I highly recommend to read this great evaluation of upstart and systemd and the discussion around it.
For me as an upstream who wants to integrate with systemd it's valuable information. My idea so far is that a Plasma on Wayland shell needs to be brought up by systemd. Especially I consider using socket activation to start the KWin session compositor. That's something I want to discuss in detail with +Àlex Fiestas at the next Plasma sprint and try to prototype the unit files for it. My assumption here is that any system which can run Wayland also uses or provides systemd (BSDs don't run Wayland). As the Wayland shell is new technology depending on new technology I so far do not see a compelling reason to not rely on the awesome technology provided by systemd or to provide multiple implementations.
Of course a legacy startup will still be around to bring up Plasma on X11. So for the BSDs nothing would change. They can start Plasma on X11 without systemd. But everybody on Linux would benefit from using systemd and Wayland.
What about Ubuntu and everybody else who might consider systemd as the tool of evil? Well there is nothing to stop Ubuntu from shipping systemd and to a large part they are already doing it. Whether the init system is used should not be relevant to us.
For me as an upstream who wants to integrate with systemd it's valuable information. My idea so far is that a Plasma on Wayland shell needs to be brought up by systemd. Especially I consider using socket activation to start the KWin session compositor. That's something I want to discuss in detail with +Àlex Fiestas at the next Plasma sprint and try to prototype the unit files for it. My assumption here is that any system which can run Wayland also uses or provides systemd (BSDs don't run Wayland). As the Wayland shell is new technology depending on new technology I so far do not see a compelling reason to not rely on the awesome technology provided by systemd or to provide multiple implementations.
Of course a legacy startup will still be around to bring up Plasma on X11. So for the BSDs nothing would change. They can start Plasma on X11 without systemd. But everybody on Linux would benefit from using systemd and Wayland.
What about Ubuntu and everybody else who might consider systemd as the tool of evil? Well there is nothing to stop Ubuntu from shipping systemd and to a large part they are already doing it. Whether the init system is used should not be relevant to us.
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+Martin Gräßlin "it would not force anyone to use systemd as the init system. It forces to use parts of systemd, but one can still use openrc or sysVinit as the init system. It's important to separate those things."
I am heavily confident that to use systemd as a session init (as you describe) requires that systemd is PID1. Please double check before requiring systemd for kde's session on Wayland. Edit: yes, it will req that systemd is PID 1. Just confirmed with someone on #systemd.Jan 1, 2014
+Stefan Betz Those just need to be implemented, the basic infrastructure is already there. IPv6 and UDP should be especially easy.Jan 1, 2014
+Cameron Norman About Wayland, you say that it is not a "linux only thing", but reading the architecture page, it seems that, instead of X, Wayland takes advantage about all the interfaces and features provided by the Linux kernel in order to avoid to reproduce existing stuff again and stay only on their competencies .
So Wayland taken that decision despite that some Linux features are (were?) Linux-only.
Isn't true that Wayland is a Linux only thing until someone port that Linux's features (KMS?) to other kernel also?
Is this not the same for Kwin or Gnome? They want some features and that features existing right now, but at the moment some of them are systemd-only. Like KMS until its port.
Seems the same song, then "enjoy to port" seems be the answer.Jan 1, 2014
Wayland does not depend on KMS, and never will. Weston depends on KMS, but a Wayland compositor can use any type of driver or mode setting API.
Nevertheless, KMS has been ported to OpenBSD and FreeBSD, so Mutter and KWin should technically be able to run on *BSD.Jan 1, 2014
+Cameron Norman You are right, Wayland is the protocol. It's my bad habit to call the protocol and its C implementation under the same name.
So, coming back to the problem, the only concern still alive about the systemd+wayland combo for the linux users is the possibility to start KDE on Wayland also for *BSD through a legacy startup like startkde?
Jan 1, 2014
+Valerio De Angelis No, systemd-logind is still required by KWin on *BSD setups.Jan 1, 2014
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