Dr. –Your argumentation is circular: If the Quran and history contradict, then it is circular to argue that history must automatically be wrong because the Quran is true
. Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy.
Muhammad did not exist because the Quran says he existed
. Muhammad existed because he lived some 1,400 years ago
. To be sure, the Quran is historic evidence of Muhammad’s existence. Nevertheless, if there was no Quran, Muhammad would still have existed.
Likewise, Jesus did not exist in history because the Quran says He existed
. Jesus existed in history regardless of the Quran.
I’m willing to give historical arguments to show that the biblical claim regarding Jesus’ death on the cross actually happened in history. You dismiss my argument because your “beliefs are not based on history” and the “Quran says so.” Then you turn around and give historical arguments that, if
true, would undermine both the Bible and the Quran. This is a strange kind of “logic”; in fact, it’s not logical but circular.#3
Where does Scaruffi say, “The crucifixion story of Jesus is based on what Paul said”?” Would you please provide the quote?
You wrote that you “judge history according to Quran”, and “believe history is true wherever it is in harmony with the Quran.” The Quran was compiled after Muhammad’s death and, to my knowledge, does not give explanation as to how or who compiled it. Therefore: How would you argue against Piero Scaruffi who argues from history that “The Quran was therefore a book put together by order of the most corrupt of the early caliphs and an enemy of Mohammed…?” #4
— I agree with Michael Hart that Paul was influential in the development of Christianity. But contrary to what you wrote above, Michael Hart makes clear that without Jesus, there would be no Christianity. As I said above, “It’s one thing to say Paul is the true founder of present day Christianity
as you previously asserted leaving Jesus out. It’s another thing to say that Paul was significant in the development
Even if Paul were taken out of the equation, it’s clear that the followers of Jesus believed He died on the cross. All you need to do is read the Gospels, the letters of Peter, and/or John.#5
— You wrote, “I believe that Jesus (Allah's blessings be upon him) had a virgin birth because Quran says so, not because some historian has said so.”Historical events are true because they happened, not because the “Quran says so.”
The Virgin Birth isn’t true because the Quran says so
, but because it happened in history. Jesus did not have a Virgin Birth because some historian said so
. Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary because it happened in history
Since the Virgin Birth of Jesus was an event in history, then it is reasonable to look for historical evidence—even in an event as unique as this.
The same is true for Jesus’ death on the cross. I don’t believe Jesus died on the cross because some historian says so. Rather, I—and other historians—believe Jesus died on the cross because it was an historical event that happened almost 2,000 years ago
Moving beyond the Virgin Birth of Jesus to other alleged miracles of Jesus in the Quran. Muslims believe God made a small river run under Mary at the time of Jesus’ birth so she could drink. Muslims believe Mary gave birth under a palm tree and a voice (Jesus?) spoke to her, “Be not grieved.” Muslims believe Jesus spoke as an infant (Quran 19:30-33). If these events are true, then they are true because they happened in history, not because the “Quran says so.” So the question that needs to be answered is whether you have solid historical grounding for believing these historical claims about Mary and Jesus? Again, my point is that historical events are true because they happened, not because the “Quran says so.” #6
Dr. as I pointed out with your psychotic patient example: the question is who believes in reality and who does not
. If the Quran denies history (i.e. Jesus’ death on the cross), then appealing to other Muslims who hold this irrational view is like a psychotic patient appealing to other psychotic patients who now believe the same irrational things.
Islam’s denial of Jesus’ death on the cross does not correspond to reality; it doesn’t correspond to history.
Historical ground should be common ground because it is rational ground.#7
It is fallacious to argue that the Quran is true because the Quran says it is true. Now, the question is whether the Quran is true because it is inimitable.
The challenge of the Quran is not justification for dismissing other historians or for believing the Quran is the word of God. It does not logically follow that everything the Quran says about history is true because the collaboration of mankind and jinns allegedly can’t produce the like thereof (Quran 2:23; 17:88).
Dr. This is the third time I’ve asked—fourth if you include previous posts—*how well do you know classical Arabic?*
It’s an important question because if you aren’t fluent in classical Arabic, then how can you to decide upon the challenge of the Quran? Is this why you have avoided answering the question?
Others who are capable in classical Arabic have taken up the challenge, and this is why I asked you specifically about Surat Al-Hayat
You sent me a link, but I did not see any specific mention of Surat Al-Hayat
Again, my question to you is: I would like to know your judgment of Surat Al-Hayat
Other questions you did not answer about the challenge of the Quran: Who is to adjudicate whether or not the challenge was met? Can non-Muslims decide? How can non-Arabic speakers like myself—and the majority of the world—know whether or not the challenge was met successfully (Quranic Arabic is not common ground)?
As for the quotes from scholars you sent about the inimitability of the Quran: this is a two way street. Some scholars who know classical Arabic have a negative assessment of the Quran.
See footnote #9 at:http://www.bible-quran.com/religious-beliefs/what-every-christian-should-know-about-the-quran/
Dr., you wrote earlier against me saying, “You may bring many facts from history because you are a historian but he would only accept what, in his view, the Bible says. Logic will not work with him but I would still encourage you to quote the historical facts for those who want to listen to the truth.” Based on our current discussion I think you have described yourself. (•‿•)#8
I’ve already referred you to my answer to this at: http://www.bible-quran.com/book/jesus-death-cross/
, and I’ve asked you follow up questions: (a) What is your early historical evidence that Jesus did not die on the cross and that what really happened is asserted in Quran 4:157-158?.; (b) If you think the confused and convoluted Islamic position about Jesus and the cross is the true and historical one, then historical reasons need to be given. You need to historically explain how and why the Christian, Jewish, and non-Christian version of the crucifixion is the historical record and not the Muslim account.