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If a woman is drunk, don't rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don't rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don't rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don't rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don't rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you're still hung up on, don't rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don't rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don't rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don't rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don't rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don't rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don't rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don't rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don't rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don't rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don't rape her.
If your friend thinks it's okay to rape someone, tell him it's not, and that he's not your friend.
If your "friend" tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there's an unconscious woman upstairs and it's your turn, don't rape her, call the police and tell the guy he's a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it's not okay to rape someone.
Don't tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.
Don't imply that she could have avoided it if she'd only done/not done x.
Don't imply that it's in any way her fault.
Don't let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he "got some" with the drunk girl.
Don't perpetuate a culture that tells you that you have no control over or responsibility for your actions. You can, too, help yourself.
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Jason Vermillion's profile photoRufus Evison's profile photoReza Reaper's profile photoBishnupada Banik's profile photo
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Do men really need to be told all this? Do posts like this really have to be written at all. Because if so ... you might consider the mental state of your audience and whether such a message even would make one shred of difference to them.
 
After hearing "Well what were you wearing? as many times as I have you come to realize that, more often than not, blame falls on the victim.

Its not so much that I think it would make a difference to people like that, its that I hope it will encourage them to uncircle me.
 
When men posts such things I wonder if they're more like sick billboards meant to attract more women ... or ... sicker yet ... public reminders for themselves ... Animals can't read so who is the message intended for?
 
+Elaine Barlow , sadly, yes: some men need to be reminded of this stuff. Last week our local paper had an article about a young woman who fought off a man who tried to abduct her. Most of the comments on the article seemed to think it was her fault for walking alone at night.

And I live in South Texas, not Saudi Arabia.
 
It sadden me every time I see the victim blaming argument.
 
Mr Brown ... you're telling me about the actions, comments, and opinions expressed by an audience of animals so I'm not at all surprised. Again ... such sentiment is lost on the mob. Of course they would think that because they're no better than the men they side with. So what do you expect? I wonder why people are so surprised and irritated by such things. This is reality. Lists of what animals shouldn't do aren't going to change that.
 
Yes, it needs to be said over and over again until it becomes so normative that other ideas are unimaginable to normal socialized people.

Plenty of people who are otherwise perfectly reasonable normal people still hold these beliefs. Since courts endorsed the victim blame game within my lifetime, that's hardly surprising.
 
This kinda post is not necessary on G+ considering only people who want to learn new things come here, generally slightly more intelligent folks...rapists tend to be the less educated, and those without morals. I like to think we circle people who are interesting and who wouldn't do such things. Besides...a rapists wouldn't give a damn about your post anyway. Rape won't end until there are no more dark alleys and no girls who walk alone at night...it's part of human history...wanna stop it? put cameras everywhere, put lights everywhere...and then hope the rapists just don't want to get caught....just the way it is...
 
Normative .... in this world more than half the population is on psychiatric medication for various psychosis and the rest are as empty, mindless, and soulless as the zombies the love to watch on screen. This is what is normal. Apathy, hatred, selfishness, animal behavior. So I'm afraid, +Shasta Willson , that it will be a long time to never before your wish is granted.
 
+Elaine Barlow by "This world" you mean, the united states? Other countries are not as heavily medicated, lol.
 
There will always be rapists, +Ramsez Stamper because we are animals at the core and devolving daily to become even less. There will always be rapists so long as women have vaginae and men have penes.
 
+Elaine Barlow we are no devolving...people always say that...but look at history and how the world has changed. There are less wars, less fighting in general. In civilized nations, the average person wouldn't know how to hold their own in a fight at all. We have become more peaceful and more informed and educated....granted, 95% of the world is still ignorant and less educated, but 5% is a huge improvement over barely 3000 years...we've made huge strides....so no...we are not devolving...we just have to work around those who refuse to better themselves.
 
@Elaine, not so long ago the idea that a wife could be raped by her husband was considered absurd. Not long before that some humans were property to be bought, sold and bred as stock.

Those concepts are considered unacceptable in modern Western culture today. Are there still people who yearn for those days? Sure, but we properly see them as aberrant, while the notion that a woman is often responsible for her rape continues to be widespread.

People like Shauna who speak up help society find a new, better, normal.

People who insist corrupt normals are inherent and natural delay those advances.

I'm sorry you see such a bleak world. The truth is we in modern society have longer healthier lives with more freedom than at any time in history. (Which is not to say we don't have terrible new problems like environmental destruction on an unprecedented scale and massive imbalances between the haves and have-nots.)
 
I find it "odd," to say the least, when the subject of rape is brought up, that it only applies to women, that women don't rape, or that only men are "animalistic." LOL
In this modern age so touted here, women are just as prone to take advantage of a man as what was "the norm..." at least in mainstream countries, i.e. getting men drunk/high and taking that advantage to their own desires . And NO, America isn't the skank world of raping. It's just as, if not more prevalent across the pond.
Just to be clear about what is or is not being "taken advantage of" in sexuality...while rape focuses on "forced sexual intercourse," women ELICIT sexual intercourse (a different kind of "force") CONSTANTLY to their own desires/ends, whether it be to profit monetarily or to wield control over their mates or significant others.
 
I'm sorry, but a woman can't just "change her mind" about having sex in the middle of having sex.
 
+Paul Lagle Of course that legally is rape in a lot of countries. Rape or not, the line is very narrow, defining it in legal terms extremely hard, legislation sometimes too tough, sometimes just too ambiguous.

People need to learn to keep fantasy and reality apart again, learn to control their instincts, learn to embrace their nature, learn to respect each other. Our current political or cultural system in the US or Europe does not promote that at all.
 
Actually, if a woman tells you to stop, you have to stop, even if you're"in the middle".

You know, sort of like if you decide you're done she can't force you to continue?

If you continue after that point, regardless of the reason, it's rape. It may also be someone you don't choose to sleep with again, depending on her reasons ("Oops honey I forgot to insert the diaphragm" might be an exception.)
 
Little problem here, +Shasta Willson - of course from a legal point of view you are correct (in many countries).

Ethically, to agree with engaging sexually, to actively participate, to communicate your consent, to "get the ball rolling" and then crying stop without any seriously pressing reason is IMHO utterly disrespectful, no matter by whom it is done.

Using a word or an action to exert power over another person in a sexual context without their consent is wrong - that goes for a man using force to have sex with a woman, but also goes for a woman who uses stop in order to exert power over a man just because she can.

Sex has a lot to do with communication, power dynamics but also very basic instinctual behavior. Legal leverage is the wrong way to fight rape - it is a way to increase immediate protection for people, but it also opens up doors for abuse. It's neither a solution to the problem nor does it foster any long term change.

Education is much more powerful but it needs a society willing to be open and invest in such a solution. We mostly just want a quick fix, and now!
 
+A Kangaroo You know what else is disrespectful? Rape.

No matter what the reasoning behind it, if anyone involved changes their mind about sex then it should be stopped. It doesn't matter their gender or orientation. It's about respect.

While sex generally does have a lot to do with communication in a general sense, it would be wrong to say that everyone communicates about sex. Legal means are the only way to fight rape in the current state of the country (speaking from the US here, in other places I would suggest guns). I would love to be able to say that we live in a world where people are honest and there are no rapists, but that just isn't true.

It should be assumed that anyone accused of any crime is innocent until proven otherwise, though it seems that with sex crimes this idea kind of gets tossed out the window.

There is a huge need for societal change and changes in the way we look at sex, but for now the only thing we can do is preach, teach our children, and hope that eventually things will shift away from this.
 
I think you said something really important +Shauna Myers: teach our children. May I add to that: teach our friends, co-workers, family, everybody we know.

Men raping women, women raping men, or whoever is raping whoever else is caused by a disrespectful attitude towards life, people, living beings and choice. Changing the law will not change the attitude of people nor will it change the reasons behind bad things - I think the US is pretty good proof for that (heck, Europe too)

Rather, it opens up yet another venue for abuse (lots of examples there too). Accused until proven otherwise is tossed out of the window so many times.

Let's teach - others and ourselves and we will change society.
 
+A Kangaroo, I agree it's disrespectful. People are disrespectful all the time. You can't beat them up for it, you can't rape them for it, you shouldn't even slander them for it.

What do you do? You cut off contact with them going forward.

Happily you're under no obligation to have sex with her again, so your solution is easy. Much harder when it's your boss or mom being disrespectful (hopefully in a different way!) and yet we manage to carry on without other forms of assault.

It's the fact people keep saying things like that that make Shauna's post so critical. It's NOT universally understood, even in polite society with otherwise nice people, that no means no ALWAYS.
 
No does mean no - full agreement there. But that was not my point, nor was it that doing something is disrespectful.
Rape is bad. Nuff said.
 
Wow, if someone changes their mind in the middle of sex and you don't stop, that's rape +Jason Vermillion, +Paul Lagle, and +A Kangaroo. End of. And +Ramsez Stamper, nice victim blaming. These mindsets on Google+ are exactly why this kind of post is absolutely necessary here.
 
+Tara Hines if somebody changes their mind in the middle of sex in order to exert power over the other partner without their consent and they stop - who is raping whom?

This statement does not to take away anything of the gravity, seriousness, pain and destruction that rape victims experience. Thousands of them, every day, every hour. It is a shame that it still happens in our world and this must change.

This statement shows that especially sex crimes have an enormous complexity of reasons and dynamic behind them, even though their effects are always equally brutally damaging.

My point is neither changes in law, changes in definition of rape, changes in punishment, singling out stereotypical groups or simple slogans will change that. Unfortunately we have seen that things get worse. My point is, and always have been, real change needs education. Not indoctrination, not blanket ethical statements, but hard work hands on education of individuals. Children, young adults and grown ups.
 
+Tara Hines But a free pass is given to the woman who up and 'decides' she doesn't want to have sex - after she has made a choice to have sex, communicated to her partner the desire for and decision to have sex, and initiated the act of sex? That doesn't make sense to me. I can't get in a car with a drunk driver and then expect them to stop and let me out right before we get in a wreck. At some point you have to live with your choices, even if you decide later that they were wrong. But we can't in any way discuss personal responsibility as it pertains to 'rape' because... Well that is just not PC. After all, rape is bad. End of discussion.
 
+Jason Vermillion Are you seriously comparing men during sex with drunk drivers? How unbelievably insulting to men, who are responsible adults perfectly capable of stopping for a variety of reasons including "Huh..she changed her mind.."

LATER you get to talk about why. Maybe you're on board ("I forgot to put the stuff on the diaphragm.") Maybe you're not ("I just decided I wasn't that into you.")

And if you don't like the reason, you get to walk away. That's the penalty she pays. She loses you.

Just like EVERY OTHER broken promise in life.

Affair? Walk away, or get over it.

Husband joined the Air Force? Walk away or get over it. (Yes, that's a real example -- she walked.)

Spent the retirement without talking? Walk away or get over it.

You getting the picture?
 
I'm not at all getting the picture you are trying to paint, here. I'm talking about living with the decisions you make and with their consequences. If you decide to have sex with someone, that is a decision you need to live with. You can't change your mind in the middle and then cry rape.
 
If you're saying you can't decide you regret what you already did and re-spin it as rape, then of course we're in agreement. That's a false accusation, and our court system should deal with those harshly (and doesn't.)

But if you're saying once you've started it's not really ok to stop, then Jason, you're the problem.

You see Jason, sex isn't "finished" when the man ejaculates. It's finished when EITHER partner decides it's finished. Sometimes one partner is done before the other one wanted to be.

Do you feel the same way about men who stop in the middle because they've had an orgasm? Do they have an obligation not to stop until the woman is satisfied? What if that takes her hours? What if you have to work in the morning. What if your neck is getting sore? What if you just don't FEEL like it any more?

Do you see how absurd and selfish your assertion that a woman has to see it through until you are satisfied is?
 
I'm not saying sex is finished when the man ejaculates (after all, that's why God created dildos marital aids) but I'm not sure that I would say sex is finished when either partner says so. A consensus should be reached.

But yes, my initial disagreement had more to do with the behavior where a woman will initiate sex, and then in the middle (perhaps she sobers up a bit) decide that she is being a slut and cry out, "OMG stop it you're raping me!" Or as mentioned above a woman can use this as some twisted power play, initiating sex for the pleasure she gets from stopping the man in the middle, a sex act for the sole purpose of dominating her partner. Perhaps a woman wants to 'play' rape with her boyfriend, but they don't have the foresight to establish a safe word. Or maybe a woman will tell a man to stop in the middle of sex with the hope that he will keep going, so that she can have him charged with rape.

My point is that there are many layers in play here, and I take no issue with anything else in the original post, but I wouldn't say "If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity [it is rape.]"
 
There are no layers except if someone doesn't want to have sex, they don't have to. If someone doesn't want to continue to have sex, they don't have to. You can't force someone to have sex against their will just because you want to keep going. Good job implying that women who are sexually active are sluts, too.
It doesn't matter if the intent is malicious or not because the bottom line is, if my partner tells me to stop in the middle of sex, then I will stop and it scares me that there are people who think they don't have to because "what if they're just trying to dominate me :'("

The world doesn't revolve around you and your orgasm. No one owes you anything. Saying you want to have sex is not a contract wherein you HAVE to keep going until your partner has an orgasm. Sex is over when just one partner decides it is because it takes two consenting people, otherwise it's rape. It just is. It's a fact. There are no exceptions. It's mind boggling to me that you are fighting this so hard.
 
Yes, in perfect little hippie land no one has to do anything they don't want to.

Meanwhile, in the real world things aren't so black and white, and it worries me that the type of person that would try to limit this discussion - and claim no exceptions - is the kind of person that would be selected to serve on a jury some day deciding a case like this.
 
It's not about not doing anything you don't want. It's about respecting other humans and not intentionally doing things that would hurt them.

So remember this Jason: if I'm on the jury and a man or woman says you refused to stop after they clearly communicated to you that they wanted you to stop, I will absolutely vote to convict for rape.

My husband proposed a less legal solution for men who do things like that to women.

His proposed solution is not one that would go over well in "hippie land".
 
+Shasta Willson tied me down and used a tourniquet to rape me. She refused to stop after I cearly communicated to her that I wanted to her to stop. By her own logic above you should vote to convict her despite the slight issue with my never having met her.

Shasta you only vote to convict if the preponderance of evidence is credible and suggests it happened. I know this is a touchy one as how do you knwo who is lying? Despite the problems we should try to be fair to both sides.

I once had a girlfriend accuse her ex of raping her, but he was in a different county when the supposed offence took place; it never came to court.
 
Army Sexual Assault/Harassment Victim Advocate here
The original post is a great example of the direction the Army is going now of focusing on the offender as opposed to the victim in regards to prevention. All of us can help reduce Sexual Assault by being informed, aware and stepping up to help prevent situations.

Statistically sexual assaults occur most with young average men as the perpetrator. It’s less often the guy skulking in the ally. The weapon of choice is normally alcohol. The M.O.: identify the target, use alcohol to incapacitate the victim and then engage in non-consensual intercourse while the victim is incapacitated. We have all heard stories of guys saying that the girl really wanted it and is falsely reporting... the fact is that false reporting comprises less than 3% of cases when sent for further investigation.

Other fun fact female on male sexual assault does happen... though admittedly less so than assault on females. A male will have 6-8 erections during a regular sleep cycle. This can be taken advantage of when a male is incapacitated. Though most often assaults on males are by other males when the victim is incapacitated by alcohol or another substance.

What can we do? If you see someone pushing drinks on someone... act and intervene. When you know to look for the preceding actions it can be obvious what’s going on.

Also speaking as an expert on the subject... I think most of the arguments given by some of the guys in this thread are in the top ten of common misconceptions concerning sexual assault. They are statistically less likely scenarios that don’t really reflect reality. I don’t blame them though, I just try to inform so people no longer spread those false misconceptions.
 
+Tara Hines "So remember this Jason: if I'm on the jury and a man or woman says you refused to stop after they clearly communicated to you that they wanted you to stop, I will absolutely vote to convict for rape." if you are judging an issue without the informationm and potentially sending someone to prison for it that is a point. It is not the one Shasta meant to make but is the point she did make and it needed a reply. I am entirely on with my guess as to what she may have meant but *very * strongly object to what she actually said and maybe to what she meant.
A shame as I agree with the post and would never consider the disrespect involved in something like rape. That said I woud never conmsider prejudging an issue based on hiow bad uit was. I feel that the worse it is the more certainly you need to know the truth before deciding.
 
Here you go Rufus:

"Jason: if I'm on the jury and a man or woman convinces me that you failed to stop having sex after they clearly communicated to you that they wanted you to stop, I will vote to convict."

Seriously, Rufus, you're going to hang up a conversation about something as serious as rape because I only implied "and they've convinced me their claim is true", which seemed a blatantly obvious prerequisite for any ethical juror? Shame on you.
 
+Shasta Willson Apologies for hanging it up but you did not imply it. Sadly of the people you meet on social media many would not have considered whether the person was actually guilty if a woman claimed it. Sadly like real life. On the other hand many are prejudioced the other way.
That said I have been back through the comments and cannot really find much reasoned discussion so I do not feel as guilty as I might for hanging it up. To me the whole thing is unthinkable anyway but I understand that I am not often in the majority on anything.

Please accept my apologies for disrupting the thread and think on it as 'I would not bother criticising if I did not think you could do better' which is a sort of backhanded compliment. (In a classroom the best people are the ones who get the criticism, praise meaning "you cannot do any better")
 
Fair enough. You're right that there are people who simply assume every claimed victim is an actual victim. I'm not in that group, and I wanted to make a pretty clear point to Jason that I consider his 'hypothetical' to be clear unequivocal rape.
 
Understood, but I stand by what I said. I don't feel this is a black and white issue, while the whole point of this feel-good post was to try and perpetuate the falsehood that rape is always a black and white issue.
 
The point of this post was to trigger discussion, which it has done admirably.

I've learned there are still men who are sure they have a right to satisfaction more important than their partner's wishes.

Hopefully you've learned that doing so is RAPE.
 
I have learned that people take fom a dfiscussion what they wanted to find, so like Jason I have really learned nothing. Is it true that anyone thinks it is their right to do that kind of thing or do they just try and excuse it by denying anyone is really hurt? I kind of go with "mistakes were made (but not by me) in terms of viewing the way people think about things.
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