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This is why God invented sniper rifles and drones with hellfire missles.
 
I read that story today and couldn't believe what I was reading. For all of the progress in this world, we still have a long way to go.
 
We're all disgusted.
 
WTF? It's sad and unfortunate, but no surprise that atrocities like this continue to this day.
 
I hate how they show it on tv, I always change the channel.
 
Disgusting. Where are the NATO troops?
 
It is disgusting, but it is also very positive that Afghans are in outrage because of it. I sincerely hope the manhunt turns out to be successful.
 
Utterly disgusted. It's such a shame that human life, especially women's lives, are of little or no value. Barbaric!
 
I hope the Afghan president is serious and arrest any and all participants. 
 
Not uncommon, yet the community seems outraged. The Taliban is trying to gain control again. I was hoping that after all this time the Afghans would've built up a security force to resist the Taliban. And maybe they have. It's too soon to tell what will become of this despicable act.
 
I am I stated this morning that I refuse to watch the video of this on the news...it does not need to be shown a few still and the story are enough
 
That they are outraged - and that we get to hear that they are - is very encouraging. The Taleban is an extremely small group of extremists, not representative of the average Afghan.
It's about time people speak up.
 
I personally won't watch the video, I've seen similar, but I think it needs to available to be viewed.
 
not much has changed to turn the culture in afghanistan from medieval to modern. usually the solution is for older generations to die off, just like older generations elsewhere have very unsavory opinions.
 
It is really discouraging that some parts of the world have come so far yet this kind of thing still happens.
 
+Erick Ovando Trying to recall the last non-Muslim occurrence of this in modern times or modern society. 
 
+Vic Gundotra This is horrible. I hope this will help the Afghan people come together to help drive the Taliban out of their country.
 
Where are the riots on the streets and angry mobs attacking this village?  ooh...wait...  This is normal, not like such an atrocity as accidentally burning a book. 
 
Just one small way that women are killed the world over.  The world's most common victim of violence: the female.  It's sad yes, but so are all the drone killings, esp. of 16 year old children.  But I don't see outrage over those.  No, because they don't have a name. What about all the Syrian women killed.  Are they not equally of value?  Should we not be outraged? If not, why not?  Supposedly God loves all children.  Ha, that's a patent lie.
 
An interesting, albeit fictional, book is A Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled Hosseini. I gives a glimpse into the life of women in Afghanistan in the mid to late 1990's. If you are a woman give thanks you do not live in that area of the world!
 
What sickens me the most is that these men were loved and raised by a mother very much like the woman they executed. When does a person change from a sweet child to someone that can disrespect human life so flippantly? It is stories like this that sometimes make me wonder if the human race is doomed.
 
All in the name of god. Not my God, He is forgiving and teaches kindness. There is a fundamental truth in the difference and, therefore, the true path. Just ask your heart.
 
I blame the people that taught this was ok.  Men seem to think they are a law unto themselves in this world.  It is a different world than ours.
 
It's just sick and wrong. I couldn't even bear to watch the video. Religious fundamentalists/extremists are really scary...
 
+Hassan Alamer What good does it do to bring that up? Seriously? What kind of justification is that? You sound really defensive when you say that...
 
Horrifying.  The only thing that disgusts me more is the United States imposing itself as the world's policeman.
 
Dropping bombs on them won't make them any more enlightened.
 
Sir Charles Napier in India, "This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. ... Let us all act according to national customs."
 
No +Erick Ovando I was only pointing out that out of the 3 religions, this one has taken their religious views to this extreme, not to mention women's right in general. I can assure you Homosexuals stand a better chance of staying alive, un-imprisoned, and torture free in Modern Judeo-Christian based societies than they have the the any place in the world where Islamist extremists have there way. 
I understand the point your trying to make, but it's not really related to this article.
 
Good people will do good things.
Evil people will do evil things.

But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.
 
They are basically where Christianity was 2000 years ago before the New Testament. The Old Testament was pretty hard core and ranks right up there with Islam when you start talking extremist. Hopefully in another 2000 years or less mankind will evolve beyond all this religious nonsense and put this petty bickering behind us. That is provided we don't wipe ourselves out first.
 
How can you prevent this from happening when these people aren't living in the 21st century. Most are illiterate and don't know what a computer is or even the Internet. Maybe some good will come from +Vic Gundotra posting this. 
 
It's disgusting, for it's wrong for humans, especially women, to be harmed over the pride and ignorance of another person's beliefs. No human should be condemned to such fate, especially if the motive for such crime had a premise of love. 
 
Harsh truth is that these people are empowered to do what they did because of an ideology which commands them to it! It is the religion not the people! People are just trying to please their God who is stern and who has harsh rules for his flock.
 
I am extremely angry about this. So angry in fact that I mistakenly posted a comment thinking it was this thread on the hangouts thread.  Maybe its a sign that I need to calm down.  The ANIMAL that did this should suffer along with the COWARD ANIMALS that watched.
 
I'm not sure what is more disturbing.  A man shooting a woman in the back for adultery.  Or a crowd standing by and cheering.
 
From my understanding, the punishment for adultery in Islaam is fair and legitimate, but (1) can only be carried out in an Islamic state by the ruler (and rightfully appointed judge), and not by a band of rebels, and (2) can ONLY be applied where there are FOUR witnesses to the crime. And the punishment is stoning, not shooting. So i hope for these people's sake that they met all those criteria, or they may face God with the charge of Murder. 

As for you +Vic Gundotra, while I understand your outrage (I myself am, by both the crime, and the way the punishment was carried out), I find myself feeling a lot less respect for you for this post.. and I make no apology for saying that.
 
+Les Tirmenstein That's why this punishment should almost NEVER be carried out, because that is the requirement.. FOUR witnesses. AND, if you only have 3, each of those 3 will be deemed liars by the court, and their testimony can never be accepted in a court again.  If you think carefully, it is extremely fair.. If someone does get stoned for adultery by this system, there can be no doubt that they committed it.
 
I think +Sean Carolan nailed it really. There has been turmoil and war in the middle east for well over 2000 years if not longer. Britain and Russia indeed ran home with their tails between their legs. Not necessarily because they got their butts handed to them. But because they realized that for the most part we aren't wanted there. They don't WANT to change their ways. We can't do it, only they can. No matter how many troops we send in. No matter how hard we try to educate them. They're at a very dangerous part in the evolution of their faith. The more you try and change them the more it falls into their belief that you're the enemy and are trying to corrupt them by swaying them from their belief. It's a loose/loose situation and as an atheist why I never argue faith with hard core Christians.

I mean seriously, ever try to convince a Christian Fundamentalist that Halloween is not the Devil's holiday, explain its true origins. And that even though some Satanist consider the holiday a part of their beliefs that it wasn't created by Satanist. And nor does it mean those who celebrate it are devil worshippers or evil even. I mean the harder you try to convince them the more they start believing you're doing the devil's work and are trying to get them over to the dark side or something.

And as frustrating as it is wanting to do something about. To do the right thing. To try and fix it. It's just not gonna happen no matter how many troops we send over there or how long we stay. IMHO all these wars and proxy wars we're getting into in the middle east is a far worse situation than Vietnam or Korea ever was. This is really a loose/loose situation.

Going over there and trying to pound the crazies out is not gonna do it. But sadly, short of an alien invasion maybe, I don't know what will either... :-(
 
+Benjamin So Not so at all. While you may disagree, all religions are not flawed. They were perfect at the time when God sent them to their people (speaking only of Christianity and Judaism). And then the people changed them. Which is why He sent another final religion, which was Islaam, which has not changed, and will not change. If you examine Islam carefully, you will ample solutions to you problems. Even this ridiculous debt crisis you are having, that's affecting the rest of us... if you instituted the mandatory 2.5% poor-tax, you would fix your income-distribution problem, and literally END POVERTY in the United States in a few years.
 
+Les Tirmenstein It does rise to that level under Islamic law. And both the man and the woman can be stoned. And you're proving my point.. if the law was applied correctly, almost no one would get stoned... some something is wrong with the application.
 
+Vic Gundotra sickening story. My relief comes from a constantly refreshed perspective of high ranking businessmen like yourself who will speak up about it. You embody Google's spirit!
 
+Les Tirmenstein The religion was never changed.. the original Quran is intact (unlike the bibile), and the authentic narrations of the words and actions of the Messenger upon whom be peace are in authentic books such as Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim (wikipedia it). 
 
To the others saying that this is seen as justified...it is NOT!  It is a scapegoat measure for a culture dominated by men.  This is a culture or sub-culture that allows men to treat women like slaves or like livestock...punishing them with harsh and cruel treatment if they decide to stand up for themselves.

I saw a movie not long ago called The Stoning of Soraya M.  This story sounds astonishingly similar to the movie I saw, where the woman was wrongly accused of adultery because her husband wanted to escapade around with other women.  She was ultimately stoned to death for no reason at all.  Eventhough the community at large believed what the few corrupt people (men) in the town were saying about her (slandering her).
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1277737/

The movie points out that even though this (sub)culture exists there are people in the same society that believe this is wrong, but they are near powerless to make change because of the negative connotations that are associated with standing up for yourself as a woman.

I too am disgusted at this act +Vic Gundotra and I hope that we can continue to use places like +Google+ to seek out and destroy this kind of treatment to one another in whatever capacity it exists.  

We must, though, be careful not to categorize groups of people because of the acts of one or a few.  Any talk of groups of people tends to isolate and diminish the disparity of those in that same group that are acting against this devilishness.      
 
+Ravi Shastry +Les Tirmenstein One of His Attributes is The Most Merciful.. in fact there is a whole chapter in the Quran after his attribute of Mercy called Surah Ar-Rahmaan (The Most Merciful One), chapter 55. And He Himself said.. "Indeed My Mercy extends over My Wrath" (or how he said it).. so then how can you call Him that? Doesnt He give you air to breath and water to drink? What if he took away all your water..? 
 
+Les Tirmenstein The man is also stoned Les. And as I said, God said, "My Mercy overrides my Wrath"... so you are mistaken. As a matter of fact, He refers to Himself as the Most Merciful all over the Quran, and it is in the first 7 verses of the Quran, which each Muslim recites 17 times a day.
 
+Abdullah Mohammed  People who admire and advocate a medieval value system using the most modern technology developed and provided by the another set of people who are deemed Godless! That is the real irony!
 
+Ravi Shastry No it is not irony Ravi. God is ancient, and the belief in the ONE and only God without partner nor son is ancient, and promoted by every prophet sent by Him, from Adam, to Noah, to Abrahim, to Ishmael to Jacob, to Jesus to Muhammad (may peace be on all of them). This is a recognition of His Majesty over what they ascribe to Him. Using technology or not has nothing to do with the belief that God exists and should be worshiped.
 
+Les Tirmenstein You are entitled to your belief and opinion, but you will be called to account for it on the Day of Resurrection. The 'hatred' is in your head.. perhaps you watch too much FoxNews.. or perhaps you've forgotten how many Aztecs, and Caribs and Arawaks and other native American people were killed by the invading Christians, in the name of Christendon, starting with Columbus, and leading right up to Bush himself?
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Yes +Jacob Moen  i do blame the Afghans to certain extent for atrocities like these, that happen regularly in their country, but are rarely reported.

Notice their outrage over the accidental koran burnings and their apathy towards any other atrocities that disgrace their country.  

The real problem is Sharia Law and  its acceptance by the Afghan people. This law gives legal and moral cover to an array of crimes and atrocities. Until the people reject this law, these crimes will continue.

The worst thing about this scenario is that Sharia Law was installed as the law of the land with the blessing of the US governement.

So much for trying to promote human rights in middle east.
 
Religious arguments aside, this type of behavior has no business in a civilized, modern society. 
 
+Surbjit Singh It does actually live up to it.. you're just conditioned not to see it. I live in the West (born and bread), and I recently made hajj for the first time with my wife, and what we saw there amazed us... when the call to prayer is called, the people simply cover their stalls, and go to the prayer.. sometimes, they dont even close it... NO ONE STEALS... unbelievable?  go see for yourself.. We walked into a mall, like any other mall in the US, and immediately you get that usual feeling like the store clerk is watching you, as if you're going to steal something.. there? no one's watching.. everyone trusts you.. and we were foreigners..   we came back home, and our own people watch you like a hawk.. its amazing.   Ask yourself why Islam Finance instruments were not affected by the 2008 crisis, and still not.. and why folks are rushing to implement Islamic Banking all over the world..  Ask yourself why about a lot of your pre-conditioned thoughts about Islaam before you jump to conclusions, if you really want to reflect on the truth.
 
Sorry for the caps here but it fits...  +Les Tirmenstein ALL MUSLIMS DO NOT HATE, MURDER...YOU ARE VERY WRONG AND BEING VERY DISRESPECTFUL EVEN THOUGH YOU THINK YOU ARE BEING RIGHTEOUS.  

My post warned against taking a culture and using the extremists from that culture as the normal.  We cannot continue to group all people based on what the bad apples of that group are doing.  Sure, we all need to distance ourselves from people/groups that are hateful and doing unjust deeds against humanity.  But take, for instance this example...  The KKK largely identify themselves as Christians (Southern Baptists).  Does that make all Christians bad people?  

You should be done because you are making no sense and only adding to the confusion and hatred that is surrounding this and many issues we face as a people.  

PLEASE, everyone, consider treating people on their individual actions. 
 
+Abdullah Mohammed  don't go to church, I know right from wrong and what is in the video and what you keep defending is wrong, but I bet more people are assisted financially by more synagogues and churches on average than Mosques, not to mention state and federal assistance to the poor. I would venture to guess our poor are living much better than yours. and yes we're all running around naked. and if someone doesn't like it, they don't have to look. I fear what the penalty is under Islam. I'm not going to continue to argue with you, as a matter of fact I would encourage everyone to block anyone posting comments defending what took place in this video.
 
+Abdullah Mohammed If there is one he won't be so insecure needing his flock to defend him and praise him all the time! You are insulting the concept of God! That's blasphemy for you! If God exists he doesn't need anyone defending and doing things for him. Isn't he supposed to be all powerful? Also, you can mention all the atrocities of other religions, but they all have moved on and have greatly reconciled with rationality but Religion of Peace not so(since it is supposed to be perfect there is no room for reform and reconciliation). This is the most primitive and fascist religion.  
 
+Bill Bartholomew Is that how you debate? you run away and tell everyone 'na na na boo boo' and cover their ears? Coward. And i never said that what was in the video was at all correct.. read my original post. But I do defend the act of stoning, again, given the extremely strict conditions, which I'm sure were not adhared to here... but God knows best...
 
+Ravi Shastry you have it wrong.. He is in no need for our praise and our glorifying Him, but it is befitting of us do to so.. He created us, and gave us everything.. He even gives to those that deny Him, and ascribe partners to him.. should we then be a little grateful?  Which of the things He has given to you do you deny??? (Chapter 55 in the Quran)
 
+Surbjit Singh I answered your attempt to link my using Google+ to following my religion, which existed since the dawn of time, which are in no way related. If you didnt get that, i really can't help you.
 
This is one of the most brutal act I've ever heard of, it's hard to have faith in humanity when low life people like this still exist.  I'm in tears, my heart goes out to that woman and countless of Afghan women who live their daily life in fear and raise their kids around brutality.  I really hope that Afghan people will be able to make progress and get rid of Taleban. 
 
You must be tired Surbjit. +Surbjit Singh said "That may be, however, is that necessarily a good thing? Does the Koran live up to today's standards, particularly in the west? Arguably, certain parts of it does not.  For instance: Shariah law." +Abdullah Mohammed said: "+Surbjit Singh It does actually live up to it.. you're just conditioned not to see it. I live in the West (born and bread), and I recently made hajj for the first time with my wife, and what we saw there amazed us... when the call to prayer is called, the people simply cover their stalls, and go to the prayer.. sometimes, they dont even close it... NO ONE STEALS... unbelievable?  go see for yourself.. We walked into a mall, like any other mall in the US, and immediately you get that usual feeling like the store clerk is watching you, as if you're going to steal something.. there? no one's watching.. everyone trusts you.. and we were foreigners..   we came back home, and our own people watch you like a hawk.. its amazing.   Ask yourself why Islam Finance instruments were not affected by the 2008 crisis, and still not.. and why folks are rushing to implement Islamic Banking all over the world..  Ask yourself why about a lot of your pre-conditioned thoughts about Islaam before you jump to conclusions, if you really want to reflect on the truth."
 
The share from +Vic Gundotra was unexpected. I'm only used to certain trendy tech posts.  Nonetheless I'm sure the majority of people agree this is disgusting and the beliefs of the people responsible is extremely misled.  What I'm more surprised about is the religious conversation. These extreme comments on the Day of Resurrection or how Islam is the religion of death...it's wrong (morally). Stop making this about all our differences and recognize....this woman is dead because of these same conversations...believing that your ideas are more correct than others and for that you can judge and ridicule and insult. You want to talk about civilized? Act civilized. Think before you speak.
 
+Abdullah Mohammed It is futile to argue with you as there is no space for the real God, which is Rationality. If you play Scripture Ostrich there is no argument! You win! 
 
Anyone aware of the UK trial of the parents of a 17 year old girl who was allegedly murdered by them for her 'Westernised lifestyle'? They're the ones who decided to raise a child in a westernised country.

What is it with these people?
 
+Abdullah Mohammed Have you heard about evolution? Forget it as it may not be acceptable to you as it is not mentioned in your scriptures!
 
:-( That's horrible. It's hard to believe that women in some parts of the world are treated so awfully.  <sigh>
 
This comment stream isn't about you and your beliefs. Nor is it about the people that disagree with you. Why is anyone defending their ideologies on this comment stream? This post has everything to do with the beliefs of the people in this video and those who encouraged it. Talking about Islam and Atheism or whatever....this isn't the right place and this isn't about you. Take it somewhere else.
 
First of all, I have to say that despite the controversial topic, +Abdullah Mohammed and others have spoken reasonably and not resorted to personal attacks and the usual nastiness that you see all too often when the subject of religion is raised. I believe the way +Google+ was constructed is a large part of the reason why. So score one big one for the Googlers.

Abdullah, in response to your riposte to my earlier comment, I do indeed disagree. I accept that it is possible that a religious faith will be put to good use. However, religion is not a pre-condition for morality. Even worse, any faith can be perverted to justify all manner of atrocities, a fact that you implicitly acknowledge: your defence of Islam was merely to say that Christianity has been even more murderous. The problem is not with any particular religion, but religion itself.

By the way, I live in Hong Kong where there is no debt crisis (not yet, anyway). Not everyone with critical views of Islam lives in the 50 states.
 
+Ravi Shastry We're not talking evolution. We're talking about the beginning of matter... Being an MBA, I"m surprised you're trying that. I'm asking you to demonstrate how matter was created without a Creator.
 
These guys are sick, disgusting.
 
Truly shocking and disgusting. How could you watch this and still believe there is a benevolent God watching and letting this happen? If it can't intervene that would be an impotent and useless god, if it can but does not intervene that would be a sick and malicious god not worthy of worship. Please note how the crowd is cheering "God is Great", well given the track record of what is carried out in its name, clearly that is not the case. The Hitch was right.
 
I am surprise at everyone's reaction. don't you guy Google injustice in the world. you will find a lot more stories which never makes to first page..

It is still a long way to go eradicate poverty, violence, inequality and injustice in the world.

Peace!
 
+Ravi Shastry "[The Quran Chapter 052 v035] Or were they created by nothing? Or were they themselves the creators?"
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 +Abdullah Mohammed +Ravi Shastry Why are guys debating creation vs evolution. Its so pointless because its something that can  NEVER be proved either way. Isnt it more useful to discuss why the above atrocity happened and how it can be prevented in the future.
 
That one and the sex-slave marriage story that was published recently.
Milty C
 
 +Abdullah Mohammed   Yes but why should the Taliban obey the government. Hasnt the Afghan government conspired with the infidels. This makes the Karzia government illegitimate, therefore jihad is justified. Therefore the Taliban feel justified for applying sharia law and stoning people etc.
 
I agree +Faris Moad !!  I was born and raised a Christian, and still am to this day.  I was in the Army and spent some time in Iraq and Afghanistan and got to know those people pretty well.  But I realize that my beliefs are different from theirs and not once did they ever judge me for my beliefs.  I realized then that not all people with differing beliefs are as extreme as our own!  Sure there are some extremists, but there are those crazies in every aspect of life.  I get emails and see FB posts all the time from people disrespecting other religions all the time, especially the Muslim religion.  They don't deserve that! 
 
+Milty C +Abdullah Mohammed  Disagree! Evolution is a fact and science! It may not be able to be proved visually as it took eons. Denying scientific facts lead us towards accepting regressive beliefs like this where the concept of God is reduced to disgruntled unhappy and angry task master. Screw the angry God!
 
Don't mix my words with your pre-conceptions, +Bill Bartholomew Stoning, giving the strict conditions in the sharia (which i mentioned earlier) is the solution outlined in the Sharia, and it is to be followed. And both Men and Women are stoned. And you lie.. if you read my initial post, I too and very distraught by this, one because of the poor woman who was probably (very likely) wrongfully accused, and very probably wrongfully tried, as I'm sure it was not carried out according to the Shariah, and those men in that case are in serious trouble (with their Lord). And again, don't mix what the Shariah is, and what these people do. The senior scholars of Saudia have called the Taliban the dogs of the fire, and I agree with them, but that is not to say that you can wantonly call Islaam into question because of what some foolish people are doing. 
 
+Milty C I dont know the answer to that. All I know is that the Muslim ruler is to be obeyed, even if they beat you and take your wealth, or even if they were a slave put in control of you... you obey the Muslim ruler/king, etc.
 
Thanks +Joshua Ulibarri I respect that statement. I don't think I know enough to claim I am of a religion, though I've been raised Muslim.  What I do know is moderate Christians, Muslims, and Jews get along. We see it all over the Middle East. We can coexhist providing our aim is to coexhist and respect one another. If you can respect yourself and others I think you've succeeded in life.
 
Nice....I agree, +Faris Moad  ...to be intolerant of anyone regardless of their belief is to fail yourself and everyone around you.  That is the way to survive in this world.  Just like someone said earlier though, you can argue with someone all you want, but you aren't going to convince them of anything until they experience it themselves. 
 
+Abdullah Mohammed If the right conditions were met (number of witnesses, stoning instead of shooting etc.,) then you are condoning such an act?! People like you are sick just like the angry God you worship! You have no right over somebody else's life. Period.
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+Abdullah Mohammed its in the Koran. Any power or government that doesnt apply Sharia Law or allows infidel forces into their country,  is an enemy of god. It is therefore to duty of all muslims to wage jihad on this country . Therefore by this logic the taliban is justified
 
Your first post only hopes for the sake of the people committed the act, that they acted in accordance with Sharia law. You did not mention any compassion for this poor woman. I also must correct you that I specified extremists. Which hopefully you would at least agree the perpetrators and onlookers were.
To further my case, let's assume all of the requirements of Sharia law was met, I'm willing to bet all of these compassionate, caring, civilized people would be just as outraged. Get it? We don't kill adulterous people in our legal system and we certainly wouldn't do it in a tortuous way such as stoning. 
 
+Ravi Shastry I never said that I would carry out the punishment. This is tried in a court, with a Judge and witnesses, and sentencing. And yes, this is the Islamic punishment for this crime, and it is sufficient as a deterrent, and the punishment in the hereafter is probably worse.. may God save us from it and its punishment. 
 
+Abdullah Mohammed Please don't include me when you say "..God save us...". I want to stay far away from such angry God who amuses himself tormenting hapless people. 
I did not say that you will carry out such punishment either but you are condoning or approving such barbarity! 
 
+Bill Bartholomew Then why did you Christians burn suspected witches (as an example)? Was the all of Christendom wrong up to the 1900s ?
 
It's the middle ages over there and they are just backwards and ignorant. Regardless of differences in society,religion whatever this isn't acceptable now and it wasn't acceptable at any time. Get with a modern world and stop brutalizing your own population of that of others.
 
+Ravi Shastry that's what I've been trying to get through to him instead he would rather insult me, so I will quit debating, he can call me what he would like and let the plus one's decide who has true love and compassion for others.
 
+Dean Montague you mean like what Bush and Obama are doing to your healthcare system, effectively turning all of the working class into slaves?.. 
 
+Abdullah Mohammed  If I knew I would have told you! That doesn't mean you can play Scripture Ostrich every time. Admitting your ignorance is better than repeating medieval story as proof.
 
It's human nature that's no longer needed thanks to modern society and religion is only the excuse to make it "OK". No fundamental religion condones the sort of violence we see every day in the middle east in the name of one religion or another. Any yahoo can (and often does) spin-off their own religion, gain followers, and tweak the rules according to their own agenda. Hell, the largest single religion in the world does it. Last century dresses were wrong and now they aren't. Last decade birth control was wrong and now it isn't. Last week....... Get it? Why can't people just realize that the majority agree on some pretty fundamental things in life (don't kill, steal, cheat, etc..) and go on their merry way? Sick of hearing about entitlement too. If YOU didn't suffer you great-great-great-great grandparents issues, YOU don't have any claim to them.
 
+Ravi Shastry So you follow nothing? Your life has no purpose? How could you not have an answer for who created you?
 
Well twice you have called me a liar... Shall I go on?
 
I think we all appear to be missing the point here, which is that god doesn't exist, and the bible and quran were written by people. Also a man shot a woman nine times, which is never okay.
 
+Ravi Shastry so no answer then. You dont know who created you, and who gave you everything in a balanced way "in nature".. even the moon is there as a Mercy to you.. and yet, you still dont know?
 
+Abdullah Mohammed I repeat I don't know. But that doesn't gets you bore me with your medieval and regressive theories.
 
+Ravi Shastry It doesnt bother you that something created all of this..? I'm sure you've done business case studies in your MBA.. what was His "Strategic Intent" behind the Creation.. you think it was all in jest?
 
+Abdullah Mohammed I don't know either, but we (i.e. humans) are getting better at finding the answers.

Just because I don't know the answer to a question doesn't mean I get to make one up. If you're going to make up an answer because you don't know, then I'm afraid the burden of proof lies with you.
 
You're not even reading my post now, this is ridiculous. If you think I insulted your whole religion, fine, go ahead and think that, if I did, guess what I can because I am a free thinking individual with the right to do so. Your attempted attacks on the US and Christianity are not the same? Dude, we've been over this with you. Show compassion for this woman or not and go on your way. This is about her and what these misguided monsters have done to her. I'm seriously blue in the face.
 
+Bill Bartholomew I think the thing is that he doesn't show compassion. He's splitting hairs over whether there were enough witnesses according to shariah law, and whether she was executed properly (i.e. she really should have been stoned instead). 
 
+Bill Bartholomew I"ve read your posts Bill, but it's like you're not reading mine. From the very beginning i've been saying that I feel truly sorry for her.. I have a mother, and a wife, and hopefully daughters (all sons so far), and I trely do, because as i said (looking at you +Dave O'Connor), I'm sure she was probably wrongfully accused and  wrongfully tried, and as such, the men there are in serious trouble with their Lord. It seems to me +Bill Bartholomew  that you can't separate in your mind that while I do agree that stoning is the best form of punishment for this crime (regardless of what you say, that is my belief), I certainly DO NOT agree with the Taliban, and like-minded individuals executing this on their own.. This is for a government to do, with a judge, and a court-room, and witnesses. It is a form of capital punishment just as any other.. just as your electrocution and lethal injections in Texas (which by the way, people end up dying far more liberally than stoning, if you check).
 
+Abdullah Mohammed Blasphemy warning!! You are insulting the Creator with analyzing his "Strategic Intent"! Any case I surrender to your Scripture Ostrich stand! And it may be time for your morning prayers to Almighty to keep the social order even if it means killing few in the Kingdom as well as other places where Believers live! Peace!
 
+Ravi Shastry no.. God asks you (yes you) that same question in the Quran, Chapter 23, verse 115: "Did ye then think that We had created you in jest, and that ye would not be brought back to Us (for account)?"
 
+Ravi Shastry and the answer to which is, in the same Quran, chapter 51, ver 56 "I have only created Jinns and men, that they may worship Me."
 
+Abdullah Mohammed Your compassion melts my heart. Yes, let's give everyone a fair trial before we beat them to death with heavy rocks. After all, a book written by people hundreds of years ago (in english, since that's what you're quoting) says so.
 
I don't think its about a religion or any religion, but the sick interpretation of the holy book that is really skewed the practice.
 
+Dave O'Connor sigh.. i'm tired Dave. When you want to talk about compassion, let's talk about all the wonderful ways that the American excuse for democracy takes money for the poor, hungry, starving Americans, and gives it to a few hundred rich folks living in Florida and Washington, which at the same time, sends 10's of 1000's of innocent young men and women to kill and murder other innocent young men and women in their soverign home countries, while, ironically (and this is the best part..), selling it as "promoting freedom"... sigh.
Milty C
 
As requested +Abdullah Mohammed 
Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"  

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
 
+Milty C Firstly your copy/pasting is from improper translations, you should go to www.noblequran.com for better translations of the Arabic. and Secondly, these all apply to fighting and punishment under a Muslim ruler, not by a single group of rebels imposing marshal-law. .. and that is not what we were discussing.. where is the proof that you can topple the leader? There is no proof for that in what you quoted there.. again, those quotations are for warfare.. and literal hand-to-hand, ground-combat warfare, not the sick suicide-bombing clandestine madness.  
 
Oh, to answer your question +Abdullah Mohammed
After I posted the following you called me a coward:

+Abdullah Mohammed  don't go to church, I know right from wrong and what is in the video and what you keep defending is wrong, but I bet more people are assisted financially by more synagogues and churches on average than Mosques, not to mention state and federal assistance to the poor. I would venture to guess our poor are living much better than yours. and yes we're all running around naked. and if someone doesn't like it, they don't have to look. I fear what the penalty is under Islam. I'm not going to continue to argue with you, as a matter of fact I would encourage everyone to block anyone posting comments defending what took place in this video.

This was your answer: Is that how you debate? you run away and tell everyone na na na boo boo and cover their ears? Coward.

That sir was your insult to me after I told you I was done arguing. There was no debate. And I see nothing wrong for calling for a blocking of anyone defending what took place in this video. You say you do not defend it without proper Sharia law applied. I say it is indefensible with any law applied. And with that I will say Good night. I have spent more time than I should have on this subject, considering the majority of my time was trying to find compassion in your heart for a fellow human, which I never saw and that's sad.
 
+Abdullah Mohammed I am gonna kick myself for getting involved in this but WTH. Every point you have made is based on one assumption, that whatever is said in Quran is The fact. That is nothing but circular logic. You can not say you are right because it says so in a Book, which could be a work of fiction. I say this with no intention to hurt your or any religion' followers sentiments. I make this statement for the sake of logical argument. Do you ever stop and think, what if...??? What if every thing you believe AS IS, might be just somebody's wild fiction. You have no right to question other religions without first questioning your own religion (using the same cynicism). For your question directed at +Ravi Shastry about creation. I at least have some semblance of an explanation using current scientific knowledge. Why don't you think if your God really created the universe as we know now including matter, who created Him, before that?? Once again, all of this is just so that you can stop being a "scripture ostrich", to quote from another comment in this thread.
 
+Bill Bartholomew again you lie.. i'm leaning towards thinking you are probably really a liar.. sigih.. i never defended what was happening in this video.. quite the opposite, although for some reason you're blinded from seeing that.. but I am defending Islaam. And you're right, i did call you a coward after you ran away with your fingers in your ears not wanting to hear my arguments. sorry about that /end sarcasm/
 
+anunaya aashish I suppose you should kick yourself. I have not presented verses of the Quran as evidence of itself, though I do believe it to be true. I've only presented arguements that defend the Islamic law, viz a viz what's going on in this video, which is why i'm more than a little upset at +Vic Gundotra, because people see this madness and then jump on tirades about Islaam, which are not correct, and a bit irresponsible of him. As for the 'who created God' argument, first answer my question of how matter came into existence, and we'll move on to that later on.
 
+Abdullah Mohammed How is that relevant? I'm not American, and I'm not Christian. There's more to this life than Islam vs. America/Christianity you know. It is about the benchmark of human decency, which you can either figure out for yourself, or transcribe for yourself from a book, because that's what you've been taught. Believe me, there are a lot of things I don't like about how modern society works, but I don't get to say stoning people to death is okay because of it.

I see you're also getting into debates already about 'improper' translations. Do you mean 'aberrant', as 4 of the 10 possible pronunciations/translations of the original text are? Which of the Qira'at do you subscribe to? Your answer is important, since you seem to be okay with stoning people to death for social misdemenaours (or getting raped) based on its say-so.
 
Please see my earlier comment. This whole thread confirms the insanity.
 
+Dave O'Connor Who said anything about Islam vs. America? You mentioned compassion, and I'm feeling sorry for all the troops stuck in foreign countries ad infinitum, and for all the families of the folks that were killed by some of these troops illegitimately. As for the Qiraat, Qiraat means reading (or recitation, as in melody)... the Quran is one text (all the same words and letters), but can be recited in 7 ways, all with the same meaning. Apparently you havent heard the Quran.. it's not poetry, but because the Arabic is so beautiful, it sounds melodious, and each Qiraat is just a little different (in melody) from the next.. I like Warsh, but Hafs is the most popular. You can listen to Chapter 25 (one of my favourites) here: http://download.quranicaudio.com/quran/saleh_al_taleb/025.mp3
Milty C
 
Im sorry, but according to the koran quotes the Taliban is justified. An infidel nation over-throwing a muslim nation. If thats not causing fitna / oppression then what is. 
 
+Abdullah Mohammed You seem to be citing capital punishment, sending armies to die and kill innocents, that kind of thing as "This is just as barbaric as Shariah law", thus excusing yourself. You really shouldn't need to do this -- there are many western or secular societies that manage to not have capital punishment, not send armies on aggressive actions, and manage just fine without stoning rape victims to death, thanks very much.

I've only done beginner-level arabic, but I do know that pronunciation affects the stem of many words in arabic, thus changing their meaning in context. At this point you've both claimed a translation someone else cited is invalid, and also claimed that all translations are the same, so I'm going to assume you're just suiting your own purposes in this argument.
 
+Milty C I dont know about that, but the ruler is a Muslim, and you do not rise up against a Muslim ruler (if you are living there).. lots of the "arab springers" needs to hear that also. It's a clear hadith.
 
+Abdullah Mohammed I was not questioning Islam. I was questioning exactly what you agreed to in the post addressed towards me. You believe in Islamic law 'coz you believe in Islam. Because of that belief you are defending Islamic law. I didn't mention about the video at all. What I said was, even the parts of the Islamic law that you defend (like stoning) sounds barbaric to us. But you can defend it because you believe in your religion without questioning it at all. And I would say the same thing to any one from any religion. And going back to my point about 'who created God'. I at least have some explanation about how matter was created during birth of Universe, based on current scientific understandings. I am not gonna get into the details, if you don't know it already, it's a simple Google search away:) However you can not skirt the question away because I am not hiding behind an assumption. The scientific community continues to strive to answer all similar questions. However you make an assumption, or are told to, and stick to it. How about questioning or explaining that??
 
+Abdullah Mohammed For the love of God, read it for the third time I didn't say You defended the video in that comment, I said anyone that did defend the video should be blocked. Are you possibly handicapped in some way that I should be aware of?  I'm sensing possibly Asperger's Disorder. The first clue was when you corrected me and said that you did not call me a liar, you said that I lie. seriously, now I'm starting to laugh out loud at your feeble attempts to do me in.
 
+Dave O'Connor No Dave. Is English your mother tongue? What do you know about Shariah law outside of what you've heard from the BBC, CNN, and FoxNews? Anything?  And capital punishment is established in the Shariah (given very strict cavets) for adultry, not rape victims.. who's talking about rape victims?? Rape victims are counselled, and rehabilitated as far as I know.   And as for the Qirat, you are mixing up (hopefully unintentionally) Arabic->English translation, and melodic-reading in Arabic.. Qiraat is the reading of the  Quran in Arabic in different melodic ways... no meaning is changed. EN->AR Translation is where you try to translate the Arabic into english, and there are MANY subtle variations in this, some more authentic and reliable than others, which is why we still have the original Arabic.   Hope you got that.
 
and this is why I hate religion and politics. What the hell was I thinking? :) So how bot that Nexus 7 huh? :)
 
+Bill Bartholomew +Abdullah Mohammed +Milty C +Dave O'Connor 

This is a strange debate...some illiterate people in a poor and primitive country shot one of their women who even otherwise had no human kind of rights and whose life was a curse from the time she was born...by being shot that poor women, God bless her soul, has actually got respite from a life of torture and exploitation...the people who shot her would have themselves not understood what they have done, except that they would have earned a few more days of employment as executioners on the payrolls of the Taleban...for them it was just a job to be done...

To imagine that illiterate people are seething with religious fervor driven by high ideals is stretching credulity...people whose total professional knowledge base is limited to how to handle an AK 47 so as to earn their daily bread and salt, cannot be too conversant with the fine nuances of scriptures...there is no space for theological debates in such societies...people are told what is right and wrong and allowed to subsist at the edge of poverty if they agree...

The US used these desperate people in their war against communism...when the war was won, the US just left the theater....a generation of Afghans had grown up knowing nothing else but AK47s and rocket fired grenades...they were forced to disband when their employer, the US withdrew....

The least the US owed this generation was some life sustaining pensions for all those who fought on its behalf...these innocent ignoramuses had given the best part of their lives fighting for the American's cause, but were left stranded in mid life with no survival skills for a non-war existence...so they became easy fodder for all the warped interpretations of scriptures and the opera goes on and on...
 
+Bill Bartholomew one or two lies doesnt make someone a liar bill, although i'm beginning to think you are now. You lied again. You are addressing me.. read your post again, at (1012p-4GMT): +Abdullah Mohammed  don't go to church, I know right from wrong and what is in the video and what you keep defending is wrong, but I bet more people are assisted financially by more synagogues and churches on average than Mosques, not to mention state and federal assistance to the poor. I would venture to guess our poor are living much better than yours. and yes we're all running around naked. and if someone doesn't like it, they don't have to look. I fear what the penalty is under Islam. I'm not going to continue to argue with you, as a matter of fact I would encourage everyone to block anyone posting comments defending what took place in this video.
Milty C
 
+Abdullah Mohammed So your saying its ok for an infidel nation to overthrow the muslim taliban like the US did in 2001 Doesnt sound very koranic to me. 
 
+Milty C I'm saying I dont know the correct ruling regarding the US and the Taliban.. those are questions for the grey-bearded ones from the Senior Islamic Scholars of Saudi Arabia, like Shaykh Fawzan.  What I am saying is that if you're a Muslim, and you find yourself under a Muslim ruler, it is upon you to obey that ruler, even if he beats you and takes your wealth.. You obey the king/ruler/president... because if you seek to overthrow him, then the fitna (tribulations) that would occur thereafter would be worse than what you thought you had.. which is exactly what we're seeing in Egypt..
 
+Vic Gundotra Where religion is concerned, IMHO, it becomes a hot button topic where seemingly rationale people become irrational.
 
Wow, this thread got de-railed. BUT, it's good to see spirited discussion. You don't get this kind of talk on any other social network. </rant> Please continue.
 
+Abdullah Mohammed The Quran (as specified in your own translation) is pretty clear on this -- in order to prove rape, you need the rapist to admit it -- if he happens to be married to the woman, his testimony also counts as 4 testimonies. If she accuses him, she needs 4 witnesses (not less than 4, of course, otherwise all her witnesses get 80 lashes). If a woman can't prove rape, then she is guilty of adultery (since she claimed to have had sex with the man, and the man proves it was consensual by his testimony). She then gets stoned to death.

Gripping stuff. It makes the tales of western medieval torture and barbarism look tame by comparison.

http://aa.trinimuslims.com/ilm/noblequraan/page350.htm
 
Парадокс. Христиане осуждают наказание блудницы. В законе Божьем сказано что таких надо побивать камнями. Так талибы и поступают. И Бог говорит о том что так или еще хуже будет со всяким грешником который не раскаялся в своих грехах. Чего же вы хотите, помиловать грешника без покаяния или оправдать грех?
Translate
 
+Dave O'Connor a fornicator in Christianity and Islaam Dave, is someone who has sex before marriage.. i'm not seeing where rape is coming into this. Show me where it say's rape, that is, as you put it, 'pretty clear'.
 
yes, +Abdullah Mohammed you pointed it out most correctly , what is in the video and what you keep defending is wrong. you are defending in your words"after a proper trial (by basically religious leaders)" death to adulterers in a most brutal manner. sorry to bust your bubble, but that's wrong. We don't kill fornicators either.
 
+Milty C "Infidel nation?" Seriously? You do realize that this nation was founded on biblical principals right? That might not be the faith that you subscribe to, but it is faith just the same. We also have faith to believe that you should have the right to live your life without oppression from anyone. Especially immoral idiots (ie "Taliban) who blow up buildings and schools, and shoot unarmed women in the back to "honor" their faith. The word Coward in this context is an understatement of epic proportions.

PS A true deity is a creator of life, and his followers should exemplify that. Anything else is man made dogma designed to justify their own ends. Don't be ignorant.
 
Let's compare crimes committed, and justified by the three religions... guess what? All of them are making no sense in term of the original message of that religion (only proven right by a misguided/misguiding closed to their ONE way to see things people). We all know that JEWS killing children in the West-bank and Gazza aren't true ONES, the KKK (just and example) are far of being true Christians. The Taliban Folks are way lost from the original script of Islam. If we see the "truth" behind these three religions, they're only separated by one tiny line of "PERSONAL" beliefs... and unfortunately, that what people are capturing the most from the sense of any religion. If you found this video utterly bad (As I do), you would feel the same things when reading or watching crimes committed and proven by the name of Christianity (the KKK, Hitler, the new CRUSADE ... ) or Judaism (Mainly killing innocent people in Palestine). Take a look at the three religions, you may find that they're basically the same... THE SAME!!!!!
 
+Bill Bartholomew  so why did you lie bill? and if something is wrong by your standards, does it make it wrong by everyone else's? (again, speaking specifically of legislated stoning, not this what's going on in this vid). Isn't that a bit etho-centric? What makes your morals right, when in actuality, lots of your morality has been lost over the last few decades.. ask your grandmother what she wore to church... if she dared walked into church with even her head uncovered, she probably would've gottoned stoned with some pretty heavy bibles...
Milty C
 
+Abdullah Mohammed I find the fact that you dont know the answer to this question very troubling. Islamists and extremist all around the world are using this very thing to justify jihad and terrorism. This is why people like you need to come out and say clearly that jihad warfare and violence is NEVER justified and convince everyone else aswell.  

If you say that jihad is justified for fitna or oppression, then  there will always be people who will take advantage of this , because fitna and oppression is in the eye of the beholder.

Its very easy for someone to claim oppression as a pretense for launching jihad and this is whats happening all around the world.
 
HAHAHAHAHa! Oh those where the good old days, Stoning Grandma as she walked up the steps of the Church with the top of her head showing. remember guys how we would fill our Bibles with lead and beat her with them, then we'd kick her down the bottom of the steps. Then when she reached the bottom, well her dress would be in disarray and her ankles would be showing, so we'd tie her up behind the pick-up truck and drag her down main street? Ah, Good Times, Good, Good Times.
 
+Abdullah Mohammed In practice, a 'fornicator' includes women who can't prove they were raped, under extraordinarily unfair rules.

So even if a woman has a DNA tests that proves she was raped, the man's testimony gets him off scott-free under shariah law, because he can just say it was consensual.
 
+Milty C Jihaad is very much justified, and I would be the first to kill you if we were fighting an open combat war, like two countries fighting, and you were a soldier, and i was a solider, and I was fighting under a Muslim King or President. But until then, this is my jihad,,, defending Islaam by the pen (or g+ in this case). You can find a lot of literature from the scholars on "islaam against terrorism", and the proper use of islamic warfare everywhere, if you look,,,, like here: http://aa.trinimuslims.com/ilm/?book=islaam_agaisnt_terrorism
 
+Dave O'Connor firstly, where is your evidence that this is "in practice", and secondly, if that's the case, where is your evidence that this is from the Shariah (ie, an authentic practice)?
 
+Abdullah Mohammed Actually, forget it. I did what I intended not to do, get into a Shariah/Islam debate.

Shariah and the Quran was written by delusional desert-wanderers more than a thousand years ago, for who-knows-what reason. I wasn't even commenting on the video, you can pretty much discount all of Shariah on the grounds that it was made up from scratch as a work of complete fiction.

If you find that, offensive, too bad. I find your medieval and barbaric views offensive and ludicrous, so let's just agree to disagree and see what happens. Secularisation won't come during any of our lifetimes, but mass informational connectivity and ubiquitous access to sources of information that aren't complete bullshit are only really less than 20 years old. I give the abrahamic religions a couple hundred years, tops. In the meantime, have fun being an anachronism.
 
I wish there was a God so that I could meet the him and give him a piece of my mind. Egotistic maniac.
 
Religion should be forbidden, this is the cause of all the bad things happening in the world
 
of course the real fun came on Saturday nights when we would call for our dancing boys, now there was some fun, wink, wink...
 
+Dave O'Connor And i find your way, and your manners offensive Dave... but i guess if you believe in nothing then anything goes.
 
+Bill Bartholomew and so it goes... you've lost your arguement, you've misconstrued and twisted my words, you havent answered any of my questions, and now you're just trolling.   sigh.. checkmate Bill, and goodnight.
 
you guys think the dancing boys comment touched a nerve? :)
 
+Bill Bartholomew perhaps.. i'm trying to figure out why you would be setting up your grandmother to be raped by a bunch of dancing boys....
 
+Bill Bartholomew so anyway,  If you have any further questions on Islaam, you can email me at abdullah@trinimuslims.com. Goodnight.
 
+Abdullah Mohammed  I hope you realize that you are making a fool out of yourself and probably causing embarrassment to a lot of your coreligionists. Every religion has its time and place and is good for it. Do you think promising 72 voluptuous virgins in heaven to "believing men" (what about women?) is the hallmark of a great modern religion? I'm sure you would find some passage in the Quran to argue why this heavenly reward is given however this is the day and age to think and decide with facts and data - not using words that were written a millennium ago.
 
+Vic Gundotra Close, but no coconut: only belief can make good men do evil things. Communism was explicitly anti religious, after all. Unless you define religion to be the type of belief which can cause good men to do evil things. Which is quite a good definition, but a bit circular in this context, don't you think?

+Abdullah Mohammed thank you so much for sticking the course on this one. Whilst I find the idea of state murder repulsive in all it's forms, it's good to see a rational defence of Islam that doesn't sugar coat it. This is the best I've seen anywhere.

And the answer to your question, btw, is that there doesn't need to be a creator before the beginning of time. There is no logical reason why time needs to go back before the big bang.
 
All I'm going to say is please don't stereotype islam as what the taliban show you cause it is not.
It'll be like me saying since usa Army does drone attacks in tribal areas of Pakistan which also leads to deaths of innocent women and children the whole of USA is filled with barbarians.
Oh you guys can also read
±Eric Schmidt post how what he saw was completely different from what the internet and tv showed about Pakistan. All it took was one day in Pakistan :-)

I AM IN NO WAY IMPLYING THAT USA IS. I AM JUST MAKING A POINT STOP IT WITH THE BRANDING OF THE WHOLE COMMUNITY JUST BECAUSE OF THE ACT OF A FEW PEACE.
BACK TO THE TOPIC NOW.
It is wrong what happened to the woman.

+Abdullah Mohammed all I will say you did your best and I just remember the Quran after seeing this whole conversation. You know a point made in Al- Isra, Al-Ahqaf and Al-Anfal :-) no point in arguing with them.
 
The video displays a gross act of crime on humanity, my hope is that the individuals are found and Karazai follows through with bringing justice for this woman. That said, the intellectual level of discourse is not very high from those that chose to question  +Abdullah Mohammed fundamental beliefs. When one questions another, intellect wants to obtain information in order to understand the other individual's stance on the issue debated.

I have read the thread throughout and have concluded that those who chose to debate +Abdullah Mohammed resulted in arguing with him and did so in an attempt to discredit him and prove him wrong because of his belief system, and no one has the right to call into question anyones fundamental beliefs, in particular if they do not deprive you of your own. 

The comments seem to state, "I am right and you are wrong" and attempt to pursuede him to deviate him from his fundamental beliefs without educating themselves foremost, about what he defends, Islam. 

Again, extremist come in all forms of religion. 

It seems the ignorant become rabid and generalize irresponsibly when Islam is mentioned because of the mass hysteria fostered by the media after 9/11. And rather than educate, they set a precast for this very behavior.

Freedom is an entitlement in this country and when you attempt to deny someone freedom of creed, sexual orientation, lifestyle, etc., you are denying and contradicting the very thing this country fights for here and abroad.

Being reactive, as opposed to stopping to think of what the person is saying, is counterintuitive. 

When debating from a biased perspective it becomes a counterproductive argument and impedes the art of compromise. "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it". Aristotle

Most of his arguments have logic. Just because it differs from yours, does not indicate he is wrong. It takes intellect to be able to transcend subject matter divisions. Sometimes, walking away is harder when you commit to an unfounded need for justification.

If you are not interested in understanding the reasons behind what he believes, then the wisest path would be to not engage him.

Edit: typos
 
+Muhammad Zohaib Rizwani I agree: everyone has made their position clear, no one is going to change and it is probably time to move on.

This is not to say that there was never any point in arguing. 

As I said above, I am grateful to +Abdullah Mohammed for keeping up his jihad. He may not convince +Bill Bartholomew or +Dave O'Connor (did he ever seriously expect to?), but he has challenged established prejudices with his own, and explained these clearly and courteously to the wider audience. I hope to hear more comments from him in other discussions.
 
+Angelica Dzana " no one has the right to call into question anyones fundamental beliefs"

We live in a free society and should question fundamental beliefs of  others (especially if those beliefs condone killing of women for adultery).  It is cowardice on the part of people who choose not to oppose oppression when religion/culture is the underlying motivation.
 
What could, should, would Google do about it. Besides sounding indignant?
 
I noticed that more than 200 comments on this news. But surprise to see no one commented against the act of adultery! Everyone crying for the woman. Yes, Allah prescribed the punishment for adultery is stoning to death. The human mind always runs in smaller circle. But the creator of us knows what is best for us. 
But at the same time, Allah says whoever kills an innocent, its like killing the whole humanity.It is media who hypes such message to defame Islam. But Allah is best of best planners. Today the world is reverting back to Islam.
 
The above dude is a in-human in justifying such a ghastly act.. What about the person whom she was with. ?
 
+Samuel Thomas obviously, you fit the perfect profile I just finished explaining. Solely because of your lack of wanting to understand what I just commented, I couldn't have been more erudite, I won't be entertaining any further comments from you. 
 
What's sicker yet, this goes on in America too. The Taliban is no more than a gang of thugs hiding behind religion.
 
What ever somebody says or is printed in books, It is wrong to kill people. It is that simple. (And if I had a cow, she would add not to kill animals either)
 
And HOW many stood on the hill, watching and cheering!?! Were they all Taliban too?
 
+Abdullah Mohammed I want to make sure I understand correctly. Would I be correct to say that although you condem the shooting of this woman for adultery (as does everyone on this thread) it is not that you condem the punishment of death for adultery but the way in which the trial and/or shooting was carried out? In short - do you agree with the death penalty for adultery as per sharia law?
Do you also live in a country where sharia law is practiced and if not would you like sharia law to be practised in the country where you live?
I think the people discussing with you feel threatened that this is the case. That you are profiting from the freedom of the country that you live to try to bring about a sharia law and in some way affect their freedoms. As long as you defend the freedom of these people to continue their way of life as much as you defend your right to believe what you believe I think these people would be your allies.
 
First of all - the video. If you guys (non-Muslims) think that what happened in the video is wrong because something is definitely wrong with Taliban then it's okay. But if you think the video is bad because Islam is bad and wrong - then there is a problem. That's why +Abdullah Mohammed spent so much time answering your questions and pointing out to all of you that Islam is not what you see on TVs, and other media. May Allah be pleased with you +Abdullah Mohammed
Second, +Abdullah Mohammed has described (I guess) the RIGHT way of performing the "stoning" - i.e. the government, court, judge, witnesses and etc. The main reason why you can't accept it is the lack of belief in the Day of Resurrection and in what will happen after it. If you believed in it enough, you would definitely want to pay for your bad deeds before the death rather than paying for them in hereafter. 
Allah absolutely doesn't need our worshipping, everything what Allah commands to do is for our own benefit ONLY. The benefit which we will get in this life and also in hereafter. And disobedience leads to troubles in this life and troubles in hereafter. That's the point - your actions determine who you are and you get what you do. Nothing in Creation is for fun and as it was already said the meaning of this life is worshipping Allah while worshipping - is compliance with commands of Allah. If you want balance and peace on our planet - Islam is the solution. There is great and very deep wisdom in all those rules, trust me, including the "stoning" if you think on it carefully. Pride, prejudice, ignorance, steretypes, lazyness, weakness prevent from getting this solution. Now you all see only the troubles you may call on yourselves and that's why you are bothered with "angriness of god" as some of you wrote, but you are forgetting about rewards you might be granted for doing what is good, and it's important that good starts from believing in Allah and his messenger. 
And let's not humiliate each other, if you want to figure something out - ask, nothing personal.
And Allah knows best.

+Bill Bartholomew +Dave O'Connor +Ravi Shastry 
 
Blaming Islam for the Taliban is like blaming Christianity for the KKK.
You can find an excuse to act like a jerk within the framework of any religion.
We need to oppose the jerks, and leave the religions be.
 
One thing is very important: Qu'ran, Sharia, and stupidity are all separate.

The Qu'ran is the holy book of Islam. Like all religious texts, it can be considered imperfect because it was written by Man, even though it is the Word of God for Muslims. Ignoring this fact does a disservice to Muslims everywhere, as Muslims believe only God is perfect. Unlike the Bible, the Qu'ran has many of the guiding principles that were defined in the Tawrat. While a lot of them were extended, they are still roughly analogous to the Jewish counterparts. For example: the kosher/halal food thing. Certain foods are forbidden in Judaism (and consequently Islam as well) because back then no one could reliably clean the meat to eat it. If a lot of people died from eating it, then to them, it means that you shouldn't eat it. Easiest way to keep people from eating it is to make it a law in religion. Pork is a common example of this.

There's nothing inherently wrong about Islam, though. Unless you think Christianity and Judaism are also inherently bad, you can't think Islam is bad because the three are extremely similar. Heck, all three share the same ideological base!

The Sharia is an extension of what is defined in the Qu'ran. To be absolutely clear: The Qu'ran does not explicitly define Sharia anywhere. Sharia was developed as a way to govern "justly" by Islamic principles. It's not that much different in that regard to theocratic monarchies set up by Europeans just before the Middle Ages. The problem is that Sharia didn't evolve properly. Over time, Europeans gradually shed the theocratic government system in favor of secular monarchies or secular democracies. This did not happen in the Middle East! What happened was that tolerant Muslim governments became crazy and started becoming intolerant and very strict. Essentially a devolving of government to fundamentalist extremism. A lot of this was from fear. Europe and Asia started passing up the "innovative" Middle East. The Middle East historically has done a lot for the sciences because it bridged Europe and Asia and could be influenced by both to develop completely new ideas. Sometime around the late 18th century to the early 19th century, this started to change.

The Timurids fell apart in the 15th century and the leftovers became Persia, Afghanistan, and a few others. Notably, the Mughal Empire sprung from this and ruled the Indian subcontinent. These new countries and empires did very well for themselves up until the 18th century. The Persians started the Safavid dynasty, which was a hotbed of development. Sciences and Arts flourished. The concept of a system of checks and balances comes from them. The modern concept of common law and formal law comes from them too.

In the mid-1700s, the Europeans began expanding and bending other regions to their wills. Non-European empires also began crumbling. The Persian Empire broke apart. The Afghans came under the complete rule of the Mughals until they too crumbled. The British was responsible for that one. In response, many Middle Eastern Empires began closing their doors to Europeans, dealing exclusively with Asians. This didn't work out well either, as the Asians were being heavily influenced by the British, the Portuguese, and the Americans.

When the Industrial Revolution hit Europe and Asia, the Middle East was left with nothing, until they discovered oil. This allowed decadence to flourish, because they had a guaranteed supply of money to support their people. Things continued to get worse and worse. The Ottoman Empire fell apart after World War I. The British took over Palestine and carved out Israel from it in World War II. After World War II, the USSR started steamrolling countries and forcing atheism and communism down their throats. The U.S. stepped in and started funding organizations like the Taliban in response to that. When the USSR crumbled and the Soviets left Afghanistan, the U.S. left hoping that the Taliban would keep its end of the bargain. Needless to say, the Taliban didn't. A decade of insanity in Afghanistan began out of that.

Then after they were deposed in the early 2000s, the U.S. remained in order to bring things back to working order. It's a very difficult challenge, compounded by the fact that Afghans are highly distrustful of Americans. Unlike with the Japanese 50 years prior, the U.S. couldn't get everyone to work together to stabilize the country. So, here we are.

I find it depressing that the United States is the only country that seems to really want to try to fix what it broke. It's even trying to fix problems caused by other countries. The British still refuse to acknowledge that they pretty much caused the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict, for one. The United States has been trying to fix that situation for decades, with little to no help from anyone else.
 
Firstly, the video of the Afghan woman being killed in front of a cheering crowd is horrible & indefensible. Truly, humanity at it's worst. I seriously have to wonder about those who can't see how wrong this (& acts like it) is, and would defend it as "acceptable" (whether or not it meets all criteria set forth by any religious law, faith or belief).

I personally don't prescribe to any set of religious/religion-based practices or beliefs. I am perfectly okay & at peace thinking that we live our lives, die, & that's it. Eternal dirt nap. No streets or mansions of gold in the "afterlife", no multitude of virgins, no unicorns & rainbows, no anything. I don't feel slighted by how I view it. I don't feel like my life is missing anything & I'm fine without trying to figure out what my "purpose" in life is. I know right from wrong, I try to treat everyone the way I want to be treated & I try to help anyone who needs it (when I can, as often as I can) without any expectation of glorious rewards either in this life or some extraordinary afterlife. To me, that's simply part of being a decent neighbor & human being.

People want to whine & complain about how someone else to judges & disrespects their religion (beliefs, faiths, etc.), but I get that all the time (from "The Believers"). Sometimes it's not exactly what they say or even how they say it, rather, the look on their face(s) says it all. The fact is, none of us know for sure how we came into being or why. In the grand scheme of things, does it really even matter?

As for me, I hate seeing anyone being persecuted for what they believe or being subjected to brutality because of what others believe. Period.
 
To clear up a few things, since I appear to now be anti-islam -- I am not specifically anti-islam. I am pro-human. It is not okay to stone people to death, ever. It is barbaric, and the dogma behind it was written by people, not god.

Secondly, the idea that I am somehow not allowed to question another's beliefs is ludicrous. The burden of proof is on you. If you choose to believe a thing, that is okay, and i am happy for you. However, this isn't enough for either radical Islam or Christianity: they both strive to enforce an ancient belief system onto a modern secular society. That is not okay.

Lastly, I'm also not claiming that the guy in the video, or the Taliban in general represent 'Islam' in the same way the crusades didn't represent modern Christianity. What is in the video is atrocious. The barbarism of shariah law as interpreted by even the most soft of clerics is also atrocious.

Lastly, nobody believes in 'nothing'. The moral code of humanity is malleable, and always has been. I believe in love and respect for felloe humans. That includes respect in beliefs that offer others comfort. It does not include respect for the right to kill or maim based on dogma.
 
but , what about killing people by american army ....if u judge this act u must judging all the criminal act of the american army
 
 
+th abdelkarim No, you must judge each act in its own right, based on what is acceptable to society. Personally, I don't find either criminal act acceptable.
 
I wanted to defend myself but I think +Dave O'Connor  says it for me in his next to last post, although it may be hard to pick up in in my posts, I have indicated these are extremists and any extremists can be bad be they of religion or ideology. I also continued badgering a particular person posting here, because It bothered me that he lacked any compassion for this woman, only that he feared the men would face god's wrath because they had not properly tried her before killing her, though later he claimed to. That person said some pretty hurtful things and caused me to be less than civil and eventually troll-like. I regret letting myself digress in that way.  
 
+Samuel Thomas Show me in the Quran where you got this "72 virgins" concept... or was that FoxNews or ComedyCentral?  You judge Islaam by what non-Muslims tell you, yet you're upset if you don't get a say on your annual performance appraisal...  the sad irony.. 
 
+Tom Bellenger Tom, I was born and bred in the West, and I with my family and community continue to live here in peace with the non-Muslims. I agree and will always hold that the Islamic Law is far superior and far more relevant than any man-made Law and system of beliefs, but I, nor anyone I associate with have any intentions of "setting up Islamic Law" here, or anywhere I go, unless it's a Muslim country, where it's already established.. which is to say, if we migrate to Saudia for instance, we'll abide by and upload the Sharia. Islaam is not political, and most so-called learned men in the west have this incorrect ideaology.. we were not created and sent here to establish Islamic states, but to spread Worship the One God alone (Quran chapter 51, v56). And as it's a perfect system and way of life, there is legislation for normal folks, and there is legislation for parents and children, and neighbours, and merchants and employees, and well as legislation for rulers, kings, presidents, etc. The problem occurs when normal folks take the legislation that applies to rulers (like waging war, and punishment, which applies to rulers) and us it for themselves.. or where they declare themselves rulers and start establishing the law, in a land where there already is a ruler, which is not correct... we do not disobey the Muslim ruler in his lands.  Sigh.. the so much the west, and even our own Muslims need to learn about Islaam.   And of course, as I mentioned in an earlier post, dont get me wrong.. I am not against jihaad.. (actual) fighting in the Name of God, and in the defense of His Religion is well established in the Quran (as in the bible, and torah also..) but it appies only if we were soldiers, like ground troops, fighting in a clear war, for a Muslim king or president. 
 
+Bill Bartholomew Again with the lying Bill.. this is like the 4th now.. and now you're pandering for sympathy while lying on me? here's my post again, please read it beyond the mentioning of your name...:::  +Bill Bartholomew I"ve read your posts Bill, but it's like you're not reading mine. From the very beginning i've been saying that I feel truly sorry for her.. I have a mother, and a wife, and hopefully daughters (all sons so far), and I trely do, because as i said (looking at you +Dave O'Connor), I'm sure she was probably wrongfully accused and  wrongfully tried, and as such, the men there are in serious trouble with their Lord. It seems to me +Bill Bartholomew  that you can't separate in your mind that while I do agree that stoning is the best form of punishment for this crime (regardless of what you say, that is my belief), I certainly DO NOT agree with the Taliban, and like-minded individuals executing this on their own.. This is for a government to do, with a judge, and a court-room, and witnesses. It is a form of capital punishment just as any other.. just as your electrocution and lethal injections in Texas (which by the way, people end up dying far more liberally than stoning, if you check). 
 
Such a violent culture . It appears to me they eat stakes with bayonets !
 
this is more reason that America must not leave Afghan women with any protection!
 
+Abdullah Mohammed u serious ? Folks like u should b under surveillance ! Is Islam about violence or u r just looking 4 cheap disrespect ????
 
What a pity!! It seems Taliban is making a comeback in Af. And US wants India to play a much bigger role there, so that instead of American soldiers, Indian soldiers have a bloody bath.
 
this happens all the time in that region.  
 
+Abdullah Mohammed your first post, which seems to lack sympathy for the victim is as follows:
***************Begin Quote*************************
"Abdullah MohammedYesterday 8:32 PM (edited)
From my understanding, the punishment for adultery in Islaam is fair and legitimate, but (1) can only be carried out in an Islamic state by the ruler (and rightfully appointed judge), and not by a band of rebels, and (2) can ONLY be applied where there are FOUR witnesses to the crime. And the punishment is stoning, not shooting. So i hope for these people's sake that they met all those criteria, or they may face God with the charge of Murder. 

As for you +Vic Gundotra, while I understand your outrage (I myself am, by both the crime, and the way the punishment was carried out), I find myself feeling a lot less respect for you for this post.. and I make no apology for saying that."
************************End Quote**********************

In that post you express outrage for the crime and the way the punishment was carried out. Now, it is possible that I misread that and that you meant the crime of her being shot? If so then, you were correct in stating you where outraged by her killing and all this time I would have been wrong by what I assumed you meant.

  I  took it to read as: you are outraged by the crime of Adultery and the way the punishment was carried out. 

The post when you finally showed some sort of humanity towards the victim, that I did give you credit for in my last post was the one you just included in your last attack on me. 

It was obvious to myself and the majority of people posting that this was extremist thuggery, not true Islam. Having said that I still disagree that stoning someone to death under true Islamic law is wrong for adultery. I would likely approve of stoning a pedophile rapist that was caught in the act or a crime as severe as something along those lines. But bottom line is to express what I think about it is my right.

All the things you have said, has been your right.

This is the Internet, and for now it thrives because of the freedom it sprang from and exist in.
 
+Bill Bartholomew thank you for admitting your wrongful assumption and misreading of my OP. That's mighty big of you. And so I ask you from what you said... in your head, what makes stoning appropriate for a pedophile rapist?
 
And by the way, for anyone who's still listening, here are the "adultery laws" in some States (from WP); just by way of comparison with the Sharia (and AGAIN, I'm not advocating what's going on in this video.. read my earlier posts) >>  "...penalties vary from life sentence (Michigan)*[46] to a $10 fine (Maryland) to a Class B misdemeanor (New York)[47] to a *Class I felony (Wisconsin).[48] In the U.S. Military, adultery is a potential court-martial offense.[12]"   src=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery  
 
+Fidelis Onu Have you taken the time to read anything that I've mentioned, or have you too just jumped in to say something fashionably anti-Islamic?
 
What is anti-Islamic to voice an opinion about an atrocious act of cowardice. It seems like any Muslim can do these atrocious act and the world must not say anything. This is terrorism on women in the Muslim world.  This is social retrogression at its extreme. What have these extremist punks given the word. Hatred.
This has nothing to do with the spritualism of Islam. It has everything to do with the neo-fasism politices of the clergy of Islam. And that goes for extremist groups of other religions as well. There is nothing religious about extremiists idiologies.
 
+Abdullah Mohammed 
Here you go: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins
Let us know how the info here is incorrect.

Regarding your comment about you migrating and upholding sharia in a muslim country, how exactly would you treat the non-muslims there. Would you allow them the same rights to practice and propagate their religion as you have in non-muslim lands?

+Angelica Dzana sure. I would just again repeat what I said earlier that it is cowardice on the part of people who choose not to oppose oppression when religion/culture is the underlying motivation. 
 
It is my hope, that the violence against women in other countries, reminds this civilized country to shed light on our own issues of violence and abuse of women in the US.

We are a progressive society, and thankfully so, however we continue to experience Domestic Violence at a high rate, and the male abusers cannot attribute the violence to religion. It is more about control, because they can. It is an equal opportunity crime, it reaches every race, creed, social class, or culture. 

If  you feel the outrage at this violence, support the women's shelters throughout your community. Most family members, neighbors, friends, ignore or turn a blind eye in this country, and some condone the violence because women are seen as a man's property. In essence, this can be compared to the cheering men in this video.

We cannot change fundamental ideologies built on religion, that is a fact, in order for anyone to change them, they must acknowledge that there exists a wrong.

Over a thousand U.S. women are killed each year by a current or former intimate partner. Two million a year are injured. A sexual assault occurs every two minutes. Fifth in "The Memo" series on the status of U.S. women.

Domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to women between the ages of 15 and 44 in the United States, more than car accidents, muggings, and rapes combined.

Three to four million women in the United States are beaten in their homes each year by their husbands, ex-husbands, or male lovers. ("Women and Violence," Hearings before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee, August 29 and December 11, 1990, Senate Hearing 101-939, pt. 1, p. 12.)

One woman is beaten by her husband or partner every 15 seconds in the United States. (Uniform Crime Reports, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1991).

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/domviol/facts.htm
 
Gee, where's the outrage for all of the innocent women being killed in America? You know, the unborn ones?
 
Такова культура радикального ислама... И не только ислама... Всё это пришло в центральную азию и другие регионы с исламизацией с ближнего востока. Коренные жители которого - Иудеи, абсолютно так же вели себя как и тогдашние, ещё не знавшие Аллаха арабы...Наши борцы за веру, забыли о том, что Иисус спас Марию которую хотели забросать камнями по обвинению в блуде... Он сказал "Кто без греха, пусть первый бросит в меня камень..." 
Шариат в действии - это просто фантастика... Верьте в Аллаха молитесь ему неустанно и живите по канону ислама, если хотите такое для своих женщин.
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Guess I read 4 Muslims in the comments, all defending extreme forms of violence derived from some desert scribblings, none considering these may be man-made, or even willing to question 7th century practises in today's world. At the same time all say 'dont paint all muslims in same light'. I'm still in search of so called 'moderate muslim'.
 
+Samuel Thomas that's your source of Islamic knowledge? did you just google that to find a basis for your answer? And you don't wonder at your self-perpetuating bias..? There is no evidence in your reference for the number "72".. this is an evil attempt to ridicule the religion that has no basis. In actuality, Paradise is a place of Bliss and enjoyment for both men and women, and you will be there with your wife, and with the women of Paradise, all of whom will be perpetual virgins. And the women of the children of Adam (meaning your wife and the women of the earth) will be FAR more beautiful than then women of Paradise. Which man (or woman) can say that this is not something to look forward to as a reward for righteous actions? It really amazes me that this is what most bigoted folks use to try to ridicule Islaam, when in actuality, if they were given (legally) their wife in paradise alone, as a perpetual virgin, both they and their wife would value it, and strive for it. ... As for your question about my wanting to migrate.. it is every Muslim's desire to leave a land that is run by non-Muslim law, and non-Muslims (particularly oppressive lands, like what's going on in Burma right now), to migrate to Muslim land. I would only be someone dwelling there by the way son.. But as for the Shariah and it's implementation (from my understanding) you are allowed to come there, trade in peace, work in peace, live in peace, as long as you don't propagate your religion, and build churches, etc... and that is the right of the ruler of his constituations in any case. And again, that is in Muslim countries, and this is what occurs in Saudi Arabia to the best of my knowledge.
 
+Abhishek Tiwari you read wrong. No one is defending what occurred in the video as Islamic... are the Taliban the rightful rulers of Afghanistan? What right to they have to do summary executions? But at the same time, dont say that the Islamic law is incorrect simply because you believe so, and simply because the 'west' has lowered their standards (drastically) on morality and civility in the last few decades (not even centuries). And the Quran was revealed onto the Messenger (salallahu alayhi wa sallam) by Gabriel, just as the injeel (the Gospel of Jesus) was revealed to Jesus, the Torah to Moses, and the books of Abrahim and so on... There are self-evident proofs to that effect, which any thinking man cannot deny, but that is not the topic we are discussing, and many on this thread are not (seemingly) 'thinking' people.. (ie, questioning their own pre-suppositions and own biases).
 
+Abdullah Mohammed Yes, that is my source of knowledge and it is quite accurate . You are now denying a source just because you don't agree with it. I would like to know how many women would like to be in paradise with their husbands surrounded with perpetual virgins? I highly doubt women had any say in creating this paradise.
  
Also thanks for being honest about the fact that non-muslims will not be allowed to propagate their religion in a region where shariah(as your understanding of it) is implemented. It's extremely bad manners on the part of a group of folks to shout for rights to proselytize and propagate their way of life in other nations but deny that same right to others in their own nations. Don't you think so?

As I've said before - all religions/cultures have a time and place for which they are ideal. It's time to evolve and move on.

This is my last comment on the topic.
 
Please +Angelica Dzana  for goodness sake read the Koran. You would realise that Islam is not just a religion but a political ideology that preaches hatred and violence towards unbelievers. It also aims for world domination and to subjugate all others.
 
Koran Quote (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book ( jews and christians), until they pay the Jizya (tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
 
Straight from the book of Gordz (2012)

STOP KILLING PEOPLE, FUCKHEADS!
 
+Samuel Thomas dropping your arguement and backing out is very bad form. And of course no Muslim would agree to WikiIslam as a reference source on Islaam... its sole goal (from their about page) is: "..to become the one-stop source of information critical of Islam."... so you use a biased source as a reference on something that has its own sources? ..that's like quoting from a hippy website on the "dangers" of surgery and vaccination.. idiotic and dishonest. I'm utterly astonished by your bigotry. If you want to find out about Islaam, ask a Muslim. And as for your quip about Paradise.. then how would you want it? because if you end up there, exactly how you would want it, is how it would be.. and as for your wife, or a woman.. the same applies. And as for non-Muslims in a Muslim country: they are allowed to live, work, trade, travel in peace.. it is a Muslim country.. who are you as an outsider to dictate how they should run their country? And as for me living in my country.. answer me, who am i forcing my way of life on? Have I instructed you to start praying?, or to fast in Ramadhan, or to make Hajj? have I told you to grow your beard, or to cover your wife's head and to tell her to dress decently? No I havent. But what I am doing is defending Islaam against what you claim it to be, and trying to make you realize that you have not looked at the thing with a free and unbiased mind.
 
+Mike Mee +Angelica Dzana That is only in war (and clear warfare, not clandestine CIA-type warfare), and can only be instituted by the Ruler of the land.. an individual cannot take it upon himself to start killing non-Muslims. 
 
And further +Bill Bartholomew et al., have you forgotten what your own bible teaches: "A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death BY STONING; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death." (Leviticus 20:27 NAB), "*Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers*; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)" "Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, *cursed he who holds back his sword from blood*". (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB). "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, *both the man and the woman must be put to death*". (Leviticus 20:10 NLT). .. and on and on...
 
Yes, I understood that +Abdullah Mohammed in your initial comments. I was attempting to clarify that violence,  exists in all countries, regardless of the underlying reasons.
 
Who said it was my bible, I told you I don't even attend church. dude we have a right to exit a conversation on a post that has long been hijacked. I've long passed any useful input. please quit tagging me. Thank you.
 
+Angelica Dzana Have you read the Koran ? If not, how do you know for sure if Islam does or doesnt promote world domination and violence against unbelievers, women etc etc
 
+Angelica Dzana Notice the words BEAT THEM in the following koranic quote        Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and BEAT THEM ; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
 
+Abdullah Mohammed You can choose to ignore the source. I just find that your god offering a heavenly reward to his followers of staying with one's wife and perpetual virgins(as you have stated) extremely weird. If I were to put out a craigslist ad looking for job applicants and offered them perpetual pear breasted virgins as a bonus, I'm sure the cops would want to talk to me. Unfortunately we don't expect the same decency from our gods. How about offering enlightenment?

Regarding Non-Muslims living in Muslim lands, they are not outsiders. Many muslim countries have sizable non muslim citizens who dont have the same rights as muslims (which you condone) especially to celebrate and propagate their religion. This is discrimination - It works out well for you - however this is not how the civilized world makes laws and treats all its citizens.
 
 
Yes +Angelica Dzana  people from all different cultures commit violence and crime but what makes Islamic Violence different is that this violence is sanctioned by a political and religious ideology.
 
We need the so called Islamic "moderates" to take a stand and say that those who interpret the koran in a violent, supremist, or discriminatory manner are banned from the mosque.

No mainstream islamic group is challenging the ideology the fuels extremism all around the world. Instead they defend them making matters worse.

But instead of taking a stand we only get denials that Islam is perfect and the extremists continue without having their ideology challenged.
 
+Erin Peterson not everyone is willing to accept our "liberal" ways to life as we do here in the west. Woman are not viewed with respect in the Muslim world. Woman and children are treated as second class citizen compared to the men of Muslim society.
 
Please don't miss understand the fact that these kind of people are no pure Muslims... Beating women is strictly prohibited in Islam. The Prophet said, "Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not hurt (trouble) his neighbor. And I advise you to take care of the women, for they are created from a rib and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part; if you try to straighten it, it will break, and if you leave it, it will remain crooked, so I urge you to take care of the women." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 114)

Narrated Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him),

Allah’s Messenger kissed Al-Hasan ibn `Ali while Al-Aqra` ibn Habis At-Tamim was sitting with him . Al-Aqra` said, “I have ten children and have never kissed one of them.” The Prophet cast a look at him and said, “Whoever is not merciful to others will not be treated mercifully.” (Al-Bukhari)

If you really want to understand Islam, don't look at people, look at the scripture.
 
Angelica Dzana  I'm afraid that, despite your erudition, you fail to understand that there is no reason not to mock and deride beliefs that you find stupid, violent or disgusting. It is especially important to mock and deride dangerous beliefs in the hope that those who hold such beliefs may reconsider or self-educate.

Beliefs do not hold any special status, they are based on ideas that are usually unsupported by rational reason or evidence. As such, beliefs deserve and receive much less protection and evidence based, rational and reasonable truths.

You are free to mock my beliefs as much as you like. I don't care that you disagree with me. And I will support your right to ridicule my beliefs if you wish. If my beliefs are wrong, I'll endeavour to change them, not change you.
 
+Mike Mee +Angelica Dzana Mike, again you're trying to mislead by misinterpreting a text when you don't even know the arabic, or the translation, or the explanation.. this 'beating' is not like Ralph threatens to beat his wife in the classic honeymooners (remember?.. "BANG, ZOOM! Straight to the moon!"??)... this is a light, soft, almost symbolic lash, for effect, and certainly not injury. Amazing how you read something, and dont ask "what does this mean?" (this goes to Muslims also that read without asking, and the Quran clearly states, if you don't know, ask those who do). And by way of comparison, let us not forget the bible's treatment of women, which in actuality pales in comparison to your interpretation of the above verse: "When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12) How do you explain this, that you cut off your wife's hand if she enters into a fight with two males? ..is that just and equal punishment?.. wow. Or what about this treatment of women?..."Samaria shall bear her guilt; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword; their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. (Bible, Hosea 13:16)" ... kill them by the sword?... rip open their wombs, and dash the unborn to pieces??  .. is this your bible??   ...wow... just,,, wow. +Bill Bartholomew 
 
+Samuel Thomas you may find it a bit weird because that is all you're focusing (fixating?) on. The pleasures of the paradise goes beyond this, and are eternal.. there are emotional pleasures and delights for the eyes and the heart ('Gardens beneath which rivers flow', 'rivers of milk and honey', and much that we cannot imagine), and societal pleasures of being with your family and the pious and the Prophets and the Truthful, and above all of this is knowledge that God is pleased with you, and that he saved you from an eternal fire of torment and regret. And as for the non-Muslims living in Muslim countries under the Sharia... it is a Muslim country, and these are the laws, and non-Muslims are allowed to practice, and work, and live in peace. If they feel the need to start Jehovah-Witnessing everyone on saturdays (for instance), then this is not permitted, and if they dislike it, they can leave, peacefully. That is the law. 
 
+Bill Bartholomew can someone stop you from exiting an online conversation? ...but what you're doing is trying to save face, by being sarcastic, facetious, and now, dropping cynical (trollish) comments and leaving, without answering questions that challenge your flawed interpretation. That's what's really disgusting... that people like yourself  believe that you can throw words out there, and when you are challenged intellectually, your resort to verbal violence. ... sad.
 
And for anyone who is still listening.. what you should be getting angry for, because it's something you can actually impact on, is what's going on in your own society and economy... for instance see Senator Bernie Sander's vid, that got buried... The American People Are Angry  .. see here: https://plus.google.com/u/1/102227800261183349957/posts

I'm not at all trying to bury this issue either.. it is a great opportunity to help people understand Islam, and to help them understand that what they see on CNN/Fox/BBC/etc is put there purposefully for you to have a certain impression of Muslims... You should always be wary when someone (especially high profile people, like Vic here), tries to push this stuff on you, and you end up soo concerned and emotionally caught up with what's going on there, that you forget what's going  on in your own backyard.. stuff that you can actually change and make impact on.
 
+Abdullah Mohammed Sure there might be violence in the old testament bible, but NO ONE cites this scripture and kills people for it. Unlike thousands of muslims all around the world who cite the koran and kill because of it.
 
Incase the above link does not work here is a small part of the glory list. It mainly includes the CIVILIANS killed with the soldiers killed omitted.

Hamas operations -The Glory Record

[...] 3. Boureen Operation: The militant Hamdan Hussein Al:najar, a member of Hamas, killed the Israeli settler Ya'coub Berey using a big rock as his weapon. The militant was shot down as a martyr after he had ambushed an Israeli patrol using the dead settler's weapon.

[...] 6. Bus No. 405 Operation: Militant Ahmed Hussein Shukry, a member of Hamas, was able to lead an Israeli soldier to a secluded place in Tel Aviv where the militant hit the soldier with a chisel and killed him on 8 September 1989. The following day, the militant got on bus No. 405 and stabbed the driver to take over the bus; however, the passengers were able to stop the militant.

[...] 12. Keryat Youval Operation: The militant Mohammed Mustafa Abu Jalala stabbed four Israelis and injured another at a bus station in Keryat Youval in Jerusalem before he was arrested by the Israeli forces.

13. Askalan Road Operation: While driving a taxi, the militant Jameel Ismail Al:baz, a member of Hamas, ran over a group of Israelis waiting on this road on 19 July 1991. He was able to kill corporal Nadaf Der'ey and injure another soldier. Then the militant was able to escape but he was later arrested by the Israeli forces.

[...] 15. Shailou Operation: A military group belonging to Al Qassam Brigades attacked an Israeli bus carrying some settlers on their way to Tel Aviv to participate in demonstrations organized by the extremist party Likud against the peace process. The bus was completely destroyed; two Israelis were killed and five more were injured.

[...] 17. Eid Al-maskhara Operation: The militant Ra'ed Al:reefy attacked an Israeli crowd in Jaffa on 17 March 1992. He was able to kill 2 and injure 21 Israelis who gathered to celebrate Eid Al:maskhara, also known as Al:boureem.

18. Beit Lahya Operation: On the third anniversary of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin's arrest, a group belonging to Al Qassam Brigades attacked an Israeli settler at Beit Lahya and shot him down then withdrew safely.

[...] 21. Carlo Factory Operation: Four militants belonging to Al Qassam Brigades broke into a citrus packing factory (Carlo) near Nahal Oaz at 2:30 p.m. on 25 June 1992. Three militants stabbed two Israelis while the other was guarding. The Hamas members wrote some slogans and considered this operation as a gift for Yitzhak Rabin on the occasion of winning the Israeli elections.
 
+Mike Mee "Sure there might be violence.. but no one cites this scripture and kills for it".. so i guess the Crusades never happened. And if you want to say well that's hundreds of years ago, then consider the present-day 'crusades'.. literally called that by bible-thumping, Armageddon-wishing born-agains.. raising billions of dollars to support Israel, to support the murder of Palestinian civilians, to bring on the 3rd world war, so that they can 'attain paradise'... isnt that what you are accusing these same Muslims of, in principle? The very same thing, only in reverse??.. wow,, you people... wow. You should have a close look at WikiLeaks' Collateral Murder vid, and reflect on what you consider violent and aggression in the name of Religion: http://collateralmurder.com/
 
Like a said before, all people commit violence but they do it AGAINST their religion. But ONLY Muslims commit violence with the legal and moral support of the Koran, their Imams and their religion in general.
 
I encourage everyone to checkout the MEMRI TV and Pal Watch TV Youtube channels. They expose the hate and bigotry coming out of the Islamic world.
 
How can thousands of people WORLD WIDE  misunderstand such a perfect and peaceful religion. Apparently its just a "tiny" minority.  The LONG list of terrorist groups below says otherwise. This list doesnt even include Boko Haram in Nigeria.

U.S. State Department list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations


Abu Sayyaf, Philippines

Hezbollah, Lebanon

Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Egypt Islamic Movement of Central Asia, Central Asia

Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Gaza Strip and West Bank

Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, Uzbekistan

Al-Shabaab, Somalia

Jaish-e-Mohammed, Pakistan and Kashmir

Al-Qaeda, worldwide

Jamaat Ansar al-Sunna, Iraq

Ansar al-Islam, Iraq

Jemaah Islamiyah, Indonesia

Armed Islamic Group (GIA), Algeria

Lashkar-e-Taiba, Pakistan and Kashmir

Caucasus Emirate (IK), Russia

Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, Pakistan

East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM), China

Moro Islamic Liberation Front, Philippines

Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Egypt

Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group, Morocco and Europe

Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front (IBDA-C), Turkey

Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Gaza Strip and West Bank

Hamas, Gaza Strip and West Bank

Tawhid and Jihad, Iraq

Harkat-ul-Mujahideen al-Alami, Pakistan 
 
I,m sorry folks. But there is no point banging your head with the wall, unless you are enjoying it ;-)

Seriously... this paradise, women of paradise who will be perpetual virgins... this is so much insult to intelligence. Obviously +Abdullah Mohammed is too chicken to question his own belief. This fear has been programmed in him systematically... since his childhood. I don't care what quran says. I'd judge a religion by the value system of its followers. And the fact is, there are very few muslim majority countries that follow democracy. Of course he will blame west for their problems or reject the democracy as un-islamic and may even produce a verse from the book.
 
By the way Christians no more burn witches or go out for crusade. They all moved on with the time.

I don't think the root of the problem lies with Islam or quran, those are just thoughts. The problem lies with muslims for following those thoughts blindly and not changing with the time. Most of the religious books are full of absurd 'facts' and violence. But since their followers evolved in their beliefs and practices, nobody question their faith and books. Muslims on other hand see everything through a thousand year old ideology. That may or may not be relevant then... doesn't matter now, but is surely out of time today.
 
Update to this story - The Taliban is denying responsibilty for the killing of this woman, and are investigating. They claim it was the local elders that administered the sharia law.

Isnt it comforting to know that the taliban are not doing all the killing. We can all rest easy now. (sarc off)
 
+Mike Mee that's a disingenuous statement,, read my post again.. Bible-thumpers the world over USE the "prophecies" in the bible to spur on the War with Israel, and foolish Christians support their "Crusades" all over the States, Canada, Britain, etc.. Can you imagine if Muslims set up gatherings called "Jihaads" in the States and in the West, and spoke about the dooms day and supporting palestine? they'd all be locked up.. one guy on this thread even said the I should be monitored.. why? because I say don't blame Islaam? and it is the foolish and unlearned and misguided Muslims that blow themselves up and commit these atrocities, and then Islaam gets the blame? .. and dont even get me started on False Flag ops... sigh. People nowadays. And you claim enlightenment and civility?
 
And what's more, I see NO ONE on this thread so far expressing "disgust" at what happened in the CollateralMural.com video, where a kids were brutally MURDERED by hyped up US soldiers... Collateral Murder - Wikileaks - Iraq ...I challenge +Vic Gundotra to post that video, and say the same thing "I'm Disgusted", and everyone with similar sentiments on this thread to do the same.. But they won't.. And what happened there, from a humanity point of view was arguably worse... ask yourself why they won't... sigh..
 
+VIJAY B VERMA Of course Vijay, because you know me from childhood.. another worthless presupposition and profiling. Another one fixating on the Women of Paradise, and cant look past the real issue here, which is the extreme and (amazingly) un-challenged bias that most folks enter a discussion with,,, which you yourself just lucidly demonstrated. 
 
+VIJAY B VERMA Christians no longer "go out on Crusades" ? then what do you call the raising billions of dollars by Christians, in their huge gatherings (actually called 'crusades')?  All this money goes to fund and fuel the Israel-Palestinian war.. they're trying to bring about Aramageddon.. isnt that war-mongering? 
 
+VIJAY B VERMA And as for 'outdated' religious texts.. if you claim your religion is 'outdated' then you are ascribing to the Creator ignorance, because you would be effectively saying that He revealed a text that He didnt know would become irrelevant. And I agree, the Bible and the Torah, etc are no longer relevant, because they were revealed  to a people for their time, to their Messengers (Jesus and Moses respectively)... At least the original text and not the adulterated versions you have today. The Quran and Islaam on the other hand was the LAST revelation to mankind, from the same Creator.. and they are intact.. exactly as they were revealed to the Messenger (upon whom be Peace).. right up to this day,, and is still relevant to the challenges we are facing today.. From Finance and Economy (Islamic Banks were not affected by the 2008, derivative-led, financial meltdown.. Derivatives are haram), to Islamic Medicine (Muslims were the fathers of medicine as we know it), to Societal fixes (There is very little/no crime in Saudi Arabia.. ask yourself why), to individual and family enlightenment.. you and people like you are just upset, or blinded to this because YOU won't take your own advice and look at it objectively, because YOU are too chicken to do so....   think about it Vijay.
 
+Abdullah Mohammed No disrespect... but keep your 'merciful' creator and his 'justice' to yourself. I don't feel compelled to be thankful to him. I respect the nature, abide laws of the land like billion others.. and not laws of any religion.

Actually your creator, messenger, text matters ONLY if you have empathy and respect towards another human being. I'm sorry but your attitude justifying shooting/stoning of a human, for whatever reason and by whoever authority, shows that you lake that empathy. A good Muslim may be.. as per your standards, but not at par with a good human. Which matters the most.

And as far as pure, adulterated and 'outdated' text goes.. it doesn't matter. One don't need any religious book to tell him/her what is right and what is wrong. That is common sense. Thanks to evolution for developing some intelligence in me (for sake of understanding, you can assume evolution to be a deity who can do 'things'), I can analyse and take decisions my self or take help from other human beings. I can make mistakes and learn from them.
AND
I can socialize on equal terms. There are no "dhimmis" in my value system.

Ever heard this quote...? 

"Don't do unto other what you don't want others do unto you."

This is called "The Golden Rule". And many people in the world live by this rule. Including many Muslims. Of course you don't represent them.

I know you'll reject this Golden Rule since this is from Bible... the adulterated text as per you.

This "Golden Rule" is my religion. Period.
 
Ok. I probably shouldn't do this but here goes. Pardon the length. And the disjointed-ness.

Let me start by saying that my personal religious beliefs are unimportant here. It isn't my job or intent to try to convince anyone of anything, I would just like to point out a few flaws in logic that I feel are important.

Every religion has some history of violence. The reality is that religion is simply a primitive means of controlling the population. Religious beliefs evolved based upon the regions that they evolved in and the needs of the rulers.

The concept that one religion/prophet is the final say is ludicrous. Nobody expected Jesus until he arrived - it wasn't like there was something on the calendar saying "Jesus coming in 300 years!". Same is true for Mohammed. It seems arrogant to assume that the next prophet isn't on his/her way (assuming you believe in those religions). Who knows - perhaps they have already been born. It is interesting, however, to note, that it is the Judeo-Christian religions that seem to hold the greatest fear of open thought and questioning with regards to this. Maybe Buddha had it right when he figured it is all inside of you. I have watched videos on the Dalai Lama and he seems like he has it fairly together, although I also have issues with a religion that chooses their leader at the age of six.

To move a bit outside of this, the point was made that the concept of "beating" the wife was not to be taken literally but was to be taken as a figurative concept. Yet in the subsequent posts, it was pointed out that the Bible advises seemingly harsh punishments. Is it not possible that these are also intended not to taken literally? In fact is it possible that all the punishments are to be taken in a figurative sense? who decides which is which? Or is it a convenience thing?

There was a point made that all religions and even civil statutes proscribe fairly harsh punishments for some crimes, with adultery used as the running example. I would counter with the clarification that in general, modern application has not been consistent with these suggestions, unlike the stagnant application of Islamic code.

It was pointed out that foreigners are free to do anything in a Muslim country except (for all intents and purposes) express their religious beliefs. I would suggest that the Muslim world would be in an uproar if Europe and North America enacted legislation that prevented Muslims from practicing freely.

In general, most religions in their original forms have become anachronisms. It is the choice of the practitioner as to whether they choose to interpret the texts literally or allegorically, allowing for modernization while maintaining morality. Keep in mind that morality does not require religion, and that religion does not equal morality.

As an aside to this, the concept of creation was never answered. One side questioned who else could have created everything but God, the other asked who/what created God. The reality is that the answer depends on your belief. If you believe in religion, then nothing will sway you from the first perspective however if you are not a creationist (not sure how to word this), then the Big Bang is a valid scientific explanation. Neither answers what happened before but neither attempts to, and neither side will convince the other.

I have no problem with any religion or belief system. What I do have a problem with is the expectation that rules will be applied inequitably, whether that inequity be on the basis of race, gender, religious belief, sexual orientation, number of belly rings, or whatever other reason you can come up with.

Please don't bother responding to this or tagging me - I have wasted too much time and mind space on it already. If you agree, give it a +1. Otherwise, just ignore it. I may or may not check back later as time permits. Thanks for respecting my request. 
 
John,
Sanjeev was completely in agreement with your point. He just expressed it in a different way.

He also completely condemns what happened, as well as any other violence perpetrated by anyone regardless of whether the victim is a woman, or if they have some other kind of differrenciating factor (sexual orientation, race, religion, weight, etc...), and I completely agree with him.

Violence is NOT the way!
Trying to understand other people's point of view by asking questions, instead of jumping to conclusions based on false perceptions is what will ultimately reduce the occurence of such horrible and condamnable events.

Unfortunately, there will always be people ruled by greed and thirst for power, who will try to crush others and who will use any excuse to do so...

Cheers to you for reacting to a woman's mistreatment!
N
 
Thank you Nathalie.

To clarify, as I wasn't clear, I think that the events initially posted were abhorrent. They were no different than the honor killings recently seen in Southern Ontario by a Muslim family, so-called honor killings that have occurred in British Colombia by Punjabi families, and similar episodes by Japanese and Chinese families. There are countless other examples from other regions of the world as well. My outrage is not focused at ethnic groups, it is focused at outdated or ignorant beliefs.

Every religion seeks the ultimate truth. I fail to see how the death of innocents advances this pursuit.

I want no part of any religion that believes that killings or murders are necessary to get to "salvation". (I'm not sure that leaves a lot, but that's an issue for another day...)
 
+Marcel Bennett Islam respect women a lot they should be treated like queens, just because one person living in a Islamic country dose something like this dosent mean that these are the teachings if Islam . It will be the same if I said that Christians are told to abuse young children just because some Americans do it. Lets not mix up religion with culture.
 
+Umair Akhtar  yeah islam love so much women thatt veil completely the,,doesnt let them testify, they inherit less than a man, and honor killing that not only are in the muslim world but they are very much widespread there and not its not culture cuz turkish culture its no the same as arab and you can see honor killings in both.
 
Islam loves woman ???
Umair the joke cracked by you is funny all the people who read this will laugh including me.
 
I have a dear friend who converted from Western Culture to Islam, because of the way Western men treated her so very badly. The Islam true old fashioned values are beautiful. I will not convert myself but I have to say my friend has more morals than any Western women I know. Please share this video on how men treated women in the Western Culture for trying to vote. Britain and the USA are just as bad because they are using the media to destroy family life by advertising women and children as objects.  http://youtu.be/SeOHPfsCtFo  
 
Well one can have morals even without being a muslim. It not that the Christian or Jewish values or dum. The only problem is as human we take them for granted. 
I dont know what lead your friend to become a muslim but I hope this she doesnt repent for it.
GOD bless her.
 
Mr mohamed beyrem makhlouf, learn about islam ????
Ok lets hear about you about islam,PLEASE TEACH US TO WE CAN ASK YOU QUESTIONS AND KNOW ISLAM 
PLEASE DO THIS SO I CAN CONFIRM THE LINES IN QURAN DONT SUPPORT EVIL ACTS ..
SINCE YOU HAVE CLAIMED TO KNOW ISLAM WE WILL WANT TO LEARN ABOUT IT.
CHOOSE A TOPIC YOU CAN TEACH US ON...
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