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I just wanted to post that I saw "The Innocence of Muslims" on YouTube right now, and it's probably one of the worst production pieces I've ever seen in my life. It's so insanely bad that I have seen high school production videos which could stand for an Oscar in comparison to it.

Yes, it's really that horrible.

However, I'd like to point out that, as bad as it is, and as much of a past criminal as this "Sam Bacile" is, with his apparent history of narcotics convictions and Federal prison time, and as much of a liar as he is, stating that he's Jewish, Israeli, and a real estate developer with five million dollars in "Jewish donor" funds backing the film (which are absolutely all untrue and have been proven by now to be so), it is absolutely insane to riot over this piece of trash.

I use that word deliberately: It truly is utterly insane. This film will convince no one of anything in any way whatsoever, other than it's an extremely bad "film". In fact, I even hesitate to use the word "film" to describe it (yes, it truly is that bad of a production).

But the fact is that I've seen literally hundreds of anti-Jewish films from the Muslim world online and from right-wing hate groups. I've seen hundreds of Nazis marching against Jews and others in the street. I've seen Daniel Pearl beheaded literally because he was a Jew, on screen. And I've seen footage of hundreds of Christians blown up and burned alive because of their faith.

And have Jews and Christians ever rioted because of it, storming embassies, and killing people in other countries because not only their faith was butchered on screen, but their people literally butchered as well in front of a camera?

I have not.

The fact is that there is something vitriolic and insane about Islam as it is today which makes a large number of its adherents in other countries do horrific things in response to the smallest perceived slight against their religion. We've all seen it before with the Danish cartoons, and with other "insults to the Koran" - there is no other religion in the world right now from which we can expect exactly this response each and every time. Absolutely none. We can expect a variety of abuses, stupidities, and even protests, but not the storming of embassies and the murder of absolutely innocent people simply for revenge "for the faith".

To say that this is simply a cultural artifact is utterly blind, stupid, and morally vacuous. It is not a cultural artifact; it is a religious one. It is a religious one because you have the exact same people with different religions (Jews, Christians, Baha'i) who do not storm embassies in those countries when their religion is insulted. You have atheists in those same countries, mostly in hiding, who do not riot in the streets when they encounter hatred against atheists. It is literally only the Muslims in those nations who do. It is only when Muslims are insulted that people need to go into hiding.

That makes it a religious problem with Islam.

I am absolutely sick to death of hearing people excuse it with explanations about societal pressures and lack of education. I dare say that Christians in Muslim countries have far less education than Muslims do overall, and they do not riot when they are insulted.

No, I'm going to lay this squarely on the shoulders of Islam right now and blame it for what is going on. Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens were absolutely correct to blame Islam for such ills in the world today, and to say that we need to deal with it and squarely face that particular problem. I am not calling for the eradication of Muslims, and neither were they. I am, however, calling for a confrontation about what Islam is about, what it stands for, and for what it orders to its adherents.

I once again think that this film is utter trash, and I have rarely seen something else so badly produced, but there is no excuse for these riots other than what is written in that stupid, savage, ignorant book full of moronic "decrees". And, at this point, anyone who starts excusing this crap in any way, anyone who starts mentioning the sensibilities of the regional inhabitants, anyone who calls for "understanding" of their position, is a fool and an enabler and an embarrassment to rational thought. To those people, I say: Snap out of your navel-gazing stance of rationalization and self-hatred and start accepting the realities of the world around you, no matter how it makes you feel. Grow the fuck up.
Alex Yuan (AySz88)'s profile photoMartin Möbius's profile photoBrian Fahrlander's profile photoXenophrenia's profile photo
When religion rules, reality goes out the window.
Couldn't agree more.  Religion is not an excuse for barbarian savagery.
+Kate Savage Oh never mind, I just saw that you reshared it and read the comments. =) Thanks btw.
+Summer Seale , Christians and Jews are better . . NOW.  But both religions have histories of violence and genocide against unbelievers.  Islam is relatively young, it is still in it's violent stage.  The fact is, all three of the Big Three advocated and still advocate violence.  And all three gleefully believe the rest of us will end up in Hell where we will suffer horrific pain and torture FOR ALL ETERNITY . .because we did not believe as they do.
+Gwenny Todd Not so about Judaism.  Judaism has no concept like in Christianity about "saved" versus "not saved," and in fact has the concept of "righteous among the Gentiles."  This is not limited to those who actively supported or saved Jews during the Shoah, (these folks have been memorialized in Yad Vashem) but has been an idea that is actively shared since ancient times.
I just replied to some things on +Kate Savage 's reshare, so you can go there and argue if you like. I am, however, short on time so I am not certain that I'll be able to respond quickly tonight or tomorrow.
As I read this ... you say the Jews and Christians in the Muslim countries don't riot ... most don't even make their religion public and it would be suicide to riot ... so saying they don't as a sign they are better is a mute point in some ways ... we don't know what they'd do because they can't do it ...

It's the power of privilege and when that privilege is threatened the privileged tend not to react well ... look at what happened here during the civil rights movement. Those that get their way on a regular basis tend not to react well when faced with losing that privilege ... these countries have been heavily 'sheltered' in many ways ... shit look what has happened to the Republican party since the election of a black President with an Arabic sounding name (I'm not sure of the exact lineage of the name) ... that is what happens when privilege loses power ... we are more restrained (to some degree) here ...

Does it excuse their behavior - no ... but just telling them to grow up isn't going to do much either ... many of these countries were not really aware what happens in the outside world until the internet showed up and many still don't.

It's not a matter of growing up but growing into ... and these places have been greatly stunted by both their religion and the leadership (which has used the religion to do it) ... Our Christians kill abortion doctors and terrorize anyone involved in the process ... and still do ... so saying Christians are better is overlooking a great deal of behavior ...

It's more privilege than religion - religion is the vehicle for privilege in that you are led to believe you have certain privileges by being in a religion and those not in it are evil or heathens or worse ... sometimes just seen as pitiful ... the power of privilege is what needs to be questioned ... of the idea that anyone of us is 'better' than another for a point of view or status born into ...
I would also add that since these people are so non-privileged in most material ways ... their rage can be seen as a reaction to having the one privilege they feel they have being removed ... when the only leg you have to stand on is threatened - never mind how 'nonsensical' the leg is - you will fight to the death to hold on to it.

You're not dealing with rational beings here and trying to speak rationally to irrationality is well ... irrational ;-). 
+Xeno Phrenia Your example speaks volumes in so many ways. It is not a moot (not mute) point. You are apparently unaware that there are some countries in which Muslims are not the majority, are "oppressed" more than the others, and still find it in them to riot against other religions. The point is that even in such countries where Muslims would risk it all by rioting, they still do it. So bringing up the fact that Christians, Jews, and others are minorities in Muslim countries does in no way settle the question as to why it is only the Muslims who are generally doing this sort of thing.

I've addressed the issue of extremist Christians in Kate Savage's repost, so you can go there and read it. The two situations are absolutely not the same, even though I disagree completely with the violence perpetrated at abortion clinics. To compare them is to completely miss the point about the fundamentals in philosophy and the resulting actions.

You may read my responses here:
+Summer Seale .. ha ... I knew it felt wrong when I wrote mute ;-) ...

No - I am aware there are countries that Muslims are the minority ... and still have the tendency to riot (are they recent arrivals?) ... My point is that it isn't just the religion ... look at the Christians in poor countries like Uganda that go on literal witch hunts (albinos are a favorite target) and kill gays ...

The fact that the majority of them don't react this way says there's more than just the religion involved ... and I would also ask - is it the religion or other cultural factors that account for the differences in reaction?

Christianity and Judaism are far more 'domesticated' (for lack of a better word) ... they have been 'tamed' ... or had their rough edges smoothed by interactions over time that many from Muslim countries have not had ... many of these countries have been severely cut off from the rest of the world for a great deal of history ... extremely insular ... yes - many have moved out but those that haven't until recently know very little of the rest of the world. Like their being so upset that our government 'condoned' this movie - because where they're from - there is no such thing as free speech ... they don't understand the concept. (which I noticed the administrations comments on it were brought up in the other thread - they made these clarifications because there is a fundamental difference in worldview that needs to be addressed outside of religion) ...

Anyway - my main point was to point out that the Jews & Christians in Muslim countries don't riot for a reason ... you stated specifically those conditions and ... well ... like I said - it would be suicide for them to do so ...

There's more to it than just their religion ... I feel it may have more to do with the individual personality types of the individuals that participate and the religion just gives a framework to work in ... I just don't see it as only being about the religion (but the religion is what gives them the 'privilege' they see being threatened) ... because a great many of those that follow it don't behave that way ... it's a major factor - but not the only one.
+Xeno Phrenia I'd respond in full but it's late here (almost 1am) and I really don't want to debate all night. You should go to the link I posted and read my replies there as I addressed these issues already as much as I could. I do appreciate your comment, however.
+Summer Seale - I'd also add that some of it may be misplaced aggression for the violence the US has done there ...
+Charles Stern , not they don't.  They are Chosen, the rest of us are their slaves in the end.  They didn't REALLY have any concept of Hell for a long time.  Any mention of hell-like words was of the dead in graves.  When God promised someone something, it was for his posterity, not a happy ever afterlife.  So it's not the same as Christian, but it's just as arrogant and hateful.
+Summer Seale - frankly ... since I agree with a great deal of your point - I'm not looking for a debate - just wanted to point out the statement of Christians & Jews within Muslim countries was not a good example and point out that it's more than just the religion ... it's a big part but since there are over a billion who practice Islam in the world ... it would be quite a place if it were that the religion made them violent.
You really think that the people there are so raged about this video that they are smashing embassies?
Grow up.
The evidence, +Martin Möbius , is that this was planned before the movie was released and was not the cause at all.  And . . well . . . fundies will riot over all kinds of crap, not unbelievable that these mentally deficient, immoral folks would kill for a movie.
+Gwenny Todd - from people actually in these countries - it's political and fringe organizations using something most people haven't even seen to create a reason to attack ... this has actually very little do with the movie itself - which is being used as a political football - most of what is happening is small pockets of disenfranchised and angry populace being given a reason to take their anger out on a target ... which - as I stated in one of my comments - is nothing more than displaced aggression which is it seems even groups over here are using for their political purposes ... which in this case is to rail against the obvious evil of Islam ... when even those in these countries are saying it has very little to do with it really ... so perhaps we should have actual on the ground facts before we make ad hominem accusations against whole swathes of people? perhaps? Just a thought.

I am as anti-religion as the next atheist - but find it very disheartening when assumptions and presumptions are taking precedence over actual facts ... like blaming our government for coddling extremists when - perhaps - what they are trying to do is save lives of people in our embassies? You know - that diplomatic stuff where there could be dire consequences of telling someone they're just being a dick ... that kind of thing.
I think this is making a distinction between two things that don't actually contradict each other?

Unless I'm just seeing different analyses than you, their point seems to be that the actions aren't explained by just the film insulting people - the film is the most obvious thing, but it's not sufficient to explain why things blew up.  It's not like the film went viral on its own - there was something like a two-month gap.  It was intentionally utilized as a tool that ended up instigating all this. (That leads to more questions: How was it used so effectively for propaganda? etc.)  That does not contradict the idea that there's something really messed up with this sort of dogmatic hard-right organized political Islam, using this film to stir up nationalism(right word?) in this way.  But it also allows you to think up broader solutions to pull people away from this entire sort of problem (the things like education which you mention).
Again, I question people's motives when they call into effect any mention of political or sociological situations which have produced these riots. I do question the sincerity of these things because I do not see them treating others with the same kind of delicate wording as they do with Muslims.

Has anyone here ever called into question the political and sociological "reasons" behind the bombing of abortion clinics, the shooting of abortion doctors, or even just Christian fundamentalists getting themselves in a tizzy about gays and trying to push through creationism in our classrooms?

The only thing which I've seen in those instances is people getting furious that those Christians are being Christian idiots and following the bible literally. Absolutely no mention of social and political considerations whatsoever.

That's why I really am not buying it. I'm sorry, it's wrong. You either say that Christian fundamentalists are stupidly motivated by their own religious rules and then say the same about Muslims when they act up, or you plainly admit that you don't treat Muslims the same way that you treat Christians. There's a word for that, by the way; it's called hypocrisy.
Hm, I did mention that perhaps we don't see the same analyses, but I wasn't expecting it to be in this way... :p

I actually have seen a ton of similar stuff about right-wing Christian fundamentalism (though people here don't really call it 'Christian', as there are a lot of Christians here that lean more towards the left wing than right wing...).  For example:

- The Southern Poverty Law Center does that sort of analysis on all types of right-wing violence, including against abortion providers, as well:

- The National Center for Science Education does a lot of such analysis on creationism (and climate change) .

- This talk from Jonathan Heidt implies a lot of it - the example that comes to mind right now is a mention that the origin of anti-gay positions can bee seen as a 'purity' facet of morality ( .

(That's probably enough to get the idea...? :p )
I'm not talking about organizations which analyze these types of events. I'm talking about people commenting here and elsewhere in the general public at large, and the rhetoric coming from those circles.

I, for one, do not cite socio-political extenuating circumstances when confronting the idiocy of Christians and, frankly, I do not see why I should have to do the same with Muslims. If we are going to assign the hatred of gays with, for instance, Proposition 8 in California with the stupidity of Christian doctrine and its idiotic adherents, then I am going to, in turn, also assign the idiotic antics of those rioting to a problem with Islam.

Whether or not there was a planned attack on the US Embassy in Libya, or paid protesters in Cairo, is besides the point. The point is that many others were there who were not part of these conspiracies to create more chaos, and they wouldn't have been there causing havoc if it were not for their stupid book which tells them all sorts of stupid things.
Ah; I have to admit that I haven't been following "general public at large" rhetoric at all.  (To be honest, I avoid it, not least because I'd be too tempted to individually debate people! :p )
In short you could compare it with the situation of Enlightenment in europe 18th century.
An extremist elite won't share the power with more rational parts.

eod for me
It's not about this movie, the White House wants you to think that.

The DNC had Obama screaming "We killed Osama" (the only achievement he had) while Muslims, Democrat's new friends, looked on in anger.

That's why the protesters were saying "OBAMA: WE'RE ALL OSAMAS!" and he didn't know because he failed to make the morning briefings, before AND AFTER the killing.

Nope, this is another dramatic failure of the Democrat Leadership of foreign policy, AGAIN.  And notice which news outlets are pumping the movie-lie, too!
+Brian Fahrlander - the White House isn't wanting us to think that - they're being accused of not stopping it ... which is why they are going out of their way to condemn it ... the protesters that are having a fit about America are outrightly stating that it's our governments fault for allowing the 'movie' to be posted ...

Second - no Osama isn't the only accomplishment he's had - he's successfully eradicated much of the top of Al Qaeda ... but hey ... he has also skillfully navigated the issue of Libya (the uprising) which is why the majority of Libyans are holding signs thanking and apologizing to us ...

The protests are actual small groups of highly radicalized far right ultra conservatives trying to cause issues ... everyone who knows anything about the region is saying that - not just people here but there as well - so trying to make this a greater issue than it is is highly disingenuous at best - perhaps one should actually look at what people who know about these things are saying? Just a thought.
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