. One cannot use brackets where a set of parentheses should be and expect the answer to be right. I am aware that programming follows the same rules.
6. Due to different accent marks causing different sounds to be represented, you cannot expect an "a" with a tilde to have the same sound as an "a" with a circumflex and be in your right mind.
7. You being Linus Torvalds the programmer is one thing. You're good at that. You being Linus Torvalds the English grammar advisor is a piss poor choice especially when your statements further support the growing trend of accepted illiteracy in Western culture.

Completely off topic just to see if you read comments:

Have you ever set up and used any BSD system on any hardware?
René Navarro4 years ago
okay :C
Hao Lü4 years ago
+Linus Torvalds It doesn't have undo mechanism? Your fingers are not changing, but you never want the "undo" function? Really curious how you managed to do that...+1
Anil C Raghuramu4 years ago
How is uemacs different from normal emacs?+1
Ronald Czik4 years ago
Mike Barton4 years ago
My problem lies in windows. I constantly throw Linux commands at it then remember its windows only to try and open vim in it. Yes, I know.... Ewww windows, but I've finished my Linux and data center classes. Too bad the rest of the college hasn't discovered Linux yet.+1
What are using real programmers
Linus Torvalds4 years ago
+Hao Lü: I don't make mistaeks.+38
Me in the Windows command prompt:
Trey K4 years ago
So your a robot?+1
Lars Bjerregaard4 years ago
Heh, I know what you mean about not being able to kick the habit Linus. Back in the good old DOS days, when I discovered Norton Commander I was hooked. It really was the only sane way to do filemanagement. It's a habit I can't kick, and now it's Total Commander at work (Windows) and Krusader on my home Linux box. There's no way around it, everything else just sucks too hard for my fingers. One can only surrender. When my colleagues see me working the filesystem, they can't believe their eyes; my fingers are literally faster than your eye can track the files and directories flying by. I'm never going to be remotely as efficient with anything that is not a twin-panel filemanager.
Sir, am really starting to like you, you definately the man, I am really young in programming, but what I'm liking nowadays in urself is your way of saying things.
Niklas Schnelle4 years ago
+Mike Barton it's interesting how the colleges seem to diverge especially when considering international differences.
I'm at the University of Stuttgart Germany and in the Computer Science department Linux got 99% of the computer pools (there is Windows but no one uses it) and about 60% of the students use it.
With Arch Linux aproaching 40% of the distro "market" probably in the same range are Ubuntu and Linux Mint with anything else far behind.
I wonder what people at other CS departments around the world are seeing
Herman Resto4 years ago
Nano - Nano+2
Translated from Albanian|Original
Alex Boyce4 years ago
I'm a vim guy but have been known to use nano from time to time. Love me my vim though
Nick Phillips4 years ago
Happy coincidence. I was just thinking about uEmacs for the Raspberry Pi last night...+1
Although I will admit to nano being far easier to use, I like console VI better, it has all the tools I really use with a very simple to understand :command syntax.
Luis Rodrigues4 years ago
I use Joe editor too many years now.....+5
J.J. kee4 years ago
You know what Linus, as concerned you seem to be, I honestly don't give a crap on a cracker. But hanks for filling up space on my profile. I really appreciate it.
Does this uemacs/Pk have tetris?
Zachary Bittner4 years ago
if emacs is the tool of the devil.
is uEmacs/PK a tool of a lesser demon?
Just trying to keep my daemonology updated.
Brandon Golway4 years ago
I've tried to learn Vim but I just can't get the hang of it and don't have the patience and dedication to actually force myself to learn it, so just like +Herman Resto I stick with nano :D+1
u are wierd
Steve White4 years ago
vi/vim FTW. I wish browsers had VI command set plugins. ;D
Danijel -4 years ago
Back in my day....etc...+2
Paul Wayper4 years ago
Or just retrain your fingers.  They learn new things every day.
stephane matis4 years ago
vi.  not nvi, not vim.  vi.+1
Greg Whiteley4 years ago
The worst bit is getting the occasional case of "emacs-fingers" - where all the chords and key-combinations start accumulating out-by-one errors until you have to reset your fingers by hammering "Ctrl-G" and "Ctrl-]" for a bit until you're definitely back at the start.

Then you take a deep breath and start over.
What's wrong with emacs? ._.+2
Sarah Vessels4 years ago
There's always gvim... ;)
Larry Olson4 years ago
I used emacs for a couple of years, moved on when GUI programmer editors emerged, and have not thought about it since.
Jonathan Ballard4 years ago
I read the argument between if we should sort on the database side or on the web-page side, supposedly the cloud solution, brought other unspoken weight to the table. Consider how often that got reversed engineered, one way, then the other way, then back the other way, and so-on.

That puts more weight to forward engineer from... RFC for rsh(1)://site.url/NaCl/cmd?query history.

That space is (utf8) hard-coded between the query history, so that may affect arg[0] in main(). +Linus Torvalds 

I like to put "wip" in there for the query, so it softly overrides lower transaction provisions. That allows some systemic freedom.
Colin Griffith4 years ago
+Jonathan Ballard, what are you talking about?
Jonathan Ballard4 years ago
+Colin Griffith The comprehension is restricted.
Terry Poulin4 years ago
Nice to see, didn't realize there was a git now're days. And people can have my editor when they pray it from my computers cold dead bit stream.+1
Dan Calloway4 years ago
Nice to make your acquaintance in cyberspace, Linus. I am using Kubuntu Linux 12.04 LTS while creating this comment. I have been a big Linux fan for decades. My mantra is "Open Source Matters." Have a nice day.
Tim Landers4 years ago
+Paul Wayper I agree.  I switched to Dvorak after 22 years of QWERTY and surpassed my old speed in two weeks (easier on the hands too).  All those "intuitive" editing keybinds, like movement?  Yeah, not so intuitive outside of QWERTY.  Instead of remapping EVERYTHING (cascade effect) I just ditched Emacs.  I'm developing an indie game, which is secretly an excuse to build a cross platform 3D dev toolchain (including editor).  At first I just made a terminal emulator and ran an editor in it, but now I have so many features I like in my own editor it pains me to use anything else -- I never realized how limited the old editors were due to the myriad of features I didn't use but had to work around.  I'm glad I got to start over from scratch...  I write 16% more SLoC now.
Which ever editor you've used the most is the editor of your heart, be that an emacs variety, a vi(m) variety, some guified text editor or what. I remember the wordstar-esque editor of Turbo Pascal 3 that I used for one of my programming courses, DOS's edlin, and subsequent EDIT.  One dear friend tried teaching me C programming under a TTY connection to a UNIX server using emacs, another taught me vim for manipulating config files a Linux server years later.  I'm not a hardcore programmer, or my fingers would be trained in the ways of just one editor, instead I inefficiently stumble through many different editors depending on what my client requires.  {My father still "accidentally" utilizes his WordPerfect keystrokes ...}+2
Alex Hart4 years ago
Gotta say, been using vim for several years, I'll stick with that.  A guy at work uses emacs but he also has octopus for hands.
Don Orr4 years ago
ee is easy, gedit is pretty, vim is powerful, UTF8 is universal.
[Emacs on AIX : "The tool of the devil" on the operating system from the universe where Spock has a beard.]
Jonathan Ballard4 years ago
Re: "accidentally"

That's why I put some thought (synopsis) into the difference in... RFC for rsh(1)://site.url/NaCl/cmd?query

...and ipv6://site.url/NaCl/cmd?query.
Justin Foreman4 years ago
I'm pretty sure Vim is winning this contest, which it appears to have become. Vim for life!
Ananda Tassar4 years ago
Anyone know how I can get these messages to stop appearing on Google+ homepage?  I disabled everything I can find yet still am unable to.
Henry Wolf4 years ago
That's google. No privacy, no choice. +1
Olivia Hanna4 years ago
Gary Dean4 years ago
i stick with joe. does no-one these days care about wordstar-compatibility?? well, i do.+6
David Dreggors4 years ago
I have been hooked on vi(m) since the start. Oh I won't claim it's the best but editors that just start inserting characters before I hit INS or don't save and exit but instead place a :wq in my file leave me angry lol
Daniel F. Smith4 years ago
I use joe in its jmacs form (emacs key bindings.)

Hey!  Why are you guys looking at me funny?  It makes perfect sense.  Joe is a great lightweight editor, and if I can't find it on a system then I can switch to emacs with only slight pain.  If only vi* is installed, then joe is easy to compile....
Tomas O'Brien4 years ago
Why use emacs or VI? Nano is so much easier.+2
David Millians4 years ago
Man, I just have the hassle of loading up keystroke changes for every editor I use- I learned Wordstar keystrokes back in the day, and it's muscle memory now.
/qedit ftw. But vi isn't bad.
Glenn Snead4 years ago
vi is everywhere you find *nix and OSX.  Knowing vi is very useful.+2
David Trombly4 years ago
Vim is all I use!!+2
Peter Schmidt4 years ago
emacs is the tool of the devil because he wants to feel like God+2
Daniel Stubbs4 years ago
I have no idea what you are talking about, so I can only assume you know what you're doing!  :)+1
Michael Pitcher4 years ago
My fingers do know how to type. My brain doesn't
Norman M.4 years ago
Smooth flow of thoughts to the machine is important for techies. New keyboard can slow down the process unless... new editor can increase thought flow more than 10 folds.
Michael Scotland4 years ago
I use 'vi' all day !!!!+1
Norman M.4 years ago
With emacs, I can change any single bit on the hard disk all by itself, and it has built-in elisp... the possibilities are limitless.+3
David Petersheim4 years ago
Vim everywhere. Props to emacs.
Arun Kumar4 years ago
Vi for ever... :)
Frank DeMarco4 years ago
Ha-ha-ha!  Personal history can be a big influence in editor selection.  I learned UNIX via a teletype terminal and all course work had to be done with ed (the line editor).  Once I _advanced_ to a dumb terminal, access to vi was like living in a sci-fi story.  :-)  And in typical UNIX tradition, all of my ed commands still worked in vi -  thus cutting my learning curve.

Thanks to Bill Joy for one of his earlier contributions.  :-)
Thomas Buckley4 years ago
When working in Windows, it's Notepad++ all day long. In Linux, I started with gedit but found vim easier overall.
==== MicroEMACS 3.12 L:1 C:1 () == main ==================================================
Viktor Toth4 years ago
"My fingers know what they know, and aren't changing"... Aren't you afraid you're prematurely turning into a grumpy old man, Linus?
Warren Postma4 years ago
That's so quirky and awesome.   I briefly loved Jedit, but VIM is the one true editor. All others begone from my sight.+1
Peter Speckmayer4 years ago
The most basic question concerning an editor is if there is the butterfly command available. (M-x butterfly for the emacers out there).+1
Hemish Kapadia4 years ago
I love Kate but when there isn't a choice it's vi. It's almost always present, gets the job done
rick allard4 years ago
Matthew Stobbs4 years ago
Use vim for nearly everything, but I'll try anything once.
+Matt Pharoah You should checkout Sublime Text 2. You can install new packages (such as various linters), and it works on Linux, PC, and Mac. Best editor I've used.+3
Also +Matt Pharoah, it has a "vintage" mode that makes it act like vim.+1
I said "'murrican" the other day, and a friend said "you know what a 'merkin' is, don't you??"

Google it. NSFW.
chris deboy4 years ago
what about ed, or cat, or a steady hand and a magnetized needle?
Adam Shea4 years ago
Say what you will.  When you learn in a modal editor (LED on DOS 2.1) your brain just can't manage 4-chording keystrokes to make the emacsen work.  Also vi[m] users can still use ed when their terminal gets hosed.+1
Martin Wohlert4 years ago
I'm simply using geany for X and nano for cli. Works great in all cases.
Aaron Smith4 years ago
vim ftw+3
The thing I can't stand is the idiotic laptop makers that move my CTRL & ALT keys.+2
Anders Jackson4 years ago
I have learned enough vi to edit the make file to compile emacs and start being productive. And with the introduction of configure, I did't even hade to do that.
But still, some simple vi commands are there. But Emacs commands are logical, even when you change keyboards. Which vi isn't. WordStar was as bad as vi in this respect. No, the commands in Emacs is abstracted up one level from the physical keyboard. Which is good. Yes, and they also work in bash and other shells. ;-)
Ben Zoet4 years ago
One word: edlin.
What really gets me here is this: as a software engineer, I got so convinced of Eclipse-style automated refactoring in recent years that I can hardly believe nobody mentions this here. Do C/C++ programmers not do that kind of stuff? (I hope this question is not my social death :)+1
Martin Sugioarto4 years ago
+Anders Jackson ... interesting. I find the vim commands more logical. Usually you don't even need to look them up, because they are quite intuitive.+1
Bart Lantz4 years ago
right on! vim:q rocks!
Franz Brummer4 years ago
Just want to throw in Sublime Text for some diversity. Yes I know it's not free. But it's worh every cent imho. Still good to know vi on the cli.
Gabriele Zappi4 years ago
most of times still using vim. No particular problems with foreign chars.+1
Joel Brunenberg4 years ago
I was too young for the "decades" you are talking about, Mr Torvalds, but I am stuck to vi on a german keyboard (don't know about the Finnish and differences) - as +Anders Jackson already said, its sometimes cruel. But yet it works and a lot of code comes out of my sessions. Writing a lot of Tcl Code with a lot of braces (yes, someone still loves Tcl ;)) its even more cruel... but yet I like it. Sometimes we are so used to the pain, that we do not feel it anymore - I wonder if getting used to another editor would hurt more than subconsciously coping with the old one. +1
Another vim user here, so accustomed to the ESC habit that many times I mistakenly close popup windows :D
I won't try uEmacs though...even if I'm tempted.
renas boy4 years ago
Very nice keep up with the good work!
Vesa Kaihlavirta4 years ago
Quit whining, man, and just use Emacs.+2
Gary Dillon4 years ago
Still using Vim myself, never could get on with emacs, the keyboard commands always seemed to fall out of my head. Ctrl a + Ctrl b always seemed a lot to remember :P

Also like the vi command line option, very handy!
Peter Shannon4 years ago
Vim user through and through but it's just as crusty as GNU emacs.+1
Gabriele Lanaro4 years ago
Real programmers use butterflies+2
VI VI VI - the editor of the beast... Sure right! You are a beast raging true code with it. Nothing beats Vi.+2
Anders Jackson4 years ago
+Martin Sugioarto what is logical with h, j, k and l? C-p C-n C-f C-b has some logic as previous next forward back. But yes, you could learn that the command keys for vi lay on a row on a american qwerty-keyboard. And as long as you never change from that. I do though...
Martin Sugioarto4 years ago
Mm..... I was rather talking about the key combos. Every vim user can instantly tell you how to produce a certain effect on the edited text. Form example if you need to have a 10x10 rectangle of "1"s or if you need to sort some lines or format a block of text etc. You don't need a manual for this, even in the case if you have never done it before.
Nick Phillips4 years ago
+Alan Cox Can AberMUD handle UTF8 yet?
Dave Muller4 years ago
Would I be flamed if I said I like Visual Studio and Netbeans? The only other editor I can remotely stand is VIM.
Thanks for the link.
Edward Cree4 years ago
There's another side-effect of Scandiwegia's repurposing of { | }, namely IRC's casemapping (RFC1459 style).  Because IRC was invented by a Scandiwegian, IRC servers everywhere agree with Linus that '{' and '[' case-insensitive-compare equal.

/me waits for the day that IRC adopts UTF-8, so that all those furriners can have furriner characters in their nicknames.  /me is likely to be waiting for a long time...
Jacob Jarick4 years ago

'MURRICA !!!!!!
Roland Orre4 years ago
Great, now there is yet another uemacs user, and it's amazingly small compared to e.g. zile and nano (i.e. 119k) were both zile(245k) and nano(184k) have weird keys.
I haven't used uemacs since middle 80-ies on my Amiga.
However, I have to do "stty raw" otherwise search and save locks it.
No parenthesis matching though, but that is basically only needed when I program in lisp/scheme (then I use that big evil one... ;)
I can also recommend a web-browser I accidentally found yesterday on my system (seems to be default in Wheezy or grml's wheezy), uzbl it's exactly that type of browser I've looked for a long time, complete freedom in key defines, based upon webkit, interface in python and connects with either sockets or fifo to your application.
And robust, each window a separate process.
It still has some slight problems with e.g. facebook and google+ as well as ssl, but clearly a step in the right direction. This is also the reason I run fluxbox as GUI, very simple, very easy to customize.
Terry Poulin4 years ago
+Anders Jackson H,J,K,L are as logical as using cursor keys and in fact were the cursor keys on the terminal vi was developed on. What makes it logical how ever is how the various keys can be combined together, and that choice of keymaps work together and generally consistently. In much the same way that emacs various commands "Grow" up the chain.

If you use VIM enough, you will eventually be able to guess the keystrokes for stuff. I dunno if that holds true to emacs. But both GNU Emacs and VIM sadly have the occasional wart, like 'Y' being 'yy' instead of 'y$', when 'D' is 'd$' - but those tend to be small and few in between. The 'Y' one specifically is reverse compatibility with antique vi.
Terry Poulin4 years ago
+Carsten Führmann in my experience (since '05 or '06), in C/C++ it is not so necessary and the larger brothers from the editor war (vim/gnu emacs) have tools to help with the occasions. The only language where I have seen it possible that something like Eclipse could be worth more than the editing proficiency lossage, is for JAVA.

Even then, I would rather just write a program to automate managing the imports---or better yet Google it, 'cuz there are probably 3 of them.
Abuhab Lorenzo4 years ago
I really like Sublime Text 2, I don't feel it would be too hard to adjust to that.
+Terry Poulin Thanks for the info, that was illuminating! For commercial work, my company uses .Net/Visual Studio, and in that kind of environment large-scale assisted refactoring is taken for granted. Anyway, I think it's great to fight architectural mistakes. Naively, I thought that insight was language independent, but apparently it is not.
Terry Poulin4 years ago
+Carsten Führmann VS is probably the best IDE I've ever used, but the hefty tools issue is not really language independent IMHO. Languages differ and so do tools, both in availability and necessity.

In C/C++, my want is for something like Maven and people to really use the damn thing so thoroughly. In every language, typically I just scream a blue streak at the pain in the ass of making cross platform projects 'build' properly. groan

Where I work, we're mostly allowed to use whatever with regards to that. Not sure what the newer people wield but in this team, most do use Emacs or VIM. Ironically years ago, I chose XEmacs because console VIM was too confusing and I refused to learn a new IDE for each language and demanded it work on most OSes easily. Eventually a tutorial on basic vi usage made me mutter "Logical" all the way to my best friend after `ls`.
Peter Teuben4 years ago
Great!   I've been a micro-emacs user, mostly because at the time (mid or late 80s) it would allow me to edit on VMS, the occasional DOS, Sun and 3b1. I still use it on linux now, but it's been hard to find one that compiles, and has some keystroke issues. Looking forward to the compile!
Roland Orre4 years ago
+Terry Poulin I find emacs keys very intuitive.
Ctrl-E E nd of line
Meta-E E nd of paragraph
Ctrl-B B ackward char
Meta-B B ackward word
Ctrl-P P revious line 
Meta-P (could have been P revious something else, you are free)
Ctrl-N N next line
Ctrl-A beginning of the A lphabet (which fits in one line)
Meta-A bigger beginning, i.e paragraph
Ctrl-K K ill to end of line 
Meta-K K to end of sentence.
Ctrl-T T ranspose character position.
Meta-T T ranspose word position.
and so on..

Regarding vi I have never used it apart from accidentally, and thus learned the command I needed ::q
About that web-browser uzbl, that has actually a sane combination of the vi and emacs functionality. When you are editing a field, like this, then you can switch to command mode, like in vi, and then back to edit mode again. So, uzbl combines the emacs logics, with unix logics, with vi logics  in a consistent way :-)

PS. and I do not like context dependent markup languages... I had to edit my bold faced characters...
Dan Mashal4 years ago
BitchX still uses ANSI. Any tips on how to convert the output to UTF-8? 

I mean is it even possible? The client is full of ANSI art and I have to set my gnome terminal client to use IBM850 encoding in order to get the client to look semi decent.
David Voňka4 years ago
I can't imagine to work productively without my IDE. But I work in  Java, which, as I learned from a bunch of real-time Linux developers visiting Prague, is a work of devil too :). Actually, I escaped crucifixion by a narrow margin after mentioning Java. Still, the IDE manages all the imports, keeps pre-compiling the code, looking for problems, the code suggestions are way better than anything I could get in Vim. But I do like vim for other type of text (yeah, another devilish tool, I know ...)+1
Roland Orre4 years ago
The only really efficient IDE I've tried +David Voňka was TurboC in DOS in late 80-ies (I was the first one who had a laptop at that workplace). I have had a few MSc students that have used Eclipse and I tried it as well, but it didn't help me, it was too complicated, and I couldn't really see how I could fit emacs into Eclipse, which had its own editing keys and required some effort to change, not worth it.
I've also tried the xxgdb interface but I find it to be more limiting than simplify things.
And... regarding kernel code as +Linus Torvalds works with I suspect that there is no IDE in the world that could be of much help.

+Dan Mashal I have no experience with BitchX, but if it is written in a reasonable way it is trivial to change it to use UTF-16 or UTF-32 as it implies constant space per character. Then for transfer, you just convert to UTF-8 on the fly, this is how e.g. python works, this is how web servers work. It takes more memory, but makes the implementation very simple.
Martin Sugioarto4 years ago
ITT: emacs users talk about trivial key mappings, vim users talk about complex editing tasks.
I think its really depend on the case which editor is the best.

If you need to change a config file vi / vim is fast and the view and editor mode makes sure you don't destroy something by mistake. I also saw some servers which have only vim installed.

Emacs is fine if you want a bigger editor with advance scripting and if you have the time to learn all features, short cuts.

But if you are a web developer a IDE would be the best for you like eclipse or aptana studio.
Which help you a lot and can save a lot of time because of the automation (auto format, builtin git, sorted structer, implemented debugger, ...)

Aptana Studio is also working fine on my Netbook so don't need so much resources.

So I love vim (fast and simple) but prefer a IDE editor for my projects.
Roland Orre4 years ago
+Martin Sugioarto it isn't trivial to remap keys (despite it should) in most applications, and regarding complex editing tasks, I do not know what capabilities vi/vim has neither what extension language it has.
However, I find that it's quite rarely I have to write some lisp code, as most complex, but trivial editing tasks can be solved with simple key macros, template mode or the graphical mode, but it's only macros which are really really essential, and the simple key macro mode in uemacs works similarly as in the big emacs. Macros I use 10-100 times a day. Then combine that with the multiplier key, that is Ctrl-U
and there is not much limits what complex tasks you can do.

if you want to do a complex but repeated editing around every occurance of e.g.  _transmogrify_ and when you count the numbers of transmogrify  [ in GNU Emacs just (how-many "transmogrify") Ctrl-X Ctrl-E] then you get the answer like 24567, when you write your macro, starting with Ctrl-X( and finishes with Ctrl-X), and then
type either Ctrl-U24567Ctrl-X E
or Ctrl-U Ctrl-U Ctrl-U Ctrl-U Ctrl-U Ctrl-U Ctrl-U Ctrl-U Ctrl-X E
if you prefer that :-) (each Ctrl-U multiplies with 4)
where the latter imples 65536 occurances, but macro execution terminates on search miss, so you are safe.

Regarding Ctrl-X E I consider that sequence too long, so I have had it tied to Ctrl-Z since early 80-ies, first Emacs I used was Multics Emacs implemented in MacLisp when I started working at ABB.
I quickly learned to program MacLisp but found that macros were often enough and there were people coming to thank me, that my little this or that had saved them weeks of tedious work :) that is what a real editor can do.
They were also developing tools for field maintenance there, and those tools were based upon two fundamental things,
a LISP implemented in Pascal, and Amis (which is an emacs like editor developed by the computer club Stacken in Stockholm).
Amis is an acronym and stands for "anti misery", that is if you do not have an emacs style of editor avialable it is misery.
Similar with LISP as you certainly know Greenpun's tenth rule of programming:
Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp.

The lack of real lists, is also what I miss in python, but apart from that python is very nice, but I prefer the mix of python, scheme and C, all suitable for different tasks in different way, then you may have need for non-imperative programming like in prolog occasionally, but those are available as library extensions to all.
James McClain4 years ago
If not uEmacs, what do you suggest people learn when starting, Linus. 
Todor Gyumyushev4 years ago
Kate - best editor
This uEmacs editor looks pretty interesting.
And fast. And small.
At least I don't need to dig into tons of Lisp code and manuals to configure the editor according to my requirements.
Martin Sugioarto4 years ago
+Roland Orre , vim has an own scripting language which is based on Ex commands. For most tasks, you won't need to script.
Roland Orre4 years ago
+Рено Гринлиф you said "I don't need to dig into tons of Lisp code and manuals to configure the editor according to my requirements."
well without configuration GNUemacs and uEmacs are basically identical so I guess you mean that you have no choice than to satisfy with what is served...
+Todor Gyumyushev you mentioned kate, I have tested that but had huge problems doing any kind of configuration with it (as I tried kmail for a while) but I never succeded to define Ctrl-K as kill-to-end-of-line
and I couldn't find any keyboard macro either, and no multiplier key.

Ctrl-K is a very good test, because it's something I simply can not live without but I have  been able to emulate it in some environments by defining it as Mark, End, Cut
Then keyboard macros are so fundamental that an editor without keyboard macros is not an editor.

One of the really great functions in GNUemacs though is that you can at any place you are in any text execute a lisp function, like I exemplified above with (how-many "transmogrify") Ctrl-X Ctrl-E
It is also very powerful when you want to make a simple calculation like:
(insert (format "%s" (+
1237.42 ;ditten
8910.11 ;datten
)))Ctrl-X Ctrl-E
which gives you the following in the buffer
(insert (format "%s" (+
1237.42 ;ditten
8910.11 ;datten
Daniel Heath4 years ago
I have been an xemacs user for over 15 years now, and have recently started developing on Windows and OS X.  I'm really starting to believe we need a new great editor.  Vi and emacs don't work well in the limited windowing environments outside of Linux and they don't have the coding help provided by other editors.  However, the other editors are clumsy, very clumsy.  We need something that allows our thoughts to flow to our code.  Emacs was very good at that, so was vi. No holy war between the two best. :-)  We need something that is open source, can handle limited windowing environments, naively handle complex key bindings, access context information from multiple sources while not getting in the way, and work at the directory tree level (not the file level).+1
Riccardo Ressi4 years ago
Don't worry guys soon will use eye bulb instead of the mouse and the voice to dictate our code lines. So we may consider instead to made the C/C++ language more pronunciable... ;-)
So I just tried uemacs/PK... here are my thoughts:

* Lacks documentation
* Not sure how to get / setup a python-mode
* No syntax highlighting.. I like some candy

So I guess I'll stick with the tool of the devil for now :)
Simon Skolik4 years ago
I love vim. Very often I try to save my documents with :w when I'm using MS Word at work. XD+2
Garry Cairns4 years ago
+Simon Skolik I solved this problem by installing vim at work. My MS Word workflow now consists of "+p Ctrl-s
Tomas O'Brien4 years ago
Psh! You can even use run Nano in android! Sounds like a winner to me.
Roland Orre4 years ago
+Daniel Heath why should we bother about Windows? Its' a dead OS. Apart from that Emacs is excellent on Windows, when I held a Java course a few years ago the students used Emacs as only tool (OK some tried with Eclipse also and liked it) but there was some students that worked on Windows instead of Linux (they were all used to both) and they loved Emacs on Windows. AFAIK Emacs is the only editor which has a decent behavior on Windows. The only editor which supports drop. That is you can just grab a file in a catalog and drop it on the editor and it opens. Occasionally when I've been confronted with a Windows machine I have tried to do the same thing with e.g. MS Word... resulting in an ICON of the file to be put in place instead of the actual file :-) Clearly a non-intuitive behavior.

GNU Emacs is afaik also the only program on windows which has a decent installation procedure, just put the tree where you want it and click "addpm" (which sets a few register data) and ready!

Another insane behavior among many programs, e.g. OpenOffice and Inkscape is that they do not save a file in the same directory as it was opened... when started from the commandline, as I usually do.
I was furious and shouted loudly when an MSc student had implemented a program like that, he fixed it quickly ;-)
I suspect that this insanity is a behavior contaminated from braindead Windows programs.
Emacs does it the intuitive way, that is bother about which directory it is started from and bother about which directory each buffer is opened from. Emacs behavior is to decrease unnecessary work, we programmers do not like to do non-intuitive tedious things.
Sam Watkins4 years ago
Thanks for the editor, I will start using it. +Linus Torvalds  I wish you would / could stop using that other tool of the devil, the GPL.  GPL(x) != free!
Roland Orre4 years ago
Sorry +Daniel Heath , I now also realize that I may have misunderstood you. This uEmacs works equally well in DOS, Ultrix, VMS, BSD, SunOS, as well as any Linux system (I was speaking about GNU emacs earlier on Windows).

And thanks again +Linus Torvalds this uEmacs editor is fantastic!
It is a piece of art, and it has a fantastic documentation. Basically it has everything as GNU Emacs except lisp, instead it has a python like scripting language with functions and can store macros as scripts. .
+Benoit Clennett-Sirois did you check the doucuments and emacs.hlp ?
OK, I can not tell if you can easily make a python mode using this scripting language, but if it was possible to make modes using the weird TECO language in the original emacs then I assume it may be possible also here. Apart from it is impossible to make a python mode in any environment, as the language uses whitespace syntax... The best thing the mode can do, if not internally transform it to lambda calculus and you work on the tree instead of the text, for you is to guess, if you accidentally presses tab and indents one line in python differently it may change the behavior completely, 
However, you can run external commands on your buffer, so you can easily implement a python mode externally using for instance python or scheme.

So, if GNU Emacs is common lisp, then uEmacs is scheme :-)
The swiss army knife of programming.
David Jacobs4 years ago
Translated from Haitian Creole|Original
Roland Orre4 years ago
stty -ixon
of course, not stty raw as I proposed...
Reshared with summary here:
Steven Ness4 years ago
Have you tried the settings menu?+1
Roland Orre4 years ago
+Sam Watkins Sorry, but your claim is flawed! 
There is no freedom, only different types of constraints!
GPL guarantees that developers' effort can not be abused by constraints introduced by someone playing an evil proprietary God!
I just forked GPL into Generic Pitchfork Licence I'll illustrate it later with a few pictures of different types of pitchforks.
Comments are welcome!
simon harrison4 years ago
Has  nobody mentioned notepad yet? It comes free with Windows. It's really good.
Daemon Dedalus4 years ago
Roland Orre4 years ago
+Stephen Mills I commented about nano above (weird keys),
but apart from being an abuse of the word "nano" (which my forked gpl into genericpitchforklicence above is about in the long term)
(i.e. nano assembers).
Compared to micro emacs as we talked about:
OBS add AFAIK to all below, please correct me if I'm wrong!
1. nano has weird key definitions, not compatible with anyone's spine.
2. nano has a very small subset of uEmacs functionality.
3. nano (184K) is bigger than uEmacs (119K).
4. according the very sparse nano doc (where uEmacs has ha a great booklet, plus cheat sheet) is only a small cheat sheet:
a: nano is autistic , can not redefine keys.
b: nano is braindead , has no keyboard macros
c: nano is clueless , no regexp search
d: nano is documentationless , only a small cheat sheet.
e: nano is extensionless , no extension nor script language.
f: nano is functionless , no callable functions.
g: nano is gadgetless , no bells and whistles through pipes or fifos.
h: nano is horrible , it's like using a hacksaw when you need a scalpel.
i: nano is irrelevant, as it is not "nano" something like "micro" is.
j: nano is jagged, no consistent thought train behind.
k: nano is kill-to-end-of-line-less , when I press C-K it kills the whole.
l: nano is lame due to above mentioned limitations.
m: nano is a stupid mocking-bird, like mock-lisp or microsoft.
n: nano is an abusive use of a precious word "nano".
o: nano is openmindedless , due to above obvious reasons.
p: nano is preposterous , due to above absurdities.
q: nano is questionable , as e.g. uEmacs is less and does more.
r: nano is racist, due to all constraints.
s: nano is sabotage , of a nice tradition started by TECO Emacs.
t: nano is trivial , thus annoying, when I need a tool.
u: nano is an UFO, unidentified fucking obscurity .
v: nano is variableless , and not even vi, for those who prefer.
x: nano is xenophobia , against a nice intuitive tradition.
z: nano is a zeroizing attempt by zealots to create zoombies .

Regarding notepad as you mentioned +simon harrison I hope you were joking, otherwise you are a troll. You said:
"It comes free with Windows. It's really good."

Which is a completely oxymoronic statement:
"Free" is abused as you are not free to run it on any platform of your choice, it is "gratis" but not "free", to be able to use it you have to sell your soul to an evil proprietary God.
"Windows" is a racist platform and a dead OS of that simple reason it is not conformant with intiutive technology and hacker reasoning and it can put constraints upon your doing and limit your freedom.
"Windows" is controlled by an evil God which is taxing people by force. Almost everyone buying any kind of decent computing device has to pay a forced allowance to the Microsoft God, which then gets an even tronger instrument to control and limit your freedom, thus a malevolent loop..
"It's really good." doesn't mean anything if you do not specify "good".
Roland Orre4 years ago
A nice thing with nano though +Stephen Mills is that it is GPL, which uEmacs is not. I do not understand the uEmacs license. It says:
Copyright notices
MicroEMACS 3.9e © Copyright 1987 by Daniel M. Lawrence. Reference Manual Copyright 1987 by Brian Straight and Daniel M. Lawrence. All Rights Reserved. No copyright claimed for modifications made by Petri H. Kutvonen.
Original statement of copying policy
MicroEMACS 3.9e can be copied and distributed freely for any non-commercial purposes. MicroEMACS 3.9e can only be corporated into commercial software with the permission of the current author [Daniel M. Lawrence].

This sounds complicated, I simply do not understand it. What is "commercial software" ? Is Debian commercial? Is Gentoo commercial? Is Ubuntu commercial?

For my own commerce is about trade, and trade is what free software is about. We all who have skills for and interest in programming and good tools for development and programming and thus develop free software and other free stuff, are trading all the time. By giving away our creation we are lifting the community, and the community can then give us something back which we need or like, or make an improvement of what we made, apart from the pure satisfaction of creating or improving something of course.

I noticed that uEmacs was not even listed on Wikipedia

obviously it has to be added there, and if the licence issues can be cleared out, it can also be included on all Live rescue systems instead of nano and zile, which currently are, as GNU emacs is not included on most due to its size and uEmacs has more functionality, is smaller and is more consistent compared to nano and zile.
Roland Orre4 years ago
Sorry, I just noticed that zile has much more functionality than I knew.
Zile has lisp, for all years I have just ignorantly believed that zile was just a slightly more consistent nano, but it seems to be even more powerful than uEmacs (as any editor with lisp will be, as the uEmacs scripting language may not even be Turing complete)
Zile is 245K and as that includes lisp, redefinable keys and macros, functions, multiple windows, multiple buffers then zile is all I need for basic editing. However, it seems not to support unicode yet, so I need both, and the best part, it's GPL :)
Seems as I have to check the zile docs...
Roland Orre4 years ago
+Benoit Clennett-Sirois I think I should recommend the jed editor to you. I read about it in the zile FAQ. It is GPL, and has great support for languages like python, C  and TeX (only ones I tested with now).
It's available in Debian and Ubuntu repositories, and uses the S-Lang for extension, which means that it can also connect to e.g. sql databases.
It is slightly larger than uEmacs and Zile, on my machine it's 341K, but much faster than e.g uEmacs (which is slow due to VT52 emulation I guess). It runs on Unix, VMS, MSDOS, OS/2, BeOS, QNX, and win9X/NT platforms, and it has menues, for those who prefer that. It also has X support, xjed.
and emulates Emacs, EDT, WordStar, Borland, Brief.

So, there are lots of tools available for devils and daemons ;-)
but not so many tools for evil proprietary God players...
Nick Thomas4 years ago
I always wondered what the correct spelling for 'murricans' was. 
I'd like to do a shout-out to everyone who posts to the Vim Tips wiki, as they've helped take my newbie understanding of vi to the next level such that Vim and Gvim are my new best friends for writing code and plain text. There's a lot to be said for the simple tools that give you as much power and configurability as you can handle. As my understanding of Vim improves I'm able to make it do what I want, rather than be limited to whatever an IDE developer has decided is do-able.
+Roland Orre your a-z of nano has made my day. I don't use nano so I can't comment on the accuracy of your opinions but Iove the way you've articulated them.+1
Roland Orre4 years ago
Thanks for your comment +Christopher Hopper 
I find it likely though that some of my nano-flames are wrong.
About your vi/vim the greatest thing with configurability is that everyone can get what he/she likes best.
There is a vi-mode for GNUemacs by the way ;)
Haven't tested it though (as I'm not familiar with vi).
I can just brief from the built in doc:
vi-mode is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `vi.el'.

Major mode that acts like the `vi' editor.
The purpose of this mode is to provide you the combined power of vi (namely, the "cross product" effect of commands and repeat last changes) and Emacs.

This command redefines nearly all keys to look like vi commands.
It records the previous major mode, and any vi command for input
(`i', `a', `s', etc.) switches back to that mode.
Thus, ordinary Emacs (in whatever major mode you had been using) is "input" mode as far as vi is concerned.

To get back into vi from "input" mode, you must issue this command again.
Therefore, it is recommended that you assign it to a key.

Major differences between this mode and real vi :

* Limitations and unsupported features
  - Search patterns with line offset (e.g. /pat/+3 or /pat/z.) are
    not supported.
  - Ex commands are not implemented; try ':' to get some hints.
  - No line undo (i.e. the 'U' command), but multi-undo is a standard feature.

* Modifications
  - The stopping positions for some point motion commands (word boundary, pattern search) are slightly different from standard 'vi'.
    Also, no automatic wrap around at end of buffer for pattern searching.
  - Since changes are done in two steps (deletion then insertion), you need to undo twice to completely undo a change command.  But this is not needed
    for undoing a repeated change command.
  - No need to set/unset 'magic', to search for a string with regular expr
    in it just put a prefix arg for the search commands.  Replace cmds too.
  - ^R is bound to incremental backward search, so use ^L to redraw screen.

* Extensions
  - Some standard (or modified) Emacs commands were integrated, such as incremental search, query replace, transpose objects, and keyboard macros.
  - In command state, ^X links to the 'ctl-x-map', and ESC can be linked to esc-map or set undefined.  These can give you the full power of Emacs.
  - See vi-com-map for those keys that are extensions to standard vi, e.g.
    `vi-name-last-change-or-macro', `vi-verify-spelling', `vi-locate-def',
    `vi-mark-region', and 'vi-quote-words'.  Some of them are quite handy.
  - Use C-x ~ to switch among different modes quickly.

Syntax table and abbrevs while in vi mode remain as they were in Emacs.
Robert Eckman4 years ago
My fingers know what they know too, and they know that navigation should be done in the home row so your fingers never leave it, and commands should all be like :this

Damn furriners and their editors with fancy features.

But seriously, I can't even use anything with the root of emacs at all. I want an editor, not an operating system.
Roland Orre4 years ago
One thing though +Robert Eckman emacs sucks as a web browser, where even web browsers can run an operating systems kernel,
I tested it earlier, but it lacked ethernet devices.
Yuri Albuquerque4 years ago
I hated both vim and emacs at first because of their strange commands (compared to modern editors, such as gedit and Notepad++).

But then I learned that I could edit through SSH directly with emacs, without it installed on the server machine. So I started to try to use it. Really hard. And I'm happy now.

I even installed emacs+ on Eclipse (since I unfortunally work with that demon and useless language called Java).
Robert Eckman4 years ago
+Roland Orre I imagine it would fall somewhere between lynx and a half-retarded dillo. I shiver at the thought of using emacs as a browser. Besides, it might automatically change every occurrence on the web of Linux to GNU/Linux.+1
CSILLAG Tamas4 years ago
I lol'ed reading this. :-)
If you accustomed to something it is hard to change.
Roland Orre4 years ago
I have no problem to adapt to something which is better in some sense +CSILLAG Tamas , as long as that something is adaptable to my preferences as I do not accept despotism ;-)
I have used many different Emacsen over 30 years and still there is simply no better and more intuitive concept (for me). The toughest was when they replaced  Multics with VMS where I worked early 80-ies, as VMS only had something called EDT, but I could quite quickly adapt it to a decent mimic of some emacs functionality, but we were very happy when we got a tape with GNU Emacs for VMS around 1985 I think it was. Then the system was convenient again.
OK, the system also had TECO, so in principle we could have implemented RMS' first emacs but I didn't like the language and there was an explicit warning in the manual something like:
"Do you really want to learn this?", but there was one geek at our place who even could program in TECO :)
Here is an example code, implementing a Brainfuck interpreter in TECO
and the next exampld calcualates pi to arbitrary precision.

So, Lisp is a clear advantage versus TECO and when you master Lisp, all other languages have limitations. For my own looking forward to when I can have the hardware running lisp code directly as the old Explorer chip from Texas, and having the OS implemented as in the Transputer with message passing and concurrency with direct support from the hardware. Here I asked if someone knew if e.g. the current CPUs like Intels' can be microcoded into Lisp
And I had got one link to someone who had made scheme into micro code and scheme, that is my favorite language, like the swiss army knife :-)
even though python has lots of very convenient constructs, but... it doesn't have real lists :(
Yuri Albuquerque4 years ago
+Robert Eckman this is a matter of what you look for in an editor. I don't want to change to the terminal every time I want something done.

Also, about home key, I find it funny when vim defenders talk about it. ESC is not in the home row.

I don't like vim because of this thing of change mode to get things done. I adapted myself better with control and meta keys.
Roland Orre4 years ago
Now I've found the optimal combination of the Jedi power of jed/xjed with the litheness and lightness of µEmacs and zile.
First:   emacs --eval '(server-start)'
then in each window you are (I'm usually in xterm)
emacsclient -nw file1 file2 file3

Then you get the benefits of:
* Able to communicate between all file buffers
  (i.e. modes, variables, new functions, macros)
* Only having one lisp system running, which is more efficient.
* Any time you want a fully framed window you can just:
  (shell-command "emacsclient -nc filename &")

I noticed that if I didn't add & I got some kind of deadlock...
Regarding macros which I mentioned, I consider they behave consistent., i.e. per client.
Regarding multiple files there is one slight modification needed to make "emacsclient -nw file1 file2 file3"
behave as "emacs-nw file1 file2 file3"
that is split the window when multiple files.

What need to be fixed though is the shell mode. It is not intuitive that all clients run the same shell.
I also tried "emacsclient -nw --eval '(vi-mode)' file
but it seems to have struggle with that and due to the deadlock possibility I think emacslient in this form should be seen as experimental.
Roland Orre4 years ago
If you happen to still listen to this thread +Linus Torvalds , despite it has exploded into absurdity...

What do you consider my idea of running the fundamental operating system kernel in scheme?

y the way, when you asked me 1998, when I sent you my Lic-thesis (halfway PhD thesis) whether  "I'm working with artificial intelligence",  I said no then, but you was right. It took me further a couple of years to realize that I actually did work with AI. It was like when I was reading the book "Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid",_Escher,_Bach
in early 80-ies after a friend's recommendation. It was first after over 350 pages (of 777) I realized it was about AI...

When Richard Stallman visited KTH in late 1986 invited by Stacken (computer club) I asked him about Multics, which was a system that I really loved in early 80-ies at ASEA.
RMS considered that it was an attempt to create a lisp machine.

Multics had an advanced ring protection scheme (not the lisp scheme...)
which I consider could be perfectly integrated with an efficient memory management in scheme. Both for file schemes and as memory protection schemes, that is to allocate memory as e..g ultra-fast short (cache register),  fast short (RAM), slow short (file cache), slow long term (data base) etc.

I know that you have been critical against message passing earlier Linus, but I consider message passing to be the intuitive. When I was working at ASEA the OS they developed there for MC68000 CX was based upon message passing (and used in power plants, ship control rooms, nuclear power plants etc). The Amiga which I got 1986 had an operating system AmigaOS, whose kernel Exec, was basically a micro-kernel based upon message passing, it was very efficient and very intuitive.
Now regarding Amiga Exec (as is pointed out on that page) Amiga Exec had flaws, basically due to no MMU, but this was fixable, a friend of mine implemented a memory protection scheme for the Amiga Exec for MC68040. Software which was later supplied when you purchased an Fusion40 accelerator card. Then AmigaOS got rid of all those "guru meditations" :-)

Later in the 80-ies I and a few friends were building Transputer modules to add as co-processors to any PC for arbitrary crunching capability (we named those CLOUD "Computer Lönnerberg Orre Ullén Djurfeldt" ;-) and they were added according a torus topology (due to only 4 links to each CPU). These Transputers implemented Hoare's CSP in their Occam language (an hw supoport).

If one combine:
1. Ring model of memory allocation schemes (speed)
2. Ring model of memory protection schemes (security)
3. Message passing à la Hoare's CSP (simplicity)
4. Lambda calculus as hw language (intuitive+"math")
5. *Invisible background garbage collection*  (efficient+secure)
(as even "telephones" today have multiple cores, like Galaxy-S3 has 4).

Then one obtain a system which is safe, efficient (only one memory allocation scheme), intuitive, and is excellent for implementation of parallelism (which is trivial with Map/Reduce primitives).
And.. it is easy to implement advanced algorithms based upon e.g. syllogistic reasoning (as they require real lists).

I have worked a lot with guile which has grown into a beast :) but was very small and efficient when I started using at Aubrey Jaffer's SCM early 90-ies. Now guile has of some reason never become a big hit. It also run equally well under DOS, Linux, SunOS, AmigaOS.

However, if we consider another popular scheme Racket (formerly with the less erotic name PLT Scheme) there exists syntactic sugar for plenty of languages like:
Python, Java, JavaScript, Prolog, C etc.

This is the system I want!
If the lowest layer is scheme, then there is further no problems with portability, as one, according Greenspun's Tenth rule of programming, need a lisp anyway, whatever you are doing, as it is the most fundamental language, and there are schemes for all architechures. AFAIK the only language which is based upon strict mathematical formalism, and, it has LIST as a fundamental data type, which every sane implementation requires anyway.

(When we did a project work in my MSc program in Uppsala 1977-1981, one task was to implement a preemptive OS kernel for Intel 8080. The first thing I did was to implement a List handing system, to be used for things like scheduling and round robin. The small OS we named MHOS:80 and it was robust... One non-intentional test was when a groups of kids entered the lab and started banging on all the terminals where we were running a micro-shell with a few commands. The system managed fine :-) and the next year they replaced their commercial OS used at the data comm class with ours as ours was easier to use and better documented :)
Amanda S4 years ago
words of gold: "you can now get a shiny new version of the same old cruddy editor". I think it must also come with a shiny new "stay off the grass sign", and perhaps a stick to shake at people ;)
Michael Stilson4 years ago
vim +1+1
Lingxiang Chow4 years ago
Gvim + 1
Pranav Kant3 years ago
I am also more of a vim user, but i also want to be a devil like linus. 
/me switches to emacs from vim. Goodbye vim.
sindi nhlapho3 years ago
hi Lins
Pranav Kant3 years ago
this post is responsible to motivate me to learn emacs and now i love emacs like anything
vi vi vi \m/
Roland Orre3 years ago
There is VI-mode in emacs too (now speaking GNU-emacs)
Yuri Albuquerque3 years ago
+Roland Orre evil-mode, actually. It's a full implementation of vi in Emacs Lisp, and it's great, indeed.
Dear all,
It is time to learn:
GoogleTalksArchive. 7 Habits For Effective Text Editing 2.0
7 Habits For Effective Text Editing 2.0
Roland Orre3 years ago
It seems as we need an emacs  version of that speech :-) +Oscar Núñez Mori
I actually made some such tutorial speaks when I was working at ABB (former ASEA) in the early 80-ies.
We used Multics and Greenberg's MacLisp Emacs. People were coming to thank me sometimes, they had saved weeks of time by learning how to use macros, templates and such.
Of Course :-)+1
Greg Strockbine3 years ago
ed  ->  vi  ->  emacs -> Netbeans/Eclipse

Emacs is my Swiss Army knife, always handy, its the first thing I open.  I always run my shell in emacs.
Roland Orre2 years ago
If you love both emacs and vi +Pankaj Doharey   just do:
Meta-X vi-mode
The big power of emacs is its lisp, even though I'm a scheme programmer, although emacs lisp has a few ui-extensions which simplifies things, but these are mostly procedures which can be implemented in any lisp like environment.
Yuri Albuquerque2 years ago
+Roland Orre evil-mode is better than vi-mode. :)+1
Kishor Kp2 years ago
Kate is really nice one. It has the terminal option attached to it to compile and run the program. So it is good one than vim.
Yuri Albuquerque2 years ago
+Kishor Kp what? Vim also does that.
Kishor Kp2 years ago
I meant vi not vim.
Am I evil? I use GNU Emacs, so yes I am.
Akilan Elango1 year ago
Nano 😉
Kishor Kp1 year ago
Nano is good...
Patrick Kaell1 year ago
I use vi clone Elvis. The last version (2.2.0) is from 2003, but it compiles cleany on every platform I use (even AIX). The code is elegant and much more compact and faster than vim. It even has syntax hightlighting, a build in HTML viewer, hex editor, etc.
James Anderson1 year ago
I have been using gnu/emacs for ages.  Just discovered TRAMP mode and magit git interface.  Both are amazing.  I love how there is so much stuff in emacs that you can still find new things.  and editing the editor while your editing is so next level.  lisp is lovely.

if we are following the spirit of the incendiary provocative Torvalds post.  lets see.  VI is some sort of barbarian banging rocks together trying to make fire.  ghastly.
For the same reason that Linus uses uEmacs (finger memory), I use regular Emacs, with a special "Control-O" keymap a colleague initially set up for me circa 1990. And I need that so badly that when OS X came out without a graphical Emacs, I built what I think was the first graphical port of Emacs on that platform (emacs-on-aqua). So I feel deeply offended that Linus would dare call Emacs the tool of the devil, when it's so obviously the work of a demi-god (and I'm not entirely sure about "demi"). And here is the proof. With most other editors, after 25 years using it, you run out of things to learn. Not with Emacs. There are still new modules and key bindings you did not even know existed. So if you are an old programmer and want to keep your neurons on their toes (whatever that means), use Emacs!
Alan Cox1 month ago
Same reason in part I use joe - wordstar fingers 8)