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Capital Gains Cuts: Why the Ryan Tax Plan Goes in the Exact Wrong Direction

As The Atlantic points out, Mitt Romney would pay 0.82 percent in taxes under the Ryan Plan.  (Mitt himself pointed that out in the primaries when it was Newt Gingrich trumpeting the plan.)  And of course, the plan is a non-starter when it comes to funding Federal obligations.  Unless Romney plans to cut military spending in half, and cut social security to boot, there's nothing left to fund anything else.

But the real issue, to me, is the source of the tax cuts: capital gains. We have an economy whose prime dysfunction comes from the fact that financial markets have become a casino.  The fact that the current tax plan favors capital gains over wages (with a 35% marginal tax on wages, but only 15% on capital gains) helps boost the financial economy rather than the real economy.

I haven't done the math on how much additional revenue would be gained, but from the point of view of equity and incentives, I'd leave capital gains rates as they are but greatly extend the time horizon for "long term" capital gains.  (Short term capital gains from financial instruments held under a year are taxed the same as wages (leaving out social security and other taxes added to employment income), but gains for property held longer than a year are considered long term, and taxed at the 15% rate.)

I'd set the threshold for long term capital gains at five years (at least).  There's a big difference between owning a home, or a business, for many many years, and then having a one-time gain that represents a lifetime of investment, and  holding a stock for a year, and juggling a stock portfolio to hold that stock just long enough to get favorable tax treatment when you sell it.  The idea that a year is "long term" is laughable to anyone who really thinks long term.

I'd also tighten down all the loopholes that allow people to avoid paying even capital gains by borrowing against the value of a security.   One rich friend remarked that he's never paid taxes.  He bought a building in Manhattan when he was in college; its value has increased by tens of millions of dollars (perhaps more), which he's taken out as loans against the value of the building.  The same is done with equity in companies, and a whole class of specialized financial instruments have been created to hedge against the downside risk.  I'd bet that many titans of industry have bought their yachts with tax-free dollars taken out in just this way.

The point is that if we want to rethink the tax system, we need to get beyond simplistic models that cut, cut, cut, and figure out all the places where taxes highlight our wrong-headed social strategies, and fix those problems.  I'd start by rethinking the incentives that reward the behavior than nearly broke the world economy, rather than doubling down on them, encouraging even more financial sociopathy.

The Ryan Plan rewards everything that is wrong with our economy, and the fact that Mitt Romney picked Paul Ryan as a running mate indicates as surely as anything does that Mitt is the wrong guy to tackle today's problems.
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Why are we even putting up with a Federal government whose elected officials have the temerity to not only come up with such arrant bullshit, but dare foist it upon us as something resembling sound public policy? Under the post-Goldwater Republican Party, the Federal government does nothing but protect those who are already rich, and wage war in the name of multinational corporations.

What has Uncle Sam done for the average American lately?
Can I point out that Ryan will be Vice President? Aside from Chaney, the VP job doesn't have a lot of influence on policy.
So, thats why he picked him... ;)
+Charles Barouch, the VP has the tie-breaking vote in the Senate, and is next-in-line for the Presidency should the sitting President be incapacitated. Do you really want Paul Ryan to be a heartbeat away from the Oval Office if Mittens falls off his horse?
What's Obama's tax plan? Tax those who create the most jobs and who already contribute the most in taxes and transfer the wealth over to those who pay no tax all? Socialism doesn't work. Never has. Never will. 
You won't get any argument from me on that point, +Jeffrey Hamby, but at this point I'm tempted to vote for a Cthulhu/Dagon ticket. Why screw around with the lesser evil?
+Charles Barouch You really don't think that picking Ryan for VP will have any impact on the policies pursued by Romney? Keep in mind that Romney has no actual policies, just vague claims (e.g. "closing unnamed loopholes will balance the budget"), while Ryan has put concrete proposals on the table. My guess is that Ryan's proposals will fill in the complete lack of substance in Romney's campaign thus far. Given that the large majority of Americans oppose Ryan's policies (when they know about them, most don't yet) that's bad for Romney, because Obama will certainly be educating people about Ryan's positions, driving Romney down. And if Romney doesn't support Ryan's proposals, but spends the next few months running away from Ryan, that'll drag him even further under. Romney's managed to put himself in a lose-lose position.
+Peter Priskas What about the wealthy don't really pay taxes do you  not understand? Or do you have a boilerplate as your sole opinion?
+Kevin Diamond except it's been proven time and again by the IRS and Treasure that, not only do the wealthy pay taxes, they pay the bulk of them.
Have you ever thought of running for office? Or helping raise the profiles of candidates who share these views?

Each one of these proposals is rational, fair-minded, and seems as if it would be palatable to a broad cross section of the electorate. With your background in the most dynamic segment of the market for the past three decades and history of building a sizable business you'd have great credibility and a narrative to share.
+Jeffrey Hamby, they damn well should, given that the wars the US government starts in the Third World are mainly for the benefit of the rich and their corporations.
I'm not a mitt Romney fan, but your source is the Atlantic? Known for being nothing but propaganda. I'm calling BS on this one
+Charles Barouch I don't see why Ryan couldn't be holding the puppet strings just like Cheney did. Who else will Romney look to for fiscal advice?
There is already nothing left to fund anything else. Effing geniuses.
As opposed to the Obama/Democrat plan which is do nothing and blame Bush.
which is too propose ideas over and over to the spiteful opposition chanting "no, no, no".
+Matthew Graybosch looks like you didn't take the famous Kennedy quote to heart..... You know,
The one where you're not supposed to ask what your country can do for you. 
It seems as if the goal of the Republicans is to bring back feudalism.
+Peter Priskas
You know that higher taxes based on income doesn't really count as the basis of socialism, right?
+Ryan Alman There is actually a lot of substance to the "blame." It functions as an easy reference point for what went wrong with the economy in the first place. It is also a starting point for policy prescriptions. Such as raise taxes on capital gains and close loopholes to prevent financial system collapse and decrease the budget.

Y'all talk about Paul Ryan's propose as if its a real plan, but you gotta be joking... Anyone can propose to cut virtually everything and act thought provoking (re: Ron Paul). That'll never happen. Its rife with the abject idealism the Right always levies to the Left. The real issue is how to prevent the collapse of our society while balancing all of our fiscal maladies.
Very well said +John Cooper and +Ryan Alman
Stop playing with propaganda and lets deal with facts. The government is spending what they do not have under this administration at a phenomenal rate. We need fiscal responsibility in government!
+Kevin Diamond Ron Paul is quite thought provoking, and changed quite a bit of conversations to say the least.
Peter shut the FUCK up let's see under bush I been laid off had my school vouchers cut and let's see had my rent increase what 8% but my current employer which is a billion dollar company making money hand over fist wants more tax cuts but about to layoff 150 my city but hire .200 and 8.50 a hour wake up tax cuts for the rich don't improve the economy they take there money and run
+Skeaux Sha
What if someone doesn't have something you need in the trade system? What if they don't want what you have to trade?

Also please remember the unaffordable war in Iraq which gave al queda a new base to operate want real truth watch young Turks they give real news
+Jim Wilbourne if they don't have what you need in the trade system, they don't have what you need in the fiat currency for trade system.

if they don't want what you have to trade is a different story.  Trade for something they do want, or change what you're creating.  That's a PITA, but that's how barter works.
Why should one person pay more for the same government as the next? Would you like everything you buy to be priced depending on your  income rather than fair value? Personally I'd be willing to pay more for less government. 
Yes Jeff hmm and the republican house and congress yeah let also remembered they believe giving tax cuts to while cutting education yeah while other countries give more And you wonder why America dumb , if the tea kkk party have there way the bible proverb teach a man to fish would go give him the tail and head and make him get your worms
It's true that the wealthy pay the bulk of income taxes (we'll ignore the other taxes that are paid by everyone). I agree with +Tim O'Reilly 's assessment here, but one point that is important to realize that he doesn't explicitly mention is that Ryan's plan in the longterm is only going to make this worse. Look at why the wealthy pay such a large share, and it is in part because the real incomes for the middle and lower classes have been stagnant or falling while the wealthy have gotten even more wealthy. This widening disparity inevitably is going to force the top people into paying more from a percentage perspective. Lowering capital gains taxes in the short term might force the percentage to be more equal (with either less revenues overall, or an increased burden on those lower classes), but long term it will simply speed up the growing disparity, where the wealthy have all of the money that we as a society need to survive.
Punishing investment is no way to create jobs. Ryan and Romney are smart guys and just as caring and compassionate as Obama. Their ideas should be taken seriously, and if the President ever articulates his actual plans that should be taken seriously as well...
+Jim Wilbourne, I distinguish between my country and my country's government. JFK didn't say, "Ask not what the government can do for you, but what you can do for the government." Don't twist his rhetoric to legitimatize authoritarianism.
Close, they want a Polish style Republic; the kind that has an aristocratic legislature and allows local tyranny.
+Kelly Looney, these people had plenty of opportunity to "create jobs" under the second Bush administration from 2001-2009. Did they? No. They made Wall Street their own personal casino and gambled on mortgage-backed securities until the whole thing crashed in 2008. Screw the investors, if they're going to screw the rest of us just to get richer than they already are.
+Jeffrey Hamby 
1) Talk about "fair share" is intrinsically a proportionate discussion because we are discussing the amount of responsibility an individual has in relation to their individual standing. If you wish to keep discussing it as a sum total than there is nothing more to discuss. To the proportion of their earnings, wealthier Americans simply do not pay as much taxes as other Americans. This matters because each individual dollars is less important to their existence and livelihood. 

2) The 2008-2009 number is mostly irrelevant for this discussion because it is by definition an outlier, not the norm. That year saw less income for the bottom 2/3rds of the country.

3) Anyone can notice the largest spenders in the Fed and then cut them. You don't believe me? The libertarians have done it for decades. What thought was uniquely provoked by Ryan's budget that hadn't already been considered by Ron Paul or others?
Gayle your must be a G.e.d student remember too much regulation killed the bank industry oops its was reversed then republican let the wolf guard the hen house makes perfect sense the government checks and balance its put so everyone has someone to answer to and be held accountable and two the government owes a unadulterated responsiblity to the citizens its governs for all my Christians the bible teachs do one to.others as you to you be a Samarian
3) Ron Paul has been talking about those cuts since long before Ryan was in any office.

The fact is higher earners have always paid the bulk of taxes.  First when there was no income tax, and once there was one (flat first, then progressive).  There hasn't been a year when that wasn't true.
+Jeffrey Hamby
I'm not sure I follow. Can you go on?

It sounds as if in order to successfully trade in your system you would either have to be in proximity with people who always have what each individual wants or you'd have to produce multiple types of goods or you'd have to trade several times before you actually get what you want.
This works great until apple won't accept rice for an iPhone. 
+Jeffrey Hamby  I forgot to add that one thing not described by the IRS is payroll taxes as well as state and local taxes which, again, disproportionately affect the middle and lower classes.
+Jim Wilbourne I'm not the one who proposed barter.  I was just offering some insight.

"Your system" is misguided.
Actually, despite the seemingly direct benefit of Obama's policies to what he calls the middle class, he is setting up an unsustainable economic system which is detrimental to all Americans in the long run. He is trying to give a lot of money to a lot of people for nothing. It'll either have to be printed, borrowed, or from taxes on people that do work. All three ways of obtaining these funds will eventually crush the U.S. economy.

Everyone needs to stop being greedy, bite the bullet, and do what is best for our nation. We all need to make some sacrifices. Obama can only force the most productive segments of our population to do all the sacrificing for so long until they either give up and start asking for handouts too or move away.
+Matthew Graybosch that's great. But it can be easily argued that you did miss his meaning even if he didn't say government. Perhaps you're misinterpreting?
What's the difference between your country and your country's government in terms of this quote?
Steve the money we borrowed.from.china happened so we can pay for Iraq , I like these so called tea party tell the politicians to work a minimum wage pay for rent .no stipend for there expenses.see how long things Change also give them no health let them pay for it like we do
im confused with the message from any of the idiots that call themselves politicans
The problem with the American economy is "American capitalism" capitalism is all about screwing everyone else and making as much money as possible, and to get rid of government. I always find it funny that most Americans think that the government is bad and evil and out to control your life. If companies had there way you wouldn't get paid very well or maybe at all for your work. And the thing about companies is that you dont get to pick who is running the show. Sounds alot like communism to me.
not even a full percent? mother fuckers...
One problem with lengthening the timeframe for "long-term" gains is that it tends to discourage investors - like the Manhattan building owner - from buying and selling. Over the past decades, a better investment might have come along which your friend passed up because he didn't want to realize the gains and thus pay taxes. This makes us all poorer.  It's really not fair to require long-term investors to wait five years to rebalance their portfolios, either.  Current law lets you do that annually...

Also, it's very unlikely your friend pays no taxes -  he just has deferred the capital gains taxes.  When he bought the building he enjoyed accelerated depreciation which is now surely exhausted, so he's paying ordinary income tax on all of that highly profitable building's income.
+Jeffrey Hamby
I believe you're taking my words "your system" to heart. It's not misguided. "your system" was used in place of "the system you are describing" not as a phrase to imply your allegiance. 
So why do i have to pay taxes on profits I make on money i was already taxed on once, if I lose money, no one gives me a refund on my risky loss..
+Jeffrey Hamby And its been proven they pay more taxes because they usurp all the income from others who would otherwise pay their share. As a result they collectively pay less in taxes than we would while at the same time consuming the income of everyone else. They also benefit greatest from taxes spent.

Corporate profits are at historic highs in human history. Wages and upward mobility are at all time lows. The wealthy are paying less percentage wise and relative to disposable income, they pay almost nothing.

So sorry, I'll shed no tears for those who have been waging class warfare against the middle and lower classes for the last three decades. A war, in fact, which they are winning. The middle class is dying and the lower class its actually worse off then they were in three decades. Whereby the upper class has effectively stolen their (lower and middle class) income, and therefore their share of the tax burden, yet are not paying it. In fact, rather than pay their share in taxes, they complain they are paying less percentage wise than the rest of us.

No ifs, ands, or buts, the rich are absolutely not paying their fair share of taxes.

+Jim Wilbourne, why don't you find a competent necromancer and ask the man himself what he meant? I wouldn't count on that happening, so let's assume for the moment that you're right, and JFK meant that we shouldn't question the government. If that's the case, then I say that Lee Harvey Oswald gave Kennedy his rightful due. Telling people not to question the government or what it does for them is not only un-American, but anti-American.
+Jim Wilbourne either way, it's not a system I defend for anything but the local/community level.  I just tried to explain it a bit.
Young Turks do and wish Jesse Ventura would have his own cable news show he makes politicans eat a lot of crow when he asks questions they don't want to answer
+Tyler Porter not disagreeing with you or anything.
But if what Obama is doing is suppose to be benefiting the middle class, are they really getting a hand out?
How much money does Obama's middle class make? The middle class are the workers, taxpayers, and those who "need" the benefits obama seems to be working towards correct? The middle class aren't really the class of people not inputing to the output. It would be the unemployed or those not paying taxes for whatever reason
+Ryan Tempura I can't remember the quote so I'll paraphrase, but someone said the following that really hit home...

How does the number of millionaires in the US prevent me or my children from doing something that increases our own earnings?
What would happen w/o taxes:
Welcome to the Private Police Force - Stephen Fry & Hugh Laurie - BBC comedy

Taxes have, atleast in the nordic counteris, the role of flattening the difference in income to a degree... The more you earn the more you pay.

We in Sweden are proud of our taxation system, to a degree... We pay for healthcare indirectly, so when we need healthcare we pay a low fee... No economic schock.

Oh well... Not every thing is perfect...
How about we tax everyone the same. Make it truly a fair system, with no deductions. Stop trying to modify behavior through tax code
We do not have a tax problem, we have a spending problem. A plan to lower taxes would boost out economy as it did when Ronald Reagan was president. Those with money will spend it, creating jobs, which increases income tax revenue, while lowering the unemployment rate, which reduces dependency on government, which reduces spending. Its that simple.
vote early and vote offten, because only the slave votes to be beaten.

Bow before your god, the flag and lick the boot of the thug in charge, it makes no difference. You are all to blind to even open your eyes. Its like a huge case of stockholm syndrom, give power to those who abuse it and enjoy the scraps off the table that the leave.
jp kile
Since when was it so evil to make a profit, to be "rich", without the rich there are no factories, no business's, oh yea I forgot for some of you who wish that the govt owned all the business you could get even more UNTIL they tell you they need more, and take more. What you want is SOCIALISM,I'll fight to the end before that.
+Gustav Hartvigsson the fact that people pay indirectly for healthcare, at least in the US, leads to unaffordable rising costs of the actual care.  When you don't worry about what the cost of something is because you only pay a small portion out of pocket, you're not inclined to worry about the overall cost.
If the global financial debacle is allowed to continue, more people will die than both world wars combined.
as if anyone cares if people die around the world, what a load of crap that is
Hmm jealousy Ryan of what let's see I have a degree but I'm working a blue collar job because I was laid off the bank in 05 who was the president.of yeah it was a clown who was a C average student who was accepted to a ivy league school while myself who was A- student with a 1450 Sat score wasn't accepted ,also bush was a governor of a state on the verge of bankruptcy and all his business ventures where failures now you want to put another clone back in newsflash trinkle down economics don't work unless your overseas
+Matthew Graybosch true true. Well stated.
However the phrase doesn't at all seem to imply not questioning your government. It does however seem to imply that the solution to many of our issues is by looking for a solution that you yourself can create rather than waiting for a solution to be created for you. 
+Peter Priskas yet Norway has a 40 bil government surplus (yes I know its mostly due to Stat Oil) Obama is hardly socialist anyways unless you are a beck/limbaugh fan or just not paying attention. I'm still trying to figure out how making free riders buy their own insurance is "socialist" Seems in the Fox era reality has little to do with the talking points
learn what words mean, all forms of government are a form of socialism.
So the rich deserve to pay less in taxes because they are rich?
What happens when there are no more "wealthy" people? When public unions are the normal and when the federal government becomes the main employer and caregiver? Where will the money come from then? Just trying to make sense out of 'Obamanomics.'
the disparity between executive pay and hourly pay in this country has gotten out of control.  when a floor worker makes less than 50K, but the CEO gets over a million, something is very wrong.  pay the workers more, give back to shareholders, or reduce the price of your product with that money.
Tim, "your fiend" paid income taxes on the income to purchase his building, and eventually when he sells it he will have to pay capital gains taxes on the gains. He is pushing his cap gains taxes into the future, which is different from "paying no tax".

Of course in the short term, his consumption made possible by those loans is still paying local sales taxes for schools, etc.
+Peter Priskas You clearly don't understand Obama's tax plan.  It's already more regressive than Reagan's.  Anyone who calls it "socialism" is clearly just drinking right-wing kool-aid and hasn't done any real thinking or research into the facts, or history.
+Ryan Tempura -  Part of the reason to be rich is not just the basic human need for security but the very human need to be in such a coveted position that other people covet what they have, what they are, are jealous of them.  So please, the rapidly-getting-old counterpoint that people are jealous of the wealthy is tired.  Of COURSE poor people are jealous of the wealthy.  Now that we got that out of the way, most people don't want to tear down the wealthy and make them poor.  No, that's a common Republican talking point.  What the poor really want, and this is very rarely talked about on mainstream media is that we want the rules to be fair like they were in the past, when America really grew.  Not just for a few but opportunity was available for all who were willing to work hard for it and take a gamble.  Poor people just want a fighting chance to not be poor anymore.  The same chance/opportunity that rich people had at one time (when they were poor like us).  Now, the only opportunity/change that the rich believe in supporting are the chances that secure their wealth, grow their wealth at the expense of all others.  What the rich don't understand is that without the poor and middle class to purchase their goods, they will soon be as poor as the rest of us.  The rich, do not seem to understand that.  All good predators know not to over-hunt a area.  The rich nowadays do not even have that common sense. 
+jp kile You clearly didn't read or understand the piece. Wealth created by real businesses with customers also creates jobs. Wealth created by gambling in the biggest casino in the world does not. Yet we reward the latter with lower taxes.  Why?
How about just a flat tax where we all pay the same percentage regardless of income level or source of income, and we top it off with no deductions or 'loopholes' for anyone -not even mortgage interest. Nice and simple.  No more games.  No more politics with the tax code.
tim im sorry, but amout does not alter the fact it is a means to redistribute wealth, the very DEFINITION of socialism, i had a lot of respect for you for along time but you are just playing a game of politics now. Honesty is always pushed aside for grain isnt it.
Jeff kmet it will be a better country I'm a teamster don't mock unions unless you like being paid a slave wage no child labor laws ,breathing toxic fumes and no medical or with united we stand divided we beg
+Jeffrey Hamby
But we have a stabile economy, and one of the happeist populations...

Now I need to give citations to this... but I need to go now... ;-).
+Gustav Hartvigsson and a smaller population and less diverse demographic.  What works there (and I'm sure it works fine) doesn't necessarily work here.
Ok crying Ryan hmm how many people you hire how much do you pay them what about medical and paid leave especially those with families ,funeral leave , show favoritism on your job hmm I can go on and on you must work in India
Mitt the twit only cares about bankers and oil execs. Ryan wants to get ride of social security and medicare. If they get elected I'll be immigrating because you wont be able retire in this country unless your kids are going to support you.
"As The Atlantic points out"... I stopped reading after that
+Alex Barrientos Government spending is at a high level right now because of financial policies that led to massive bailouts of the financial sector and the destruction of the productive economy.  And FWiW, government spending as a percentage of spending saw its previous high under Reagan and the first Bush, fell under Clinton, rose again under Bush, and now Obama has to pick up the tab from the excesses of the last Republican administration.  *When will people get that the Republicans talk smaller government but never provide it?*  The federal deficit has grown under every Republican administration; it has shrunk only under a Democratic administration (Clinton).
+Ryan Bollerbe, you are unworthy of my attention if you assume that anybody who dislikes Republicans must support Democrats. I think Obama should stand trial for war crimes, given his doctrine of fighting terrorism by using drone strikes to kill people without due process. We can put Biden in the dock next to him, right after we put Bush and Cheney on trial for their crimes against humanity.
+Tyler Porter Please watch Nick Hanauer's TED talk: Nick Hanauer 

Low capital gains taxes do little for job creators,  lots to reward financial speculators.
Terry shut up loser want a good budget how about a minimum wage hike and congress can't get a raise unless they match there increase with a the poor first why not all millionares in the congress and senate pay there own medical and can't collect s.s.I and no pension let the.use a private 401k ban assault weapons because you don't need a ak 47 to shoot deer , legalize weed and tax no I don't smoke , quadruple tax companies that take jobs overseas since it will be cheaper to stay over here and add more school days and pay for more schools and rail infrastructure to decrease the highways and gas prices will drop also power which would drop gas and toxic powers dramatically ,also promote tax incentives for companies that hire,mentor young kids in high school with job prep and donations for science and math labs to make our kids smarter
+Matthew Graybosch
I'm sure anyone with 2 cents worth of knowledge and a calculator could figure that out.
but once again you avoid the point that our system is based on what an individual does. No matter what the government does, individual actions can and will change the course of history. you dont ask what your country can do for you because in the end (until perhaps we reach singularity) everyone sitting around on google+ complaining and not being proactive will never achieve anything worth being proud of. Take some action. Do something for your community. Your county. And those you love. 
Also adding, the upper class tend to be job destroyers. Its the middle class who disproportionately are the job creators. In fact, most of the wealthy create jobs by cutting them here and creating them in other countries. Once this fact was made known, the propaganda immediately moved away from the term, "job creators." That's why you only hear it parroted by the ignorant these days.

Interestingly enough, Obama had been busted twice using federal tax dollars to train foreign workers so as to allow his "job creators" to outsource US jobs. Obviously good times when we are using federal tax dollars to destroy US jobs. Of course the "job creators" won't bother to tell you the jobs they created were in other countries, usually at the cost of US jobs.
There could be a little bit of "reaching" from Romney's camp to the recalcitrant TEA party's camp in the selection of Ryan.
Romney's presidency would be "more of the same" as of today, which has been working exceedingly well for Wall Street elites at the expense of the budget and the middle class.
Ryan 3 employees kinda skimpy try working for a company with .2.5 million then we will talk and I don't live in slow Midwest city I live in nyc.the money capital.of the world
steve we all know the problem is not the leader of the country but the money itself america should be printing its own currency...duhhh you do know all about americas are focusing on the wrong issue...
Ryan has done the math, O'Reilly admits he has not. At the fork in the road about fiscal policy one has to pick one of two goals:
1. are we aiming at making the rich pay more, a "fairer" policy
2. are we aiming to stimulate the economy and optimize government revenues

To put it another way, if the end result of a tax policy were more revenue for government and more jobs, would we care what the tax rates for the rich were?  

How do we accommodate the fact that once taxes take more than 25% of a person's income, that person--rich or poor--finds a way to evade or avoid paying more?  (This is an almost universal phenomenon and neither dictatorial regimes with vicious punishments nor our thousands of pages of tax code have prevented it.)  

How do we craft a tax policy that takes into account the fact that even when rates on the rich were over 75% they actually paid less of the national budget than they do now?

A tax policy has to deal with the reality of politics and the real way humans behave.  And, oh yes, it has to produce enough revenue to pay the bills. So far only Ryan has proposed something that begins to address both challenges.
Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?  No?  Wanna hear some more lousy excuses and blaming the last guy or are we finally ready to let someone lead this country who is an adult, who has experience other than taking and distributing other people's money and being paid for it. Oh, and this time, how about we elect someone who isn't hiding his his past and who has shown us more of his recent tax returns than Dirty Harry Reid.  
Kurt I'm better I wish my budget plan I posted helps you why not vote for me oh yeah I pro capital punishment and want a international crime database for DNA to free the innocent and excute the guilty
Romney doubled down on the Conservative Dogma...and alienated Independents and anyone with a concern for 'Community Programs'.  Its a sad 4 years for 99% of America if this ticket wins!
Someday I hope we as a country can develop a rational tax policy. I would prefer a VAT combined with the income tax. The income tax would apply only to high income individuals on all income above the maximum social security tax. No cap gains or dividend differentials. Anyone with income levels below to maximum SS tax would only pay the VAT. To reduce the impact of the VAT on low income folks use a similar approach as the earned income tax credit in today's tax code.

Business owners should be able to deduct business expenses but not cap gains.
Ryan just pay your taxes or shut the FUCK up
If you make a pretty penny, then invest that back into the economy. If you don't, we'll do it for you. If you make billions of dollars a year (which I assume you don't, just as an example) and pay nothing in taxes and store all of your money away, then you are literally taking money out of the economy, at the expense of everyone else.
oh, im so SICK of Romney!!!! all he talkes about is how bad of a job Obama has done!! its just his 1st fucking term!!! howes he sapposed to fix Bushes mess in 1 term!!??
+Ryan Tempura More as in percentage or dollars? What percentage in disposable income? "More" is frequently relative.

For what its worth, you actually sound like a job creator, which is normally exclusive of you when the term "job creator" was coined for propaganda.

Umm yes you did are your company products made in America ? Guess not
How'd you hop from the suggestion that you should do something for your government means not to question them?

I have finally read all the messages in this thread. There are a lot of misdefined terms and erroneous explanations of historical events here. Bush's economic policies (which were bad for a host of legitimate reasons) had nothing to do with the 2008 crash. The roots of what caused that crash go back extremely far, and even democratic policies had a hand in growing the bubble that burst in that incident. The beginnings of the sub prime mortgage bubble burst were when government peeps who wanted to obtain votes from people with little understanding of economics decided to fiddle with market forces so that more people could live in huge houses whether or not they had the resources to do so with a natural market equilibrium. Sub prime mortgages were the result of this push creating artificial demand for houses that can't be sustained on its own. This meant artificial supply increases occurred as the market tried to reach a new equilibrium. The artificial demand is gone now though and we are left with the inflated supply, now in a state of oversupply. 

Capitalism is not a system meant to make the wealthy wealthier and the poorer more poor. No system has provided such a high degree of economic mobility. The thing is economic mobility doesn't mean everybody is going to be millionaires. It's just that unlike feudalism, where you MUST be born to wealth or you can never obtain it, or communism where you MUST be in the ruling echelon of the ruling oligarchy, you have the opportunity to become wealthy if that is your goal and you make the right choices. The fact poor still exist doesn't mean that the children of those poor can't go on to become extremely successful, and they do, all the time, just not all of them. You are responsible for yourself. This gives you a lot of freedoms not given to those under feudalism or communism. It also gives you responsibilities. If you want a system where everyone is wealthy, it simply does not exist. Maybe one day a system like that can exist, but we'll need a lot of technological progress to make that possible. Technological progress is accelerated under free market forces, so a capitalist system will get us closer to that bright future much faster.

Many companies are profitable, and maybe even historically profitable, but the dollar is also constantly losing value. Companies have to make more profits than they used to to keep up with inflation, and hopefully surpass it if they are to be successful.
Seems you guys will be moving into feudalism shortly, where the lower class serfs pay for the privileges of the upper classes... :)
+Tim O'Reilly What you are calling gambling, we who believe in capitalism over socialism call risk taking. As another person has commented... we don't rebate people when they lose money so we should not punish them when they gain. So to me it comes down to how much is enough. With the current leadership the answer is only when they control it all. I can agree that the rich have and do abuse the capitalistic system to the hurt of some of us. However, I will support this system over a tyrannical sprawling government any day. We will still have freedom in a democratic republic whose economic system is capitalism... we will not under the government that our current president envisions.
Also Ryan do you buy books for libraries tell you city to hire more teachers , go to low income neighbors to set up a mentor program to steer kids towards a goal in life without crime hmmm still waiting Ryan I don't consider tipping more then 15% giving back to the economy
Take this to Twitter or Faceboook please.
The US is not a capitalist system. It's a mixed system. 
I didn't say make I said buy products hmm is your car America union made do you buy only America products or from a union shop I can't wait to hear your answer
We don't have a tax revenue problem in this country.  We have a huge spending problem and the masses do not understand the relationship between the federal, state and local governments. 
+Kevin Johns, it would be risk-taking if, say, the financial industries didn't run crying to Mommy State for a rescue package when their "risk" did not pay off. As long as the private sector relies so heavily on the State to prop them up, defend them through Government-sanctioned monopolies and import tariffs, there is no true capitalism.
It would go in the right direction.  We as a nation should never take away or limit man's incentive to prosper.  
Ryan you never commented on my budget plan for America by the way I got the ideas from teddy d
Yes, there is a tax revenue problem.  When the top 500 corps continue to live tax free, there is a BIG problem.  They are people, and should they want to continue living in the land of liberty, they need to pay their fair share or GTFO and let small business owners who are willing to pay their taxes for the right to do business here.
+Ryan Tempura I'm self employed too. I understand what you're saying, but adding some of those things are disingenuous from a comparison bases.

In fairness, you sound like an upwardly mobile middle class, on the lower end of upper class, not the ultra rich.

Also adding, I was asking for simple clarification. Far too often people hide in ambiguity of words.
He may not be the best man for the job, but he's a lot better than the alternative.
I always hear distribution of other people's money is bad, but all the money the 1% has amassed must have been someone else's too, at one point? So I guess distributing money to the poor is socialism, but doing it for the rich is capitalism?
Investing = taking your money and betting on 00.... the only way it has worked so far is because the game is fixed. Fix the REAL economy, the one that produces real goods with real labor. Fuck Wall St. The real American dream is hard work and hard earned pay... f you 1%.. they don't create jobs. I mean, not in the US they don't. They are just going to take the tax cuts call it capital gains. Laugh at how great the "market" is doing while most other ppl will suffer to pay the money they borrowed to fight two wars. No one wants to say it but Bush is to blame for the deficit. The economy crashed at the end of his 8 year term after pulling back regulations, borrowing for two wars, and cutting taxes for the rich. Yes he gave everyone else $500 in cuts while fbags like Romney got millions back. Cutting teachers salaries by 20k on $50k salary is OK but raising millionaires taxes 3% ( what they were under Clinton ) is unacceptable.. give a break. I bet 99% of those republican blockheads that can't see between the political bullshit will be worse off when their taxes stayed the same at the expense of cutting viable services (road maintenance , retirement funding, regulations in water and air pollution, tax cuts, fair employment protections, reduced pay, increased educational costs,... ) . Yeah that will make a better stronger country. Let's look at the 3rd world or china and see how great the general population is doing. I'm not saying Obama is a saint. His administration has made bunch of idiotic decisions but at least they won't cut my throat to feed the fat cats on top. ...
Even with the extremely slanted and myopic view you've taken, I still support a Romney/Ryan ticket over the corruption represented by the Chicago style thuggery and socialism of Obama. We don't need a country that's run by someone who believes that dependence on government is a good thing.
What most people don't understand is in most cases capital gains has already been taxed! When you invest in your companies stock through options taxes was already paid by wage earners. They risk this income in the market, often with more losses than gains and are forced to pay taxes again on it!
+Liz E it would be fair to point out crony capitalism is different from pure capitalism.
This article is about capital gains which is what you get when you sell a stock at a higher price. So Romney's income is mostly from capital gains. The average small business owner is not making his money from capital gains but from sales. The point is to discourage the insane level of risk taking (ie gambling) that is taking place. If anyone thinks things will change no matter who is in charge they are kidding themselves.
Well, Ryan, either your employees are paid well beyond the market or  you wouldn't be affected by the new taxes. You have to earn over $250,000 / year or have employees that make that much to pay any higher taxes under Obama's plan.
Get real, Obama's plan makes more sense, as it is with write offs and loopholes the uber wealthy aren't paying crap and they haven't been creating jobs either! Wake up you idiots!! I know people who work three jobs just to survive and it's still not enough to make ends meet who pay more in taxes cause they have no write offs than people making ten times more!! Get your snobbish heads out of your asses and stop blaming welfare recipients for the problems! With oil companies making billions in profits there is no reason we're paying almost $4 a gallon AGAIN!
The average people get tax breaks so they can tie the knots ans survive another day. While the rich get tax breaks to make more money. Yeah that makes sense. We the people drive the economy not the person that created the product. Demand droves production and growth. Not simply tax cuts. If the population can't afford goods we don't grow. So ultimately the people should drive wall St not the fixed corrupt casino BS that it is now.
Lower the capital gains tax; lower withholding tax; give me a break.  I do not receive free Medicare or Federal health benefits; I pay for my own health insurance...stop your whining. And, I am retired.
As long as there is a government to decide who the winners and losers are in the economy (incorporations, limited liabities, limited time(in some cases) granting of monopolies with patents and copyrights, no "system" that government will or can come up with be fair to anyone, ESPECIALLY the poor.

Want to help the poor, put an end to police abuse of the homeless, give them real means of putting thier lives back together rather then impliminting laws (taxes based upon opinion backed by the violence of the state.) that not only hinder them, but in fact pushes them under the water and holds it.

Please, dont pretend as if you actually care, its rather sicking, expecially watching those who support this systemm of government cheered for joy over hitting a rock in space with a lego mindstorm while telling a homeless man he should be greatful we have a government that can do that.

You are all extremely insulting to logical rational thought when you think you have some "god/government" given right to tell other people what they can and cant do with there property, and that goes for the most important property of all, the body. If you think voting for laws that say i cant buy raw milk, that I cant collect rain water for my garden, that I cant sit at home and smoke a plant and eat some ice cream, you are in fact telling me that you own me, as if i am some slave. I am not a slave, and you will never be my slave masters. 

The reality is when you vote, you are committing an immoral act against humanity, that humainty you pretend to care about. not that it matters.
I block anyone who can't debate without calling people idiots.
+Jeffrey Hamby pure capitalism is known to be as corrupt, if not more so, than communism. I'm not exactly sure what you are calling crony capitalism, but pure capitalism is sure to be far, far worse.
+Jeffrey Hamby thats half the fun, no one debates. People tell you what you are to think and if you dont agree, your an idiot. well, i can be quite colorful in my wording. But its not a game for everyone thats for sure.
We all have to realize that whether you like a program or not, if there's no money to pay for it, its going to go away. For the first time in our history, our defecit is higher than our entire GDP. That means if every single dollar our economy creates were confiscated, we would still have to borrow money. At least Ryan has the guts to come up with a plan to fix things. Obama and the dems have yet to even propose a budget, much less allow Repub budgets to come to the floor for a vote.
Romney's a mormon (sometimes with two m's and sometimes with one). Mormons think if you make shitloads of money that's god rewarding you, probably because you're a good person. That's why Romney gives the poor and the middle class the middle finger because in his opinion if you're a bum or a financially struggling worker, it's all your own fault: you must have done something wrong for god to punish you like that! People should care a bit more about the troubling fact that Romney's a mormon and the influence it has on him. Clearly, there's the Romneys, and there's "you people" (us)...
+Ryan Tempura, you'd have to ask them. You're not "Big Business" if you've only got three employees, and you appear to treat them well; therefore I myself don't have an argument with you. My beef is with corporations which are so rich and so well-entrenched that no government dares move against them in any meaningful way. Regulation isn't enough when the biggest corporations in America can use campaign finance to rig elections by ensuring that only candidates friendly to large corporations can get funding, and thus have a chance in hell of being elected.

For what it's worth, I consider myself a libertarian, but I think libertarianism is flawed in that it does not recognize that corporations are creatures of the state (since incorporation and its attendant privileges is granted by government), and doesn't recognize the threat economic power can pose to individual rights. It isn't enough to check the power of organized religion and the government's own authority; those whose wealth grants them power, privilege, and influence beyond the reach of ordinary people also need to be checked, because they have the means to trample the rights of others.
+Greg Copeland patently untrue. In pure capitalism there are no barriers to entry, so anyone can start a business that competes with one that is corrupt.

I think you might be thinking of examples that are actually provided by crony capitalism or when barriers to entry are put in place by misguided regulation.
Something I've seen through my experience here in the United States as a citizen is that everybody is big and bad until they are sitting in a home without electricity...hoping that the bank doesn't foreclose on their home that they could afford before the prices on everything else skyrocketed... 

Americans are sad, but funny:

-Still don't want to admit that they're government is no longer by and for the people
-Still don't want to believe that the original progressive tax system was put in place because of LIMIT greed...
-Still don't want to realize that they are being actively divided to benefit the few
-Still want to believe that their dollar is invincible while watching the prices rise...and blame it on the non-traditionally colored president (I don't like Obama for other reasons...not the debt--where the hell have y'all been for twelve years???!!) keep thinking you're changing your situation by voting out a D for an R or vice versa. 

The only change you will EVER see that benefits YOU... Is if you are able and willing to join with millions of other Americans and overthrow your government. 


When the founders of the country established the second amendment, it was not to hunt...or even defend your property from your neighbor. It was simply to protect yourself (family, property, etc.) from government intrusion and, if necessary, to run out the government if it didn't perform according to the Constitution. 

READ! (Before they take any more of your books away...)
+Ralph Sevy, my rifle is my property, but I don't see you defending my right to use "my property" by using corrupt politicians for target practice. Your rant brings to mind a speech given by Theodore Roosevelt in which he says that property should be the servant, and not the master. Oddly enough, the man was a Republican, and held positions which would be derided as socialist even by many Democrats.
He was also the leader of the Progressive Movement. Both major parties have shifted over time.
I thought this was an onion article at first.
+Ryan Tempura, I would suggest that as a small business owner, you have nothing to gain by allying yourself to the richest 0.01% of the American population who have appointed themselves as the country's ruling class. They are your enemies, as much as they are mine. They would happily drive you and every other small proprietor like you out of business to protect their own interests. I'm not interested primarily in making the rich pay more in taxes. I want to break their power over this country's government. I don't care how rich you are; your right to free speech doesn't outweigh everybody else's right to a republic which guarantees liberty and justice for all. Instead of imposing onerous taxes on an entire class of people, we should crack down on those who abuse their economic power. Put them on trial for corruption charges, and if convicted, confiscate their assets. The government already confiscates the assets of people suspected of involvement in the drug trade, and does so without due process; my proposal is therefore more just, since it at least requires conviction in a public trial by jury first.
+Matthew Graybosch Obviously you havent heard my rants about not enough good cop killers, if you wish to take out your frustrations that way, by all means, do not let me stop you. In fact I would do my best to defend you in a court of law. If such courts actually existed.

Also you should know by now its not politics to me, its morals. nothing more or less. 
+Jeffrey Hamby I encourage you to learn more about world history and even specifically the economic history of the US. Without fail, the closer to pure capitalism, the closer to slavery the system becomes. Pure capitalism is known to encourage monopolies which punish both consumers and workers alike. The wealth gradient becomes massive. Pure capitalism is hopelessly corrupt; just like communism. To believe otherwise is to believe humans are incorruptible. Surely you are not that naive.

Perhaps you mean something other than pure, unregulated, capitalism? Because otherwise what you are saying is factually invalid silliness.
+Kevin Johns, nobody on Wall Street is taking any risks. If they fuck up while gambling with other people's money, they run to Uncle Sam and demand a bailout. That isn't capitalism. That's a perverse sort of socialism in which the profits are privatized, and the risks shared among the people at large.
Because they only care for the rich people. Mitt romney and paul ryan do not care for the middle class and the poor.
Very happy to hear that Romney just gave the election to Obama with the appmt. of Ryan as his running mate. ;-)
Best way to stimulate investment and create jobs is to lower rates. Over 50% over Americans pay no tax, and actually receive money from the government. We need to get all paying the same rate. That is the only way it will ever be fair and stimulate growth in this country. To stimulate growth, people with wealth need to pay less in taxes.
we are here for many reasons..hate of political parties is..verbotten
+Ryan Tempura So your highest paid employee makes about 100K and you make over 250K but you say you're only making slightly more? 
+Liz E I have a Will you be my mistress? I love you already... 

It's preposterous that people don't do their homework, and then try to argue a talking point. It's annoying at best, and a waste of an otherwise beautiful brain at worst. This is the reason that our country is falling: PEOPLE DON'T USE MULTIPLE RESOURCES. 

Government is SUPPOSED to be by and for the people. Nothing more...nothing less. 

The frightening part for me is that these same individuals who claim the government is all bad, stand strongly behind the corporations that have corrupted it...

+Ryan Tempura That's because they are selling you flavored water. With government approval by the FDA, your utility can do the same. Sadly, the government is prohibited from competing against commercial interests (with the USPS being a noteworthy exception).
+Shane Soules Ask yourself this question: Why don't we all pay the same dollar amount regardless of income? The answer to the question will provide insight into why a flat tax isn't a good idea.
Ryan's plan is sound and responsible. Small and large businesses and the private sector needs to thrive to get people back to work. Like Calvin Coolidge said, "I want people to work more for themselves  and less for the [wasteful & out of control] Government." The article is simply a political hit piece, and to describe it as briefly and accurately as possible, it is an under-detailed load of hypothesized equivocation to make Romney and Paul Ryan look like their not as good as they actually are.
+Ryan Tempura Try again. Read the ingredients. They all have minerals added for flavoring. That's why they taste better. Read enough brands and you will notice the same minerals repeated over and over. As far as the FDA is concerned, those minerals are additives and are therefore regulated.
+Tim O'Reilly
"It has always seemed strange to me... the things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling, are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest, are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second."
John Steinbeck

Regardless of the facts in this post, many will vote against their own personal best interest. The reasons for such decisions are irrelevant and are guarded by their constitutional right to do so!

Unfortunately, some of "the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”
Steinbeck again!
Tor Iver that's the republican way
Tax exemption should be modified, so should Capital gains, but the free money, and extensive welfare programs are as toxic as cocaine, and are incurable. Those on the take will ofetn will remain so for the rest of thier lives. Set a "get for work" program, and see how many slip away from this free take. Look at these on the corners with the small cardboard sign - " hungry, please help" and offer them a job to clean your yard for money or food and they sneer at you "Are you crazy"?
This small sample of the " Free" is symbolic of the national system.  
That's what's so wrong with Mr Rmoney's views.
"corporate America corruption of the government" is a laughable hypothetical talking point.

If government didn't have the power is wasn't supposed to have in the first place, big business and big money wouldn't bother buying policy.
People forget, capital gains taxes include things like if you bought a small house and made a proffit when you turned it or sold it when the value of the property went up. It also includes buying a classic car as a junker and its value once it's fixed up and customized and your selling an antique. Why? Because capital gains taxes are taxes on the proffit GAINED from the sale of ANY PROPERTY.
Filtration and distillation both remove minerals. Specific minerals in specific ratios are added back for flavor.

I didn't mean for it to sound like an evil conspiracy. I was just digressing that your utility water could taste better if they were allowed to do so...assuming consumers would pay for it. Its also worth noting, a LOT of bottled waters are literally right out of a municipal tap.
The fact that the author doesn't understand why capital gains are lower means he just doesn't understand how the economy works.
This guy is not really O'reilly! And P. Ryan is not nearly as interesting as his brother in those damn Indie movies!
+Shane Soules It's interesting that you bring up 50%...which equals one in two (or 1/2)...which is twice the amount of Americans living in POVERTY... Thus, 50% of the people NOT paying taxes ARE THE RICH! 

You think the impoverished should pay an equal tax rate as the rich? Which Kool-Aid have you consumed? Where are you getting your news? 

We're past theories at this point. We know that a flat tax won't work, because there's no incentive to not be greedy... The tax system (as unconstitutional as it is....) can be used to incentivize fair play. There's no reason for one man to have billions of dollars... That does not "stimulate" the economy... The only thing it does is stimulate the idea that "you can do it too" in the peons so that the rich man can stay rich and barricade his riches from you... lol

Just stop and think...
You act as if paying more in taxes is good for the economy, when taxes take money out of the economy. Government shouldn't be an economy's primary investor. It's that mentality that continues to be our primary problem.
Wanting to earn more and greed aren't mutually inclusive things.
Divide & Conquer!! They Stay Winning
be such disaster or all those 2 were elected
I can't help be amazed by folks always saying Bush tried to ruin the economy. Well if he was he failed. And if obama is trying to help it, he is really failing.
Agreed Matthew. Pres. Reagan described his vision of a globalized marketplace 30 years ago, saying we'd basically use our model of capitalism to help oppressed peoples around the world overcome tyrannical regimes and communistic governments; thereby, expanding and strengthening our Democratic way of life. I do not believe he would ever support this kind of undisciplined pursuit of greed if it meant so many Americans would suffer. We haven't raised the standards of living or quality of life around the world, as much as we've lowered our own standard of living. Capitalism is only a tool of our great Democracy. A tool we successfully used to become the best country in the world to live but we've allowed it to usurp the very values of our republic. It has become our north star, but it is actually a tiger in the cage, which cares nothing of individual liberties, freedom, our constitution, or bill of rights. Our politicians have sold us all out, while they fatten their personal coffers, legislating away every bar of the cage that once protected us from the tiger. A free globalized market system, like Romney subscribes, will inevitably seek to continue removing all forms of anything related to individual liberties, and target everything Pres. Reagan envisioned as, "The Shining City on the Hill". 
The armchair Republimbaughs of the internet are frustratingly hilarious. If you're middle class or below and think for one second that the Republicans of today care one iota about you then you are either under-informed or willfully foolish. This country was at its strongest during the progressive era of 40's through early 70's. The economy thrives under Democratic leadership because that leadership understands that the more people we have invested in the economy the better it does.

Concerned about the deficit/debt? Look no further than the Republican party. You don't cut taxes without cutting spending. The R's like to put on this big show of putting more money back in your pocket and then blaming the other part for shortfalls. This is asinine. When you decide at home that you need to cut some of your spending, do you force yourself to take less pay in hopes that it'll convince you to stop eating out so much? Hell no. And thanks for that war we all decided we could mysteriously have for free with no tax increases. That was some ludicrous BS.

And where are all of these mysterious job creators that have benefited from all of these tax cuts? They've had a decade to shower you with the fruits of their genius. But I seem to recall us having to bail them out from their egomaniacal financial wizardry. It's insane. The Republican party may have once believed in a strong and vibrant country that everyone could participate in but if you're not at least 40 years old you can bet that you've not seen them in your lifetime.
+Aaron L. Green never in the history of civilization have there not been the "haves" and "have nots".

also, if people want the rich to be less rich they need to stop giving them their money. Shop at small stores not wal mart. Stop buying ipods and useless stuff you don't need with money you don't have.

Learn to vote with your dollars and encourage your neighbours to do the same. It is the only way to solve the problem. Expecting the government, who is not your friend, to do it for you isn't going to accomplish anything.
I have a question for those that think the wealthy don't pay enough. WHAT IS ENOUGH?

If you actually think the wealthy don't pay enough. GIVE US A PERCENTAGE OF THIER WEALTH YOU FEEL SHOULD BE TAKEN FROM THEM. NOT SOME VAGUE BS!!!!
The government has proven time and time again they cannot handle the fiscal responsibilities they have.

Wanting to raise the taxes on just the wealthy is like going out to buy your recovering alcoholic uncle a 12 pack and asking someone else to pay for it...
75%. 75% should be what they pay.
I agree Ryan but I'm not a dem or gop
+Brad Dean first it's not health care. It's health insurance reform. You know those nasty insurance companies that the left spent all summer protesting? The plan just forced us all to use them or pay another tax. Second you know and I know that the Clinton surplus was a myth. Moving money from one part to make another part seem like a surplus is still a debt. 
+Aaron L. Green so are you suggesting that we have a lifetime cap on the amount of money one person can earn or just a yearly cap? Who would decide this limit? 
So Mitt paying $177,650 in taxes is not enough? Come on - where are the figures on where that ranks him in who pays the most taxes? Why would the Atlantic not provide that picture? As long as enough people don't ask the question that Joe Parker asks ("What is Enough?"), you'll have bureaucratic, big government elitists continue to ask for more. Are you really going to base your vote on how much in taxes someone will pay - as if $177,650 is not enough?
+Chris McNeilly weren't we at war pretty much that entire time? Don't you think the economy was boosted by having to make supplies for those conflicts? We were a nation if manufacturers then. We also had less regulation and could make things cheaper here. Now we can't do that. 
When it belongs to another guy, you want to strip his greedy ass of most of it. It's only right, you are just as deserving as him. If you get a roll of money through your own endeavors, you are shocked that anyone would think they have a right to what is obviously yours. No one did you any favors. Same old thing.
Both sides fighting about who to pin taxes on, why cant we talk about reforming the tax system completely and less government spending.  This is just a distraction.  We need less taxes not more regardless of which side of the fence you fall on.  Its still new taxes.  And lets face it the rich are always going to find ways out of paying taxes or passing it on to the small guy.
Anything other than a flat tax rate with no exemptions or subsidies produces net economic loss.
+Erick Lampro I love your enthusiasm, but reality isn't reflected.

The United States of America was founded because of Haves and Have-Nots. It was an effort to make the nation ABOUT THE PEOPLE....because of the monarchs etc. of history--specifically of England. 

So it's foolish to say "never in the history of civilization have there not been the 'haves' and 'have nots'" That may work in an idealistic world view, but not reality. 

Thus, because of the desire of people (a few...but rich) in the US to make the haves and have-nots, the tax system was designed as such....and it has been systematically broken down to be what it is today.

The reality is that the ONLY taxes authorized by the Constitution are those on Capital Gains. Taxes on wages are unconstitutional. Period. 


Moving on, the government IS your friend...unless you see yourself as the enemy. WE ARE the government. The mere fact that many see the government as something separate from them should let you know that much has run afoul and something more dramatic than "voting with your dollars" should commence...
Obama's entire cabinet when he was elected was ex wall street types.  So we are supposed to believe that he has the solution to the countries financial problems.  Bush was just as bad.  Less polarization more cooperation.  We are just tools of the political machine if we get sucked into the debate.
And do you think we are going in the right direction now. Wake up
what will it take 4 me 2 become impressed with mitt romney... paul ryan or not... i still don't get anything appealing about him... and i'm really searching too... john huntsman would have been so much more interesting and substantive a candidate 4 the republicans to have gone with... i guess i just answered my own ?
Small farmers hate capital gains, it values their farms too highly compared to what they produce and forces future generations off the farm or into legal trust holes. Its effectively another weapon for big business over artisan producers.
Mitt romney and ron paul are same as george w bush and dick cheney. Why vote for them.
Not sure what you are talking about.

Our founding fathers were the 1% that were mad at paying more than their fair share...
+Joe Parker When a very small portion of society has been allowed (make no mistake that capitalism is a man-made system that we ALLOW to exist) to accumulate so much of our limited resources that their heirs will not have to lift a finger to live like royalty for 10 or more generations and at the same time people are starving and in serious need of those resources, the system has failed. We need to be fair to one another. If we control the system, we can adapt the system. How much do YOU believe would be too much for one individual to own and control? What about 10 people? Where do we draw the line? If 80% of the world's population lived in poverty while the top .000001% controlled 90% of this planet's resources, would you consider that a problem? Are we not obligated to be our brother's keeper? Innovators, inventors, and successful businessmen/women deserve to be rewarded for their hard work. That's not the issue. The issue much is too much reward? CEOs never made so much as they do today. It never stopped them from improving or working harder to build a better business. Do you really think they'd work that much harder for $200,000,000 than they would for $50,000,000? These numbers are ridiculous. A small handful of the wealthiest companies could single-handedly end world hunger today and still be filthy rich. FILTHY RICH! 
I read all these comments here and see so much division, which makes sense. Everyone thinks differently which is good. But I would like to think that we all agree that something in our country is totally wrong. When it comes down to it, not "one guy" is gonna "save" this country. To be honest with you, I don't think America needs a president and vice president. America needs YOU. Everyone of us is needed no matter the age. We need to stop blaming people, groups, whatever, because it changes nothing. We have 50 states to try to find the best way for our quality of life. Everything needs to be even more local then that. You and I have to step up to the plate and take control of our own lives. It's time to be responsible, all of us are responsible for all of this and for what is to come. There can be no one ruling government as you can read and see how everyone thinks differently. Just don't cause physical harm to one another and respect people's privacy and that should be it. 
Remember if you're not helping solving the problem than you can't say anything. You see the greed of large corporations, banks and if you support them through products/ideas that they sell you, then why are you complaining? You want to buy things cheap (jobs that are produced outside this country for cheap products) but don't want to work for cheap, it doesn't make any sense. You support what you buy in this country, you support how this country is ran with letting things slide and not do anything about it. We are not to be fighting with every other because we want the same thing (to be able to work and make our quality of life and not to have oppression in this country that our forefathers fought and died for). There are just a few that are causing this problem of greed and power tripping. Remove them and prevent others to try it again and we'll be ok. No president/vice-president, senate, congress will not save this country. You and I will. 
I am not against government, I'm against big ( and especially big, corrupt government that we have now) government. Read the famous words of our president Thomas Jefferson and you'll see what's wrong with our government. You'll know what it was meant to be.
Loser parasites want all the rich's money so they elect politicians that are owned by the rich... leave well enough alone...
At least he's not a political sock puppet like Biden....he couldn't walk, talk or tear his way out of a wet paper sack!
Even if the founding fathers were the 1%, they weren't trying to create a system that gives them the power to prevent change...

I'm sure Halil meant Paul Ryan, not Ron Paul. I'd vote for Ron Paul if he had a chance because he might actually do something (which is why the media tried to ignore him even though he almost won enough for the Rep. primary). I can believe people would consider a president like Romney.
*couch* *cough*
Well, I know that Sweden has a population less then London, and most of the things are not applicable to the US... But it is an interesting system non the less...

And I just skipped most of the posts in this thread... b/c I am an arse....
I agree and pray that these men do not get in office, they are out to distroy the poor, cripple the middle class and make the rich even richer.
I agree and pray that these men do not get in office, they are out to distroy the poor, cripple the middle class and make the rich even richer.
Very well said.  I don't understand the working class Republicans who think that trickle down economics is the way to go, it just helps the rich buy luxury items that don't really create jobs (maybe just jobs for the yacht builders).
Make the government smaller.  Problem solved.
Obama's Tax plan to reduce the taxes on families earning less than 250k will create jobs because now the middle class can spend more on the necessities that create jobs, manufactured goods, food, etc...
thats already been accomplisheed by the current administration. We will see what happens if he gets relected and the health care bill goes into effect. get ready to pay up higher taxes and comply with the multiple hidden amendments that have nothing to do with health care.
Forgiver me if I sound amateur ;" As B. Clinton said" . Thank God for put together a Brain team.M.ROMNEY P.RYAN.There is no AMATUHERE here! AAAAAAANNNNND.AMEN.
The Bush era tax cuts are about to expire for individuals earning more than 200k/year or families earning more than 250k/year, if you make more than that, vote Romney, if not, vote Obama, doesn't seem much more complicated than that.
I think we went wrong in 1776...should have stayed a colony...
Simple plan to create jobs:  Tax the middle class less, they'll have more money and won't need to work two jobs and weekends just to make ends meet.  Suddenly, jobs open up because individuals are doing less.  _Was that so hard, America?_
I voting Obama over mitt dummy and Ryan nut one I'm a union member and ryan part of a anti union coupe in Wisconsin and Lawrence.what budget Romney has besides cutting funding from programs that benefit the nation I.e Medicare, let's see cut funding makes sense to give rich more money and take more money for the poor that sure worked.out in the 2001-2008 oh yeah blame unions noticed.more planes crashed since he fired the air traffic controllers not.asked for more government just smarter government
Michael Vaughn also how about companies stop saying they pay a lot of taxes when they have more loopholes then the average poor family I.e cooperate welfare why not pay them a real.wage.where they can support themselves and make a nation living wage law that applies for the real inflation rate per city because what I pay for rent here can buy me a house or 2 in Colorado hope your reading Ryan
100% agree on increasing the time horizon for short-term vs long term capital gains.
  Also a financial transaction tax would be helpful. Automated trading that depends on investing in trends milliseconds before another automated trade can does nothing to help the real economy.
+kien spicer You're not completely clear, but I think I see where you're going.

The solution to the living wage is to tax the rich more... This empowers the rich to pay more in wages since they aren't reaping a benefit by paying less in labor. 

Taxing the rich more (around it used to be) solves many issues...from outsourcing to social security. 

They had it right the first time...let's just go back to the way it was... Very, very easy. Just as easy as locking up a disproportionate amount of minorities to fill the private jail owner's coffers. 

People over-think this situation, when the reality is that the Constitution had it right. Even the 3/5ths of a person deal was right given that it was in reference to slaves. Now, your vote means nothing since they are all touting the same nonsense. 
I have really enjoyed reading most of the comments in this thread... I think that most have good points others need to stop regurgitating Fox/MSNBC talking points. The problem is is that we allow our government to do things that were not solely written in the Constitution. Because of this we are in the state we are in. Our government is out of control. And neither Obama or Romney are going to fix it. They are going to swing the pendulum slightly in the favor of one special interest group or another. Until we change the whole of government away from things they have no business being involved in like education, agriculture, environmental protection, transportation safety, etc they will always have an excuse to confiscate wealth and pick winners and losers... For those of you that whine about having a degree but can't find a job that pays what you think it should pay maybe you should of majored in something more marketable. For those of whining about the minimum wage and think this will help people make more money so they can become upwardly mobile, wake up, whatever you raise it to would cause the price of the very items they produce go up and in the end makes things worse because small businesses hire less minimum wage people. If you are small business owner I applaud you for all that you do and have to deal with I couldn't do it that's why I became an engineer. If you can make billions doing what your doing more power to you. If you give back to the community I applaud you! If not I won't demean you I will just purchase else where because I believe we should all give back. That is what is great about the free market, if a company isn't doing what is deemed appropriate by society is polluting rivers, discriminating against workers or not contributing to the community then we can buy elsewhere and that company will perish. For those who whine about wall street I would like to hear you mention Hollywood in your disingenuous argument. These people make money hand over fist. They make their movies in countries that don't have unions to escape those costs yet bemoan the inequities of the working man. Anyway this was my 2 cents on this. By the way I am a patriot first, conservative second, and haven't been a republican since Reagan... God bless America!
Those who care only about their quality of life and nothing about their children or grandchildren have no concern regarding the debt that is being passed on to the next generation
So the answer is four more years of what? Four more years of 9% unemployment and $16.5 Trillion debt?

The Democrats have ruined our housing market with Carter's "Homes for everybody that breaths" legislation. Then there is "Fwanks" & Dodds superb handling of Fannie & Freddie, the bailing out Wall Streets and bankers, as well as insurance companies that should have gone belly up to root out the terrible mismanagement of funds. And now this Communistic form of "insurance for everybody including illegals and abortions". What can Obama do next?

He's already left those brand new shovels for "shovel ready" jobs out in the rain and they've gone to rust. He's suing as many states as possible (at the cost of the tax payer) that takes matters into their own hands because DC refuses to enforce laws already on the books for a reason, and sold 2800 high caliber rifles to terrorist drug cartels inflicting hundreds if not thousands of murders in Mexico, and then denying everything about it.

He's stopped all new oil drilling in the country to make sure his friends in the middle-east make enough to finance the '200 million that come against Jerusalem' by selling us oil at exorbitant prices with a 20% 'infidel tax' on it.

The economy is in the crapper and still only ONE Democrat in the bunch to admit to 'owning the economy'.
+Aaron L. Green without discussion on the changes in the IRC that came about in 1986 nor what the actual effective tax rates were in this "golden era" were your post is unfounded and not relevant.
+Robert Kmetz : I agree with you on some points, the government is bloated and inefficient, why should we make the government decide everything in our lives? Totally Free market doesn't work either, look at the turn of the century when the meat packing industry was not regulated at all, any meat you bought came from disease infested plants, but the consumer couldn't do anything about it because every meat plant was the same, up to your knees in blood and guts.  It's the same thing with pollution and big oil today, you can't say deregulate everything because there is no choice in the matter, a consumer couldn't say don't buy power from xyz company, they pollute and dump mercury into our drinking water because each power company does that without regulation, it's the cheaper way to operate.
With what these guys spend on hair products alone could cut the debt in half.
It's odd to me that the Republicans, ostensibly the party focused on money, have the relationship between jobs and money backwards. When someone starts a business that satisfies a demand, they grow the business, create jobs, and eventually make money. The money flows from the consumer demand, through the system, eventually producing wealthy people. Simply giving wealthy people more money doesn't achieve anything beyond making wealthy people wealthier.

+Theodore Barkley the housing bubble wasn't caused by Carter-era laws against racists excluding blacks from buying houses in the "white" part of town. Among other things, that was decades earlier, and those weren't the loans that went bad. The housing bubble was caused by scam artists selling loans to people who were clearly unqualified (but were assured by "serious bankers" that the numbers worked out, and they made the mistake of trusting the bankers), then immediately flipping the loans to banks that were too busy chasing money to worry about managing risk, to the point where anybody at the bank that pointed out the risk got fired/sidelined because it made their management look bad. Then it was made worse due to banks turning the whole industry into a completely unregulated casino by inventing CDOs, which crash the way all unregulated markets do. The fix, to state the obvious, is to require the same banks that sell the mortgages to service them, so they're forced to manage risk instead of playing a shell game. And don't allow unregulated markets, because they're always a disaster. And keep the traditional banking and investment banking separate, so when the gamblers lose their bets, they don't threaten to wipe out the banks that actually do something of value to the rest of us.
And again. Our founding fathers created this country because they were the rich that were "taxed more"...

logic dictates the rich will continue to send their money overseas were the citizens there and government there don't punish them.
You obviously dont understand economics. Supply and demand with government out of the way. This nation can't afford four more years of the marxist Obama.
Wow, you have a staggering inability to understand basic economics. If I weren't a real man I'd weep. 
People vote for a certain canidate because of personal belief they dont look at the big picture. Romney is going to take us back to the time and working wages where we were when people picked cotten for a place to live and food. I do not stand with Obama on all the issue's but at least we have a fighting chance with him to keep wages up for the working man. Remember the rich fought to keep slave labor legal and they will do it again if kept unchecked.......
+Laird Popkin :  While agree with you on how the banks "gamed" the system, The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 set the stage. Disguised as an anti-discriminatory Bill, the banks were forced to loan to people they knew were unable to pay the loans back.

The government is as much to blame as the banks.
+kien spicer I work in a non-union factory, have better benefits than many union cronies, and I don't have to pay some idiot dues so I can go to work. Unions served their purpose and now only serve to drive companies out of business or into moving jobs overseas. The UAW was the prime cause of GM and Chrysler's financial troubles. Your outdated support of those idiots who only care about maintaining their positions within the union shows your ignorance.

This argument will always continue as long as there are those that are jealous of what the wealthy have and think they contribute to the tax revenue like the wealthy does.
+Tim O'Reilly quoted, "The federal deficit has grown under every Republican administration; it has shrunk only under a Democratic administration (Clinton)." It can also be said, "The federal deficit has grown under every Democratic Congress; it has shrunk only under a Republican Congress (Clinton)." The House starts all appropriation bills after all. (Well, except for the Affordable Care Act...had to do some late night trickery to get around that one) Let Obama have the Presidency, give the Senate to the Republicans, and put Ryan back as the chairman of the House Budget Committee.
+gayle noble we all benefit from the infrastructure (physical, administrative, judicial, social, economic etc.) that exists because, directly or indirectly,the government exists. Any rewards we reap therefore owe a debt to that government. The more you reap, the more you're benefiting from these structures, the greater your debt. If you deny a sliding scale tax system you're somehow choosing to remain ignorant of some extremely basic ideas about nation building. Go live in lawless village where your workers die at 30, are illiterate and can't be punished for stealing your produce and tell me how much you like it.
+kien spicer , your assertion that corporations have more "loopholes than the average poor", is a false one. I have this argument with Democrats all the time.

Check it out. The "average poor" DON'T PAY ANY TAXES by virtue of them actually being poor. Get it?

Here's another thing to think about; If you confiscated ALL of the wealth of the top 20% of the "rich", we still couldn't pay off the $16.5 Trillion debt the Democrats have racked up.

Class Warfare does none of us any good.
+Daniel Buchner I'm not suggesting that there isn't a reason to cut government spending, and I agree with you that a flat tax makes much more sense.  I don't actually think Obama or Romney can fix the screwed up mess our country is in.  But cutting every government program and giving the money to billionaires is definitely not the answer.  I also agree with you that we can't expect to reduce the debt by taxing the rich alone, I'd just like to see income from capitol gains taxed at the same level as my income
16.5 Trillion debt Democrats racked up?

+Glenn Gregory Really?. You are either ignorant or lying when you say that under Obama we can have working wages. Real wages have fallen under Obama for the first time in decades because of his ignorance in how the economy works.
Cut Medicaire and Social Security and let everyone fend for themselves.  Oh, and cut all taxes.  That'll stimulate the economy!
This is just my take but there are several things most Americans are ignorant about that need to be cleared up. First understand that anyone and everyone creates jobs simply by buying products and services. If a country had no upper or lower class but had the same amount of money as the u.s. would have the same level of job creation. Money out= money in, its simple math. Second, it won't matter who you elect, unless the current government system is changed dramatically, the current system will continue to serve only corporate interests. Finally, understand that the human can't fathom how much 1000000000 is so the fact that people have that much money shouldn't be acceptable to anybody.
Ien don't forget crime and anarchy
Can GM please repay the billions they owe do we don't have to increase taxes?
Theodore really what planet you from who told you the poor don't pay taxes because when I was in school I had a part time job because the norm now republicans want ppl to work 3 jobs to live I made a average 18000 a year paid about 11k in taxes used the refund to buy books for next year and rent so please tell me who don't pay taxes jackass please don't say welfare recipients because they get about 12000 a year in taxes which most of them work in a workfare program and if they have kids how far that money goes enlighten me because my gf halfway to her associte degree and works and pays more in taxes then her employer and hey Ryan she could use a job so spread the wealth
Move to Russia if you want everyone to be on equal footing fools.
Bonnie they paid most of it back and yes tax increase the rich not the reverse robin hood trickle down voodoonomics also Regan was a mooncalf with his plan and he did lose a war the so called war on drugs where he funded drug lords
They still owe us billions; we also don't have a budget!
Lovely idea.  Here's why the Democrats won't get behind it.  One.  It involves simplifying the tax system.  Many tax breaks and tax system complexity were put in by both parties with the best of intentions.  Some were meant to "stimulate the economy."  Others to re-shape society.  Removing complexity brings the undesirable facet of free will.  Not something the modern Democratic Party desires.  Instead they desire new sin taxes on things like carbon, energy and soda.  Two.  Any real reform involves limiting social security and medicare pay outs.  Anyone seeing the Democratic Party getting behind cuts or limits on these liberal scared cows?  Yeah so scratch that idea.
The average time a stock is held is around twenty seconds. So a year is about ten life times in stock time. I love when people like Tim, people ignorant to investing, pretend to know what they're talking about.

You want to punish capital gains, when capital gains are wonderful for society. Investment turns the engine of America. And guess who lives off of investments? Retired folks. People who put their money away to live well in their older years. You want to punish them.

You sir, are an imbecile.
So Robert you oppose the constitution which says all men are created equal or you believe.some ppl are more equal then others quoted by George Orwell
Doesn't matter who you vote for, that's what is so sad. Any plan that would help the majority of the populace had to be voted upon by politicians and they are the 1%! Until we the people can regain control of them and make corporate lobbying and financing campaigns illegal (and how to police that, I know) NOTHING CAN OR WILL EVER CHANGE...
Your a fuckin douche Mitt Romney, you and Paul aka Judas, will NEVER see the White House, and what kinda fuckin name is "Mitt" did your parents like baseball that much? Your a fuckin joke, and Americas worst possible candidate, id rather see the Bin Laden runnin this country than you. All the best, you fuckin assholes
Thanks Liz but in a major city like mines 32000 is barkley enough to make rent and pay bills and eat
+Matt Palmerlee How article with references. Am I the only one who read it? 

Of course, this isn't something I haven't been aware of, but many, many people are not. And, by the looks of things...they still are not. 

+Andrew H the 1% bs is just that. What we need is to divide our nation into two and coexist. The red states get the West the blue states get the East. We used to have ideologies that disagreed slightly. Now we have ideologies that have fundamentally different beliefs.
They will ruin this country they are for the rich they don't care about the middle class or the people omitted Medicare or social security they are crooks don't vote for them
Who would you TRUST.. give a rich person a million or a person like Thomas do what they will, but to return in a year with what remains or profits.
How many people would benefit or lose during that time from each ?
Where is the button to block all of this from your feed! 
Robert "unchecked congress is the reason for wage decrease" I try and refrain from calling people idiots go try and get a job through the temporary services its legalized slavery and check the wages they pay and what party takes the most money from them.
Two circus clowns in suits praying the can get in the white house , so they can pull a Hitler & Assad on this country.
Soooo, Paul Ryan, who does not come from "money" and has never worked a day in his life at a "Real" profession, got himself elected to Congress in his 20's, and now is worth upwards of $8,000,000. How does THAT work?
+kien spicer Your REFUND was spent.  In other words, you got your money back.  Second, I'm absolutely POSITIVE you didn't pay $11K in taxes on $18K income.

Please, learn how the tax system works before you perpetuate the lie that corporations don't pay more than the "average poor"....jackass.
Oh My mr.barkley !!! POOR JACKASS????? WOW!
Aside from all the taxes the rich have the luxury to avoid, what about the disgusting lifetime benefits paid to Senators and Representatives for relatively short careers?
What other job in America pays $174,000 a year for a 2 yr stint followed by the same pay for the rest of your life? Not to mention Health Benefits to go with it. no wonder they don't pay into Social Security, they are sucking it dry!
Cut those benefits and billions annually could be saved. Let them collect Social Security like the rest of us at retirement age. even the POTUS should not collect full pay after leaving office. It just isn't right. 
But what are the chances they would cut their own benefits?

Romney can't be President if he can't show us his tax history and I'm sure Obama has seen it and knows exactly why he won't share it.
Millions hidden in the Caymans and Swiss bank accounts? That and more I am sure.

The latest Republican ploy is to require a photo ID to vote. This is really just an attempt to exclude alot of people from voting who would otherwise vote. The Retired who don't drive as well as lots of college students and anyone without a license and the ability to get a photo ID.

Democrat or Republican no longer matters. They are party titles and a means to prevent the other from making change. It's no longer about what is good for America, only what is good for the majority party.

Obama wants to allow a Republican Tax Cut to expire so Romney calls it "raising taxes".
Where has Bush been through this presidential race? Is he too embarrassed by his history or Romney's potential further destruction of America?

Obama will be re-elected just because Romney would be worse for 98% of Americans and only better for the 2% who are rich and will only get richer.

The Gov't is broken and only a revolution will effect real change but we are all so used to our high standards of living, we are too scared to make it happen.

Wow I have heard this talk so many times.

To all out there that think that the wealthy and corporation are the job creators well you have no clue of how economy works. All the jobs and money that are created and earned by the wealthy and the corporations are because of the consumers. You can't tell me that ( well you could, if your IQ is lower than my 5 year old ) that all he people and companies would have made all these money on their own. No not at all. Someone had to make the money and than spend them. Guess who that is? Until everyone realizes that we all depend on each other and start treating each other with respect we are not going to move forward. And to some hypocrites out there that the wealthy pay most of the taxes and that we should not compare it percentage wise - go take a hike.

Oh there we go Romney's taxes came up . Someone will be asking for a birth certificate and college transcript in 3-2-1.
drop both subjects already.
+shirley elam: you need to read the proceeding posts to understand what I was getting at. I'm certainly not calling the poor "jackasses". I was calling Mr. Spicer that after he (not so) eloquently called me one, presumably because he thinks I don't know how the US Tax Code works. I submit to you that he, most assuredly, has no idea how it works. Evidence is his belief that he paid $11k in taxes on $18k of income.

Gimme a break.
+Daniel Buchner Progressive taxation (i.e. rich people pay disproportionately more than poor people) isn't "contrary to the very foundations of Liberty". Unlike you, the founding fathers viewed collecting taxes as fundamental to the functioning of the government that they were forming, and that it was their intention that the only fair way to finance the government was to have those who benefitted the most to pay not only more, but geometrically more. So unless you claim to understand the foundation of the United States better than Franklin and Jefferson and Adams, you'd better try another argument. Perhaps "I don't want to pay taxes, and I don't care if I make everyone else pay more"?
+Christina Mathis , because some people I am No going mention which group see paying their fair share as a punishment for being successful.
+Ryan Tempura . Your Apple analogies are pointless. I am talking about basic market rules. To make it easier for you compare it to gravity. :) and BTW Apple can't create anything without their employee's. And no I do not represent "your " school system I grew you elsewhere, but I see your point my daughter just started school and I genuinely scared of the school system.
+Ryan Tempura your sorry remarks are only proving my point. I have been here for a very short period of time and have accomplished more than a lot of folks my age that have been here all their life. NEVER have been on any program thank God.

Just as an FYI do not insult me on personal level that will only get you blocked. Also I pay for both the people in the picture + one. 
Almost 4 years and no plan from Obama. How convenient to pick apart the man who took the time to actually propose one.
Er... you are forgetting a little detail: Mitt would pay 0.82% now because he already paid taxes when he earned that money.
+Ryan Tempura . You really need to read posts in their entirety. The gravity point was regardless consumers creating jobs.
I wish we didn't have political parties. They get in the way of true progress because they work mainly to bring into reality what THEY (the party) believes is the ideal country, not what the people believe is the ideal country.
+valeri bonchev , Your ad hominem denegrations are not substantive arguments (referring to IQ and gravity).  Furthermore, it is apparent that you do not understand what creates a business, job creation, and the relationship between the businesses and customers (consumers).
+Ryan Tempura I don't know if you know Biblical literature or not but it would be worth your time reading Proverbs and what it says about arguing with fools.
Well my 2cents comment. I say go Romney&Ryan and kill the union they do more harm then good now they only want there due and that all why u think all auto maker went south NO union and they dnt want it it either good pay and benefit so screw the union
I agree with everything stated above!  Usually I have a quibble, but not this time.  Paul Ryan undoubtedly understand exactly how his plan helps the rich while robbing the poor.  Which means Romney is alright with this sort of government-sponsored attack on the middle and lower classes.
+Jason Butcher   Your comment is what I think most Americans share.  As i said earlier, four years of Obama and the only thing Democrats can come up with is "Ryan's plan sucks".
+Ryan Tempura . When exactly did I say Ryan should pay more taxes. All I am saying is that if you and me are paying 30% everyone should. I am not sure how Ty you perceived my comment to be directed at you? Do you have a guilty conscious?
And let a person that you have assumed so much about teach you something very valuable. Never assume anything, because assumption will make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".


I was not aware that economics in "socialist " countries work any different than the US. Isn't it all about consumer spending at the end of the day?
The current tax system hinders people from "becoming" wealthy, not "being" wealthy.  If you are rich, you don't need much in the way of income and don't pay much in taxes.  The tax system needs to move away from taxing income and tax consumption.  Then, if you live an extravagant lifestyle, you'll pay a larger portion of your wealth in taxes.  We need to revisit the FairTax.
You need to move away from currency altogether than everyone will be equal !
+Leo Pingol . I believe I understand very well. Let's see Leo goes out and creates a business. His products are awesome everyone loves them,but No one has the money to spend on the products. The wealthy are only 5% of the market, Yes you can capture that market and be very well off, but you only need to create enough jobs to support 5% of the population. So your business will have zero growth after a while. Now if you capture 50% of the consumers - the sky is the limit. My point is that in the last 9 years or so most goods have doubled and tripled in price while wages have been going down. Now please explain to me how I don't understand the relationship between businesses and consumers?
Both of these people are the wrong direction
+Ryan Tempura Name 100 people who are "sucking" off the government teet that you personally know.  Can't do it?  Who are all these people? Where do they live?  You might have valid points about taxes, but making a broad conclusion about any subset of our population like that is just disingenuous.  My guess is that you've never spent time in truly terrible circumstances that offer you NO opportunity to better yourself.  Go south of 8 mile in Detroit, or into South LA, or to innumerable locales in New York and you can meet THOUSANDS of people who try to use to government support to become better and fail miserably. And not because they want to fail, but because the amount of support is just so tiny to deal with the challenges being faced.  It's a good idea to never over-brush your strokes of who people are.
Two losers not gonna win keep dreaming
Can we outsource these two to communist china. Let them screw up so e other country.
Crony capitalism is just as bad as socialism
+Ryan Tempura I'm not a Democrat or Republican. I also do not have access to the kool-aide you seem to think.

I am an American and a realist who works hard for a living and it is my opinion that there is a general inability of the government to effect positive change that is good for the majority of Americans, no matter which party is in control. Reagan was the last to effect real positive change.

Your comment on Romney providing "what is legally required" indicates to me that you might be a lawyer or some other type of vulture (or maybe a relative). You are obviously not from Mass. 
Romney is a businessman who knows how to shrink overhead, outsource jobs, get rich and hide his earnings abroad to avoid taxes.
And Obama is a citizen because his mother is. End of that dead horse topic.

I agree that unions have outlived their need, but at the same time what is the Federal gov't if not the largest, highest paid union in the world with the most obscene benefits?
Do I think they need to reduce spending? Of course. They could start in their own budgets.
And I also think there is plenty of waste and fraud that goes on that could be stopped and save Americans millions though those currently swindling the Gov't would cry foul.

This is still America and I have my right to my opinion and you to yours too. For now at least.
The Romney/Ryan wet dream:  100 year tax cut for the rich
+Ryan Tempura . See I told you about assumptions . How do you know how much I make? How do you know if I own one or many small businesses? Or you just can't accept the truth? Or I know what it is. You think that everyone that disagrees with you is on welfare or is a socialist ( according to many of your posts in here. Yeah I read all posts before posting, its called respect)
+Ryan Tempura . Than why do you keep assuming if assumption is not part of the topic? If you can't give everyone the respect they deserve, at least give then the benefit of the doubt. Sorry about many additions to posts Android is not cooperating or maybe it's the Scotch. :)
Aye. I'm an atheist, pro-choice, pro drug legalization, feminist guy with a special place in my heart for science and innovation, but as I feel the economic foundation of this country is more threatened at this time than its civil liberty foundations, I have to side with Obama's opponent. I think with the nation mostly focused on the economy, and since it is in such dire straights, a republican ticket won't have the time to muck up our civil liberties while they try to roll back the damage to the economy.

I have my doubts either way, as Bush spent a lot of time overspending too, but it's a better chance than siding with the fellow who has come right out and said he supports policies that have been tried over the course of the past century across this planet and failed miserably.
+Ryan Tempura . Let me tell you this, if I may. It was outlined in my first post in here. The problem is that we are all concerned about our own asses. Until we come together as people and start working towards the common good we are not going anywhere. I know for a fact that you can succeed in the US regardless of where you come from. But the system is so broken that some people have a better start just because they live in a better school district. Well that's a bunch of BS in my eyes. Because this is not what this country stands for. Just my 2 cents.
Ban politics and religion on G+.
+Ryan Tempura . It needs to start with We the People dropping the partisan bs and owning to our expectations of services provided by the government that all of Us assume are for free and for granted. Than and only than we can hold whoever is in office responsible and start fixing the mess of the debt generated over the last 50 years, because No one party is at fault both parties and the American people are.
The economic mess we are in its from the republican party that put us in 2 wars to do daddys job of bush senior btw whatever happened with the weapons of mass dest. Clinton left a balanced budget and surplus
+Halil Hawkeye . You are correct sir/ madam. The only administration with surplus was Clinton's in the years after WWII.
+Halil Hawkeye +valeri bonchev Clinton left a balanced budget because of the massive digital economic wave (internet), Reagan’s eight year economic plan that set for future prosperity which happened from mid 80's to late 90's, and a republican congress which basically force Clinton to have a balanced budget.  Without congress there can be no budget.

You got a free education today.  Use it.
The reason obama's tax plan didn't work was because congress did not want to pay more taxes cause they where making well over 250,000 dollars and if you ask me it's not such a bad idea. Also obama's health care structure was the same kind Germany has. It works in Germany it can work in the USA but once again congress big headed fat f@&$s chopped it up and passed it and it's all screwed up. People before you bash Obama please do research cause you will find out his plans where good but romneys are garbage and gay why should I pay more taxes when it's gonna take him 27.4 years just to pay one full years worth of taxes. Lose your close mindedness and open up to change Obama can do it as long as big head morons aren't in office
+jeremiah johnson Don't compare Germany with the US.  Do compare Germany with the UK.  Obama is clueless and is a commie.  His tax break is a joke.

You do some research on US health care and why it's the way it is today.  Obama's political party caused this misery back in the 60's and now they have a plan to solve this mess.  Yeah...right.  Reminds me the the housing joke during the 90's and blaming that on the republicans of today.  Ignorance kills....
PAul Ryan will run the show , Romney is another Bush. Cheney told Bush what to do. 
Awesome choice for Romney 2012. Vote strong for conservative beliefs.
What if the financial wizard becomes the investment coach for each taxpayer? We get a tax relief and give it to him for investment . We'll become so rich that we will all enjoy the benefits of being taxed at the capital gains rates, no one will have to work and get paid - we will all invest and make profits and pay low taxes. The employment rate will be high; the return on investment rate will be spectacular. For if the head of country hardly made an income but became amazingly wealthy - why should we work - Let's all invest. 
Ryan you must hate union members why because most ppl who work enjoy a 5 day with 40 hours health benefits and labor laws your remind me a supervisor who told me why do.your guys always complain.I replied if you never would breach the contract we wouldn't you sound like a lawyer who say he only broke the law because he dumb to the cop aka union who say he wouldn't be in jail if he didn't break the law and I see your not hiring and your so called thing.on business.never.answered my question I told you in nyc.the money and capital to be middle class you have to make as a single person about 80 k a family would have to make about 125k so tell me how much you think you pay a employee not I.Colorado and second guess your not hiring college.grads
I'm just a dumb small business owner who actually promotes my company as opposed to hiding behind the vague moniker of "self employed". It's true, as well, that I've gained more from the proverbial "school of hard knocks" but would rather admit I have an exhorbitantly expensive four year degree in the soft science of Anthropology. I don't employ just three individuals at remarkably high salaries, giving me little to bitch about, as anyone earning nearly 100k does so as a 1099 (it's their tax burden not mine). Those who do earn a wage earn much smaller compensations yet ironically they pay for themselves. I have a talented team of attorneys, financial advisors, and accountants that are creative thinkers, like myself, and as such we can wweather any change to our benefit. That said...even with 9% unemployment that means 91% are employed! How the fuck is over 90% bad?! But then again, I'm just a dumb small business owner...btw, I don't give two shits about being in the 1%. I know what I need to be content and save for my future and my children's future while enjoying my time on this planet. And, it doesn't take more than a quarter million a year for the rest of my life to accomplish it. Anything in excess is superfluous for my needs.
Theodore what loophole I need some because.I'm paying more then my CEO pay about what 1000k a month in rent for a studio apt and in nyc that's a bargin show me something I didn't learn in school and my account don't otherwise your a in the words of matlock a jackass and Adam have nice glass of stfu you hate unions tell.your boss its ok not to get a raise and take a pay cut matter of fact have your kids work at age 12 like they did before unions helped improve the workplace you no benefit from your a moron and to be anti union is anti american you traitor
I just looked at Ryan comments and they speak of elitist and lost respect for you rush Limbaugh Jr. Hmmm if you did research on the most ppl on welfare they tend to be Mormons who have multi kids and not enough to pay them all don't give me a government answer because my father and a union vp of dc37 meets with other unions of Welfare caseworkers across the country he tells me who most likely on welfare which pays a lot less then minimum wage like I.said if you want to help hire instead of criticize them
The truth is that Romney-Ryan ticket is fallacy. The only thing I think they can do is to stop government investment programs like social security, Medicare, allow employers to fire people so they can make more money, give more tax breaks to people like Romney and the supporters of Paul Ryan while reducing the number of service to the middle class and the poor. This is just gonna make this country look like a third world countries where wealth is concentrated in the hands of few (lucky politicians and the rich who can influence their reelection). Romney has no idea how the finances of this country look like. How are going to pay our dept without increasing the income by taxing the rich at least the percentage as the middle class? How is Romney going to get away if he doesn't pay the entitlements due to the deceased Afghanistan and Iraq veterans? I am also curious about how you can create more jobs when you support sending jobs overseas, reducing the number of public workers?
+kien spicer. You claimed you paid $11k on $18k income. If you did in fact pay that amount, either you did your taxes wrong, or you need a different tax preparer.

For four years I've heard nothing from the Democrats about how the Republicans are the "Party of Fear". Yet, you're here taking up the argument that Republicans want to bring back slavery, repeal child labor laws. I've heard arguments that Republicans want to "round up all the gays and exterminate them, concentration camp style". Even Allan Grayson stood on the House floor and claimed Republicans wanted old people to "just die". The Democrats have nothing to run on but fear, class warfare, and demagoguery. It has become such a talking point by the media, people like you actually believe it. Joseph Goebbels would be proud of the modern day Democrat. He said, “If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth. ”

(I know you don't know who he is, so Google him.)
Is Romney embarrassed by his Mexican background? Just curious .
+kien spicer. Detroit, Michigan, the Post Office and the American automobile industry........................truely a salute to the "success" of unionization!!!! 
+Bill Saunders +Ryan Tempura.

Obamacare: Ten million benefiting and 290,000,000 million suffering from added deficits, increased premiums, and crippling regulations.14,000,000 continue to be unemployed, but at least 10,000,000 can see their doctor before he quits the industry.
+Theodore Barkley That could be true. The new republican agenda could bring a diffrent form of slavery. Slave masters were used to not paying their workers. Now that they have to pay them, they are taking the jobs overseas where they can freely exploit their workers who have laws to protect them against abuse (just like in hold style capitalism). Remember slavery started because the same people wanted free labor!
+Ouro Koumai. Jobs are going oversea because the labor unions have priced American Labor right out of the market, and government regulations that are outright hostile. (is it just me, are does anyone else find it absolutely ridiculous to pay $84 and hour to have someone change my oil and rotate the tires?)

It has nothing to do with greed and everything to do with business survival.
+Ryan Tempura What makes you think you deserve the care and the poor does not? You stance on the issue is irrational. Remember, it is an offer and demand issue. If there more work for doctors, more people will go to medical schools.
Taking jobs overseas is UnAmerican. And someone who practice that should not seek a post to be our leader. I would do anything for America. I am supprised some of you support those coward whose only concern is more benefits after all what this country allowed them to do.
+Ryan Tempura, not really much of a kool aid drinker. I've sipped from the red and from the blue a bit as I've sought my course and I'll admit to liking what's written on the blue package a little more (turns out the actual drink isn't much like what's advertised). But honestly I have very little faith in either of our parties or our system these days. It just riles me up to hear a bunch of conservative talking points about fiscal responsibility when the "conservative" party has never really been very fiscally responsible.

Our country is in a weird and divided predicament where we appear to be doing something more akin to pulling for a sports team than trying to figure out how to govern by consensus. We're finding it increasingly difficult to see the gray between the black and white. Government isn't supposed to be an evil detached entity way over there somewhere. It's a contract between you and I detailing the best way to achieve a strong society. A healthy and vibrant citizenry.

My issue is that I feel like the Republican party is increasingly distancing itself from certain basic ideas that are important to me as a citizen. They're far afield on social issues and this move towards ultra conservatism with its desire to dismantle government in all it's forms is a loser in my mind. A lot of our government is there for a reason, because we came from bad places and learned that certain checks were in order. And if we want a fully active citizenry we have to make sure that we can keep as many people in the race as possible if they're willing to run. Sure government can get a little bloated and systems may become mo dysfunctional over time. But you clean them up, reform them. Not throw them out. We don't stop wearing clothes just because they got dirty yesterday. We wash them, because clothes are a good idea!

At the end of the day, I'm perfectly happy with my middle class life. But I want to make sure others have a chance to get here too. And I sit and watch as we cut taxes in an effort to starve government agencies and then set our hair on fair about the debt. It's all backwards. And I also sit and watch my middle class life move further and further behind what my parents and grand parents middle class life was like. I keep seeing GDP go up but watch our salaries stagnate, education costs sky rocketing, health care too, along with the price of goods. And for all the talk about social mobility, the biggest determinant of your financial trajectory in this country is what your parents' income was. As a general rule of course, I understand that you came from nothing and made a great life for yourself and I applaud that. It is very awesome. But not every hard worker gets ahead, it's just not true.

We have to figure out a way to come together on some of this stuff. We need more gray, ya know?
Less taxes for the rich is just what we need! Have you forgotten the 8 years when W was president and how that screwed the economy. Rich people have no clue what main street America goes through daily to make ends meet and they don't have to I guess. Uncaring, uncompassionate and unable to have a clue.
+Ryan Tempura Some children are born without parents, some come from poor families. If we take care of them, they might be fit one day to serve in our military, play sports and participate in Olympics for our glorious nation. We might be able to help people to grow healthy, think better and better themselves for a stronger America. Look, i personally can handle myself. I have never used any service for free in this country, not even primary, secondary education etc. I own a home, don't have children but still pay all the taxes so American children can go to schools for free, so some people you can get federal aid for college. For a better America, we have to make sure everyone is given a chance to grow and better themselves. By doing so, we might be able to reduce crime, etc.
+Ouro Koumai: "Some children are born without parents."

Derp. Winner of the most retarded post of the thread.
Do Mormon's even support Romney?
Jon.if you want me to.shut up please nyc anytime and make me.I be glad to permanently stop you from talking with my fist Ryan your moron again I'll trust my father who works in the system like you said street smarts then a troll like you ,.third funny thing about what up you learn like in Alabama during the bush era you got taxes more then a millionaire if you made over 9k a year and go to my old college.classmates some.still waiting on the trinkle down from.bush and one a state trooper who almost didn't get the job after a republican budget cut. But gave atax break to a company that wants to expand in India
Ops I meant paid more in taxes please excuse my auto speller on my android
+Ryan Tempura (Its worse than trying to have a conversation with someone with Touretts. At first you want to laugh, but in the end, you really feel sad.)
Your logic of tax the rich is more class warfare propaganda, if people are penalized for making money then they won't try to make it and they won't spend it, like on the boat your friend bought, had to come from somewhere? Somebody got paid to build it, maintain it etc, furthermore our friends to the north Canada, is doing pretty well and their corporate tax rate is 15% unlike ours which is 35% so maybe if our government would cut spending and reform the tax code to spur growth we'll be able to afford the 100 million people that receive government payments like social security and disability and Obamacare and we will be able to pay for the stupid wars we wage and not borrow the money from china.
+Ryan Tempura , the flaw in your logic regarding this free market is that though these are American companies, all of the manufacturing jobs that used to go to the middle class in this country are now in sweatshops in the far east.  So much for "free market".  It is simply capitalism being driven by a consumerist society,  We want all of these new toys and technologies, but aren't willing to pay the premium price it would take to make them here. And that is what is killing this country, no more middle-class = no more American dream for most of the country.
Well its not new bcos if u look at d whole idea romney is only following republicans policy remember their aguement againt obama tax bill for d rich
There's no way Mitt Romney will win this election. He pretty much said goodbye to his Florida votes by picking Paul Ryan...
Sry I hate to but only reason mitt romney picked Paul Ryan is because he'll be able to benefit him in his taxes...smh.
Well, Florida has a high amount of seniors and those seniors aren't going to like his plan to pretty much get rid of Medicare. It's like shooting yourself in the foot. I expect them to avoid medicare questions completely.
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