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PZ Myers hung out with 6 people. #hangoutsonairLouis Redux, Ian Brown, Jennifer McCreight, Rebecca Watson, Esteleth Squidly, and Jade Hawk
Atheism+?
PZ Myers and 6 others participated
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Kristopher Hite's profile photoAndre Engelbrecht's profile photoJade Hawk's profile photoBob Terrace's profile photo
81 comments
 
Better quality here than over on youtube. Yay.
 
Can I quickly say that I'm totally fangirling Jen and Rebecca? :D :D :D
 
My question: Atheism+ is gaining traction on the internet, what's the next step?
 
Perpetual reinvention (e.g. "renaming") may be necessary to keep any "movement" alive. What comes "after" A+?

Sorry about the scare quotes.
 
Louis, that may be your privilege in not being subjected to the worst of sexism. Hard to say, though.
 
yay! linky finally worked :-)
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Group behavior seems to tend to evolve (devolve?) into a race to the bottom. It's easier to lay waste with drama than to participate maturely.

+Remy Porter, ha ha. How about A++ or A#?
 
Man, humans suck. But you guys give me hope. Illegitimi non carborundum!
 
I've seen several people argue that the recent influx of asshattery is the last hurrah of the misogynists. I'm not entirely sure this is true - I WANT it to be true, but I'm not sure if it is.
 
Atheism + other issues, eg feminism
 
Nobody needs to step down- I think it really needs to be a collaborative effort, something from the collective. We have to all do this together.
 
I would like to thank those of you who do post against the assholes. There's a silent audience out there that is encouraged (or at least not as discouraged). If I did any posting, all I would be able to think of would be to say "yes, I agree".
 
Stop 1 woman, 5 replace her... sounds like a hydra. Now we're Marvel comic villains?
 
People attacking atheists who want to talk about diversity and social justice reminds me of how people will bitch on Facebook about others' posts on politics, food or whatever. I've never understood the need to attack someone else because you don't like his or her opinion, interests, hobby, etc. If you don't like the subject, then don't read, participate, etc. Go find your own interest and your own hobby. However, I think that sadly for some people their "hobby" is attacking and belittling other people to feel better about themselves; some folks are just abusive. So, anyway, good on you and have courage in fighting the good fight to have discussions on these topics within atheism. :)
 
The underlying issue is that these people see it as  a zero-sum game. Benefits for someone not them is the loss of benefits for them. By promoting diversity, they see it as a loss of their own opportunity to promote themselves.
 
Marvel Hydra is not actually hydra; it's an octopus with a human skull. just sayin'
 
Racists always hate diversity. Just because someone is an atheist doesn't preclude them being racist, misogynist, homophobic, etc. They need to be made uncomfortable so that they leave the community.
 
They also seem to see atheism as a zero sum game, where any diverting of attention from "real atheism" is a loss. Which is obviously wrong.
 
Haven't used hangout before - interesting.
 
Exactly, +Joel Sutton . And that's a global issue, not just for the intersection of Atheism and social justice, but just social justice in general. Promotion of minority interests (is viewed as being) at the cost of majority interests?
 
"The Free Market" and "Incentive" replaces "God" for the libertoonian wing of atheism. They can't wank to God with a straight face, so they wank to their favored ideology.
 
So is there going to be a fun run for his penis?
 
huh; when living in seattle. nobody asked my NAME, even though that's the place I got the most catcalls and demands for my phonenmber
 
Something's occurred to me just now, please poke holes if it's wrong - zero sum game assumptions are pervasive, are economists to blame for this sort of mindset? IANAE, but a lot of economics seems to be pseudo-scientific attempts to measure the immeasurable. These theories and methods then get transferred to even less measurable things.
 
fark, mike not working
 
That's an oversimplification, but is there possibly a kernel of truth in there somewhere?
 
I don't think economists are to blame, +Joel Sutton , any more than game theorists are. I think there's a natural inclination for human beings to view things in zero sum terms.

It's clear and immediate and comprehensible. The idea that a game has other payouts… well, it's hard to see and identify them. It requires more cognitive load.
 
Oh gosh - absolutely.  I have had people apologize TO MY HUSBAND for things they do to me, once they realize that I am married.
 
interestingly enough, Im getting more involved with dnd gaming at somethingawful, and they are having a lot of the same problems. male dominated culture that doesnt diversify, and scares off females. so Im feeling more pressure to change the environment there, and seeing the Atheism+ movement as impetus to do the same in all my circles. meshing my feminism with economic justice with my skepticism is a dream come true.
 
Well, I am smarter than all of those peons. That has nothing to do with being an atheist, though.
 
What age is massively old? :)
 
How does this hangout thing work, can I join the conversation?
 
I can't help but feel that Louis is trying to show his noble side.
 
The comments over here at google+ are much less hateful and horrid to read than at the youtube site. Wish I'd gotten this to work 45 minutes ago.
 
http://9gag.com/gag/2929149 a remix of the giving tree, as the racist tree. its a quick thing about using ostracism to improvement a society, and I think it applies here.

thinking more about it, I do think some of the responses in the gaming/con society can be applied here. we're doing a change of the social rules, saying "this is no longer acceptable."

it happens a lot at gaming tables - sometimes you have a player who wants to do things that are way out of line, roleplay rape, sexual harassment, whatever. and a lot of gamers dont know how to deal with it, because they've been socialized not to judge and let everyone get along.

the problem with that, of course, is that you keep the bad people and that scares away the good ones, and shrinks the movement. I really do think this is the same issue - a predominately male organization dealing with the changes in culture and demographics. and you really have to do this by sending the basement dwellers away and saying "no, this is not okay."
 
I think this whole kerfuffle thingie is really interesting and I can't help thinking that the fact that we have this debate at all really counts favourably on the atheist/skeptic movement. What other community tolerates dissent on this level?
 
I have to refresh to see new comments? :(
 
my girlfriend is telling me this is really common with her, guys clearing their throat and letting her know that they are approaching. I do the same as a male, so as not to scare by proximity. 
 
Yeah, really annoying, +M. A. Melby .

I only do on those rare occasions where nobody else is around, +Jeremy Hollembaek . Most of the time I bump into people on the streets, it's in crowded city streets with lots of people around. In those situations it'd be more threatening to announce your presence.
 
Thanks for the hangout, I've gtg to work. Bye all.
 
The main reason I'll use the "n" word is to discuss the corpus of NWA (speaking of things that are blatantly anti-feminist). And honestly, I think we should bring back "honkey" and "ofay".
 
You can skip refreshing the main site by clicking on your red notifications in the upper right hand corner. You'll get refreshed comments on the sidebar.
 
Or, to put it another way, the freedom to do something is not the same as the freedom to do something without consequences. 
 
I very much agree that we can be inclusive to women XOR be inclusive to misogynists
 
its accurate though. people who want to maintain their privelege and/o refuse to recognize their privelege
 
I don't think anyone outwardly claims to want a "boys' club" - but they don't understand what dynamics characterize a "boys' club" and have no clue that they want one.
 
Read the FT blogs, Emanuel Landeholm
 
Our community thrives on dissent. It is the very life blood of skepticism.
 
Thanks for this, PZ and everyone else here.
 
yeah, wicked excited. Im going to head to the local atheist group and spread some +
 
as an aside - we should have a wiki commando make an atheism+ page
 
Pretty cool. Looking forward to the next one so I can be there in real time.
 
Jennifer - I'd be sad if you bowed out. I think your idea is a good one, and the reaction very telling. Not prescribing what you should do - advice isn't my strong suit, but thank you for bringing it up in a way that people can't ignore.
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