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New research shows there may be better ways to discipline children. Here's how to make those timeouts work better: http://on.wsj.com/UwiV44

Credit: Mike Right for The Wall Street Journal
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340 comments
 
Get the Gov't. out of our personal lives. This is a good example of communism. Do this instead of that. I WILL DO AS I PLEASE. THIS COUNTRY IS STILL MOSTLY FREE. Parents- get a handle on what IS Really happening. The rest of you-sheeple- WAKE UP!
Joe Lopez
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What perfect world is this?
 
The first comment makes no sense.
 
As much as I disliked my mother for the spankings I received, I can honestly look back and thank her for making me the man I am today. I believe that lessons like these and the fear that parents have to discipline their children is leading to the over medicating (e.g. - Ritalin) of today's kids and will only cause more problems in the future.
 
+Tracy Hurley I think it means the child should conform to the national shoe tying standard of 5 seconds.
 
+Tracy Hurley never mind, I thought you meant the first point on the image. You're right, that comment makes no sense.
 
That whole graphic makes little sense to me.  Is it saying things you should not do..like "yell" but then its okay to whine along with the child, which seems like a bad idea also.  Practicing a tantrum?  I have no idea what that even means. 
 
I'm getting a strong Scientology vibe from this article. I don't like it.
 
Timeout? When I was a kid and acted up I didn't get a timeout, I got butt whooping.
 
I deserved the majority of the butt whoppins I received.
 
From the comments above, I get the feeling that most people didn't understand what it says.
It is not what the government or Scientology or the communists want you to do; it is what research shows that it works. You are of course free to do whatever else you want, or ignore it completely. That doesn't change the point - this works better than other things.
It's not about liking or not liking the points - it's about realizing what works. You may not like that two plus two equals four, but it still does.
 
how come children tend to be influence by bad behaviour easily than good behaviour.
 
I use parenting psychology with common sense, I have to say I think it works. I m not a communist or a scientologist I m a pragmatist using what I think works. 
 
time out is not replacement for a good old fashion but whooping
 
I think applying the techniques from Dog Whisperer on kids age 6 and below will probably work better.
 
Thanks for telling me when i shouldn't cooperate!
 
spankings and he threat of them will cure most any disobedience almost immediately.
 
It is funny to me that people talk about how they got whooped and they are great, but kids today are terrible, but you are the parents that have raised these terrible kids.

Of course I don't buy into the whole belief that this generation is any worse than the previous. These complaints have been recorded going back to Plato (true story)

That been said, what the hell is practice a tantrum?
 
+Michael Brokate that may be the case for you, but not everyone. These comments are all silly. Parenting is a unique thing between kids and parents. There are agreed lines where no one should cross, e.g. abuse and neglect, but aside from that every parent is different.

These conversations are not helpful in the slightest. If you want to spank your kids then that's up to you and the laws in your country.  Personally I've never smacked my kids and they're fine, but that's me.

So rather than take sides on an issue, this one is best left alone.
 
+Gareth Robins Smacking and spanking are two different things. Smacking is normaly a hit to the face which is not disciplinary but disrespectful nd degrading. Spanking is hard but not to painful actions on a childs rear. I've met 3 kids who have turned out ok w/o them the rest are normally jerks. 
 
It's great to know that many people even now still agree with the traditional parenting methods, which are far from child abuse, which is another case, completely. I appreciate all the spankings I've gotten as a kid.
 
In this comment section, people who physically abuse their kids or were physically abused, get upset with a popular science article. Despite the fact that studies have shown violence negatively impacts children, we should probably trust the anecdotes of strangers on the Internet and stick with beating kids...

I was never hit as a kid and I turned out fine. Hitting your kids is both wrong and lazy. If you have real evidence to prove otherwise, be my guest, but otherwise your stories read like testimonies in a child abuse trial. 
 
I was never spanked, i was reasoned with. No parking tickets either, like an earlier comment, and no desire to go out and buy an AK-47. Different children demand different methods. No one size fits all. However, behavioral deviations must be addressed immediately.
 
+Gareth Robins the most sensible comment I've read so far... most people seem to want a "one size fits all" approach - it's all too easy to take the violent approach, and that gets passed along from generation to generation as "the solution".
 
+Ian Chisholm Spanking is not physically abusing them. Smacking them or hitting them when your drunk is.

What proof do you have that spanking is going to cause a negative impact if done correctly?
 
All I can add is that this infographic is incredibly culturally conditioned. They do things differently here in Thailand and the children are much better behaved.
 
Well let's see here.  When kids were spanked, they were better behaved and took responsibility for their actions.  Granted, they lied to try to avoid the punishments, but they took em when they got em. 

Today, we don't spank out kids, they show no respect, they blame everyone else for their behaviors, they avoid punishments, responsibilities and anything else they don't feel like doing.  If you threaten to punish them, they threaten to call the police.  So, which is better ?  A sore ass, or kids running wild ?
 
I have no scientific proof to back me up, but from what i have seen, 50% of spankings are done to discipline the kid, and the other 50% to vent the rage of the parent for the wrongdoing of said kid. It must be extremely difficult ( i have never done it) to administer a well paced spanking, with enough pain to pass the message, but not enough to leave indelible psychological marks for the future, especially when you are mad for the wrongdoing at that particular moment.
 
+Carlos Jaen the later is not a spanking thats abuse.  Its not that hard really.  Just hit hard enough so that they fear the action but not hard enough to fear you.  ALWAYS ALWAYS follow up with some loving on time and a explanation on WHY they were spanked.  Without that the child grows bitter. 
 
Beating me as a kid made me rebel worse. They beat me and said no, I responded with you just don't fucking learn do ya bitch. I fought back. Fuck parents who think beating helps. A backhand might be called for once or twice in a childhood, but I hate you people who justify hitting a kid like it did you good. It doesn't fucking help, you ended up doing good because you fucking chose to, not because you got hit.
 
Whining back at my son never turned to laughter, but he became embarrassed and knew he was going to get less of his way than before. Using reason and logic with a child works famously, unfortunately I don't know many parents who seem to have reason and logic. Lastly, I thought you 'practice' something to get better at it.
 
And this is why we have a group of entitled worthless brats growing up. Be a real parent, raise your children, discipline them and don't give in. 
 
I think reasoning is a good way to go, unless the kid gets disrespectful.  Then it's on!! Anyway, as far as studies go, all of a sudden they always have to come out with some new profound knowledge that defies the old.  Yet the old ways are proven ways.  And didn't Dr. Spock or some such person come out with a popular study that suggested parents withhold all affection from their children?  
 
I'm a firm believer in corporal punishment . It's because of corporal punishment I know there are limits to what is considered susceptible behavior . What's crazy is I can "Stand My Ground" , but Heaven help me if I spank my kid . I punish my kid today so society won't have to tomorrow .
 
i got a leather belt to the bare ass
 
I don't believe in guilt tripping as a parental tactic.
 
Practice tantrums, whine while child whines? What idiot photo shoped this parenting poster? Spare the rod spoil the child!
 
LOL Reasoning with a toddler. Do these morons even have children?
 
Fun fact, when you read ancient Greek literature, they wrote about how the children of their day were corrupted or rebelling. Every generation since the dawn of time thinks the current generation are brats. It has nothing to do with beating kids or not.

+Michael Brokate it's towards the end of the article, but from what I've learned about comment sections, most of you haven't bothered to read beyond the headline. 
 
If you are in a mood where you are angry, wait before spanking them, but do spank them.  The generation that is coming up in the usa is pathetic.  There are teen girls who cry rape when they get caught having sex, teen boys who think they can do whatever they want and are shocked when they end up in jail.  Spanking is needed sometimes as well as other punishments.  My mom was a foster parent for 20 years and I got to see all these kids and parents look so shocked when they ended up in jail.  I even had one kid (not foster kid) threaten me.  Said he was going to kill me.  I spanked him at the age of 13 and he never gave me another moments grief. 
 
Speaking of sex. I dont remember back in the black and white days, that spanking was part of the sexual rituals. There must be a connection there !
 
My wife's kids ignore, disrespect, and one of them has even smacked her in the face.  Why do they do this?  Because she DOESN'T discipline them the way our parents use to discipline us.  I've never spanked her kids, but they know to respect me and just me threatening to spank them settles them down in a heartbeat.  Perhaps it's respect, perhaps it's fear, whatever it is they have towards me works wonders.  The wife doesn't understand this so when her kids are in jail, on drugs, or whatever else I'm going to tell her....I told you so!
 
Right, corporal punishment works. I mean, other species do it, right? So the next time one of you misbehaves at work, your boss should come by your cubicle and spank you. And then your spouse when you get home, too. Or maybe the cop should pull out the baton and give you a swift one instead of writing you a ticket the next time you get pulled over for speeding. 
 
This is the stupidest crap advice I have ever seen.
 
+David Zapata sounds like a great marriage and a wonderful, supportive family you have insert sarcastic note. If they end up in jail, on drugs, or whatever you can take credit as well. Being smug and telling your wife "I told you so" just makes you a d-bag. Maybe you should think about helping to improve the situation without resorting to threats of physical violence. Hitting others to gain control only shows a lack of intelligence on the part of the hitter.
 
Teach them. Be a mentor. Be stern yet sometimes forceful, then tell them how much you love them. Don't hit them unless they hit you. You must teach consequences of actions, and the humility of remorse. Be loving, but not soft. Teach caring, as well as loss. To be cherished, while showing respect.

It's a tough job, and no one will be perfect, but please teach diversity. Pain, love, loss, caring, anger, humor, passion and pride.

Teach it all, and be honest. This is the only way to connect and be true to your legacy.

We have yet just one life, but can live forever through our children. They are the eternal life we all seek.

 
Really +Tracy Hurley MY COMMENT MAKES NO SENSE. Try this on for size. You have shown your colors and that is a DEAD giveaway. I should let you know that there are a few entities roaming around that know the TRUTH and then there are those Like You. My words vibrate the TRUTH. Not yours. OM.
 
I find joining in on the whining works well, and keep a you from wanting to lay down the whoop!!
 
what ever ur a homo staright up for saying that because i  was abused and you had to make fun of it so go to ur little hole and stay  there
Andy B.
 
Very interesting !
 
Perhaps I'll give this a shot.  Though I do enjoy being the disciplinarian.
 
Dad and Mom have to be King And Queen Children are children of their kingdom. Discipline Shepherding first Spanking last.
 
Stop turning your children into whiney little babies. Beat the crap out of them for God's sake and set them straight. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to beat them every time they sneeze. I'm not an animal. I'm saying that a good slap on the wrist and backside will set them straight. Like a computer restart button. :)
 
Isn't research how we got "time out". Based on the way our society is going I'm thinking that it isn't working....
 
Practice a tantrum .... practicing right now... 
 
Better assume murder against my parents. As discipline methods on me was with loaded guns aiming at me, hammers slamming in top of my head, and striking me with a machete
 
And you wonder why so many kids nowadays have 0 respect for others and lack knowledge of how to behave in public. This is garbage.
 
This is a bunch of baloney in my book. Good discipline is not supposed to be pleasant. Commercials make parents look stupid and the child smarter, yes, even the Disney Channel. 
 
Communism? I don't think that word means what you think it means. --stolen from the princess bride
 
Yeah this sound great and all but you haven't met Mexican parents yet.....
 
Fuckn retarded.... Spank that ass....take away the smartphone, Wii etc...this kinda shit is the reason kids these days walk all over their parents!
 
+Dean Montague - you're more than welcomed to come live my life, take care of the kids, support them, etc, etc, etc.  Until you've walked in my shoes you can't say crap about my life.  
 
The article from the WSJ is based on decades of social science research. All of this research has shown that beating children leads to relationship problems, and increases likelihood of the child behaving violently towards others. The graphic reflects suggestions that are part of the parenting tool kit that have been shown to be effective. I really hope that those supporting violence against children are just trolling and not real parents. 
 
+Giovanni calabrese Hitting your computer isn't good for it. And if you restart it the. It doesn't learn from its mistake.
 
I agree with the "Being too impatient" one. My mom will tell me to do something and I'll sit on the couch for an extra second then slowly start to get up, and she'll scream at me. 
 
That's bullshit. Simply spank and it works. Usually you only have to do it once...
 
Wow. None of that would prepare a child for real life or create inner strength. Are parents today that preoccupied with trying to be their child's friend instead of their guardian? Always be suspicious when someone wants to throw out all the wisdom learned in 10,000+ years.
 
All of these steps are taken from normal life of Indians and South Asian people.
 
are you you that all work well?
 
This is a psychological research, you don't have to agree with it because it is base on statistics. It is not to tell you the exact solution but what is more likely works. Take this as a reference, experience it with your kid with attention and love. Figure out which one works and which is not. a good parent always willing learn to be better and not totally ignore any advice like this. But,no matter what your opinion, it is already show that you care
 
+Clayton Astroturf well, you know if a cop busted your knee caps for speeding, i bet you would never speed again.

+JD Lindsay you know if the penalty for crimes for more sever the crime rate in the USA might drop....just my opinion.

+Hugh MacLeod thousand of years of spankings can't be wrong.

Ofcourse, these are all my thoughts.  im not an 'expert' with all the funny little letters after my name.
 
Physical abuse doesn't lead to trust but fear. You get what you give.
 
Great comment +Hugh MacLeod. My thought is internet trolls strike again. The simple truth is beating your kids is taking the easy way out and lazy parenting.

Are you surprised that the child corrects his behavior temporarily when you smack him on the back of the head or wrist, but it's temporary. I got spanked as a kid and my Mom has told me that she regrets it. She was a single parent and most of the times i got spanked it was because she was tired and frustrated, it tought me NOTHING!

You can reason with even a 2-3 year old (i have one, i know you can, just lower your expectations). Quick points...
1- Yes. Kids are distracted very easily, give them a few seconds to try. Give yourself a few more minutes to get ready to leave the house. 
2- Practice a tantrum sounds like a great idea. When your kid is calm try and get them to have a tantrum, they'll see how ridiculous it looks.
3- If you ask your kid to hold your hand in a parking lot, it shows them that there is cause for concern. They may even ask you "Why?".

P.S - that's a good thing.

4- I'm totally going to start whining with my kids, sounds like a good idea.
5- Comment on bad behavior but try not to criticize them when they screw up.

These are my thoughts, i have a 2 and a 4 year old and am not a perfect parent but my kids are happy and so are we, and I think that's what counts.
 
When I was growing up here in the south (in the 70's)  there wasn't any such thing as time out.  With this being said, when I had done something wrong, I got my ass tore up with my dads belt, THEN it was explained to me why I got my ass tore up, I didn't do it again, As years have progressed and after a few more ass whippings. Me and my parents get along very well, now theses ass whippings did not occur every minute of the day, It only happened as needed, no abuse, screaming or violence involved. Only used to get my attention rather than sit at a table and told sit there and think about the wrong you have done and why.  And with my children daughter 24, son 13, I DID THE EXACT SAME THING. They would do something wrong, that they knew was wrong, Example: my son had this star wars "light saber" plastic of course, he kept hitting me in the head, Here is how I handled this, I took that light saber plastic toy from him, I said to him; son I asked you to stop and you didn't, I popped his ass once, then I explained to him why I did what I did. Then I hugged him told him I love you, and in years that have passed and only few ass poppings, total between both children 6 times I had to do this. Now you may wander how get along today, I love them, they love me, we spend time togeather everyday. IF I had used the time out method it would have been mannnnny more times compared to 6 times that I have had to correct my children
 
I always whines back to my son when he whines and yes it does changes the context which ended up both of us laughing. For tantrums, I'm not quite sure. Is it suggesting to create a "fake" tantrum scenario so the child would be aware how tantrums look like when they have actual tantrums?
 
Got my ass spanked growing up. Turned out quite OK. Biggest lesson we were taught was respect. Today's youth were born with video games in there hand. Now they expect everything to be handed to them. I say, crack that ass.
 
A lot of people on here mistake respect from spanked kids when it really is fear.

Do you want your kids to be scared of you?

Spanking is a soft soap word - it really means hitting your child who you should be loving and protecting

You can put boundaries in place with out hurting your kid.

Get past the things put parents did to us 
 
+Mark Wheeler sounds like you didn't really try timeouts. Hey, i don't really mind what you have done with your kids (they're your kids it's none of my business) but it just seems to me that being a grown man you might try reasoning with your kids, talk to them. My son does crazy shit like hits me with a light saber and i ask him not to, he does it again and then i tell him he's going in timeout if he does it one more time and he stops. It's sort of context of punishment, to my son, going into timeout is the worst thing that can happen to him, he HATES it. So usually i can threaten him with a timeout and it works. Different strokes.

I feel like i'm getting trolled here....
 
Doesn't only work with children that way...
 
Say what you want about "Time outs", but nothing shows a kid the price for bad behavior like a good old Ass Whooping, preceded of course by "The Look". 
 
It's funny to me how much of a affect spanking had on me. I say whooped,whipped,wore out and beat. I was paddeled or spanked. Big difference than abused or physical violence, the two most common child scared phrases I see in this topic and so many others. Dont be afraid to dicipline you're child. I love my parents for it and my kids love me. So whip that ass when they want mind tear that rear end up!!!! Skin that hide!!!! WHOOP THAT BUTT! What I got and what I give is a far cry from abuse. My kids follow me around like ducks.
 
The first comment is the reason humans must should not be permitted to breed misery by default. No one has an intrinsic right to hijack life out of the ether to abuse, molest, ruin and then dump the liability of a child raised with passion onto a Society drowning in passionately Sane crimes (like castrating The One and Only, and other profitable acts like that).

The first commenter wants the government to stop suggesting via the media? He's the product of the Patron system. You literally couldn't patronise him enough. Sterilisation is the only humane option that remains. 
Franc T
 
What kind of dumbass motherfucker does it take to make up this shit?
 
Spankings and teaching children life isn't fair from a young age is the road to salvation. This everyone gets a trophy crap has to stop, or kids will never learn how to deal with adverse situations.
 
+Franc T - with that sort of tone and post , perhaps you should go back to Facebook...
 
I tried some of these when they first talked about these back in the 1980's and some worked most did not. This so called research is old and has not been proven to anymore effective then tried and true parenting. Remember you are the parent and they are the child, you can encourage by example and discipline. It is how it has been done for over five or more millennia.
 
Sometimes it is a good idea to associate bad behavior with an ever so slight tap on the posterior immediately after the occurrence. Kids get that. That is not abuse. That's aversion therapy!
 
I did all these with my kids but they still turned delinquent...
 
+Barry Baker My children praise me . They have friends who cling to me. Respect is earned brother disipline is taught. You have to do what you want them to do. Act the way you want them to act. Be who you want them to be.
 
let simply this.  When your pet pisses on the floor, do you piss on the floor too?  No! you rub their nose it, tell them BAD in a louder voice, and swat their ass once or twice.

When your kids were little little, didn't you slap their hands and tell them NO.  Its the same thing.
Franc T
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I'm not sure if any of you understand how human beings work..especially children. Coddling leads to the spoiled types found today, while too strict and disciplinary parents cause children to come out just as bad. If maybe you worked with your own judgement depending on the situation instead of a pretty cartoon to tell you how to be a parent, you and your kids would be somewhere. Don't just beat em or tell them no. But don't let them get away with it either. Try communicating with your kid, something that you are all probably too lazy or afraid to fucking do. 
 
We're all fighting over whether spanking is good or not, and quite honestly, it's getting ridiculous! I was never spanked, and currently, I think I'm not bad. My friends, however, never spanked, and half of them are FEARED by their own PARENTS. So in some cases, spanking is helpful/positive, but in others, other approaches work better.
I really have no opinion as to which one is 'better' because every child is different. That's just the way it is.
 
I guarantee this was written by a non-parent. 
 
+Clayton Astroturf if a cop was allowed to baton me for speeding I would be much less inclined to do so. I'll take a ticket and speed off....
 
+David Chace considering that I'm pushing 30, I can't say that I remember 50 years back, but I do agree with you. The ass whipping days probably started to end because a few parents took it way too far or someone with some serious issues from the start started to blame their parents spanking them as a child for how they are and kept to it as a scapegoat and it turned into a national frenzy. 
 
Everyone has the right to do anything. And you have the right to hear it or not. If you dislike what you hear or see that is your personal taste's. You have very little right to stop it. You only get that right when those that agree with you, then tour count needs to bigger than there account needs to be greater than there's.
 
I don't think the people who come up with this comedy have children. Or any clue what it takes to instill good values and traits in a young person. There are no timeouts in real life and our job as parents is to provide our children with the tools to survive as productive positive and strong adults in real life situations. Coddling them produces nothing but what we see already in our welfare and prison system today. Be a parent and take control of your children for your children's sake defy this dribble made up by some person who is afraid of coming to terms with reality and help build a better generation of people that we can actually rely on to make decisions for this country and world
 
got it.
But now i need to have children to inculcate discipline in them.
Who's gonna help?
Franc T
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I have a nephew, which is probably as close as having a child I will ever get. I don't mind when he swears or if he watches "bad movies". What I do to ensure he is a good person I help him understand what is wrong and right. That is something neither his mother or grandmother bother to teach him, and Definitely not his father or grandfather..He's a really smart kid, and he has a strong sense of justice, and very emotionally sensitive. If he saw this instruction manual for lazy parents, he would know what crap it is. Freedom is an extremely valuable thing to kids, especially teenagers like myself. Take it away in the most subtle way and we notice, but keeping the freedom and understanding what in entails is something that most parents and kids don't understand.
 
+Dean Holyer Learn some grammar. Your point did not come across because you can't write. Try again. 
 
I was physically and mentally abused (not sexually, thankfully) as a child, ending up with permanent injuries. So no one has to tell me about hitting children.

Yet when I got my own sons, yes I physically punished them, but it’s got to be age appropriate and with love. You can’t reason with a toddler, so when he wants to run out onto a busy street, a quick pain to the rear end is preferable than having a car do the punishment. Two or three times were all that was needed. When the boys were old enough to reason, the “spanker” (a special bendy switch that couldn’t cause permanent injury) was retired.

I got many compliments on how well behaved and respectful were my sons, Even children need to be treated with respect, so they learn to respect others.

Oh, not watching TV also helped.
 
Floyd did you bother to read all 5 or just the one's on yelling and tantrums which are a bit lame but as a parent who raised my kids up to be some damn  good  adults the other 3 are spot on good advice admittedly the rod has it time and place too and yes we have all kinds of timeouts in life
 
This is some straight up bull shit. That doesn't work just look at the generation of children being produced under this crap.
 
Not so many new idea from it.
Franc T
 
Oh boy thats another thing..television. The amount of mindless crap an average american teenager sees on mtv is astonishing. They have so deftly crafted and entire generation based upon money music and rich, wasteful, careless, uneducated, over spoiled, american youths who shovel on the makeup and wear their pants at crotch level. Why? I understand "rebellious trends" and such but what about these people is appealing? Why do you like them? Oh yeah, because your friend told you to. Who told them? The fat white guy with his pockets brimming with cash and coke.
 
Yes i read all of them and i am going off not only what is written here but what ive seen in the media and from parents lately. I applaud you for your success with your children but too many parents today are afraid to engage their children or actually use discipline effevtively. And no i am not saying to beat your children or that all children are the same. That said my point is generally parenting today is reliant on unfounded "research" done by whom? By the way. Instead of tried and true parenting. There are no timeouts in life brother, bills have to be paid on time work has to be done the world keeps moving. Consequences are very real and the idea is to help them realize this before they have to find out the hard way. 
 
..just old fashion ass whipping,,,,that handle that.
 
LOL at all the people getting bent out of shape over this article. Uptight much?
 
I agree with a few who took the whoopings and came out ahead, but most of those who thought their parents were being mean by doing it, are the ones that have the bad ass kids of this generation 
 
I agree deeply. I love my parents but i just have to say, "you were kids too once- long time ago".
 
Mmm, my kids love me, and I love them. We use time-outs when appropriate. But most of the time they are perfectly content during this time-out and just read. Not very effective deterrent. Not letting them have a book? That is greater abuse in my opinion.

My 3 year old son is adorable. But he is 3. You cannot reason with a 3 year old half the time. What if he is in the tub and reaches for the hot water faucet which could scald him. Perhaps I should hover over him and prevent him from touching it? He would never learn. I explain it's hot, tell him not to touch several times. After 3 or 4 times, I swat his hand firmly and speak sternly, "No." Lesson learned, and no burned child. Kids move like lightning ... If he was burned or scalded badly, then I failed in my parenting. Did I beat my child? Did I invoke fear and break his will? If you think so, you are in my opinion a bad parent.
 
The lower right has me the most worried because most parents equate 'praise' with 'reward' when it comes to good, or rather expected, behavior. As soon as parents reward expected behavior such as not screaming in public the child begins to learn that they are in control instead of the parent. 
 
"This is a good example of communism" ?
Yeah, I sooo remember Stalin issuing guidance on parenting. How about the road safety guide issued by chairman Mao?
The simple fact is that there are people who will benefit from this. Please don't bring out the communist bogeyman as you just embarrass yourself.
 
+Tom Broad

I'm not quite sure if you're promoting the following out pointing out that they're ludicrous?

"a popular thought stream in the literature is to make the consequences link to the crime (...child smoking, make them smoke until they spew, child hits other child with stick, break Childs hands)"

For good reasons these two things are offences under child protection legislation in all English speaking First World countries and most other First World countries.

While the general principles of consistency and appropriateness of response work with dogs, humans have a greater ability to reason and consider both future and past events. Consequently the forms of discipline (and I do not include physically hitting as a form of discipline) required to manage children ought to attend to their ability to conceptualise events.

Spanking - which is a phrase used to avoid saying striking or  hitting - is so ineffective and counter productive as to be useless. It's more an expression of an adults wish to greater control or an expression of exasperation - which most parents experience. It's unnecessary in any event to the point I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

The failure to include it as an option merely ensures more effective and appropriate methods of response are focused on. Adults who consider it as an option are more likely to use it as a means of ensuring control. It causes no harm to children to not hit them.

Other than that, I'd agree with the general theme of consistency.
 
I think some people on this list need to get over the idea that they have rights over their children rather than responsibilities to them.

You have no obvious right to physically assault your children - spanking is just that. Sure there'll be a whole lot who want to argue the point, but there's no difference.

The only difference is in the relationship. Those adults who think they should be allowed to hit someone - children - are similar in their views to those who think they should be able to hit subordinates or their wives:

I have a right because...I'm the boss/parents/adult.

It's not violence because I love them...LOL. This one I love. I love you so much I want to hit you. You MADE me hit you.

Where have we heard that before.

As for 'hitting children works'. Nope. Doesn't. Merely makes people view violence as a means to solve problems and makes most people resent their parents and others who can be violent to them.

The relationship between violent adults and violence in the family is so well known and shown in research to clearly provide evidence that 'hitting children' is not a productive means of managing behaviour.

Before the predictable responses comes in:

Married to a clin psych with 20 years experience in working with children and their families.

Me: Three years working with juvenile offenders
15 years in working in child protection (forgotten how many court cases)
4 years in working in sexual assault
Two degrees, (one research degree in child abuse) and teaching experience to boot.
Three school age kids. Hit none of them. None of them are prostitutes, mass murders, killers or drug addicts - yet.

...and no, I'm sure there's nothing wrong with you even though your parents hit you. Wish I had a dollar for everyone who said that to me.
Tolu Ay
 
"Please, hold my hands"? Really? You know you are in trouble when you start prefixing your sentences with "please" and "do you mind . . ." when addressing your kids - It gives them false sense of choice and free-will.

hold my hand! Get in the car!! Pick up your shoes! Then he knows who's boss!!
 
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Proverbs 22:15 ...just sayin'. The rod of correction used here was a reed of sorts used for whacking the back of the knee or the hand to get a child's attention, not to draw blood or beat them to a pulp. All things are to be done for the glory of God, especially raising well-behaved children. 
 
+Bryan Robinson How about quoting the part that comes before it. This is called a 'metaphor'.

The bible actually points out that discipline 'is the rod'. Not 'the rod' is discipline.

It talks about the 'rod of discipline' and thus it's a metaphor.  More so, there's not evidence of any form of physical 'rod' mentioned.
Tolu Ay
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+Patrick Elliott-Brennan

Are you suggesting that it's not within a parent's right (responsibility) to discipline a child?

The notion that spanking doesn't work is obviously not always true. Spanking worked for me and depravation or other forms of discipline didn't.

Why is it that physical punishments in the military and sports works just fine but it's taboo to some at home?
 
This is crazy!! Well i think our children are out of control but i feel as though its everyones call between parents and the community and are crazy Society children exposed to so much nowadays they can't help but be corrupt to some extent and that is everyone fault spankings are useful but at the same time should not be our only solutions we must look at why children do the things they do not temporarily fix a problem by using violence
Nick G
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The younger generation is certainly that....... young and dumb. They always are. What makes this different than any other time is that society (in America anyways) is structured to where families do not spend time together and enjoy each other's company like they used to. Fathers used to teach everything to their sons and mothers to their daughters. Now the moral imperative is to get jobs and work yourselves to death and that absolves us of the REAL HARD job of actually spending time with our children. Providing for your family used to mean that the head of the household was responsible for the brunt of the backwork for sure but was not expected to do it alone. The family worked as a unit where every person had a function that was old enough to walk and talk. Children are just as rebellious as they always were but they have a disconnect with the real world that is unknown to past generations. They are ignored while the public schools, television, and internet raise our kids for us.  Then they are told to get out when they are 18 with little to no skills, love, or sense of appreciation for refined things. I know that is not everyone and it may not even be the majority, but the trend is certainly widespread and growing.

This more than just a point of contention about to spank or not to spank. It is about recognizing that being a provider and a care giver are nowhere near the same thing and being one does not absolve you of the responsibility of the other, and that sacrifices may have to be made individually and as a society if we are going to fix this. This is about the fact that we have gotten so far out of touch that we are even having this conversation about how best to LOVE our children. Do we really need to be taught not to be a kind, genuine, and creative with our children by some newspaper article? I read another scientific article today where scientists "proved" that caffeine wakes you up..... Really? You think?
 
Send those bad kids to my country or any small country, let me tell you they will come back so straight you won't believe it! :o)
Josh B
 
The spoon was always on top of the fridge.
All my parents had to do was step toward it an me and my siblings would stop what ever it was we where doing at the time.
 
Ur wrong Nick G every generation did something bad you can't call this generation young and dumb that makes no sense I'm sure your generation has faults just as much as the current generation every generation has flaws and everything a racin before thought it was a better generation the next I think it's just human nature to think that your generation is better than everyone else
 
+Emoree Hyman Exactly.  One of my favourite teachers in elementary school told me to be VERY careful of anyone who talks about "the good old days".  The "good old days" were more violent, more racist, more sexist, and more homophobic than the world we live in today. Frankly, we'd be lucky if in exchange for losing all of that, we gained a few bratty kids (if we even pretend those didn't exist in the "good old days").
 
What most of the people commenting forget is an ass whooping can have your child grow up messed up, you have to have common sense and make the punishment fit the crime. Can't go the the belt for everything, but you can make them think you will whoop their ass everything.
 
Next thing they are going to recommend is no beatings
 
+Perry Madison careful you'll have a flame war over that one :P 

Sad part is parents have zero integrity, while kids are little we need to take responsibility for our kids, and actually teach what consequences are.  I have 5 kids (all boys) and the ones that are old enough know who's boss...
 
THIS ACTUALLY FREAKIN WORKS!
WHO KNEW?
 
+Priv Hudson ???
What the hell does that mean?
...Screw that, I don't think I want to know
 
You guys need to stop arguing. No ones going to win, and even if someone does it won't matter. It's just a gosh darn post. There are more distressing things in the world to get worked up over then something the wall street journal says.
 
Bernie Mac said it best "the problem is these punk ass parents". Instead of letting the kid tell you what to do, you tell them what to do. Timeout...that's just time for them kids to think of some more I'll shit to do. The beat methods I've found with my child and from my own parents is put the fear of God in em. I'm 36 and I'm thank full for EVERY ass whiping I ever received growing up. Cause not only did it teach me to respect my mom and dad but it also taught me to respect others as well as myself. And my son got the same treatment at an early age as well. I have 0 problems with him cause he knows DADDY DON'T PLAY. Now, I'm not saying just senless beating and ass whippings just to be doing it. But there comes a time when as a parent you HAVE to put your foot down. And when I say put your foot down, I mean put it down so hard a toe nail or two pops off. If not, your child will be running your life. Jus saying...
 
How about "Because I Said So"? It worked on me.
 
+Lee Lytle Thanks for keeping me and the police forces, hospitals and medical staff in business.

If you reach the point where you thought physical violence was the solution to your problem, you passed the point at which you ought to change your behaviour so far back it can't be seen in the rear vision of life.

There's no evidence whatsoever that this approach works in the community at large and lots to show it merely encourages violence in all forms of social life.
 
Some countries have banned corporal punishment. They haven't descended into the anarchy predicted by conservatives. Instead they are some of the least violent most respected countries in the world. Ok an occasional slap for dangerous behaviour given coldly rather than in temper might be acceptable, but reaching for a belt everytime someone misbehaves is simply cruel. 
 
+Rutuja Pasalkar SF The photo is too simplified and probably misleading. The link of the post leads to the article and it worth reading.
 
New research shows => it's true. #Lol  The Western civilization is doomed.
 
Discipline by example and let the mirror neurons do the rest
 
Thts is 4 small child nt 4 us.......
 
+Peter Quezada IT IS the finest grade of propaganda that I've seen in 50 years. The last time I saw something like this was when a little Germany fellow wrote a book. Sound familiar to anyone? 
 
I can't read anything because resolution of photo is very very poor.
 
+Tolu Ay 

Are you associating training for the SAS with a child living at home?

Interesting.

Physical abuse is not allowed in the military of any First World country. Nor do professional sports players expect to be physically struck by their coaches - they'd sue...and win.

Furthermore. I don't see any relationship between choosing a career in the military and being born.

The vast majority of research indicates 'violence begets violence' and like charity, violence starts in the home.

The research also shows the following. Lower the level of violence in the home and you lower the violence in the community.

All the comments about 'things are so bad now' are really the utterances of people who have not read any history.
 
"Parenting is parenting and parenting is parenting"
 
+Sean Montague 

Most Western European countries are or have banned physical abuse as a means of a parents expression of 'love' cough.

I don't see high level of violence or anarchy in those countries either. It would appear some people here wish to visit violence because they experienced it and 'it dun me no 'arm' - which is patently not true as they are intent on being violent to children.

After more than 25 years in the field and some years of research, there's nothing new under the sun when it comes to arguments as to why hitting children is a good idea.

I like the ones who say "So you think hitting a child once will make the violent?" As if. Or those who say "The kids these days...<insert 'get off my garden' type comments>".  If only they'd get out and read...or maybe stay IN and read.
 
+Tom Broad if you have a look at my second post I think you'll find the answers to the questions you posed earlier.

As for my personal history  - pfttt. Don't be silly. That is trolling.

If you had training (and I don't mean some attendance at a certificate course) in the area of child protection, you'd know that hitting children is just that - hitting them. You'd also be aware of the research which clearly shows that if you rarely hit your children, you probably didn't need to anyway making the activity redundant.
 
I was surprised that +The Wall Street Journal print something about raising kids. This is more fitting for a weekend family edition of a local paper.
 
Good one! Three out of five I comply with.
 
With one exception, all of the kids that I know (7) who weren't disciplined have turned out to be losers, all still bludging on their parents and society between seven and twelve years out of school. I regret having disciplined my kids and probably would not do it second time around but I'm glad that they turned out OK and don't hate me for it.
 
Im sensing all the child abuse pouring out from a number of people's comments. Sad really.
 
in brief, use your reason not your emotions
 
You are a kid, Saul Vales. Consider waiting until you have gained some life experience before passing judgement.
 
+Patrick Elliott-Brennan. The western countries that have banned corporal punishment haven't became anarchies they have became communist. So stop doing lenin's work by doling out sensible parenting advise and go and save the world from Marxism by skelping a few innocent children. Some posters deserve sarcasm. 
 
Not all true, Sean. Sweden is not communist but they do have an interesting history worth mentioning. In the 30 years since corporal punishment was outlawed, violent crime has increased 200%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden
The section on Youth delinquency and crimes by children against children is worth a close look.
 
Afghanistan should be a duplicate of Mayberry, then. Unless of course correlation does not equal causation. 
 
+Jim Munro  Interesting link.

Here some more information which explains some of the discrepancy

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/europe/sweden.html

It's the part that starts:

The discrepancies between the data reported to the United Nations for 1997 and those reported to INTERPOL for 2001 are partly explained by Sweden’s peculiar method of reporting murder and assault. Murders reported to INTERPOL included both attempted and completed acts of murder, while "major assaults" included both simple and aggravated assaults. These statistical anomalies for Sweden actually obscure the actual low to moderate rate of the most serious crimes (murder, aggravated assault, rape, and robbery), and this point is important. Sweden actually prioritizes its treatment of crime in the criminal justice system giving priority to the serious crimes, and often diverting property crimes to out of court settlement by the police or prosecutors, often in the form of "day-fines."
 
To those that have spanked their kids, I assume you have never had to spank them again for the same thing as the lesson had been learnt? So for example your child refuses to tidy their room. You spank them, from then on they always tidy their room without question? If yes, which in the majority of cases if think is not the case, then your method has worked. However if you have had to spank them again for the same 'crime' then what has actually been achieved by the first spank, other than upsetting and hurting your kids, making them fear you a little more and possibly love you a little less?
 
No need to be nice to me, Patrick, we agree on most things. :)

It shouldn't matter how the stats are compiled, the point is that whatever the recorded baseline was in the 80's, the incidence of crime has tripled over the 30 years since then. Corporal punishment was outlawed in Sweden around that time.

It's just something for you to consider, perhaps things might not be as cut and dried as you think.
 
 
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Always a fan of hearing more on positive discipline..
 
+Tom Broad

"There are people in the industry who are violently opposed to any physical discipline, but usually they are the ones who have been physically abused as children"

...and your evidence for this is??? Usually? Given the absolute majority of people have been hit at least one by their parents and this was more the case say 50 years ago, then it's a bit of a pointless comment to make that people who were 'abused' become involved in the industry. Most people were.

I know a huge number of people in the field. The vast majority would argue against hitting children. So does the vast majority of research. A simple reflection on the material shows this.

Sure there are some people here and there who may say otherwise, but they're in the minority and are a minority in peer reviewed research as well.

"I would point out you are resorting to personal attacks in your posts, which is indicative to me that you see the logic, you just can't quiet the "fight" left in you."

Really? Glad to know you know so much. Again, this is called trolling.

"note at no time did I advocate spanking your child as a sole form of discipline, but as a single, effective, "tool" in a "toolbox" of many." I recall pointing out that it's generally ineffective and pointless.  There are more effective ways of managing children and it's best to remove those that have a greater potential for counter-productivity.

Showing respect for children doesn't include hitting them. In fact it's contrary.

I don't believe that infrequent hitting of children causes them serious long term mental health problems. I do believe that if one claims to have respect for ones children, then you'd avoid doing it.

One  cannot claim respect from a child while using physical violence against them. Again, it's contrary.
 
I'm guessing you do not have children, Patrick,
 
+Jim Munro

Three children.

Two degrees. One post grad research degree - MA(Hons) - focusing on psych and sociological research, anthropological studies and economic factors involved in child abuse, as well as more recent neural plasticity research. 25+ years in child protection including working with juvenile offenders and in sexual assault, lecturing at a tertiary (university) level, training health staff and so on.

Wife is a Clin Psych (one undergrad degree with Hons, two post grad research degrees including honours) specialising in children and families.

Other than that, not much idea really ;)
 
How old are the children?
 
+Jim Munro Young.

6, 9 and 11 going on 21 ;))

The middle child always had middle child syndrome - from birth :))

He always been the busy, doing stuff 'didn't hear you' one.

LOL
 
I just get a kick out of the "kids got a butt whooping 50 years ago and behaved, now they don't and they're terrible" comments above.

Because clearly NOTHING else has changed in that equation in the past 50 years.

Stuff like this almost all boils down to people taking personal offence that they are either raising their kids wrong, or that their parents raised them wrong. The rest is the fringe who refuse to accept reality and the fact things have changed, believing that all societies problems can be fixed if we revert everything in society back to the way it was when they grew up.
 
OK. I envy you. Those are great times. :)
 
Hey +Jim Munro

Was looking for a list:

http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/research/prohibited.html

All countries which have banned physical hitting of children.

I'm not certain about Victoria (will have to check) but in NSW if you hit a child and leave a mark or use an object other than your hand, it is a criminal offence. I'll have to check Victoria. I have a feeling it's the same - been a couple of years since I checked on how things were going down there :)
 
+Jim Munro How old are yours?

I think there are good things about all ages - and challenges (don't you hate that word?) ;))

There are things I'm looking forward too and those things you don't want to lose.

The youngest refused to go to bed. Wanted to watch Hercule Poirot! She conked out really early lying on her mum and I put her to bed. They're so gorgeous when they lie down on you.

Since having kids I've made it a point to hug my mum more :))

Oh, one of my favourite comments, attributed to Mark Twain, but appears to be apocryphal:

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."
 
The comments here mostly scare the shit out of me?
Are all American Parents such evil sadists?

Love works.
 
+Tom Broad

"My evidence is anecdotal, and I do not have the individuals permission to disclose it, but it holds true or I wouldn't be saying it. How anybody could work in frontline child protection without recognising the "motivation" for the majority of people working in the frontline is beyond me, you want evidence?"

Here in lies the problem. It's true that most people have been physically abused and emotionally abused by their parents at some point in their lives. Some more than others, some frequently, some less so.

Consequently, unless there's some parameters put on the definition, it doesn't say much about people's motivations. More so,  it has little bearing on research results in the matter unless someone can show a deliberate attempt to manipulate the research.

The great preponderance of research says the same thing: hitting children isn't necessary. It doesn't say that hitting them once a year or highly irregularly causes serious problems. However, it may, depending on the event, cause serious resentment towards their parent/s.

I'm a big prohibitionist about hitting children but I would also be the last to say that people should be gaoled for something that didn't leave a mark and appeared to be a one off. In fact I've investigated many cases similar to that and advised that no further action was necessary.

I'd do the same were the current law changed to make it an offence to hit a child in any circumstance, depending on the age, context and consequences of course.

There has to be some level of pragmatism. I think we'd both agree on that. Where the line lies is the issue.

I'm not saying you propose regularly hitting children. I didn't get that from your post either.
 
+Tom Broad Sorry. Cross over posts.

I agree completely.
"our "real" relationship with your parents only begins in my opinion when you become a parent yourself, then suddenly so much about your childhood begins to make sense."

Doesn't it just!!!!

While I think you can be a good child protection worker without having children, I think the experience gives you the visceral insight and experience that truly helps you grasp what happens for parents.

Having children made me focus more on emotional abuse and see physical abuse as unnecessary but more comprehendable, if that makes sense.
 
+Patrick Elliott-Brennan Agreed. In fact, using "the softest spanking in the world" works well. It is the communication with the child that matters. And you can do that with a light tap and call it the softest spanking in the world and they will love the hell out of you for not beating them.
 
Your list is of no use to me, Patrick. My youngest is 24.

I have already run this race and won it. All you can do is equal my result and I hope that you do. :)

My sons are successful, well-adjusted adults. I agree that maybe this was despite, or perhaps because of, corporal punishment, depending on your point of view. Who knows, we just do our best.

However, consider the possibility that you might be imposing hardship or even causing the break up of well-meaning and blameless families based on false premises. 
 
+John Lawson True, it's just that I think that the seemingly dominant demographic in the US of religious dogmatism is a big factor in why there is so much so called "tough love" BS beliefs.

Can you believe parents will say, "I've got two grown children and they turned out alright and I spanked" and believe that this is reasonable and Scientific!!?

Also, the people who think that the spankings they received when they were little are probably experiencing some kind of "Stockholm's Syndrome."
 
Been doing this for years with my summer campers. New research isn't so new after all. 
 
i used positive reinforcement, did not punish my children and said i was sorry when i was wrong. I was their teacher, not their jailer. My children are all adults now and they are kind, wise and following their dreams. They don't get into trouble and never did.  I don't know what kind of mindset some of you have but rejecting positive parenting for 'beating their asses' is the dumbest thing I've ever read. parents should be a good example, then your children wouldn't behave like animals and wouldn't need to be beaten.  does your boss beat you? do police officers show up at your house and club you each morning? would that work? would it make you a more productive person? good grief.
 
There is nothing wrong with spankings! But there is more to disclipine than spanking your children. Reason, love and being stern with your children is where it is at! One size fits all also does not work! I disclipine my Son different than the way I do my daughter! You also got to start from the first day they understand and teach them! Remember parents we are not there friends!
 
+Allison Biele Thank you! :-)
Isn't it disturbing what these people think?
I'm not a parent yet but I teach my 5 yr old sister a lot and try to help her learn from her mistakes and teach her to do things she didn't believe she could do. I encourage her.

When I do have children, I will not have 8 kids like my parents did! Good grief! And I will certainly not indoctrinate them with religion. And I will teach them morals by example and with much Love and Understanding. They are children. They are not geniuses. (although they are able to teach us older people so much)

If children are misbehaving badly, the first thing to check is the parents. I guess these parents just don't like to consider the idea that they could be to blame for why their children are so angry and selfish, etc. And, yes, spankings can make children resent, hate, and fear their parents. Trust me, I know. And that's not productive at all.
 
+Neville Parris Why don't you want to be your child's friend? You should treat your children very similar to how you would a mate. I don't understand why people want to be so difficult. Your children will learn really well if you help them a lot to understand. Would you hit a dog?
 
You don't always have to beat your child 
 
Exactly Andrew .. most parents are terrible examples, then when their children emulate their nasty behavior the parents have to beat them into submission. Sorry, that's crappy parenting. Children learn from watching you. If you are kind, hardworking, thoughtful .. etc, they will want to be those things as well. If you are fair, if you help out in your community, if you respect your parents, they will learn that those are the right things to do. No beatings required.
 
Walk the talk and be an example to your kids. They'll learn the right way to show their needs and grow up emotionally. 
 
+Allison Biele And if you yell at them, don't answer them until they repeat a couple times, cuss at them, tell them to shut up, and spank them (hit them), they're probably going to start doing these things to their mom and dad and their friends and brothers and sisters.
 
Research also shows that kids of abusive parents are abusive themselves. The comments above confirm that. It is easier to believe your abuser than to acknowledge you were abused. No argument should be won by physical superiority. You haven't won, you have submitted your opponent. Your child, like you, will turn into a weak and fearful adult. Who can spot a generationsl cycle? What if you tried to make your kids better than you are rather than just like you? Isn't that your job? 
 
+Jon Giuliani Great logic.
I rebelled against all that. Unfortunately, I didn't have a good understanding of my own feelings and how to speak to my parents in an effective way when I was younger which made it more difficult. Even now as an adult, they still don't want to hear from me about my "psycho-babble."

They are Baptists. Go figure. Psychology is really amazing though. Relationships are complicated. It's hard to understand each other. Any bit of help from Science is welcome.
 
Smacking doesn't always teach kids right from wrong, it teaches them about you, and they will absorb your anger management rather than what you intended for them to learn.

I have no business telling anyone how to raise their own kids, but it is up to each parent to stop and think - every time you smack your child, ask yourself if there was a better way of teaching your child the right thing to do. "discipline" means "to teach". Smacking doesn't teach kids what to do, it just tells them that you didn't like what they did. And they will also do the same when someone else does things they don't like. Teach them the right behaviour, not just the wrong behaviour. Your child learns far more from what you do, than what you say.
Whatever you end up doing, don't pretend you were born knowing how to raise kids. Do your own research and then decide what is best for your family. 
 
Well said, Steve Pryde. That is good advice. 
 
Having them is a common mistake ;)
 
+Steve Pryde I admire the calm with which you positively inspire parents to learn how to teach. My instinct would be to criminalise their actions instead. Children of violent parents are often not good members of society. I will pay for these ignorant parents' work when their kids break into my house or bully my kids at school or burn my shop. I don't have it in me to justify using physical superiority to win an argument with a child. I understand they were abused themselves but their parents were wrong and they are wrong now. Ultimately violence wins in their heads. And I am sorry for and scared of these people. Violence from someone you love is not better than violence from someone you don't love, it has to be worse. Anyway, hat off to you for your composure with these weak minded creeps. 
 
I like this new way it makes sense yelling doesn't work anymore, thanks wall street .
 
+Jim Munro

"I have already run this race and won it." LOL Hang on. They're not dead yet and neither are you! ;))

"My sons are successful, well-adjusted adults. I agree that maybe this was despite, or perhaps because of, corporal punishment, depending on your point of view. Who knows, we just do our best (my emphasis)."

Of course. We do just do our best. At the time, as we know it.

"However, consider the possibility that you might be imposing hardship or even causing the break up well-meaning and blameless families based on false premises. "

Every day.
 
These threads always turn out the same way.
 
As long as you are continually questioning, Patrick, that is the main thing. Thank you for the conversation, it's rare to find someone willing to be reasonable in a thread with this subject.
 
Ditto +Jim Munro :)

The history of child protection is littered with good deeds gone wrong and inaction in the face of the obvious :(
 
Ritalin turns my step-son into a zombie. It's not his fault he's wild, he is just spoiled. It's bad parenting that creates wild kids and they use drugs as the "answer".

I've got a belt. Lot cheaper and much more effect. Don't even have to use it. Just the thought straightens him up!
 
+Tony Karas Because we are not allow to punish as kids as they should be or we go to jail for 'abuse', lose our children, and get labeled a threat to society.  Which means, loss of income/job, loss of home, loss of so much more.

And there is it, Ladies and Gentlemen, a certified expert +Patrick Elliott-Brennan weighing in with all those funny little letters after his name.  He and his wife have the education and experience to say that spanking (hitting) a child is wrong. As an expert then you know there is a difference between ABUSE and a PADDLING.  The problem here is your view are tainted.  Yes they are, and although you will not, can not valid your views are tainted.  They are!  They are tainted by viewing and interacting with the scam of the world.  The true abusers. Because of this, your experience in dealing with the scam of the world, your view has been tainted. Therefore you view all all form of corporal punishment as abuse, regardless if it is true or not.

Now, Im not an expert.  I dont have all those funny little letters after my name. But what I say is true but observation.  One of my clients is a domestic violence shelter for women.  Not the same as child abuse, but it is abuse none the less.  As an observer looking in, I see so many good people who go to work there with high hopes and great dream of helping these abuse women, and preventing/stopping abuse. What happens, is within a few year, those good people, who come to help, become tainted. They see every action by men as some form of abuse.  It has gotten to a point that when i visit this client for service, that i take my wife with me so that she can bare witness to this sadness.

So +Patrick Elliott-Brennan you are a solider, and you have fought a good fight. But like a career soldier in a war torn society, the fight is all you have even known. Without the fight, you have no purpose in life, and so you see evil everywhere.

Which bring me back to what I previously said.  Thousand of years of spanking vs roughly 200 years of psychology which changes every 5 years.
 
Objective research from all over the world clearly indicates that physical violence is counter-productive in teaching civilized behaviour.

If you are a civilized well-adjusted individual who happens to have received corporal punishment during your childhood, then you are just as fortunate as another civilized well-adjusted individual who grew up without corporal punishment. Examples of both kinds abound - it is unscientific to use your own personal experience as counter-argument for the findings of scientific research.

You deceive yourselves into thinking that being beaten made you a "good person"; you cannot possibly know what kind of a person you would have turned out if you had a different education.

Read the research on corporal punishment as well as international legal tendencies in first-world countries and the UN regarding corporal punishment before you advocate the phenomenon.
Nick G
+
1
2
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+Emoree Hyman Actually that statement was meant as a sarcasm. I totally agree......  Kids are just young and they don't know any better and their potential for greatness is just as great as any generation before it. I was saying that it is the way that parents too often must (or choose to) live their lives in this sick society and the effect that is having on our children that is different. Parents are different not the children.

True story. My mom was very good to us as children. She did hand down many spankings between my three younger siblings and myself, but she never went overboard and she ALWAYS sat down with us to explain why we were being punished and NEVER out of anger (she would send us out of the room and call us back when she was calm). She told me when I was an older teenager after I commented that spanking was bad and lazy parenting and that I will never do it, "Yeah we will see about that. Come and talk to me again when your kids are 5 without using it and if you still have control then maybe you will have something to teach me," and all that other spare the rod spoil the child stuff. Well a few years after, when all of her kids had left the house, she became a foster parent. I know she is not allowed to spank and of course I have noticed that her attitude has changed toward parenting in the decade since. So a while back I was curious so I asked her  if she had changed her mind about spanking.

She said "You know, at first I was frustrated that I couldn't spank them and I thought that was kind of a dumb rule but since alot of the kids are abused and DHS can't take those kind of chances, it makes sense as the best rule to make everyone follow. But you know what? It made me work harder and think harder about what I say and do to find different ways of disciplining that works. I have found out that it actually works better that way and if I had it to do over again, I would not have spanked you kids."
 
+Michael Brokate
And what qualifies a person to know what the difference is between a so-called spanking and abuse? Can you quantify it for us, and while you are at it, support your position with good research from international educational and psychological behavioral fields of study?
 
My first child is being raised mostly by his mother and grandparents. They try these methods. My son is such an ungrateful brat with them. At my house he's an angel, you know why? Because I USED to hit him. I don't even need to do it anymore. Now I can reason with him because he respects me. That's my house. I've also seen several families (within my family) have children far apart and it seems they get a change of heart on the youngest. The older ones that were hit (now adults) have so much respect for their elders while the younger ones have respect for no one. These are all people I've grown up with. You so called experts spend a small amount of time with kids that were probably abused and blame all forms of physical discipline.
 
+Tony Karas
So you attribute all the complicated and complex problems which you listed in your post to just one simple factor, namely "psychobabble"?
Do you really think that any complex situation is the result of just one single cause?
Such a perspective is the essence of over-simplification.
You may call it "psychobabble" but lots of good scientific research help us today to understand complex phenomena.

What you see around you, is not the result of research and science; it is the absence of the application of what good research and science reveal about reality; what you see is the result of a civilization which refuses to learn from science and history.
GiO Dz
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So hypothetically, the kid doesnt respect you, doesnt care about your authority, has heard your bullshit reason, your neverending soliloquy, in one ear and out the other, throwing temper tantrums cause parents are a bunch of pussies....Now what? Silent treatment? Call the cop hoping the kid listens? Bootcamp? That picture above was probably created by a pussy ass parent or a parent who is out of touch from the REAL world. You wanna blame the MEDIA, Video games and friends for all the bad influence? I say, slap and throw the kid around until he recognizes true authority. The moment you give a kid an inch of display of emotion, then you know your fucked. Of course there is a limit, but ass woopin never fails to discipline a very stubborn kid. Been there and done that, guess what? The kid follows me around like puppy. You know why? Cuz he knows I mean business. He knows that no matter what bullshit tantrum he throws at me, does not work. Oh and parents, stop spoiling your fckin kids! You dont owe them anything. Let them find ways to be strong and independent. Dont get conned into this research bullshit cause im sure there is another research that contradicts this one, as always. Only a dumbass parent caters to a kid. 
 
جنگ پتو رو خوب اومده!
Pillow fight is the way that will respond well!
Translate
 
These methods may work when your child is young but like all methods including spanking kids are smart enough to figure out what you're doing. The most important thing is consistency and that your children know that you love them but that their actions are unacceptable. With that being said and after reading the article I still would not encourage my child to throw a tantrum and then refine it to a more acceptable expression because our preschool teacher won't do the same so there woud be a lack of consistency. Would you refine the tantrum in the supermarket? No so again you lose consistency. I tend to remove my son from the audience when the tantrum happens (notice I said tend). My oldest is past the tantrum phase and tries pushing the boundaries a little further. I encourage a little boundary pushing but he knows which lines he shouldn't cross. We're not perfect, but we know that if you don'tge the basics down when they're you'ng then it will be harder to discipline them when they are older.

 
I thank my mum for the butt wooping i got as a child...made me the better man i am today

 
Dicipline has to be achieved when raising a child. Whatever works for a child, works. There are a lot of things out there that I don't agree with, but that doesn't meen it does not work for others. I do believe in being patient with my daughter when I can. I have had to spank her maybe six times, and four of those were safety issues. Now, when I start to count, I never get past 2 and she starts to act right. Now, that being said, I don't believe proper dicipline matters as much in long term behavior as does the ammount of love and attention we give our children. 
E LUGO
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Wall Street can't even get the business part right.... They think they can get the children part right.....REALLY!!!!! 
 
I am a young parent and l think children are to better cautioned early in life when the need arise, however this does not mean a s a parent we do not love them.
 
+Tony Karas
The ancient Greek philisophers like Plato, Thales and Socrates have complained about the youth of their time in similar way than you - it is documented.

The tension between parents and children (or rather between generations) is nothing new and probably a feature of reality. It is the result of many complicated factors which arise from a changing world with people who think differently than before - this has always been the case because change is a feature of reality.

What is perhaps different in modern times, is the fact that people (even children) can now more freely and more easily express their opinions. Also, people are more critical now of ideas than before - and that is called progress; thanks to it we have, among other things, advanced technology.

Nobody is going to beat that away. We should rather listen critically to people, even children (especially children?) and respond with rational arguments, reason and a good example as far as behaviour is concerned.
 
A quick backhand cures everything. Back in my day my parents would put their cigarettes out in my face, they put a cheese grader to my ass and if I talked back they would.have me sit in lemon juice, my.father one put me in a camel clutch while my mom slapped my face with a piece of bologna when I complained about doing 50 one handed pushups for the last time I got in trouble. I once told my dad I loved him and he smashed a beer bottle in my face and said EAT YOUR BEANS! We wore underwear made of SOS pads and WE LIKED IT! 
 
As +Ian Chisholm said earlier: some of the comments above read like testimonies in a typical child abuse trial - anecdotes, justifications based on biased personal experience or out-dated religious texts quoted out of socio-historical context.
These people discount research, science, international legal perspectives on the matters, in fact all that does not fit their own opinions.
 
my parents didn't get WJ and I turned out okay.
 
A problem with child protective services people like Patrick Elliott-Brennan is that they see, as part of their professional work, the pathological use of violence and so much of it, therefore extrapolate that all pain in discipline equals pathology. Notice how he always turns “spanking” to “hitting” which is pathological.

Personal experience: I had a messy divorce, at one point my ex accused me of sexually abusing my sons. I had no choice but obey the subpoena to see child protective services, I was scared almost shitless that my children would be taken from me, having heard of many abuses by child protective services. The social worker took my second son into an office, so to calm my other boys, I picked up a magazine from a table. My youngest crawled onto my lap, my oldest leaned on my shoulders from behind the chair as we discussed the pictures. After what seemed like an eternity, the social worker came out of the office with my middle son. Suddenly she stopped and stared.

“Is something wrong?” I asked.

“No, that’s the way it’s supposed to be. But I’ve never seen it before.”

This was usual for loving parents.

I got custody.

Judicious use of pain in discipline works. Abuse doesn’t. Reserve spanking for important things like respecting others, not little things like not cleaning one’s room.

If you want to reduce violence in the home, the first step is to turn off that idiot box! Even “children’s” cartoons are so full of violence that within days of turning off the TV, the lowered level of violence in the home was noticeable, as well as the increased attention span. Even Sesame Street is at fault. Turn it off!
Jay R
 
Where's the belt.....I love the "this is how you raise your kids books"- the bible even says not to "spare the rod"...we don't need a poster of how-to. 1) child acts up- warning (example. Baby I love you but you're getting in my nerves by not doing...(insert)
2) child continues with bad behavior (example: this is the second time I've told you to behave...do it again and I'm going to bust that behind..keep playing with me.
3) boom- bam! Bang! Boom! (Example: I told you to stop...this but whipping will teach you not to do it again. ( you're spanking as you say the above sentence)
4) go to your room and if I hear any talking back or mumbling you're getting your butt tore up again..
And yes a child/teen knows why they are in trouble. No need to explain why.

I'm not saying babies or two or three year olds. Right about 4yrs old and up a kid knows..

When I was a kid I was tore up..now everyone is in your business about spanking a kid and want to call child services. I can see if a child has a black eye or really abused. If parents took charge and beat their kids butt it would help reduce a lot of this disrespect but teachers and schools give kids an easy out saying child abuse.
Then when kids shoot up schools THEN they want to go after the parents.

So stop posters like this and raise your kids the old school way. They act up bust that behind. My house doesn't have timeout.

But this is a nice try of an article. 
Jay R
 
+K Randolph I feel you. I can sympathize AND empathize with you. I was in the SAME situation. My wife had a brat kid and the bum father wanted custody but never paid child support and mad BC his kid called me dad. So he and the grand mother plotted to get his daughter by calling social services and keeping a running log going then accused me of the same thing you were. I couldn't see my kids unless I was supervised. The case was dropped brat child was caught lying and now she stays with her father. The payback and revenge? His daughter he fought so hard for is bad. She's 15 having sex, doing drugs..and he has the balls to call my wife asking for parental guidance. So I'm happy for you!! Social services are scum of the earth as they do not look at evidence at all. Do not talk with them if you are going through anything. They are like cops but without a badge and can ruin your life.

I now spend my time enjoying my kids. If the father kept the same discipline going that I had when his brat daughter was in my home she wouldn't behave that. The reason she's like that is BC they asked her to lie and promised her things.

Karma. In the words of James Brown " the big payback" 
 
+Jay R The bible also condones rape and slavery. It's hardly a good source for moral guidance.
 
+E LUGO
+Omar Khan
You are aware of the fact that the research on the effects of corporal punishment and alternative child education was not conducted by +The Wall Street Journal , aren't you?

Consult good accredited research publications which conducted peer-reviewed empirical studies which are not based on anecdotal evidence by biased individuals.

It is unfortunate that +The Wall Street Journal chose to publish that rather simplistic picture; the actual findings of the research is A LOT more sophisticated than that picture.
Jay R
 
Hardly a good source. Who said anything about rape or slavery?? That's problem number one with ppl.....taking comments into your own interpretation. If that is happening to a child then the child should be protected at all cost.....but I'm talking about kids and blatant disrespect. Please do not take my comments and twist them.
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The bible is an excellent source!!! The issue is that ppl don't follow it. 
 
+Jay R You mean like when kids make fun of bald people and God kills them with bears?
 
You know what research like this never takes into account? The fact that parenting is often an exercise in damage control. Once a kid is so old, they are in school most of the day & in extracurricular programs. As parents we almost become secondary & are responsible for the aftermath. 
 
If people followed the bible we'd be back in the times 700 B.C. or earlier. No UN, no constitution, no police, no common or criminal legal system, no UNESCO, no social care... Instead a class system, slavery, sharia-like law (sounds terrible, doesn't it)... No scientific progress, no technology.

You want to trust the bible and so, by implication the church? Doesn't little things like the child molestation scandal in the Roman Catholic Church and the anti-women/anti-evolution/anti-gay rights/ war against the reality that practically all churches practise make you just a little uneasy? They all claim their policies are bible-based.



 
Spanking does no good with my 3-year-old grandson. I have swatted his butt hard enough to raise welts & leave my hand stinging, but he just laughs it off. The only thing that works is to stand him with his nose in a corner for a few minutes.
 
Rudi van de Venter — Your comments are so off the wall.

1) they are off topic for this thread.

2) they show an abject ignorance of the Bible and its influence in history, science and society.
 
+Patrick Elliott-Brennan I'm a parent & I don't like spanking, although I swatted my oldest child's rear a few times when she was between 4-6 years old- for back talk. I believe it is necessary for children to understand that their position in life is inferior to that of the parent. It is not demeaning, but it only works in combination with setting a good example- no form of discipline will work well if the parent is a bad person or simply can't handle life.

I dismiss your assumption that you are qualified as an expert, more so than any experienced parent, because of your formal education & career. The evidence you cite, by definition, is not accepted science. It is supposition based on unreliable data. This is no different than putting a child on antidepressants despite not knowing, biologically, how the drug will impact the child. Empirical evidence is not scientifically acceptable. And this is why psychology, & all it's branch-offs, are so hit or miss.

There are forces impacting our kids that we have little or no control over. For example, well meaning teachers & counselors trained to believe that they are working in a scientific discipline when they are working in a field of guesswork. Not to mention popular culture- which encompasses much more than television.

Raising children is a case-by-case project which requires a basic structure but constant adaptation. 
 
+K Randolph
I responded to a claim about biblical model for moral guidance made by +Jay R
Are you aware of this?
Or do you simply don't like what I've written?
 
+Rudi van de Venter why are you so mad? why are you attacking peoples religion. I know there are fanatics out there that give religion a very bad name but that doesn't mean religion is responsible to individuals behavior.
To help you understand this better in your terms, we blame computers because of hackers or we blame Hiroshima and Nagasaki on Science and not hold the men responsible for their actions.
My initial point of saying that my parents didn't get WJ and I turned out okay was to say that they didn't need a manual on how to raise kids. I know WJ just happen to publish it, but read some of the things on it, and it sounds ridiculous to cry when your kid is crying. That's mean that you are mocking the kid. Or give them hugs when they put their clothes in the drawer. GET REAL.
World is not made of feathered pillows. 

"A smooth sea never made a skilled sailor." English Proverb

+K Randolph I agree with you.
 
+David Zapata I don't have to walk in your shoes. You spelled it out pretty plainly in your post. I didn't write your post for you, you did. I would never treat my wife that way and I certainly wouldn't avoid responsibility with the kids by dumping it on her. If you don't like the comment I made don't read it. As for walking in your shoes...why would I..they sound like sad, unhappy shoes. I love mine and they are great.
Jay R
 
+Rudi van de Venter its not about being back in old times/ The bible speaks and foretold events that would happen in these days and times.. Its a guide. And yes I'm not saying those in the Catholic church are right. When it comes to ANYONE and the safety we should take action. You are really taking the context of whats mentioned and running with your own thoughts. The point out of my comments and this topic are about discipline and children.  The fact that parents use video games and televisions as babysitters doesn't bother you? The fact that parents nowadays do not take responsibility for their bad children (some- not all) and for that what I'm saying is that if parents would take the time to be parents instead of articles like this telling a parent how to parent then it would make a difference in today's society. I simply spoke about spanking a child because in the bible it mentions not to spare the rod. My point is- If more parents took that approach it would help, not cure all, but certainly help with today's kids. Safety for children is a priority. Respect for adults is also what needs to be taught by parents. Please stop insinuating and interpreting my comments into more than what it is.
Thank you
 
He probably just wanted your attention and time with you. Were you watching TV or on the computer?
 
I have found that having respect for your mother is taught by the whole family. The "dad or man" of the house should teach respect for mom, as well as all cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents and close family friends. It goes like this "you do not talk to your mother that way" it is disrespectful and bad behavior." Works in my family.
 
We should at least listen to what the scientists say. I do read parenting books and I have used it successfully, and seen them work for others. In my opinion, people making repeated stupid decisions later in life are more likely to suffer self esteem problems than lack of discipline. We probably should really be basing our opinions on progress rather than following old traditions without thinking. 
 
+Omar Khan
+Jay R

I am not angry... I was only reacting in order to attempt to bring balance into this part of the discussion. Please note that it was not I who brought religion into the discussion. I do not confuse education with religion. If someone chooses to assign more credibility to man-made interptetations of ancient texts taken out of socio-historical context than good scientific research, then it is their good right to do so, but please do not presuppose that your opinions are of higher value than somebody else's.

It is still interesting to me, though, that religious people get to pick and choose which part of the religious texts are "still applicable" to a given modern situation, while conveniently disregarding the rest of the prescriptions and proscriptions found in the same text. If challenged about it, the general response is that "our faith sanctifies our sins" or something like that.

+K Randolph says I demonstrate a lack of understanding and knowledge about the bible.
Actually I spent 24 years as member of a typical conservative Christian denomination and another 6 or so visiting various other more evangelical and more conservative congregations, attending Sunday School and various courses... I am not a theologian but I know the bible and several theologies bases on it PERHAPS TOO WELL. Still, I derived a lot of useful and valuable ideas from my contact with religion(s), that I gladly concede.

You are rather quick to judge a person, simply because his perspective is different from yours.

And yes, we are deviating from the topic of this post - which is, the quest for finding better and more efficient, morally and legally consciencable strategies for educating children.
 
hmm.  I was wonder why +Patrick Elliott-Brennan had not replied to anyone, or me, because this topic seems to be near and dear to his heart.  Then I looked at the time stamps on the messages and realized, he is probably working.
 
+Stephanie Foret Exactly. A parent can't simply tell a child what is appropriate. He or she must embody the message- lead by example. If a father acts disrespectful to his wife, the child will pick up on that behavior no matter what the father says. Great post!
 
old research shows even better ways to raise children, unfortunatly now they are illegal.  If my grandfather refused to eat what his mom cooked he still ate it cause he couldnt leave the table til he did. If he left the table without permission he was punished. (punishments varied by what he did wrong but the only variable was how many times he was hit with a belt.) He grew up as many from that era, into a happy healthy respectful tough gentleman  unlike these whiny kids that "threaten" their parents and grow up to be sociopaths
 
Grian Mangan, those who critisize our generation forgot who raised it. Period.
 
Being too impatient?  Yes, counting is a good idea.  I have found the perception of time is different between kids and adults. 

Reasoning during a tantrum?   I've found that letting tantrums wind down on their own works well.  Kids (at least mine) quickly learned that it was an ineffective means of getting what they want.  The time for reasoning comes after the tantrum...reasoning during a tantrum is usually an exercise in futility.

Yelling?  Lol, try that in the grocery store! 

Vague commands?  Yes, this is true for younger kids.  When you tell (young) children something like 'go clean your room', the task can be overwhelming, but if you break it into smaller tasks i.e. pickup stuffed animals, now barbies, etc then it seems easier.  As they get older they will need less explicit instructions...'clean your room' or 'be careful' should be enough for a 5th grader.

Focusing on negative behavior?  Definitely need to acknowledge both good and bad behavior in equal measure.
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My parents always had this line before we got out of the car to go to the store.
"no whining, crying or asking for stuff. And if you do? Straight home and get a spanking."

Guess what me and my siblings did...

We didn't whine, cry or ask for stuff.

as far as when we did do stuff that deserved a a
spanking it was always delivered via a wooden spoon on the fridge, Never a hand.
fear the spoon not the parent.
 
Please actually read the article attached before making stupid comments. I know that most of us require instant gratification and to be heard and to make sure it was ok for us to spank our children because we were, but if you could take the extra 30 seconds to read the article and then form an opinion afterwards you may be surprised. But there I go trying to use reason during a tantrum. Also, please remember that discipline must be age and situation appropriate.

It is not suggesting you give them until they feel like doing it; 5 sec instead of 1-2. Think you can swing an extra 3 sec in your day.

It is not suggesting all positive reinforcement and no discipline simply more of the prior since we are hard wired to notice more of the negatives. 
EB Trey
 
Have your kids pratices tantrums, to decrease likelyhood of it occurring?! Make them btter at throwing em seems more likely 
EB Trey
 
+Will Pirnasch no where does it say that these methods work. It says they may work.
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Oh this is wonderful... more people without kids... telling us how to raise ours... 
 
The best a parent can do is to teach discipline and respect through leading by example; however, parenting is a tough job, and there isn't a magic formula that works for everyone. Children are more impressionable, but like all individuals, they will grow into their own skin and make their own choices. "Who can give water to the horse that will not drink of its own accord."

Worry less of how other children are raised and concentrate more on your own. If you don't have children, exercise patience and reserve judgement until you do. 
 
+Adam Smith
Glad to see at least one more person who actually read the original article.

Seems as if it is now an acceptable style of debate to simply react emotionally to anything scientific and to attempt to make it suspect because it does not fit your own opinion which is not based on fact/logic/empirical evidence but rather on own biased anecdotal "experience" and conditioning through tradition and religion.
Josh B
 
Does anyone notice the parenting no-no's on the stop sign in the middle? 
 
+Rudi van de Venter Empirical evidence is not scientific. While I agree that many of the comments here are silly, I'm willing to believe that some are honest opinions from people who have read the article & disagree with the conclusions cited. Assuming that those who disagree must not have read the original article is an example of pseudointellectualism.

Acting as though you are more intelligent than the person you are debating is a tactic used by someone who knows that they can't definitively support their point of view with facts. It's not unlike resorting to violence to resolve a dispute.

Reality is that watch child is unique in his or her own way. What works for one may not work for another. No one leaving comments here can be proven right because this is subjective. All that's left then is opinion. And everyone has the right to their own opinion & to express themselves. 
 
+Johnny Grunas
I believe I have lost you... "empirical evidence" is not scientific?
Please elaborate on that statement.

I am not qualified to assess other people's intelligence and I am really sorry if I left the impression of intellectual snobism. In this debate it is not, however, about acting if you are more intelligent than others - rather, it is about who has the research, the science, the logic, the evidence and the law on their side. (I used to think this should be the case in any debate)

Progress in science, technology and engineering happens when good research informs the practices followed, so that the improved practices lead to better results on which more research can be done - and the process works! Yet, as far as social, political and educational matters are concerned: Suddenly, the same scientific processes that continually lead to advances in science, technology and engineering are distrusted and too often decisions are made from non-scientific considerations; that is why you see the general resistance to change and persistence of harmful unscientific practices in society.

My problem is with people who take their own biased, emotional opinions and subjective experience and then base the authority of their opinions on that. This is terribly dangerous, for among other reasons that the research has also shown that most victims who suffered long-term abuse from close family especially from a very young age become "rewired" to believe that what they endured was right and good so that they will follow the same patterns of behaviour and even defend what had been done to them.

Examine the comments on this thread since yesterday and you will probably also be able to identify this pattern.
 
+grace wa deno At 18 months, a child is too young to understand spoken reasoning, but old enough to get into real danger and old enough to learn. Unfortunately, pain is about the only resource we have to keep children away from danger. In order to be effective, it needs to be appropriate, timely, and sparing. At this age, pain is negative reinforcement, not punishment, so needs to be treated as such. Even for adults, pain is a gift to tell us what to avoid, so can be used for toddlers to tell them what to avoid.

A humorous example, my then toddler son liked to go to grandma’s place and dig up the flowers in the flower boxes. We never caught him at it, so my mother planted cacti in the front row. Problem solved.

When my then toddler son got his running legs, around 18 months, he decided he wanted to run into a busy street. He got an immediate spanking, plus a hugging that he didn’t really want, and a scared reaction from his parents. He didn’t understand that he’d be hit and most likely killed by a car if he ran into the street, but he did understand that running into the street was a big no no. He didn’t try more than about three times.

Even at that age it’s best that a spanking be given by a special spanker, not a hand. Only on his rear where pain can be inflicted without injury, And never, ever, use a fist.
 
+Rudi van de Venter Yeah, that article started with a story about some woman who apparently never spanked her children, so they were wild, out of control. Then the story was followed by a bunch of psycho-babble that didn’t say much. As far as specifics, it hardly got beyond the picture at the beginning. The article mentioned punishment, but didn’t specify which would really work.

No, I was not impressed.
 
+K Randolph
I do not blame you if the particular article did not impress you. It is most certainly not a very comprehensive summary of the research. The Wall Street Journal could have done much better, I fully agree.
(",)
 
+Rudi van de Venter Empirical evidence is not science because it is only suggestive. It is the difference between "It is thought that..." & "This is the process that takes place...". Pharmaceutical companies & most people involved with the field of psychology would like to forget that.

Scientific facts/laws can be reproduced in a controlled setting. Studies do not generate this imperative. Most people don't know that no antidepressant on the market has ever been proven to do what manufacturers claim it does. Most studies submitted to the FDA even have conclusions that are at odds with the data provided. This is just an example. And a good one to illustrate why studies do not create scientific principle. The evidence for the effectiveness of antidepressants is purely empirical- as in some people seems to think they feel better when they take them. Until it can be demonstrated, in a controlled environment such as a laboratory, exactly what the drug does chemically & exactly what happens in the brain as a result, it will never be scientific fact.

I guarantee that parenting methods will have wide variations in effectiveness & no matter what we can't map, reproduce & demonstrate behavior patterns at will.

I suggest reading the published studies, paying close attention to the data, how the data was collected & pay less attention to the author's conclusions. Make your own conclusions based on the data. Please don't describe them as science- as if it's concrete scientific principle. Some studies are based on questionnaires mailed out to people for goodness sake.

Your point about some of the comments is valid but certainly not all of them. BTW it's nice to have a real conversation online with an intelligent person. Thanks!
 
parent knows what will they do for their children
 
+Johnny Grunas
I fully concede that there are a lot of bad attempts at research going around under the name of "research" and I also agree with you that not all information should be trusted simply if it claims to be research. I also gladly concede the point that scientific research into social, psychological and educational fields of study is different from scientific research in natural sciences, technology and engineering and that the word "empirical evidence" have slightly different meanings in these different contexts.

So permit me to clarify my previous use of the terms "scientific research", "empirical evidence" etc.:

In the context of research into the praxis and theory of education and education-related psychology, the terms above should only be used in reference to peer-reviewed research findings obtained from rigorous research projects which satisfied strict criteria as posed and enforced by accredited journals or post-graduate theses completed in internationally respected universities. Not even a final year under-graduate university student should fall into the trap of believing the findings of "research" done by, to use your example, simply sending out a questionnare or anything so limited in both time and scope. But we must not think that the findings of such "research" would ever be recognized as such by the international research communities. You would not believe the trouble and energy it takes to get a single article from a successfully completed doctoral thesis to be accepted in an accredited journal; you have (among many other things) to prove that your findings are based on research methodologies which include several different methods of data-collection and data- analysis.

Perhaps we should therefore indeed be critical and mindful of the sources we consult when reading such research.

The point I was trying to make earlier was that most of the leading and most academic authorative bodies agree now that education of children should take place without corporal punishment, leading to laws in leading first-world countries where corporal punishment is illegal in schools and even in households... If one consults the list of these countries you will certainly not see countries notorious for social and political chaos and mayhem - you don't see frequent news about crime done by children or young adults getting out of hand in these countries, or of children or young adults turning against authority. To the contrary: some of those countries in North Europe sport the most efficient and most successful educational systems in the world. 
 
It is the calling call of those who have had their capacity to communicate retarded via conditioning, learned dehabilitative techniques, mental illness or that most restrictive of all limiters - LOVE - to imagine their inability to appreciate something is a failure of the communicator rather than themselves.

They will be predisposed to violence as a means of communicating desire with a solemn piety and certainty that is more terrifying than you can imagine.

Your imagination would be a great deal more sane if you did not repress the memory of your years spent as a the personal prisoner to a very damaged girl. She took your toys without explaining why, often for no reason. She moved you rapidly from physical locations nonstop, often for no reason. She terrified you with her attempts to communicate to you in her preferred tongue, but you were never able to solve the code that was her "babbling baby talk". You were powerless and her abuse of you was unconscionable but you have to understand - she didn't realise you had a brain. Her brain was discarded somewhere along the line. It's a religious, mysoginistic line but they didn't care about her. It was all about you.

nb. The above is only true for control freaks. Do you believe in property rights? Are things simply Yours? Are you unable to be negotiated with? Do your children belong to You? Are they Your Own? Are they yours like Your Own woman who wants to be used? Do you reserve the right to do what you like with Your Own property?
 
+Rudi van de Venter Are you practicing post-modern science, which is in practice a return to medieval and earlier “science”, where who made a claim was more important that what was the claim, that modern science was invented to oppose? Do you realize the fraud rates in “peer reviewed” and published articles? In some fields, according to an article I read some months ago, estimated to be up to 50%? When fraud is intended, that a relatively small number of people working together can take over a peer review system to change it to “pal review” to get their papers published and opposing papers rejected, as happened in climate science shown by the “climategate” leak? And in some fields, most notably education, anthropology and similar fields, that the role of personal beliefs can skew what the researcher observes even when no fraud is intended?

The late astro-physicist Dr. Thomas Gold gave a scathing critique of “peer review” as actually being harmful to the advancement of science in the long run.

A lot of our modern education theory goes back to John Dewey and his co-workers, but were they correct? A lot of his theory was based on his beliefs, religion as it were, concerning human nature. How much did his beliefs skew his observations? After all, a person observes what he’s prepared to observe, and beliefs are a major portion of that preparation. How much of his theories are responsible for the de facto 30% functional illiteracy rate among U.S. high school graduates today?

I read a story about a teacher in the 1930s who was surprised that the school board that hired him was more interested in his brawn than his brains. He soon found out. He had to duke it out with one of the students, a fist fight, and after winning it had the respect and discipline in class where learning could take place. This was high school where the student was physically bigger than the teacher. How does that fit in with modern theories?

Private schools usually have the authority to discipline or expel disruptive students, is that a major reason they excel academically?

This discussion started with an article claiming that corporal punishment is counter-indicated by research. But how much of that “research” is valid? How much of it is merely the reflection of the beliefs of the researchers? How much of that was shaped by observing the misuse of corporal punishment?

Some of the other ideas are valid: giving clear commands, letting kids throw a temper tantrum and seeing that it gets them nowhere (my kids learned that lesson while yet toddlers, by the time the “terrible twos” came along things went smoothly). Whining is a type of temper tantrum, treat it as such, don’t reinforce it by whining with the kid. But the idea of a carrot without a stick, praise without an effective punishment, doesn’t work. And a parent/teacher needs to prioritize, what deserves the “stick”?
 
+K Randolph
To say that "post-modern science is in practice a return to medieval science" - wow. It is the first time I encountered that point of view. In the research community where I work, where collaboration between South African, Canadian, Finnish, British, Dutch universities and several universities from South East Asia continually takes place, I have never heard of such a claim. Please explain your point so that I may discuss it with colleagues.

Your critic against peer-review, supported by the quote by Dr. T Gold, is valid and that is why peer-review is just one of several modern academic mechanisms used to test the academic authority of research. (the practices you listed under the term "peer-reviewed" are anyway suspect and far removed from the reality - if a peer-review happened in the way you described, no promotor or editorial board of any respectable accredited journal would accept the validity of the process)

Modern education theory has developed light-years beyond the theories of Dewey, Piaget and their peers way back then - the old behaviouristic theory of education from that time, by the way, was the "scientific basis" for the impuls-response approach to conditioning (does that sound familiar...? "*if* my son whines/.../.... then I just whack him a few shots because the result of the spaking made him stop - see, it works!")

But back to modern international educational theory. It is much more interpretivistic than before, less simplistic, and much more pragmatic - by interpretivism we mean "a scientific approach which strives for understanding a phenomenon rather than simply describing it" and by pragmatism we mean "of useful value for the practice; of practical use". Also, modern educational theory employs the so-called "critical theory" approach which seek to re-examine "accepted truths from classical or traditional scientifoc theory".

You also quote "a story you heard" about a teacher in the 1930's who...
I could point out that this type of "evidence" is purely anecdotal - but, out of respect for your sincerity and honesty I shall not discount it and attempt to respond just as honestly:

Firstly, a situation where a parent or teacher needs physical violence or physical intimidation to subdue a child or student does not in any way fit in with modern education theory - it is an example of primitive behaviour similar to what you would expect from animals like primates; if you really stretch it you could maybe recognize in such an approach to "discipline" elements of the old behaviourist model of conditioned behaviour which I referred to in a previous paragraph.

Secondly, I would like to extend the argument that this anecdote seems to make: If you "discipline" young people by brute physical violence and in doing so, what is the nature of the values you are instilling in them? Something like, "respect and subdue yourself only to abusive authority, because they can hurt you?" - sounds to me like the very basis of a police state, don't you think?

The explanation for the better performance of pupils in private schools may be ascribed to many well-documented factors like expert teachers (who receive better pay because they have academic credentials which distinguish them), stronger pupils (these private schools often apply more stringent admission criteria), smaller classes, better educational technology and media, a better motivation and competition among pupils, better socio-economic background... Because of these factors, there will probably be little need for instilling any other form of discipline but self-discipline. The nature of such schools and their pupils are very different from what you find in the case of public schools. I see no basis for believing that the application of disciplinary measures is a primary factor which explains the better performance of these schools.

My point remains that modern educational practices should be informed by scientific and legal considerations, not by tradition, religion, anecdote or other suspect beliefs.

Again: make a quick study of first-world countries where all forms of corporal punishment have been abolished and look for examples of unstable societies, examples of countries notorious for household violence, examples of countries known for mass-killings, examples of countries where youth crime are on the rise, examples of countries on the verge of social collapse.

Instead, I daresay, you will find examples of some of the most peaceful, prosperous and stable countries in the world.

 
The picture is a mistake, men's do not wear pants only.
 
+Tomáš Zahálka After looking at the picture it would seem they actually got that part right, with all 5 parents wearing pants? 

In reality, the children should wear the pants. Anyone who disagrees is someone who shouldn't really be breeding. Those in need lack the capacity to be honest about who needs the love and lies.

It's not children who are needy; that's the lie needy creeps tell themselves when they're breeding slaves to satisfy whatever insane need one might imagine when one isn't willing to disclose their motives for needing children of Their Own in a world where 30,000 children of Our Own under the age of 5 die every single day. 
 
Everyone who's saying that, in such & such country/time/ethnic group, what ever the different parenting style, that "those" kids are better behaved.. Possibly, they're just scared shitless, & trying to avoid a psychotic parent or random object being thrown at them. Also, I think our generation is beginning to resemble our grandparents generation in romancing "the good 'ol days". "Back in my day, kids respected their elders, pop cost a nickel, & we didn't have all these gadgets & doo hickeys rotting our brains.!" I'm laying it on a bit thick, just tryin to make a point.. Otherwise, I think this is just a crappy cartoon that strangely resembles those airplane brochures explaining.. something about a mask.. or a blow up slide.. not sure, never read it..
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