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"Look, there are a lot of conservatives in the Republican caucus in the House who hate the bill — and for good reason. I mean, this is a complete surrender on everything. The ratio of tax cuts — of tax hikes to spending cuts — is 40 to 1, rather than 1 to 1 or 1 to 2 or 1 to 3. So, I mean it’s a complete rout by the Democrats. So it’s understandable.”
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Margaret Leber's profile photoHugh Pecon's profile photoNate Mills's profile photoDon Culp's profile photo
72 comments
 
Spoken like a true non-taxpayer. Well, this is how Obama gets to go to the mat with Cantor on the debt limit instead of Mr Nice Guy
 
I have to believe I pay more in taxes than 90% of most folks Margaret. I just don't spend my life whining about it. I can well afford to pay my share and kick in a little extra when my country needs help. As far as going to the mat with Cantor, I'm sure the President is staying up nights worrying about that.
Mike Ma
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What ratio?  In terms of current annual revenue?  Projected over 10 years?  Quantity of cuts versus revenue?  

This wasn't a real victory for either side.  It delayed (again) the main issues for a couple months.  The real losers of course are Americans and our children.  

I did like WB comment on ending the deficit in 5 minutes.  "...anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress would be in-eligible for re-election."  That would fix it.  :)
 
Right Joe.  Paying more in taxes to fund more waste and entitlements is so much better than investing it into jobs and business.
 
Joe Wooten I'm glad you think its good to volunteer my money for your Utopian dreams. Sorry if I'm a little upset that congress gave itself a raise in the countries time of need. 
 
Look , a little recent history is in order. In Dec 2008 we sat with a failing banking system, a failing auto industry and housing market. We also had the highest unemployment claims in that month, in 26 years! We have slowly recovered. The banks are sound, the auto industry is going well, the housing market is finally recovering. We are out of one of two very expensive wars. The ONLY problem we have experienced is the NUT CASES distracting Americans from getting back to business dealings due to delays, media hype etc. This "huge tax increase" on the rich is , and never was more than returning to the 2003 rates before BUSH cut them in line with the expiration of the bill as intended at that time. in the second quarter of 1978, the GNP (used then instead of GDP) was up 15%. The top tax rate then? 70%. We need a lot of changes but Congress has held up this country for two years now and finally people can move on. Its not these policy issues its the paralysis from uncertainty. That is why the stock market was up last trading sesssion and is up big today. Do you think people with Obamaphones are calling in stock orders? NO, its the relief from the well to do that DC actually got this mess out of the way.
 
Id also like to point out that people should figure out the value of the US energy reserves based on current findings. ITs in the many many trillions of dollars. IF we play our cards right this might be the biggest boom since the Post WW2 period. And the stock market "climbs a wall of worry" with the worryworts out of the way, just watch what happens..
 
Martin Adamo That's a pretty picture you dreamed up. Please close your eyes really tight and pretend that the 16 trillion in deficit spending won't hurt our future. Assume that the baby boomers won't over whelm the social security, medicare, and Obama care. Pretend like they'll be enough big bad evil rich people to cover the psychotic debt we are going to hit. 
 
Sorry to say, but by definition anyone who reads the DC is a hack or doesn't know the score. It is one of a number of "right wing echo chambers" that repeat the same biased talking points over and over again in the hopes of making them into "news".  It has little or nothing to do with reporting or journalism, but more to do with money given by billionaires and the Heritage Foundation for spreading propaganda. 
 
Let's start the cuts by cutting congress pay and  expenses by 50%
That would be a start!!
 
+Spencer Scott After twelve years of the Bush tax cuts (which were meant to give the "job creators" the ability to create new jobs), where are the jobs?  Taxes are at an all time low.  Yet, the "job creators" haven't created very many new jobs - unless you consider all the jobs that were created in China, India, and Taiwan.

Under Clinton's tax structure, 22 million new jobs were created in 8 years.  Under the Bush tax structure, only 3 million new jobs were created in 8 years.  Need I say more? 
 
Which, +Craig Issod,  makes it totally unlike HuffPo or TPM (the name says it) or DemUnderground or DailyKos or ThinkProgress or MMfA... because none of them are funded by billionaires.

Oh, wait...

Actually they are different, because their billionaires will profit from the wreckage of the USD. Golly, Soros has made a career out of manipulating currencies; wrecking them while betting against them. The USD will be the capstone of his career.

Sadly, we can't all live out the rest of our lives selling wood stoves to hippies in Maine, which is what people who "know the score" are doing.
 
+Raymond DeVirgiliis Funny, when you spend money without having a budget, things tend to get out of control. The Dem Senate won't do that because they'd have to say "no" to somebody. 
 
+Joe Wooten Considering how many folks aren't paying taxes at all, paying more than most is pretty small ball. I have my own opinions about what my country is and what it needs... your collectivist feel-good BS is nothing like that. 
 
Only fools listen to bankster puppets.
 
I am already over-taxed, but I would have much preferred tumbling over the "Fiscal Cliff" to continuing this insanity.  A responsible president wouldn't agree to sign any bill that doesn't address paying down our debt instead of just decreasing the amount of shortfall.  Obama should insist that congress hammers out a bill that includes tax increases and spending cuts that would realistically cause America to be debt-free in 20 years.  Without such a bill, he needs to keep his pen in his pocket.
 
Well, we know what Obama's idea of "balanced" is now.

Like we didn't before. 
 
I can't believe we haven't cut spending more.  The idea that we need more spending is ludicrous.  I wish the government would get their house in order.  Clearly, we have a spending problem...you can only increase revenues so much before you have to realize that we need to go through the line items.

The cliff would have been bad, but at least it would have actually addressed the issue of over-spending.  Obama is willing to keep on kicking the can down the road...that scares me.
 
elaborate on this 40 to 1 nonsense
 
Obama has no intention of cutting spending...that's where he gets his power from, spending other people's money and giving it to his clients: government employees and dependents, unions, and eco-cronies. He cares about the deficit only as an excuse to raise taxes. 

He's a patronage-fueled old-school Chicago pol with a New Left veneer.  
 
As to my collectivist vision for America Margaret, I at least understand that it is better to reign in hell than be chained in heaven. Take a good look around at the world you live in, if you think I'm full of BS take a little trip around the planet and see just how bad you really have it here. And while you're at it, go on one your sad diatribes where people have no clue when they will eat again.
 
No I meant more the math behind the 40 to 1 ratio.
 
+Joe Wooten It doesn't take a trip around the planet to know you can't spend money you don't have. If we listen to you and your friends, pretty soon we can all be just as badly off as the rest of the world, which is of course the end game of...

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. --Winston Churchill 
 
Go back and check the tax rates in the 60's---80's they ran from 91% to 70% on $300,000.00 today's top rates are 35%
 
Go back and check the spending. And the loopholes. 

In fact over time the percentage of GDP collectable as taxes has been amazingly constant no matter what the rates are.

And nothing you to to the tiny number of people at that income level will make even a scratch in the debt. It's a total class-warfare red herring. 
 
Albert, the "tax cuts" pulled us out of the clinton recession and bubbles that were created.  Lower taxes have always produced more revenue, which in turn gives more money to the government.  Raising taxes in an economy that is already horrible is just plain stupid.  Or as we say, just another day in Obama land.

You guys have no absolutely no clue and can't explain how higher taxes on "the rich", and btw, "rich" isn't people making $400K a year.  
 
If we're not demanding a dismantling of the federal budget, we're just arranging deck chairs.  They would have been better served to offer a budget at 1/2 the current rate of spending, and tell him to take it or leave it.

Instead, they played democrats. Spend, spend, spend.
 
+Spencer Scott 8x the median salary in this country isn't considered rich? It's a little ridiculous that people making $400k are considered the same class as people floating right above the poverty line. Tax rates should rise as you make more money in order to keep the amount of burden equal among the classes.
 
People making $400K are already paying more than someone at the poverty line.  In fact, the ones near the poverty line aren't paying federal taxes along with people with higher income.

Regardless, higher taxes don't solve anything.
 
Again, $16T in debt going to be well over $20T in several years.  Trillion dollar a year deficits......raising taxes doesn't even dent it.

Entitlements and spending are the problem.
 
+Andrew Stone There's too damn many people who "don't work at all", and more of them every day, and Obama like it that way because they are his fan base.

You're claiming mandatory auto insurance and user fees are taxes, and then calling me ignorant?  You've been smoking too much Obamacare rationalization. Libtard blocked. 
 
The libs are calling in all their friends to come troll here again. Based on profiles, a fair number of them are Obama backers/Occupants who hope he's going to forgive their student loans.

Because otherwise they're screwed.
 
Sounds like "ignorant" is the new lefty epithet, maybe they finally wore out "racist".
 
What are all these kids with useless degrees going to do when the EBT cards won't buy them lunch anymore? Because that's where we're headed: no jobs and a useless, debased currency.

All because they re-elected Santa Claus. 
 
Going on Obama's second term, and unemployment is worse, debt/deficit is worse, and they still manage to blame everyone but Obama.  LOL.
 
James Marcel, Im not dreaming. People lose track of what happened in recent years. We spent nearly 2 trillion on the war, we cut taxes on rich people, we do have major issues but we have the best economy in the world, and we have started to tap our own oil and gas and that will continue to explode. The other thing is we cut public employment by 800,000 jobs under Obama. By contrast the public sector grew 1.5 million jobs under Bush. This is setting things up nicely. There are always things to worry about but if things were so very bad, who is buying the stocks? poor people with obamaphones? Come on. By the time you catch on the market will be twice what it is now. All we need is cooperation in DC. And from BOTH sides. I happen to like the GOP idea of the indexing of social security. This type of thing was used in a bipartisan way in Colorado on the state level. By limiting pension and other benefit growth to 1 percent from 3% they shave 20% off future spending over 10 years. Good ideas on both sides, we just dont need the media hype and the people thinking the world will end.
 
As for Lib Trolls - Im a business owner. I only posted here because I received an update on my screen that someone I follow posted here or something like that. I am pretty much in the middle. But to be honest you cant crater an economy, bailout the big boys, cut taxes for rich people, double the deficit and fight two trillion dollar wars and get my vote. Much of what people critical of those who like the President think is just repeated Fox News garbage or at best half-true. 10 trillion of the 16 trillion in deficit (accumulated deficit not annual) was in place before OBama took office. 1.2 trillion of "Obamas deficit" was lower tax revenues from the Bush near Depression.. Another huge amount was spent fighting wars that he never started. We start making good choices, develop our energy reserves and we are well on our way..
 
We cut "public employment" under Obama only because states and municipalities are going bankrupt right and left. 

The number of federal employees has risen under President Obama. There were 2,790,000 federal workers in January 2009 when the president took office, and now there are 2,804,000 workers. The fact is that there is no month during President Obama’s term when the federal workforce was smaller than it was in the first month of Mr. Obama’s presidency. The president took over in January 2009. Every month after January 2009 has seen more federal workers than were employed in January 2009.
 
"Who is buying stocks?"

Do we really have to tell a CPA that? It's certainly not the retail investor anymore. 
 
Martin Adamo The problem is the class warfare. That genie does not go back into that bottle, easily. Morally I have a problem with taxes because the people earned it. It's taken by force by the government. The argument is the rich needs to pay their fair share. That's a horrible stand.The problem is not there is a taxing problem. There is a spending problem. They've already spent more money than we can possibly pay back. They forced more rich people to pay and increased spending at the same time. If they would actually make real cuts, we would have some possibility of a future. Every committee that looked at this said we have cut. Every time this comes up, the POTUS demands next time. When the F**k will there be a groan up in our government? We want all of everybody else money, and our kids can pay for it.  
 
God, the guy is still playing "blame Bush". And claiming "I"m not a lib troll, I'm a business owner" when in fact as a CPA he makes more money the bigger and more complex the tax code is.

I've heard enough. 
 
+Spencer Scott The rich already pay more, but more what? More money or a higher percentage? If the rich and the poor paid the same percentage, it wouldn't be fair. For example, let's say everyone paid 25%. A person earning $30k would pay over $7k in taxes, leaving them below the poverty line. A person making $400k would pay $100k in taxes, leaving them left with more money than anyone would ever need to keep themselves and their entire family comfortable. That's why the bottom and lower-middle classes need breaks and why richer people should have higher rates.

Also contributing to the problem is the rich belief that they deserve what they earn. They think they work proportionally harder for the larger amount of money they make. In reality, nobody on this planet works thousands, hundreds, or even dozens times harder than anyone else. For instance, I'd say a busboy works several times harder than an executive of an ad agency.
 
I give up. Margaret is obviously the giant "Tool" she espouses to be.
 
I get taxes deducted out of my paycheck twice a month and get a couple hundred back from the government when tax day comes around because I pay off $7800 in student loan debt every year. I guess I'm one of the people who pay no taxes, right?
 
There's so much disinformation in this thread, it beggars belief. The people who choose their arguments, their partial arguments and the numbers to justify them to fit their politics instead of the facts are practicing intellectual dishonesty and are so transparent, I doubt they even believe themselves. I hope you see you are part of the problem and not part of the solution. I suppose we should be looking to Smith's "invisible hand" to gauge what investors think.
 
+Martin Adamo People who really, really believe that what happened yesterday was a bad thing should put their money where their mouths are and short the market. They should make a killing. And if they don't, well, the kindest way to describe them is "insincere"!
 
Sure, play with Uncle Ben's funny helicopter money in the casino some more. The student loan bubble is bigger than the stock market bubble anyway. 

I shorted the stock market over a year ago by getting out of it altogether, it's a joke. 
 
In 2011 US Corporations had all time record profits. That is all time in the history of the United States profits. Not bad for the "communist , socialist, born in Kenya" President. Bottom line is what is good for the middle class is good for America. The stock market goes up because wealthy people feel confident in the direction of things. Corporations are also raising dividends. That is what makes stocks go up. Lets see we have over half the US population supporting Obama, in the worldwide vote, only Pakistan would have voted for Romney and his ideas (see google for that one), and somehow this tiny percentage of people who talk about "kool-aid" and other stuff know it all.
 
We have housing recovering , manufacturing recovering, automakers doing well, corps with record profits, energy reserves we never knew we had coming online every day and somehow the whole world is going to end because a few rich people (many of whom dont mind paying a little extra tax) are paying the same rates they paid in 2003, give me a break
 
Why did they go over the "cliff". It looked more like a speed bump!?!
 
Housing recovery? What reports are you reading? GNMA is still buying up no-doc REMs at a staggering rate. Pushing things into the future only makes them more costly. 
 
Poverty line people not paying taxes! But what about all the little hidden taxes? Employers carry unemployment taxes, ss taxes, even things like cell phones carry a 40% tax, a decade ago the Economist figure that taxes in western culture countries are about 75% to 80%. I think we are still there...
 
+Margaret Leber It has been a good three years from an investor's point of view. Hopefully, you were able to benefit from 2010 and 2011 if not 2012. Not participating in the market is not the same as shorting it though.
 
The Feds are under A Democles Sword situation, but they can never give the seat back to the king!
 
Investment: in 2000 the Dow was 10,000. 3% annual inflation brings the Dow to 13,900 in 2013. Where are we now?
 
Robert, you are being deliberately obtuse. My comment clearly refers to the last three years, and is directed at Margaret's comment about "shorting" by exiting the market. It is regrettable for anyone who bought into the tech bubble, or the housing bubble - I did not, but you can't lay either of those against the current administration.
 
Many good money managers advise that investors balance their assets between the different asset classes, not only in equities, and not only in the domestic market, and rebalance periodically. Investors who follow that advice would have been quite successful even through both bubble crashes.
 
Now that the senate has passed the tax legislation necessary, and the repuke obstructionists in the house  helped pass it,  the radical cracked teanuts in congress can get back to their main goals--
Ban abortion, Ban contraceptives, Have biblical fairy tale Creationism taught in all schools as a true science, Force women to have vaginal ultrasounds and provide AK47s with 30 round clips for all teachers.
These are the true goals of the right wing pathetic, psychotic, braindead radical cracked teanut dopes and their bosses Groper Nutquist, John (town crier) Bonehead and the NRA.
Can you imagine what might have happened if the Pope's boy Rick the Dick Sanitarium became V.P. under lyin Willardo, the Mexican Mormon Moron tax evading draft dodger, of the right wing radical cracked teanuts, the gay, rapist, pedophile catholic priests and the braindead evangelical nuts that listen to them. Men will no longer have to purchase condoms, as they will no longer be allowed in this country. All mens sperm must be used to create babies. Cameras will be in every bedroom. Catholic priests don't have to worry however, because, according to the testimony of former raped little boys, they don't use them.
The Pope's first order to his boy would be to release all catholic rapist pediophile priests from prison as the Pope is running out of people to continue the process of shearing his sheep. He is running out of collection pot fillers. After all, he needs the money to fight off all of the lawsuits against the church worldwide.
His second order to RickyDickyDo would be to move the White House to Vatican City.
 
It was too bad that Harold Camping did not succeed in taking away the base of the repuke dunce party.
Harold Camping, the evangelical king, got 500,000 of these pathetic radical right wing braindead evangelical Children of the Corn zombies to give up all of their worldly possessions to go meet and stay with the man in the sky. They are so easily brainwashed. Camping, considered the evangelical king by many because of his 50 year history of bible study, promised to take away these right wing bible nuts on the last Rapture Day on Oct 21, 2011. All of his calculations were based on "biblical facts" When it did not work, he then realized that the bible in most part is "pulp fiction".
Yet these braindead fools continue to believe that there are men and boys with wings on flying around blowing horns.
The only thing to do to cure these zombies is to send them all back to the Garden of Eden on Noah's Ark to start over again, unless of course, they fall off the end of the flat earth.
These braindead idiots would still be believing in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, if their parents did not tell them otherwise.
Many of them still believe that the earth is flat and that dinosaurs never existed and that republicans are going to help them. It is all a liberal conspiracy.
 
Why lyin Willardo, the Mexican Mormon Moron tax evading draft dodger lost the election.
All pathetic, psychotic, braindead right wing radical cracked teanut dopes should have listened to your leaders. They warned you about the Mexican Mormon Moron tax evading draft dodger during the primaries when they were able to tell he truth about this moron.
Lyin Willardo, the Mexican Mormon Moron tax evader, bankrupter, draft dodger, job outsourcer and Etch A Sketch Champion may have vision of going back home to Mexico.
All braindead pathetic right wing radical cracked teanuts should listen to your leaders in the future.
Rick the Dick Santarium had brainwashed his followers, the evangelicals and the gay rapist, pedophile catholic priests that lyin' Willardo is a member of an evil cult and is the anti-christ. He also told them that lyin Willardo is the worst person in history to ever run for the presidency, can't be trusted and will destroy our country. Groper Nutquist, the boss of the right wing cracked teanuts and Nut Gingerhead, the criminal lobbyist, totally agreed with the last three assessments.
So most of the evangelical sheep  probably stayed home on election day or many may even have voted for Obama. They were totally scared to death of lyin Willardo, the Mexican Mormon Moron tax evader, bankrupter, job outsourcer, draft dodger and Etch A Sketch champion.
If this repuke draft dodger ever became president, and war broke out in the middle east, he will be putting his dog on the top of his car and fleeing to his birthplace in Tijuana and hide in one of his 4 grandmammy's (pappy's side only) outhouses.
 
Actually this is a minor issue since if nothing was done, the tax rates for EVERYONE would revert back to their statutory rates, which means that there will no longer be tax payer subsidies. You see, these tax breaks, also called subsidies are in fact an expense in accounting terms. The government has to borrow money to make up the difference between what we are supposed to take in and what we are actually taking in. So when you take that income tax deduction, for each deduction you take, the government has to borrow to make up the difference. I know it sounds screwy, but it is so and for good reason. How about this instead of the mortgage interest deduction, why not simplify matters by allowing for a zero tax on capital gains when you sell it. NO PAPERWORK and the government does not have to subsidize your deduction. I mean, are you buying a home to own or for the tax deduction? Give me a break.

Personally, I would have rather have gone off the cliff and finally deal with all the separate issues involved. Then we can get down to really fixing government spending and income. 
 
+Margaret Leber Yes! Thank you for watching. It's people like you who help support and foster creativity who really enhance our cultural landscape.
 
+Edward Alan Bartholomew Dork child.

Who the hell are you, son, to decide who "already has enough money"?

At your $7,500/yr, it will take you twelve years (assuming published Rutgers tuition for five years, ordinary student loan rates, and steady work as a copy editor -- questionable) to pay off got that highly marketable English Literature degree. 

I think your qualifications to make financial decisions for the rest of us are on painful display. 

Cultural landscape, my ass. Somehow we managed to have a "cultural landscape" in the US before we had government subsidies for it. Go write a poem or something. Or just "lay in bed and read". Blocked.
 
Margaret you are right about one thing, the retail investor. He/She is not in the market. AND that is exactly when people should be in the market. All the worry worts and scare freaks get all the little guys out, but the market charges ahead then the little guys get in at the top. It always happens that way.
 
in 1979 the talk was the same. We were in debt, the economy was bad, Japan was going to own everything. But we stayed out of wars, got the economy on track and had a balanced budget by 1996 We can do the same, and I agree we do need to cut more spending. I also like the GOP proposal on indexing for social security (this formula was done on the state level in colorado by both parties and balanced the budget).
 
IF you think CPAs are rich and get richer by complex tax codes you are wrong. Nearly everyone I know has made less money in recent years and worked way harder. A LOT less money. Because our clients have struggled. But we do things like downsize (sold my house in 2010 at a 120k gain over 1996 purchase price. Cut personal and office bills in half (living and office costs). That allows for quality of life, as its not always about money and having a big home. People are trying to live on some unreal level and blaming people with OBamaphones for their problems.
 
+Martin Adamo If you're trying to convince me that your "Full Service CPA firm specializing in Tax and Accounting Services for Small Business" doesn't profit from complexity in the tax codes, you'd probably better give up now. Yes, you make less when the economy suffers. If we don't reign in Obama, your client base will shrink even more. 

I see I should have blocked our poet faster. +Edward Alan Bartholomew , I'll be the judge of whether the small quantities of aircraft fuel I've burned (zero in the last few years, by the way) were "wasted", because I bloody well paid for them with money that I earned.

It's my decision as to what to do with that money, not some snotty-nosed emo kid with delusions of intellectual and moral superiority who thinks he's good enough to tell everybody else when they're "wasting" their own resources, or decide that they have too much money and should have the "excess" taxed away for his own benefit. 

And my work with 3D graphics and simulation are paying off in my work as well.

So screw you, go Occupy something.        
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