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Heading back after a short trip to Chicago. Exhausted! Loads of incredibly exciting things under works!
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Kevin T's profile photoPunit Soni's profile photoLeonardo Moschetti's profile photoThomas Charron's profile photo
155 comments
 
Please tell me some of this news is mobile-wise?
Kevin T
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Hopefully it's unlocked photon bootloaders!
 
Or perhaps he's actually had someone explain how we got here in the first place.  That'd be nice to..
 
If Moto comes up with a Nexus on the next go around, I'm all in. 
 
I remember when phones didn't get ANY updates and we were happy to have it! I still have an original brick phone around here somewhere!
 
+Punit Soni Anxiously awaiting these exciting things. Saw/held a friend's Razr M the other day, my first experience with the device, and I must admit I was blown away. If I didn't have a Galaxy Nexus I would most definitely get it. Very encouraging direction for Motorola. 
 
What are these rumors about a 5.5 inch Motorola Titan? Hmmmm mm? 
 
Let me know if you find out more :)!
 
The only bit I really wish I had an assurance of, was Motorola's continued support of keyboard sliders.
 
'Support' is not a word in Motorola's dictionary. 
 
Holy crap, another phone? So much for the model of not releasing a dozen models a year.
 
+Thomas Charron according to rumors there is a 5 inch motorola phone and a 5.5 inch beast phone coming in mid 2013.
 
+Punit Soni hahaha, im sure you know a lot more than I do.  

From what I hear

-5.5 inch screen 1080p
-quad core
-2GB RAM
-Edge to Edge display
-3300mah battery
 
Can the people who only want to complain (and not in a productive fashion, but in a "I'm going to hate Motorola no matter what they do" fashion) kindly go away?
 
+Carola Koitz For the record, if you ever wondered why people block you... that's why.
 
No company promised you anything, you're not entitled to anything. Grow up, put your adult pants on, and get over it.
 
+Jake Weisz so far, +Punit Soni hasn't asked us to go away (yet).  So if you dislike the conversations, then block the lot of us, and not have to read it.
 
+Thomas Charron There's a lot of room for constructive criticism and discussion with Motorola. But it's very off-putting to be buried under comments by people who are very obviously not interested in Motorola products, but rather interested in trying to scare people away from Motorola.
 
+Jake Weisz as far as what the company 'promised', 'promised' is a poor, poor word.  +Punit Soni stated he wanted to make +Motorola Mobility be better.  So far, it has been better for some people.  It has come at a cost of others being dropped due to a lack of resources inside of Moto, something which is beyond the control of +Punit Soni.  What we do know is, +Punit Soni made decisions which dropped a number of phones off of the upgrade list, after users bought these phones based on the planned upgrade list.  Hard decisions where made by +Punit Soni, and one of those decisions was to upgrade the Bionic ahead of schedule, at a cost of dropping three other phones by the wayside.

So no, we're not going to go away.  Perhaps we won't even be heard.  But we're doing something to say that what happened just prior to +Punit Soni, and soon after, is an unacceptable sacrifice to ask their consumers to make after having had them commit to a +Motorola Mobility product for two years or more.

And there are several options available which would cost +Punit Soni little manpower.  It's great to type up a quick blog post to address how poorly Moto dealt with Bionic users, and how he wants to move forward, while, quite literally ignoring the huge negative backlash that occured over the entire issue.  To this day, +Punit Soni has said nothing to these users.  Not one single word.

So if you want to merrily read a Google+ page without actually having any interaction take place, then perhaps MySpace is a better place to read.  Or perhaps the Motorola blogs, lord knows there's no interaction there.
Kevin T
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well if you are"off-put" Jake go read someone else's post otherwise block us and move the hell on
 
+Jake Weisz your missing one critical point here.  We are users who are currently locked into the use of our motorola product, unless we want to bribe our way out of it buy paying 600+ for a new phone.  We own these products, we use them as part of our everyday lives.  And for the record, Google and Motorola DID promise users an 18 month period.  At Google I/O conference in May of 2011.  
 
+Carola Koitz As mentioned above, you weren't promised jack.

+Thomas Charron The honest truth is, and this is the case for EVERY manufacturer, be it Samsung, LG, HTC, ASUS, or otherwise... is that if you bought your device on the expectation of upgrades you are a moron. You are buying the device they are selling. Nothing less, nothing more. If they decide to offer a completely free update to your phone, that is up to whatever manufacturer does it, when and if they do.
 
+Thomas Charron In almost every other country on the planet, people pay $600+ per phone. Technically, your contract lock-in is a cruel deception. You can buy a new phone at any time, for the same price everyone else pays for it.
 
+Jake Weisz guess what happened to those users.  +Motorola Mobility, of their own accord, locked them out of their phones without so much as an explanation.  And one step further, those users are not paying over $100 a line in order to use those phones.  Hence, the subsidy, which is incorporated in your plan.  We all are already paying 600+ for our phone, it's just been built into our plans as an over time payment.
 
+Thomas Charron And if you want a new one, you can pay $600 again at any time. You aren't locked in to anything.
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guess Jake doesn't know the saying the squeaky wheel gets the grease. he'd just bend over and take it.
 
+Jake Weisz wow.  So, if an operating system update is forced to your (insert your brand computer here) and you don't like the changes, that it is your fault, and you should just buy a new computer if you don't like it.  That logic is utterly naive and idiotic.  And again, your missing the point.  We want to talk about how what happened happened.  We'd also like to know why a small amount of effort cannot take place to help users who where unfortunate in getting their upgrades cancelled in order to allow another set of users who where lucky enough to have their upgrade bumped up at our expense.  It's also obvious that you don't know the history of what happened over time.  You may want to consider that the entire problem is larger then just a vendor supplied upgrade being canceled.
 
+Jake Weisz the other thing that I think riles the most people up is that absolutely no one at +Motorola Mobility seems to care at all about consumer perception of the company at a whole.
 
+Thomas Charron I have a DROID 3 which is stuck on Gingerbread and a DROID BIONIC which has ICS. The better phone: The DROID 3. ICS doesn't suit the Bionic as well, it has battery life issues. My little brother likes it (I gave it to him) more than Gingerbread, but it's almost always got a dead battery. You are, more than likely, better off.

As to why the Bionic was prioritized, half a brain and a little logic provides: It was a more popular phone, the upgrade benefit more customers.
 
+Jake Weisz  have you cleared your cache and performed a factory reset? I've had nothing but positive things on Bionic ICS. Battery life was much improved...i went over 2 days with the extended battery.

If you didn't factory reset, that is akin to just upgrade windows to a new major version (say, xp to 7) and in my experience, always has side effects.
 
+Justin Woodman I think the factory reset I did was prior to the ICS upgrade, because that's when I gave it to him. I probably could work on it further, but he doesn't need it that badly, it works for now.

My point though, is that it is not necessarily ideal to upgrade all devices, and that Motorola has to take into account that very few people will factory reset their devices during an upgrade. (My Motorola Xoom has never be reset between 3.0.1 and it's current 4.0.4. There was something like eight system updates in there.)
 
+Jake Weisz the performance increases are generally across the board for the 3.x kernel versus the 2.6 kernel present in gingerbread.  And we have had experience in running ICS on our hardware.  For a simple side by side comparison, see Motorola Electrify: Gingerbread vs. Ice Cream Sandwich

+Punit Soni  himself has said it was a financial decision, not a technical one.  And we get that.

But paired with that decision was a deployment that forcefully locked and encypted our bootloaders without any notice to users.  It wasn't even mentioned slightly in the changelog.  It was a fundamental change which physically burnt the eFuse's in the phones, and made them a significantly different device then they where when we purchased them.  As a result, we, the software engineers who gladly give their time, freely, to do the work that moto can't afford to, are denied access to our own products, WITH NO EXPLANATION AS TO WHY.  As an additional slap in the face, inferences are made that the carriers aren't comfortable with unlocked bootloaders, yet these phones where out in the wild for over a year with OEM unlock bootloaders.  And to make it worse, less then a week later, the same company releases the 'Photon Q' with an unlockable bootloader as an advertised feature.

And to this day, no one at Motorola will speak on this.  Comments on it's own customer forum are DELETED, or threatened to be banned if they dare discuss it.

You want us to go away?  How about suggesting that we go thru a good channel.  Such as having discussions on Motorolas own customer support boards.  Or perhaps a Moto blog post looking back on what happened.
 
+Carola Koitz you dont seem to understand that motorola is under completely new management from the one who made decisions about phones such as Bionic, Atrix, and others.  The RAZR HD Maxx is the last phone released under influence of old management.  All phones from here on out are from the "new motorola."  So please give them some benefit of doubt, these are not the same people who screwed us over.  
 
+Raun Kunkel then we would welcome having a conversation with them over what happened.  And it would cost them negligible money to at least roll back the bootloader lock that they forced to our systems as an undocumented 'update'.  Or at least tell us why it was pushed out in the first place.  The phone bootloader firmware itself was modified after these devices where running on public networks for a year.

What leads us to believe what your saying isn't true is, there is no transparency, no communications, and no open lines of communications.  What we DO have are commercial ads for 'the new and improved Moto'.  How exactly are we supposed to believe this?  The new motorola is not acting any different.  Hell, know what be great?  An apology.  Worked for Domino's.

This first big sign of a chance in a company, one that will actually affect public perception, is admitting to what didn't/wasn't working, and what actions you are taking to be different.  So far, the 'new' leadership first announced 'The Majority of our Phones', which turned into 'Most of our phones', which turned into, 'Here's a $100 discount on a phone which we make $200 profit on anyway'.  One step better?  Agree to give the providers the $100, and have it applied to our bills, instead of making the end user sell their phone back to you, to get a debit card in 2-3 months for $100.

There are so many small things which could be done to make users believe they care.  +Punit Soni and +Motorola Mobility haven't done anything that wasn't, at the surface, a cheap marketing trick, or vague indirection that something just wasn't there fault.  Being strait up and honest hasn't been done, beyond +Punit Soni saying, "It was a hard decision".  We're so glad it was hard for you, +Punit Soni.  Now how about talking to how it affected us, and not just you.
 
+Raun Kunkel here's an example.

+Punit Soni said: "Motorola supports unlockable bootloaders -- but that in some instances, the company is facing concerns from the carriers. When those concerns are assuaged, it will gladly provide the bootloaders to individuals, he said."

Could +Punit Soni comment on communications to assuage concerns on the part of Sprint over the bootloader which was forcefully locked after being deployed in an unlocked version for over a year?  So that +Motorola Mobility can gladly provide the bootloader?  He won't comment.  He hasn't, and he's actively ignored requests on the point he himself made.  Prove to us your not the old Moto, +Punit Soni.  Please..
 
+Raun Kunkel  - don't bother.  These guys won't give up , will never get it and bash all who try.  Their focus has become so narrow with a mirror at the end.  We lived thru 12-12-12 12:12:12 and life will go on.
 
I will not go away untill my Photon 4G is updated in the software or the bootloader is unlocked.
 
so where is our promised "proper" replay on why the Atrix 4G and Photon owners were lied to and got ICS cut from them.  

Also the "buy back" program is crap.  The only reason it is worth anything is after we were screwed over the resale value of our devices dropped and even then it is still more than the 100 you all are offering to buy ANOTHER moto device only to be lied to and screwed over again.

WE WANT OUR PROPER REPLAY LIKED PROMISED.
 
It such a nice day out today:)
 
Itini comments and ekbhi reply Nahi .awesome hai aap
 
+Jake weisz, i dont think im a moron. I still put trust in companies that earn my trust. I lose trust in companies that dont keep their promises. Sometimes they earn our trust back and Im a customer again. Sometimes not. Its just the way it is for me. If thats your definition of a moron, i guess i dont care :)
 
I would love to have a 5.5 inch Motorola Titan :-)
 
+Cory Fenley make sure to use social media over at +Motorola Mobility.  Might have to start reposting over and over tho, since they're deleting posts now that their paying attention to the negative feedback.  Literally deleting the posts.
 
I dont think anyone should be or is deleting posts. We welcome your feedback, negative or positive. We have a plan but of course, it doesnt assuage things completely esp. in the short term.
 
+Punit Soni I've always been very honest and very straightforward. but you're wrong, they are now deleting posts. I am 100 percent certain of this. either that or Google Plus is randomly forgetting posts, which is not very likely. thank you for responding however, what would be nice to have a blog post on what the plan is. we really appreciate it when we can actually interact. if you were a customer of a company and that company never called you back, how would you feel. please look at my Google Plus page, and read the letter that was specifically to you. but thanks for responding, it means a lot to us.
 
+Punit Soni Does Motorola have any plans to unlock the boot loader on my Photon 4G?
 
+Cory Fenley I've been told the exact same thing by Sprint.  It's kind of supported by the fact that +Motorola Mobility pushes updates directly.  I can only assume that +Punit Soni doesn't know, or doesn't feel it's worth pursuing it for us.

Or the third option, that there's some super secret plan to actually help us.  How about it, +Punit Soni.  Confirm or deny?
 
Know something else that occurred to me, +Punit Soni, what hasn't happened is long term support for existing phones.  As an example, the software product page has no phone information on updating phones to 4.2.  
 
sigh If IP hosts interacted like this, the internet wouldn't exist.  Well, it may exist, but people would be really, really bitchy about idle sockets not getting closed after an utter lack of communication...
 
How long ago has 4.2 been publicly pushed? It takes time to see what's in there, work with hardware providers to ensure support from their end, figure out how it interacts with our current plans (we are still pushing 4.1), and then validate a real schedule, and finally publish it.
 
+Punit Soni is Google no longer sharing the sources prior to public release?  I had always thought that what gets published is after the carriers had already been prepped for it.  If this isn't the case, that explains the lack of 4.2 comments, and I apologize based on my ignorance.  I figured you had it for at least a month or two before public release.
 
+Joe Babcock as usual, no plan to even talk to a single photon user, nor acknowlege they even exist. judge by actions is the best bet, and silently ignoring is a prety god way to judge that some users can just stuff it. Thats you, me, and all of the other users who where the ones who pay for the tough personal sacrifices . Aren't you glad you bought a moto product? Man, I sure am. I've never had a company support their products like this. It's refreshing to be reminded whats the #1 goal. $$$, and selling a new phone to you each and every year.
 
Mr. Soni, can you please confirm or deny that any talk has taken place regarding the Photon or any other of the abandoned platforms since the initial ICS upgrade cancellation?
 
No Matt, we have not had any change in plans since. 
Kevin T
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imagine that :/
 
+Punit Soni then please release all sources in compliance with the GPL. the Motorola open source site lacks many off the maintenance release sources. Additionally, any sources which were distributed via the Motorola update servers for engineering releases, such as the ICS build which is being used in binary form as the source of many of the ICS and jelly bean based roms for the atrix and photon phones.
 
Why did you abandon the Atrix 4G after promising an update? Honest question not trying to flame. I bought my Atrix a month before you cancelled it so it really effected me and many others Thanks! 
 
Is the upcoming AT&T Atrix 4g soak test just a maintenance update or is it possibly the ICS/JB release?  Thanks
 
+Tim Wang I'm betting it's a harder bootloader lock, or some essential patch for security or functionality, either way, I'm curious about this too.  I hope Moto surprises everyone with something cool....then expands to other past models.
 
In the 5 months I have been on this, I dont go through one day when I dont feel the impact of past promises that were made and couldnt be met. I have said this before: I cannot fix the past. However, going forward, anything we launch, we will support. Any commitment we make, we will follow up.
 
You can fix the past, the overwhelming majority of what I've read is that a bootloader unlock and ICS/JB kernel and drivers release would give everyone what they need to move forward with devices that are clearly capable of moving forward.  The community can and will fill in the blanks, minimal impact to Moto (I assume).  Devices can live on for quite a while, my first Android device, the Samsung Moment, had a lot of really good development long after Samsung stopped releasing updates for it, I understand that probably isn't in the best interest for business, but as a consumer it makes sense.  At end of life for a device, are you still bound by some carrier obligation to leave a bootloader locked?  I really respect what you say about moving forward, but in my opinion, some of the past mistakes can be fixed, and fix a large blemish in your companies reputation.
 
what do you mean you cannot fix the past? like you cannot tell your dev team to finish the almost done Atrix ics? or you can't arrange to have the same leak's sources released? that should be a hard task and an intense use of company resources 
 
If you can't fix the past, I can fix my future and not buy Motorola ever again. Even without the cancellation of the Atrix 4G ICS update (which was just a terrible move from Motorola), my Atrix never worked well with random reboots, "wifi off on sleep" policy not working, mobile data needing a reboot to be activated again, etc. I send it for reparation twice and it got back exactly the same. Faulty hardware with faulty support makes me want go Samsung or HTC...
 
I never liked either. LG is becoming more and more appealing. 
 
+Punit Soni Saying you can't fix the past is a cop out and doesn't address many of the very simple things that could be done, first of which would be releasing the kernel source for the internal development builds and rolling back the bootloader locks. We all know Sprint allows Motorola phones with unlocked bootloaders so why can't the Photon be unlocked??? We don't really care if the update is official or unofficial as long as Motorola makes a worthwhile effort. In addition Motorola is legally responsible for releasing the code to kernel version "2.6.39.4 cxrm67@zin67androidbld07#1 - Aug 8 13:28:24" as part of the Atrix 4G software package "4.0.4-6.7.7_95-95-test-keys-ATT-US - 7.5.0.83" and any other GPLv2 components in that package. You have failed to address the issues, we know that doing what we ask involves essentially no resources on Motorola's part and see no reason for the lack of source code or unlocked bootloaders on the Photon 4G.
 
Dont you think that the better way to show that you and your team are going to keep the promises is actually keeping them??..Sorry but just ask us to believe on what Moto is saying, again, is a bit disrespectful IMO.
 
+Punit Soni we understand what you're currently doing, and it's great if your on Verizon and have a RAZR phone.  In some cases, we don't see a change, as these updates where going to happen anyway, the only thing that's changed to us is that there's no dates, and hence, no misses.

Don't get me wrong, this is better, kinda.  Remember, 1Q is a 3 month timeframe.  When people don't see 1Q, they assume 2Q/3Q/4Q, causing them to say to themselves, '4-12 months?'.

Consider the Photon Q.  It was released months before the RAZR line, but it isn't even scheduled for 1Q 2013.  This is a key point where people aren't feeling a change.

As far as communications go, a fine example is the Motorola blog.  Your post was a fine example of something we would expect to see as the norm, not the exception.  Yet since that post, the only thing on that blog are ads.  It's not serving as a blog, it's pure marketing.  That is mirrored by every other social media outlet which +Motorola Mobility has at their disposal.  On their own Google+ page, there have been MONTHS of posts, nearly every day, talking about battery life, or how bad Samsung and/or Apple sucks.

Change means that +Motorola Mobility wants to foster community around their product.  Community trumps all, as a strong connection to a product and or company is the most powerful marketing tool anyone can have.  You can see this sort of community commitment in what takes place on sites like XDA.  Think about this.  There people work on improving aspects of a phone for free in their spare time.  CyanogenMod has millions of phones that have it installed.  All based on work done by a community, and supported by a community.

Now, Motorola does have the Motorola Community Forums.  This is an example, however, where +Motorola Mobility fails again.  Those communities seldom, if ever, have any interaction with Moto themselves.  Even your own message was passed down third hand by  moderator, in a small post with little background information, in the case of the cancellation of the sunfire line of phones.  You really have to understand this.  You provided a two line summary that amounted to, "This is whats happening, sorry, really.  But suck it, we're not going to tell you anything more".

Let me propose a small, simple way to do it that would have fostered community, instead of fostering a sense of despise.

"We regret that, due to the current process of rebuilding the Motorola Mobility company to be what we envision it to be in the future, we cannot commit any additional efforts towards updating of these models of phones.  We deeply regret having to make this decision, and will do our best to find ways to make it up to you.  For existing users who would like to purchase new phones, we would like to offer [insert trade in plan here].  For customers who love their current phones, we will review our current code bases for these product lines, and release what we have completed to date via the OSMC.  We understand this is less then you have expected from us, however, with this information, members of the community who due truly love their phones will at least have the opportunity to have what we are currently unable to provide.  Working forward, we would like to work with you, our consumers, to ensure we can always make commitments which we make to you."

There would still be backlash.  But you would have had the communities support.  And man, oh man, where we ready to throw our support behind Motorola, and quite honestly, you +Punit Soni .
 
Are you guys in Bay Area? Perhaps a few of us can meet and discuss. Talking in person helps.. I am happy to invite a few of you over to Motorola and have a cup of coffee together. There are some great points here and we should absolutely do this way better. 
 
Jelly Bean for Motorola Atrix 2, its a quality phone but will be better with JB. Please dont break your promises, we need to trust on Motorola.
 
+Punit Soni Unfortunately I am on the other side of the world right now and won't be stateside until the summer(one of the reasons I can't just get a new phone) if you would like to video-conference I would be all for that though.
 
Hangout?
I can ask someone to set it up.. I can meet with 4-5 folks..
 
+Punit Soni That would be fine for me, any particular time you have in mind? Earlier is better for me in general due to the time difference. I can ask a few others in the community as well who would probably like to join.
 
I'm busy right this second trying to fix a couple more bugs before I can send some work stuff to SQA, but I really wanted to convey my jaw being slightly open.  Really, no joke.  I would love to.  I believe having at least two of the XDA developers supporting the current ROM's which are able to run on unlocked systems would be a great idea as well.
 
Mr. Soni I can't afford to fly out that way. How about you just update my Atrix 4G to ICS or JB and I will donate it to the community. It's much cheaper and efficient. Only one phone needs to be updated to share with the entire world! Now that's gonna save Motorola's money and reputation! 
 
Let's Google Talk instead of Skype. It will help promote Google's & Moto's technology & products. 
 
+Timothy Wang Hangout is a Google product...also this is software development, updating "one phone" is not the issue here.
 
+Punit Soni  Please don't ignore this. I am 16 years of age, I saved hard earned cash for a second hand Motorola Atrix 4G because it was and is a phenomenal product. The Lapdock for the photon and Atrix was revolutionary and at $20 I had to pick it up. This was to be my machine for school work and entertainment at home. I bought my devices in early September in anticipation for the update you PROMISED me when I bought it. Now all that is offered is a trade up plan for a phone I can't buy on a contract I can't afford.

 However I am an avid member of XDA Developers, a community I'm sure you're aware of; XDA is full of great, hardworking people that would love your help, or at the very least, an answer. How are you going to re-pay me for what you've done? I don't want money, I want your support, along with many others. We know you started work on the Atrix for ICS as it leaked in binary, and it'd be great if you could provide source for your work, so that the devs can pick up where you left off. Here is a link to a project that two men have started, to create a kernel from scratch so our device can function as it was designed to.

 Although I'm sure Motorola has already seen it. http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2016837 So why is it that you can't provide non binary source? If it's proprietary i.e. the fingerprint reader; or other parts, than we understand. Or if you're in agreement with company X to not provide source, than we get that too. Be if you could at the very LEAST give us a hint as to why you aren't contributing, we'd all honestly love to hear a response so that we can at least understand your actions.

 Just think for a second, two no-names created something that a company as powerful as Motorola, failed to do. That news is spread across the internet. How does that sound for your PR? Lets say Engadget picks up wind of that, that Motorola dropped the ball, failed to comply with GPL license, AND some guys did what they failed to do. Nerds around the globe read those blogs, and your customers ask us nerds what next gadget they should buy, so it really seems in your best interest to at least respond. If your not going to help, or truly repay mine, and many others losses, than I think we at least deserve an answer. Thanks and have a good day.
 
+Punit Soni I would be glad to be part of a google hangout if you decide to do this.  It might be touchy, as there is one aspect, which is where +Motorola Mobility can go in the future, and people are going to want to at least talk about how we could be in this situation.  It does play in, honestly.  As an example, if anything I suggested could be something possible or not..

I'm not trying to promote anything here.  Ok, maybe just a weeee little bit.  I'm interested either way, thanks for the offer.
 
This week is intense. I will talk to the con ops people and we can do a hangout soon. I just want to hear more about what we can do better in the future. Thanks.
 
+Punit Soni Please don't pretend like my above comment doesn't exist. The community would really appreciates the effort if you could provide the reasoning at the very least.
 
There are many of us who have to use the Atrix 4G everyday until our contract expires and/or when we have enough money to look at another phone (Do you or any of your staff?), and it's definitely not going to be from MOTOROLA. It used to be the showpiece phone, but when other Android users and iFanboys see it's still on GB I always have to tell them WHY and they get the picture about MOTOROLA. There are many live walking, talking advertisements ALL OVER THE WORLD saying the same things about MOTOROLA. And you KNOW they are NOT GOOD THINGS!
 
The future is simple. Bring updates quickly, and support your device for the duration of the contracts, as the devs on XDA do, and honestly their usually better than any ROMS that ANY OEMs cook up. Although to be fair your stock firmware is usually more stable. Fix your predecessor's past mistakes, and you will regain a lot of support and credit from your customers. 
 
I'm in gmt+1, but if you were to have that hang out in a reasonable time I'd be all for it. 
 
+Punit Soni what's all about latest soak test for ATRIX 4g AT&T users. 
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I'm EST.  I'm game for it depending on date and time.  Between my efforts to keep Photon going towards 4.2, work, and my family, I'm a bit pressed for time. 

Being an avid user/contributor on XDA (not to mention building 4.1.2 and 4.2 for the Photon and Atrix), I'm not worries about ever getting an sbf for ICS/JB from Moto.

I guess my biggest disappointment is that we don't have access to any source that you were working with if/when you were trying to build ICS for this device.  This would at least allow us devs to try to keep this device relevant, as there are a LOT of people who did 2 year contracts on the devices and have to wait another 6-10 months or more to get an upgrade...

In case anyone doesn't know who I am, I'm Th3Bill from over on XDA
 
Hey +Bill Dunn, cybik here. I may not be active in the "front scene", but don't worry, I try to stay active in the "back scene"
 
+Punit Soni something else to consider is, by not talking about the past, not just openly talking about the why's, it is the same thing we've already heard from the old Motorola when updates were pushed back and dates weren't met. this maybe a missing part of the equation as to why you're getting so much negative feedback across all social media platforms. open and honest communication doesn't really cost any money. the only actual real conversations we're able to have with Motorola are with support people that are reading off the script and giving just canned answers. an example that I can use is your own response to questions about unlocking bootloaders. while you did answer the question, you didn't actually answer the question. for instance, an answer about the photon bootloader locking could very well sounds like "I've been made aware that the photon bootloader was originally shipped with an OEM unlockable bootloader, and that the bootloader was locked after the fact. I understand users frustrations, however we were never actually authorized to ship the photon 4g with unlocked bootloader in the first place. we will request sprint allow was to unlock the bootloader, however as sprint no longer sells this phone actively, and that ultimately software configurations need to be tested and certified on their network, this may not happen."

Current responses to these questions amount to a parent answering, "because I said so".
 
+Renaud Lepage , believe me, I fully respect all you've done for the moto xda community. You're one of the xda pioneers on the device and I thank you for all you've done and continue to do. 
 
+Thomas Charron couldn't agree more. Honestly though...the boot loader is mainly a moot point, as Sprint is killing 4g wimax anyway, and with so many areas having never gotten NEAR a service upgrade, many users have really only ever had a Photon 3G.

My issue is that even with this device being "dead" from a Motorola development standpoint, source is still unreleased. They could release what source they were working with if/when they had been developing ICS...obviously omitting parts that may be legally "difficult". This would allow people to continue to keep this device relevant...which from a hardware standpoint it still is.

I've mentioned it a few times in moto chats. Seems like we either get no response or "cue card" responses.
Kevin T
 
+Bill Dunn unlocked bootloaders aren't a moot point. and wimax is gonna be around for a bit.  but we would like the opportunity to put custom ROMs on our phones
 
+Bill Dunn I think you may misunderstand the bootloader on the Photon.  It is using digital signatures, and as such, there is no easy way to even use any ICS or JB installs on these phones.

There is potential, however, to bypass this particular issue.  While the kernel itself does not have kexec, we may end up being able to use this method anyway, on the Atrix, Photon, and Electrify.
 
A hangout would be great, but to get the most effective feedback, some of the other guys here have it nailed, devs from XDA would provide the most effective.  They are basically a third party customer service dept. already, they listen to the community, review wants and needs, fix bugs, and put their own unique spin on the UI, good stuff.  I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the hangout since I'm no dev, but won't waste a spot, and I'm away from home on the other side of the world with a crazy schedule.  Great idea Mr. Soni.
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+Thomas Charron , +Kevin Taber I guess u guys don't know me on xda. I'm the one putting out what jb ROMs there are on the photon and atrix. I'm not saying wimax is being discontinued, but I don't think sprint is expanding it any longer, so as such, 4g still won't matter to many users.

I'd like to see proper source for whatever work WAS being done for ICS or JB on the photon before they scrapped it.

I apologize if u guys unfortunately upped to 2.3.5. I forgot that boot loader is still locked. My bad on that one. Sometimes I forget that little poison pill update got pushed out.

So...in the end, I'd like to see unlocked loaders and whatever source was latest used during the cancelled ICS development
Kevin T
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i know who ya are +Bill Dunn. i'm on the Photon forum on xda as well. wimax is gonna be around for a bit but it would still be nice to make use of it if while we can since the photon doesn't support LTE. and I want the opportunity to re-unlock my bootloader since I am one of the unfortunate who tried to help out +Motorola Mobility by doing the soak test and got my shit perma-locked 
 
+Kevin Taber that sucks that u got done like that! I can imagine your frustration with that. Trying to help and getting screwed.

+Thomas Charron I'll have to look at it. Good news at least
 
I'm sure that Punit will explain all of this to everyone when this hangout happens, but it is clear that most of you have absolutely NO idea how the license for Android works.  Simply, ANDROID is licensed under the Apache license.  All that means is that it may be freely modified and modified versions redistributed.  Once Motorola has modified the source, they are under NO obligation to provide this modified source.  As a matter of fact, it could very well contain proprietary code.

Another problem is 3rd party drivers.  The ones that control such things as the GPU, the touchscreen, the storage controller, USB, etc.  Those drivers are NOT open source, and cannot simply be redistributed at will.  

So in summary, most of what you need to make Android truly useful on a device would be missing if Motorola simply handed over the source code.  The reason custom ROM devs are able to do what they do is they simply piggyback the OS on top of the pre-existing kernel.  For example, a CyanogenMod 10.1 ROM would actually run on an ICS (3.0.8) kernel.

Even with a proper kernel running (only method with a locked bootloader is kexec) the drivers still end up being an issue.  This is the reason the kexec ROMs completely lack camera functionality.
 
+Dave Russell A couple of dozen and more you tube videos tend to disagree with your entire idea.

Most of the chipsets used within phones are able to be figured out, with the exception of 'specialty hardware' such as the Atrix fingerprint reader.

But that's besides the point.  +Punit Soni isn't talking about this stuff in the hangout, he's talking about what Moto can do to work with the community better, to give a better sense of community.
 
+Thomas Charron Well, obviously you are going to argue with everything I say.  But facts are facts.  I don't get my reality from random Youtube videos.
 
blá blá blá... o único fato aqui é o que a motorola abandona os usuários e não cumpre suas promessas.
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bla bla bla ... The only fact here is that the motorola abandons users and does not fulfill its promises.
 
Odd, people want to harass Mr. Soni and insult Motorola, yet they do not want to hear the truth.  Apparently in the fantasy world some of you live in, copyright and intellectual property mean NOTHING.

And ALL companies abandon users and fail to deliver on promises from time to time.  But you cannot come in here and expect one man to change the entire policy of the company he works for.
 
+Dave Russell if you listen to what I was saying you'd know that the Linux kernel and the configuration of the drivers has nothing to do with intellectual property. generally speaking the drivers that are utilized by the Linux kernel are generally available from the hardware manufacturers that makes the individual chips. for example Invidia has release all of the drivers to talk to tegra2 hardware. it's obvious from your posts that you have absolutely no care for the point that people are bringing up regarding the open source software. no 1 has asked for the proprietary Android extensions or Motorola source code. nearly all of the of the shelf third party roms are built from aosp sources. if you're going to argue points, then at least have the facts straight.
 
+Thomas Charron Then everything people are asking for is freely available and is exactly what the custom ROM devs are able to get ahold of.  It's not like the Windows world where one is able to simply log onto, say, NVidia's FTP site and download a driver package.  Android drivers are not packaged that way, and Motorola cannot simply hand them over in ANY form.  Unless they are explicitly given permission.  I can't understand what you guys are asking for, everything you need can be found already.  If not proprietary software, exactly WHAT are you looking for that the AOSP ROMs don't have?
 
And that doesn't change the fact that all the harassing in the world isn't going to magically give Mr. Soni the power to fix past mistakes.  If they do not move forward, they will remain stuck in the past, and current model devices will suffer.  You don't fix a problem by introducing MORE of the same problem.
 
BTW, Punit, about time for a Software Update News update, isn't it?  Last update was on 12/28.
 
+Dave Russell We are asking for the kernel source for ICS, this is something that is GPLv2 and thus should not have any licensing issues. Motorola has so far refused to release this, we know they have it and it does not take any resources to release, this is something we think +Punit Soni could do very easily and would greatly benefit development.
 
+James Hilliard Motorola never refused to give us the sources. until recently no 1 had pilotly asked for them, thru the proper channels. That has now taken place, and moto had had the request brought to their attention. I don't want anyone to have the false impression that anyone from motorola has EVER refused this.
 
+James Hilliard and it doed take time for them to release it. Someone had to go thru, and make sure there isn't anything that shouldn't be there. And generally, make sure you can even build it. Plus, getting the signoff to release it. 
 
+Bruno Oliveira tell me would you be happier if Motorola would have just gone out of business? Punit I was dumped into the same raw deal that we are in. there are thousands of people to work Motorola, and he's just 1 of them. so stop sounding like an idiot who just lost his girlfriend. 
 
+Bruno Oliveira You sound very intelligent with your insults.  That is DEFINITELY the way to interact on someone's Google+ page.

+Thomas Charron I am now much more clear on what you guys are asking for.  However, what good would a kernel built from source do with the locked bootloader?  You'd have no way to sign it in order to allow it to run.  You would have to use something like kexec, which AFAIK is only running on OMAP4 devices at the moment.

+Punit Soni Thank you for the information, Sir.  Looking forward to seeing what JB can do on my Bionic.
 
+Dave Russell Actually most of us can still use the original leaked unlocked bootloaders, only those who have been retroactively locked can't, anyways there is a kexec project for the photon to allow custom kernels that will hopefully be working soon.
 
+Dave Russell you would be wrong.  We have ported over kexec, and are fixing kexec_tools to work with the kexec kernel module.
 
+Thomas Charron ahh, very good.  However, do be aware that in the Bionic world, the kexec ROMs all have major issues.  When I say "major issues", I am referring to things such as a completely nonfunctioning camera.  Broken bluetooth.  Those types of things.  Which may or may not be dealbreakers, and who knows, maybe kexec on the Tegra 2 will work better than it does on the OMAP4.
 
+Thomas Charron to say that no one has asked for the source of the leaked kernel only until recently is inaccurate. In fact, the question has been asked plenty of times and when it was even acknowledged,  it  was either met with someone saying they'll look into it never to be heard from again, or "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that". As to why people feel how they do, you should know. Your own opinion may have changed because you have had some dialog with a couple people from Motorola, but until that effort bears any fruit rather than just leading to more dialog, the rest of us will remain skeptical at best. As to why anyone has picked Punit Soni out of all the people at Motorola, him being "Responsible for all things software at Motorola Mobility" may have something to do with that, along with Denise Woodside not making himself as available.
 
+Leon Hall then by all means, show us the question being asked in a clear and simple manner.

Who, exactly, followed the clear directions present in the Open Source section of your manual?  Anyone?  Anyone?
 
+Thomas Charron The question has been asked on Motorola's forums, on Motorola's facebook page, Motorola's CSR's though online support, even petitions, even here in threads that disapeared, yet nothing. The request has been made since shortly after the leak happened. I realize that having a couple people from Motorola talking to you has somehow changed your outlook on the situation, but those of us that care aren't looking for attention or companionship. Just because someone didn't run it by you first, or you don't agree with the methods used, doesn't mean they (Motorola) haven't already been asked. 

Edit: 
I guess even this request must have never happened by your definition:

"Just release what you have, so the community can do what Motorola can obviously not handle doing yourselves."

Despite that coming from you back on Oct 10, 2012
https://plus.google.com/u/0/+PunitSoni/posts/AhbdV4K4zdn

My point is that there were several other, more detailed requests made, yet here we still are waiting patiently, just as we did right up until the cancellations. 
 
Hey Mr. +Punit Soni , When will be the soak test release happen? Any changelogs?
 
Wow +Punit Soni we are so blessed to have the ota update you guys sent to our ATRIX 4g. What an update. Lol..

It took half a year for your guys to fix gps and security patches which is not even 2.3.7. It shows how caring you are to your devices. It would have been wise if that update would unlock the bootloaders. But as usual you and your team lacks a common sence on how to maintain reputation with customers.

Also, It would have been only better for motorola, if sanjay jha continued staying. He is a ton better than the staff presently working.


 
The Atrix 4G update is good for those running stock ROMs, but the fixes should have happened long ago. Better late then never I suppose. That's as much of a positive attitude as I can muster, and that's digging pretty deep. 
 
What's the outcome of the Hangout?  Sorry I didn't see anything else posted about it.
Kevin T
 
imagine that lol
 
That's too bad... I figured it wouldn't amount to anything but I thought it would of at least been an honest attempt.
 
Would have been.  :-(  Unlocking the Atrix bootloader when they had a chance during the newest soak test would have been nice as well, since the soak test was going out the door and had to go thru testing and approval anyway.
 
Sorry guys.. have been swamped lately.. will do one in a few days 
 
+Punit Soni unlock a previously relocked bootloader?..    Sorry, I couldn't resist...  
 
Still no hangout, still no updates to the upgrade page, and still no word on unlocking bootloaders for the photon...smh. this X phone better be frickin legendary.
 
I think we pushed the new upgrades page today.
 
I can't believed you never tested the software update page by viewing it on a mobile device........
 
still no word on unlocking bootloaders for the photon. :(
 
Ehi Soni, io aspetto  unlocking bootloaders for the photon, ho messaggio sprint che dice della promessa di aggiornamento alla 4.0!!
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So still no hangout?   LOL  I'm not surprised!  Mr. Punit Soni  you won't have to worry about me harassing you any longer.  I told Sprint to kiss my ass a month ago and shattered the screen on this POS Photon 4G.  I have borrowed a Nexus and I have been just been calmly waiting for the pre order of  the Samsung GS4 (tomorrow).  As I already stated I will never buy or recommend another Motorola product agian.  I shall tell the screwing that you guys gave us as long as I live.   I bid you farewell and may both you and Motorola lying asses burn in eternal hell.
 
+Steve Hall I doubt he's even reading these anymore.  No public statement ever = ostrich head in the sand it appears.  Note that the same thing has now happened for the RAZR, where 'limited updates' where released in one area, and no updates to others, despite the phones being sold direct to consumers and thus, no carrier involvement.
 
+Thomas Charron  Oh I'm sure your correct!  That was for that potential customer who thinks he/she has done their homework and who is eagerly awaiting that "Flagship" phone.   I just wanted to shine the light one last time on how Motorola treats its loyal customers and "Flagship" phones. 
 
I am no clear. What's the issue? The upgrades for jb have gone along super well now..
Kevin T
 
well +Punit Soni what about that locked bootloader situation for the Photon you were going to look into? oh yeah you dont know nothing about that again do you?
 
+Punit Soni I was referring to the decision to only release the updates to phones 'To select carriers in select countries' with no apparent reason.  Many users in Europe, Asia, and other countries where denied updates to Jellybean for no apparent reason, given that they would run the same software as another country.
 
Give me some specifics so I can react. We have a larger number of jb now than most..
 
+Punit Soni half of the world is not getting at JellyBean update on their devices, for no apparent reason.  And we would love it if you would react, however, I suspect no ones going to say a thing about it, as they have (not) said in the past.  For numbers, compare the number of SKU's for the variety of RAZR's +Motorola Mobility has, and how many are updated.  At least a third of not more the the SKU's are not going to receive an update, when you take into consideration that several SKU's are 'To limited carriers', when these SKU's are generally speaking being used outside of the carriers that have been included.
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