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Jon Burnham
157 followers -
Husband / Father / Pastor / Relentless spiritual seeker
Husband / Father / Pastor / Relentless spiritual seeker

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Imagine tonight in the sanctuary. We have a 20 year old gospel singing Elvis Presley doing "Where Could I Go but to the Lord?" Some of the sisters faint in their pews. Some of the brothers begin to cry.

You really don't have to be a huge fan of the Hebrew Bible (what we Christians call the Old Testament) in order to realize that our church campus is situated on the edge of perhaps the largest Jewish community in Houston.

I'm not going to tell you the so-called Old Testament is unparalleled in expressing the human condition through story telling. Remember Adam and Eve? Abraham and Sarah? Isaac and Jacob? Dreamy Joseph and his coat of many colors? Moses and Elijah? And the wide range of human emotion and experience from mountain tops of spiritual heights to the valleys and pits of depression. All is exposed in the Psalms of David, is it not?

Speaking of David, the Ash Wednesday Sermon will be about David and Bathsheba and the amazing Psalm that David composed after he was called out by the Prophet Nathan for the sins of adultery and murder for which God forgave him and yet he still paid a heavy price. This story will knock your socks off.

Ash Wednesday marks the first day of Lent, forty weekdays before Easter. The practice of placing ashes on the forehead symbolizes repentance and contrition. We will engage in that mysterious liturgy in the church sanctuary and courtyard tonight. Will you be blown away tonight at 7:30 PM in the sanctuary? Will you then have that moment and that memory for all eternity? Only if you are present to experience it live.

Peace,
Jon B.

P.S. And you can attend and enjoy the mysterious Ash Wednesday Service starting in the sanctuary today at 7:30 PM, on March 1, can you not? And if you Mark your calendar and set a reminder now you will be more likely to remember to attend, will you not? That's right

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Here is my Super Bowl story. 10 years ago I was seeking a new call as a pastor. My prayer was "Lord, I want to be a pastor in a Major League City." Today, 10 years later, I live in a major league city, Houston, Texas. This weekend we are hosting the Super Bowl. The stadium where the game will be played is five minutes from my house. Prayer answered. Thank you, Lord.
So, what is like living in a major league city that is hosting the super bowl? Does it make you tingle 24/7 and lose sleep at night? No. It's more like living in a small town that is hosting a Cherry Festival. If you are on the Cherry Festival Planning Committee or really into cherries then you will be caught up in the excitement of the Cherry Festival. If you are not on that planning committee or a big fan of cherries, you probably won't notice anything different.
That is what it's like living in a city that's hosting the Super Bowl. If you are on the Super Bowl Planning Committee or if you are a huge NFL fan then you are very excited and it seems to be happening all around you. If you are not involved in hosting the event and not a big NFL fan, then you don't notice anything different except maybe a little more traffic the day before and the day of the game.
The reason for that is when you live in a major league city there are big events happening every week if not every day. There are big name rock concerts, plays, symphony concerts, art gallery openings, new restaurants opening, NBA games, MBL games, NFL games, college sports, etc. happening all the time. So you really don't notice any one event because that's just part of the ongoing flow of activity. However, if you are really a big fan of some particular event or activity, then of course you notice it and get excited.
I share this because it came as a revelation to me. I moved here from a small town. I soon noticed that what would have been a big deal in my small town was hardly noticed in the big city. There's too much happening all the time to take notice of any particular event for long. It's an interesting dynamic and I didn't expect.
By the way, the photo is from my high school days when I played quarterback at my small town high school. It was a big deal to me and the whole town because high school football is still a big deal in small towns all across America. However, I'm not sure it's such a big deal now as it was when I played back in 1978-80. I put a team picture because football, like like, is a team sport.
I learned a lot from playing football. I learned when you get knocked down you jump back up on your feet as quick as you can and act like nothing happened and it didn't hurt even when it did. I learned to be a leader by going first and inviting others to come along and follow your enthusiasm. It was a valuable experience but there are other ways, less dangerous ways, of learning such life lessons.

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Original story. Two old donkeys were walking down a dusty country road . . .

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You may want to read our church's new book for free here now:
"Healing Happens Here: Faith Stories from St. John's Presbyterian Church"

This book was written in celebration of our 60th Anniversary.

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The religious landscape looks bleak and chaotic. Yet God is doing a new thing! Discover and tell good news stories about what is working in the church today. Learn where to find such stories. Learn how to speak them into eBooks that you can publish for free. Grow your congregation’s platform. Foster cohesion among your congregational leaders. Become a writer and publisher! This skill may develop into a side business for you over time.

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A few months ago in a galaxy far far away . . .

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Urban Gardening at St John's Presbyterian Church in Houston. Want to join us? Call the church office. www.stjohnspreby.org

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T. Hartley Hall was a memorable figure. He served as president of Union Union Presbyterian Seminary when I was an M.Div. student there in 1992-94. I have a few memories of him to share. He was a Southern gentlemen of the previous generation. He was a Presbyterian from a previous generation. He smoked cigarettes constantly (as did many of us in that time) and often expressed concerns about his tobacco company stocks.

T. Hartley Hall (he always used his full name) toured the Middle East with a group of us from the seminary. On the flight over from New York to Iman I couldn't sleep on the plane but he had no such trouble. He put on his eye shades, stretched out his hands behind his back and snored like a baby. He was a loud person even when he slept.

Every afternoon at 4 pm or so wherever we were, on a bus or on a plane he pulled out a small, expensive looking wooden case and put it on his lap and ritually opened it up. The case contained a fifth of high quality Single Malt Scotch with glass cups. If you were sitting next to him he invited you to partake. I did share the cup with him from time to time on that journey.

Another memory was when we were having a spirituality conference at the seminary. We had a guest speaker and were having dinner with the faculty and conference leaders. The conference leader asked us all to describe what we mean by "spirituality." I tried to say something profound as did everyone else. When it was T. Hartley Hall's turn to answer he cleared his throat and I rolled my eyes. I didn't expect much from him. He was not very "spiritual" in my eyes. He then went on to eloquently and briefly describe spirituality as stewardship by which he meant giving 10% of your income and above to support the work of Christ's church. That blew my mind. It was so basic. It took me many years to grow into his definition of spirituality. Come to find out, he was actually much more spiritual than me.

Rest in peace, T. Hartley Hall. I'm glad I got to know you in your prime. You were a mentor to me. I look forward to glad reunion in the life to come.

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Look at the Second Chapter of Acts in the New Testament.

What do you see?

You see one of the most dramatic stories in the Bible.

It includes miracles of sight and hearing.

Then it quotes an apocalyptic Old Testament text from Joel.

Let's try to get at some of the wildness of the story today.

I'm referring to what happened in Acts 2:1-21.

= = = + = = =

Do you remember how it felt when the Holy Spirit was pushing us into the Single Parent Family Ministry? That uneasy, queasy, scared, unsure, tentative type of feeling? I remember it. Finally you come to a point where you’ve either got to do it or no. You’ve either got to be courageous and go forward or you’ve got to just let it go and then count your losses.

That kind of feeling I had last night. I was at my son’s high school. They were having a performance in the theater department. Three hundred parents were there. We had a silent auction on the side trying to raise some money for a trip to Edinburgh. I felt like I should stand up and say that we have this booth over here if you’d like to donate. We had iPads on each table if you’d like to donate. We’re having a great year. We appreciate the director. Let’s give him some applause. We appreciate the principal of the school for supporting this program. Let’s give him applause. We appreciate the people that cooked all this food tonight. Let’s give them applause.” But I wasn’t sure.

Before all that, I was going to say, “I’m Jon Burnham. I’m the pastor of St. John’s Presbyterian Church. We’re having worship tomorrow if ya’ll want to come.” I was going to do that too. Well, I did not do it. I just did not do it. It was like there was a sound barrier around me and I could not break through it. Now would it have been the right thing for me to do or not? I don’t know. I don’t know that group well enough to know if that would’ve been appropriate. But had that kind of feeling. Wow, here’s an opportunity. I need to speak, I need to break the sound barrier, but I’m scared. I’m not sure, and so I didn’t.

That’s kind of how Jonah felt when God told him to go to Nineveh. It was a great city of the ancient world. God called Jonah to go and announce that God was going to judge the city. That’s not something you want to volunteer for or agree to when your life could be at stake. And Jonah didn't even like the people living in Ninevah.

It’s the same kind of feeling Moses had when he stood before the burning bush. God calls him and says, “I’m going to send you up to Israel." Yes, I understand they’re slaves to the Egyptians right now. I know Pharaoh is the most powerful man on Earth. But you’re going to speak to him because I’m going to give you the power to do it.

And Moses stuttered like, “Ah ah ah ah ah I can’t even do this.”

And God said, “No, this is what you’re going to do. Moses felt uncomfortable. He trembled. There was a sound barrier full of fearful silence surrounding him. He finally broke it. He spoke out and God let the people of Israel out of Egypt into the promised land.

Or remember Jesus himself after his baptism in the river Jordan. Immediately after his baptism, the Spirit pushed him out into the wilderness. That word for "push" is "ball-o" in Greek and it's where we get the word baseball. The Spirit threw Jesus out in the wilderness. I imagine he was a little scared and uncomfortable. That wilderness in Israel didn’t have any wild animals there at that time. This was a metaphorical image. Jesus was going to struggle with his mission. He was going to deal with what God was calling him to do. He knew what that was going to take. So yes, he had some fear and some uncomfortableness around that.

It’s the kind of feeling that you get when I say this. “Hey, could you give me the email address of somebody that you know that we can put on our church newsletter list?” There are some heart palpitations around that. There’s a sound barrier around us. We're not comfortable speaking about our faith in Jesus.

“What are people going to think?” We wonder.You know the feeling. That’s the kind of feeling that the disciples were having on the day of the Pentecost. That's when the Spirit broke the sound barrier. They started hearing people speaking in all different languages. The people gathered from all over the world. They were at a festival. Everybody heard the gospel in their own language. Never mind the person speaking didn't know the language. The Spirit broke the sound barrier.

There’s a great story here about Chuck Yeager who broke the sound barrier in air flight. It happened on October 19, 1947 at Edwards Air Force Base. The problem happened in the airplane at that speed around seven hundred sixty five miles per hour. When you’re about to break the sound barrier, your plane starts vibrating and rattling. The assumption was if you went five, ten, fifteen miles per hour faster, your plane would explode. The test pilot would get right on the edge of that speed and breaking the sound barrier. The plane would start shaking and the pilot would reduce the speed because he did not want to die. But Chuck Yeager was one of those pilots and he decided he was going to do it. Thirteen hours before he got into that plane for that flight, he had an accident. He was riding a horse and into a stable when “WHAM,” he ran right into the gate, breaking two ribs. Thirteen hours before this flight. He decided, “I’m going to do it anyway.” Even through the pain.

When he got in the little tiny space for the cockpit, he couldn’t even close the door because he was in so much pain. It was like closing a bank vault. He had to take a broomstick. to shut the door from the inside. One of his engineers told him how he could finagle it to get the door to shut.

So, he gets up in the big plane that took him way up high, and they dropped him out of his plane. It’s like dropping a bomb. That’s what that big plane does. It drops bombs. It dropped Yeager's plane from its bomb door way up high in the air.

Yeager is flying the test plane now. He wants to break the sound barrier. So he takes off and circles back around, getting plenty of height in case something happens. So he’ll maybe have a chance to get out of it if an accident happens. He comes up to that speed nearly breaking the sound barrier. It was around seven hundred sixty five miles per hour when he starts shaking. But instead of backing off the speed, he hits the gas! And then,“BOOM!” people on the ground heard this sound. “BOOM!” they thought he was dead. They thought the plane exploded. What had happened is that he had broken the sound barrier. That explosive sound is what happens when you break the sound barrier. “BOOM!” is the sound. And what he found on the other side was quiet, and peaceful. The plane was not shaking any more. Everything is fine once you get through that sound barrier.

The secret was to speed up when everybody else slows down! Isn’t that crazy? That’s what the Holy Spirit did to the church on the day of Pentecost. The disciples are sitting around, they’re frozen in fear, they’re shaking, “Oh God, Jesus. They killed Jesus, they’re liable to come for us. We can’t leave this room. Somebody might see us. If they identify us as Christians, they may hang us up on a cross.” They’re in fear, trembling. You think it’s hard for you to get somebody to sign up for your church email list? If they spoke to someone about it, they thought they might die or get killed! And what does the Holy Spirit do? The Holy Spirit just jumps right over their head and starts speaking. through all the people in the crowd. The church is trying to put on the breaks and the Spirit is trying to push the gas. That, my friends, is how the church was born. If the Spirit had not broken the sound barrier, I don’t think any of us would be sitting here today. So that is how the Spirit works.

What does that mean for us? I don’t know. You tell me. Think about it, pray about it. We Presbyterians excel in slowing down. It’s so easy to slow anything down in this church, or in any church. All you have to do is tell a committee and that’s good. We have a process and I understand that. I love the Presbyterian way of doing things. But sometimes to break through to the next level, you’ve got to speed up instead of slowing down. Especially when you start feeling anxiety and that turbulence and the fear. So let’s just pray on this day of Pentecost that God will give us the courage to do what needs to happen. Whatever that may be. I don’t know what that is, I’m just telling you what the Bible says. You all have got to figure it out. You’re all smarter than I am anyway, so I’m not worried about it. Let’s take a moment and reflect on what we’ve read and heard.

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Writing is a spiritually transformative act.

How can Christians be more intentional about facilitating spiritual transformation through writing?

Here is the transcript of my interview with Kelly Boyer Sagert about her CHURCH WRITING MINISTRY.

Note that Kelly has written a very helpful book on this topic. Her book is called Everything to God in Prayer: A Writer's Weekly Devotional . I highly recommend it.

So just remind me of your name and where you are and what church and tell me about your writing project that you are doing with the church.

OK! Sure! I am Kelly Boyer Sagert. I am in Amherst, ...well the church is in Amherst, Ohio. It's Heritage Presbyterian Church. I'm actually in Merino, OH which is adjacent. We're about 30 miles west of Cleveland to kind of orient you to where we are.

Everything has evolved organically I guess. I have been a professional writer now for 26 years. And part of that is over time people started asking me to speak at writers conferences. I really enjoyed doing that. A lot of public speaking and teaching were added to my repertoire.

Maybe, I'm trying to think, maybe about five years ago the Metro parks in our area are really strong and they asked me if I would put on a writers conference. It was not specifically Christian. And so I put on that writer's conference. And then I became known as the person who knows about writer's conferences in this area.

Numerous people would ask me where is the nearest Christian Writing conference. I would say I have no idea. I don't know of any around here. And finally after being asked that for about two years it occurred to me that we should be doing one. And so let's see. We just had our fourth annual. In 2012 I decided we ought to have one. I had no money. I had no nothing. It was just sort of an idea.

So I went to our church and said if I could get speakers to speak for free or somehow figure out how to pay speakers would you be flexible on how we could host a conference here? Our church was really in financial trouble there. Trust me I'm going to do the best I can to make it reasonable for you as well and they said sure . That sounded good.

And then I went to my writer's group. It was not technically a Christian Writer's group although it was run by a former Nun and most people there were strongly Christian. That might not be the technical whatever but in reality they were mostly faithful Christians. So I said to them if I get a free venue or one that is very reasonable in cost would you donate your time to speak at it? And all kinds of people said absolutely and so ultimately we put together a writer's conference. That was 2012 and we had maybe 50 people. We broke even financially and didn't go into debt. It was really well received and so we decided well let's keep doing this. We just had our fourth annual writer's conference in April. In the past it's been one day but this year we added a social event the night before and then it one day so now it's a day and a quarter.

And this upcoming year we are thinking about starting a Christian writer/speaker kind of event as well. I have tentively booked a speaker. I'm not sure how we are going to pay for it and all sorts of things . It's definitely as we expand we are expanding our faith and so far so good. And so maybe a couple of times a year we are going to have a Christian author come and the reason we want to do that is to open it to the community to people who don't necessarily even consider themselves writers because right now the people we are getting are actively writing or want to be. Then we could open it up further to others who don't necessary think of themselves as best selling writers but like to read .. and then in the middle of all this actually during the first year we did this I got seriously ill. I had 9 colon surgeries in 14 months. four of them were great big ones (surgeries) and then five of them smaller. I was very ill for about two years.

Wow!

Yah, it was pretty wild. During that time obviously I was doing a lot of reading because that is always my default position. If I can't be doing things I'm always reading. I read a book that talked about a Ministry of Words . I had never really thought about what I was doing as a ministry . I thought that was a bit strange when it was a Christian writer's conference. I hadn't thought about it that way. And so I wrote and e-mailed the author and told her how her book had sort of flipped my brain...flipped a switch on in my brain and she said I have a feeling you have a ministry of words too. You just don't know what it is yet. So then from a practical standpoint and from what I learned there when I realized I was stable in my health I thought will I will start doing something every month smaller as a small group ministry that from a practical stand sense would feed right into our writer's conference and from another just a ministry...that people could be ministered to in a small group way. So I talked to our church and we started doing monthly spiritual writing classes. Tonight is the last one. We are finishing year two. And that is a little different in that the writer's conference there are some workshops where people are actually writing but there's a lot of educating. Anywhere from How to get published? Editing. How to create characters? How do you interview people? How do you find sources? There's a lot of practical aspects to the writer's conferences where the spiritual writing is strictly where you kind of delve inside yourself through writing exercises. For example ...and I could send you something that would make this easier to understand. I found scriptures in the Bible that related to water and all the ways it was used and then how the Bible uses rocks and color and all these different things. I would sometimes read a scripture at the beginning and give people an exercise to start free writing and then they would begin free writing on that subject. And then we would go around the circle and if you want to share that would be great and if you don't just say pass that would be ok. We are not going to pressure you. And then we talk about it. We talk about the patterns we see and the insights we gain and that's free.

I do ask people to bring canned food if they can as we live in a very poor city. There's a lot of hungry people. So certainly someone can pay us by bring food to the food pantry and more power to them. We certainly appreciate it. Other than that I pay for everything extra myself to make it happen.

So all this is going on and our church...was without a minister and I had pretty much had to learn to preach and other church leaders had to learn to preach . It was a pretty wild time. We were working with our Presbytery through it and it was several months ago that they sent out that they had some grant funding for ministries that didn't necessary involve a pastor. They wanted to strengthen ministries that are done by lay people. So I thought what the heck . Most of the people on this list of who would decide who got the funding were people I had worked with them when we didn't have a minister. So they know me and know what I do . And so I sent in that what I wanted to do was two, no three fold. One I wanted to create a workbook so that people who wanted to do this in their own churches could do it and that I also wanted to offer training so that people could sit and go through it and see what it was like and all sorts of things . And three because we really live in poor communities I wanted to get some scholarship funding because I know there are people who want to go to a Christian writer's conference and even though it's $20 early -$25 later and you can pay it later some people just don't have that money. So I wrote a grant and I think it was in August I got money to do that. So now I'm in the middle of writing a training manual. I am going to do three training sessions in the Cleveland area. The west side of it and east side of it and Cleveland proper. And we have enough funding I'm making 45 training manuals, 15 each. And I'm buying props. I made some Christian poetry magnets that we can use. There's all kinds of cool things we can do. We are doing our training and then we are turning it into Kindle and any money we get off of Kindle will help continue to fund the Christian writing ministry that we have.

So I'm in the middle of doing that. I think that's the big picture of what I'm doing . That gives you the broad idea of what I'm doing. I can send you the training manual with the understanding it's not quite done.

Wow! That's great. So it's kind of more from teaching a writers class in your church to teaching it in the city. Has it become kind of a Presbytery thing? Well I guess it has since they gave you the grant money.

Yes, they have taken it on as a ministry they do and they actually had me come in to do a leadership training for the Presbytery. One of the options people could take classes from me . I taught three or four in the daytime. did it three or four times . Different people from the leadership of other churches could come. Yes, and that's what kind of sparks people's interest. You can get this funding . I can only go so many times.

I did some outreach. There's an Episcopal priest who came and helped our church with some leadership training when we didn't have any money . She asked me if I would bring this to her church and I personally went and did that . I just saw her Saturday and she said we are ready for you to come back. So that may become a more regular thing.

Also there's a former pastor of mine now works in Hospice and there was a man who was in homebound palliative care and he kept saying to the pastor "I just want to express my stories, I need to get this out before..." whatever so we went to his house and just took it on the road a few ways with Presbytery, the other church and this Hospice thing and it was well received. That's starting to spread.

That's neat. It's kind of one of the things I was thinking about too. I love the story of the Hospice guy's story and I kind of got to thinking I wanted to help people to write their memoirs. So have you had any success stories of someone who came and they went and wrote and they followed through and how did that make them feel?

Probably the biggest one ...and I didn't realize when she first came about two years ago.....Pretty much we put it on a sign and I told the people I knew whoever's coming are coming. It was usually four to ten people . Now this is the monthly workshops I'm talking about . It's clearly a small group ministry and we usually get four to ten. And someone who just happened to be going down the road and saw it came to the first one and someone gave her a ride after awhile because she told me she didn't have transportation and someone started picking her up . Little by little I could tell she had some rough times in her life and not too long ago she said you know when I came the first time, she said I realized I needed to get sober or die and she said there are stories within me I have to tell that will hopefully help other people. She told me just last month you have completely transformed my life which was not me.

Wow!

She said you never judged me. You always made me feel important to the other people that were there. And I said well you are. That might have been a stretch there but I would say she has said her life is different because she is expressing things she hasn't been able to do before.

That's cool. And so you started this out and maybe it still is once a month just like a writer's training type thing?

Well the yearly writer's conference is a writer's training . Where we teach you: Here's how you can improve your writing , Here's how you can edit, Here's how you network and how you publish. The annual event is clearly a training event and networking too. Whereas the monthly is more tapping into what God is trying to tell you what your ministry maybe should be . Now one of the ways ...well when I send you the workbook you will see what I mean.. but when I was really sick and I realized I was getting better I signed up for this creative writer's class and they told me one of the first things they want you to do is write as if I was a very specific color in the first person. At the time I thought that was bizarre. And so the first color that came to my mind was strawberry pink. And so I wrote as strawberry pink and it told me all kinds of things that I hadn't realized that I was thinking about myself and my family. And so that is one I have used and over and over again people tell me that they get these insights . Things they had never realized about themselves. And other people will say well I knew that about you ..others outside the class . It's more like a gateway to talking about faith and even discovering what it even is . So it is different in that way.

Well that's great. So you are kind of like using the writing as a spiritual director kind of sense.

Yes, a spiritual director. So yes when I started I didn't realize that's what I was doing but now that it has actually become a reality that really is what it is.

Well that's cool. It is. That's kind of like what I was thinking. Here's what I was thinking and I really haven't done anything but I'm really happy to hear about yours and I want to get everything you send me . I don't know I just . . I can't even remember what got me turned on to this whole concept but I was thinking about helping people write their memoirs and helping them publish and I was thinking that would be a great thing to do when I retire. I had read a great article about what to do when you retire. Then I thought why wait until I retire and that got me to thinking about this . Then I was reading and learning all about self publishing and then I got on the whole idea of getting my church to be a self publishing community let's say. So we go around and find stories like I'm getting from you and we write them up in books, something like Chicken Soup for the Soul

Yeah, I've written for that by the way.

Ok . So there you go.

So yes I know what you are talking about.

So I'd like to get stories about the church. Get some good news stories about the church since all we hear is about how it's falling apart...which it is, but there's always the other side. And so I did find a woman in the church who does some transcribing for me. Like this interview. I will probably send this to her and see if she will transcribe it and that's kind of as far as we got in developing this. I kind of wanted to have a production machine or something from different people in the church and that really hasn't happened but have you ever thought of anything about like that? What is your response to that idea? Pros or cons?

You know I really like it . Two things ..these aren't direct answers to you but I thought of it. One of the things I did was ending up writing a book of devotional based on all this, on my experiences with the colon disease and writing with the church. I can send you one . I should be able to send you one of my kindle versions. EVERYTHING TO GOD IN PRAYER, a writer's weekly devotional.

Well I will buy it on Amazon. Tell me your name again. I'm so bad.

No that's alright. My name is Kelly Boyer Sagert.

OK right . Here I go. I'm going to your Amazon page. Oh my goodness you have 1970's, Joe Jackson, that sound right?

That's me.

Extreme sports, Flappers...

Yep that's me too.

Oh that's cool . I don't see that particular book.

It should be EVERYTHING TO GOD IN PRAYER. It should be in there.

Well ok let me just site it . Here it is.

What I was thinking. Everyone of them have writing prompts and so that might help you with some people. When you say write something a lot of times what stops people is they worry about what will they write about. What will they say? Every one of those has a brief devotional and then it says try writing about this. So that might help people get started

Yeah, that's right.

That could help and the other thing is there's another church and I wrote to them once and they sort of did this on line. I think it was a Baptist church. It was about things ...basically the idea was you would do an awful thing in your life and then you are willing to write about it and help other people. I had a colostomy for eight months and that was the worst thing that happened in my life. So I wrote about how that was the worst and wrote how it spiritually effected me and how I came out on the other side. And so they did it all on line. That's the only other church who are doing kind of, sort of what you are talking about.

Ok, well maybe you will remember then and you can tell me their name.

Yeah. I will have to look in my emails.

Well anything else on this on what you are doing ....I'm going to turn the recording off and continue our conversation. If you've got time. Well I'm going to turn this off then.
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