A realization that I recently came to while discussing the whole systemd controversy with some friends at the Collab Summit is that a lot of the fear and uncertainty over systemd may not be so much about systemd, but the fear and loathing over radical changes that have been coming down the pike over the past few years, many of which have been not well documented, and worse, had some truly catastrophic design flaws that were extremely hard to fix. For example, I still have the following magic installed in /etc/polkit-1/localauthority/50-local.d/dont-bug-me.pka:
[Don't Bug Me]
Identity=unix-group:sudo
Action=*
ResultActive=yes
I added this because Network Manager insisted on popping up a window and asking me to type my password whenever I tried joining a new network. And figuring out how to make Network Manager not do such a brain-damaged thing was so painful, that after going through reams of poorly documented XML schemas, and 50 language translations interspersed with actual configuration in various XML files, I just gave up and used the Big Hammer to make policykit just Completely Go Away.
I could tell similar horror stories about dbus when I had to debug various suspend/resume failures, which is something else which is similarly opaque and impossible to understand, but the point is that many of these failures have caused many people to want simple shell scripts, instead of having to crawl through badly designed XML schemas, or someone else's complex C or C++ code, just to figure out what the hell they did and how to patch around their design fail.
It's not entirely fair to charge all of this to Systemd's account, but I think one of the reasons why this happens is because +Kay Sievers and +Lennart Poettering often have the same response style to criticisms as the +GNOME developers --- go away, you're clueless, we know better than you, and besides, we have commit privs and you don't, so go away.
That being said, I recently did try moving my laptop to systemd, and I was pleasantly surprised by the Debian's integration --- it didn't blow away my rsyslog configuration, or do any number of a things that I'm worried about. +GNOME may start depending on more and more of systemd's features, and thus make it even harder to configure away its design failings, but that's +GNOME's problem, not systemd. And besides, this is why I'm using XFCE and not GNOME. :-)
I do find it very difficult sometimes to figure out why a particular systemd service gets started, and when I tried putting together a battery target which would automatically shut down various daemons that I don't need when I want to save power, it apparently somehow caused the brightness keys (fn-F5 and fn-F6) to mysteriously stop working --- and as I expected, it was impossible to debug. So instead of using a systemd target, I'll just hack together a shell script that runs the necessary "service <foo> stop" instead of using a systemd target. If things start breaking horribly, I'll file debian bugs, and try to find ways to work around the brain damage. The fact that I won't be able to edit shell scripts to work around brain damage is still a little anxiety-producing, and the fact it's much more difficult to create a runlevel which is "just like runlevel 3 but without certain services running" is unfortunate, but I'll give it a try and see how much pain is involved.
At least with Debian, it's relatively easy (at least at this point) to roll back to sysvinit if systemd proves to be intolerable. I figure I might as well try it now before I'm forced off of sysvinit and then discover all of the things that break and which can't be easily worked around.
[Don't Bug Me]
Identity=unix-group:sudo
Action=*
ResultActive=yes
I added this because Network Manager insisted on popping up a window and asking me to type my password whenever I tried joining a new network. And figuring out how to make Network Manager not do such a brain-damaged thing was so painful, that after going through reams of poorly documented XML schemas, and 50 language translations interspersed with actual configuration in various XML files, I just gave up and used the Big Hammer to make policykit just Completely Go Away.
I could tell similar horror stories about dbus when I had to debug various suspend/resume failures, which is something else which is similarly opaque and impossible to understand, but the point is that many of these failures have caused many people to want simple shell scripts, instead of having to crawl through badly designed XML schemas, or someone else's complex C or C++ code, just to figure out what the hell they did and how to patch around their design fail.
It's not entirely fair to charge all of this to Systemd's account, but I think one of the reasons why this happens is because +Kay Sievers and +Lennart Poettering often have the same response style to criticisms as the +GNOME developers --- go away, you're clueless, we know better than you, and besides, we have commit privs and you don't, so go away.
That being said, I recently did try moving my laptop to systemd, and I was pleasantly surprised by the Debian's integration --- it didn't blow away my rsyslog configuration, or do any number of a things that I'm worried about. +GNOME may start depending on more and more of systemd's features, and thus make it even harder to configure away its design failings, but that's +GNOME's problem, not systemd. And besides, this is why I'm using XFCE and not GNOME. :-)
I do find it very difficult sometimes to figure out why a particular systemd service gets started, and when I tried putting together a battery target which would automatically shut down various daemons that I don't need when I want to save power, it apparently somehow caused the brightness keys (fn-F5 and fn-F6) to mysteriously stop working --- and as I expected, it was impossible to debug. So instead of using a systemd target, I'll just hack together a shell script that runs the necessary "service <foo> stop" instead of using a systemd target. If things start breaking horribly, I'll file debian bugs, and try to find ways to work around the brain damage. The fact that I won't be able to edit shell scripts to work around brain damage is still a little anxiety-producing, and the fact it's much more difficult to create a runlevel which is "just like runlevel 3 but without certain services running" is unfortunate, but I'll give it a try and see how much pain is involved.
At least with Debian, it's relatively easy (at least at this point) to roll back to sysvinit if systemd proves to be intolerable. I figure I might as well try it now before I'm forced off of sysvinit and then discover all of the things that break and which can't be easily worked around.
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systemd is not very Unixy. Then again, neither is X11. I ought to be able to pipe something into an X program, and then pipe its output into something else. Why NOT have a version of 'tr' which, if you give it no parameters, pops up an X dialog that lets you specify the parameters using point-and-click. Presumably this is a helper program whose invoker prints "tr: two strings must be given when translating" if the helper cannot be found because this machine or session doesn't have X.
Or for that matter, if I'm running a pipe from a terminal that takes "too long", and X is available, then it can pop up a completion display. It's ... it's ... it's ... like design of the shell stopped when X started.Aug 26, 2014
+Erick Mendoza so you know it sounds silly, but you're okay with the repeating the conspiracy theory you just described?Dec 1, 2014- The idea behind systemd and the like is to move from the traditional paradigm of the user being in control of the machine which *nix and mostly free os's and software made it possible to a new one in which AI take over some of the control from humans. Surely the fact the design is so much more complicated for humans to understand is in the new paradigm a design feature geared towards automation. Ceding the human will to automation and more broadly to AI in general is what things are getting at in technology in general as things are getting more and more complex and more and more integrated and linked between them. These certainly could lead to more issues than it could fix, namely the ones that Elon Musk has tried to bring to public attention related to AI getting out of control.May 1, 2015
- +TheodoreTso
I'm neutral, but I see systemd as an improvement to systemv.
Why so much ranting? Why not developers fork, submit patches or make an alternative that doesn't get abandoned after some time?
https://plus.google.com/103173492651809155609/posts/jLJH6PAA748
System XVI/ServiceManager
https://github.com/ServiceManager/ServiceManagerJan 8, 2016
Nice necropost +timofonic timofonicJan 8, 2016- I know, I'm sorry. But I didn't know how to share my humble and very probably ignorant opinion about the topic. I'm also terribly bad at social networks, they are very confusing to me.
I'm just curious and a bit sad about certain attitudes. I would love a lot more collaboration instead separation, even between Linux and BSD.
I'l a novice electronics student. In the past there was geda, but they fight and fork all time instead sane collaboration. Fortunately, KiCad is skyrocketing in development.
I would love to see the same in the UNIX world: Init systems, file systems, distributed computing, whatever.mJan 8, 2016
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