So, is Jesus of Nazareth God or not? Long article written as a resource for all, addressed to non-Christians.
(Note: In my original post, I replaced the word "thesis" with "long article". That may explain some of the items in the Thread).
(Note: In my original post, I replaced the word "thesis" with "long article". That may explain some of the items in the Thread).
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- But a few thoughts on your entry before your previous entry,
By the way, I appreciate these exchanges. You allow us to think. We also hope that you are also thinking.
You wrote: "...so much of what was written just isn't accurate with the historical and archaeological records of the time."
I am not an Archaeologist. But the following, I have read:
There is NOTHING, as in absolutely NOTHING that can relate to Christ in Archaeology. No one really knows where HE was born, died or rose to heaven. Whatever the big thing is in Israel is called "Tourism". (And that makes total sense if not crucial sense according to Christian Philosophy. It was Christ that brought us FAITH).
I don't have time but do read this BOOK: The Biblical Qumran Scrolls
Transcriptions and Textual Variants
Edited by Eugene Ulrich, University of Notre Dame
The Biblical Qumran Scrolls presents all the Hebrew biblical manuscripts recovered from the eleven caves at Qumran. It provides a transcription of each identifiable fragment in consecutive biblical order together with the textual variants it contains. These manuscripts antedate by a millennium the previously available Hebrew manuscripts. They are the oldest, the best, and the most authentic witnesses to the texts of the Scriptures as they circulated in Jerusalem and surrounding regions at the time of the birth of Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism. The purpose is to collect in a single volume all the biblical editions originally published in a wide variety of books and articles.
Then you wrote: "...No one ever said that something came from nothing (conservation of energy??)".
Are you suggesting that the notion of conservation of energy "could" answer the question of the nothingness becoming something? Interesting.
A theory, of course.
One that would contradict your position before the Godhead.
If such a thing had existed: "conservation of energy", such a thing would have a purpose. Purpose requires a logical ability to achieve. Thus not accidental but desired. (Accidentally would actually be like spinning the letters of the alphabet in a box for 14 billion years and producing Wikipedia).
You have not read Hawking. That is fine. Astrophysics is not your thing. That is all good. History and Archaeology are your baby. Got that.
I read "A Brief History of Time' 14 times in English and 4 times in French. "Black Holes and Baby Universes and other Essays", 7 time in English and 9 times in French. (Delicious!). I have "The Universe in a Nutshell" right in front of me as I write these lines... and this book has been in front of me for over 5 years (coffee table). "George" is interesting. Loved "the Nature of Space" and "On the Shoulders of Giants" (a classic for any Astrophysicist, in my humble opinion, and some other Hawking's books I forget... except...
Stephen Hawking's "The Grand Design" brings him to war on logic. Yes, Alex, the meta-universe is faith in "nothing". That does not mean that Faith in God is for nothing. Again, philosophically, what is the difference between a Believer in Jesus and an Atheist?
A Christian lived a life of hope... and upward happiness... and then, when he dies, if there is nothing, then, he will have had a great life. The best... since his life had HOPE even if it was his only life.
An Atheist life... is... what? A "love of false knowledge"? To "think" that you have the "truth"? That is your happiness? One that offers no hope? The ultimate battle between God and "there is no god"? That is the life of an Atheist? Compare both and tell me which one you would prefer? Deep down, in all sincerity?
Your choice is not the higher ground and therefore it is illogical.
Thank God for Einstein. Whowwww. What a mind... and what amazing "logical" discoveries he brought to mankind and how it impacts generations to come.
Did he believe in God or not can hardly be responded by any of us on earth and I would leave that one to the DUDE Upstairs... cause, one does not say: "God does not play dice with the Universe" if he is a pronounced Atheist, in all moral scientific integrity. And then, as a Jewish Gentlemen, his "Atheism" would be perceived as being anti-Semitic in the religious sense...for many of his own so, on that one, I am not sure that any of us have the answer.
I suggest such a question should not be used too often.
This we know. Einstein was a gift from God to mankind. And as Scripture says: "God moves in mysterious ways..."
Oh, I am not a Scientist or an Astrophysicist and nor am I a Mercantile but a simple student in knowledge and a Disciple of my Lord.
Jul 17, 2014
YES indeed this is a MOST interesting discussion!!
Alexander: I really appreciate your questioning of things related to what claims to be The Word of God. You remind me so much of where I was 41+ years ago!! It is a good thing to logically evaluate and bring forth reasonable arguments when faced with such an important issue!! Who wants to simply 'gobble in stuff' just because others are doing it!! I am NOT like that myself.
I will not get involved in the 'exchange' between you and Philippe, but I do want to mention that often (it was the case for me!) the HARDEST STEP in relation to receiving the promises that are presented in the Gospel, is the FIRST STEP! That is the STEP OF FAITH. Logic and reasonings can lead us to that step, but there will come a time when one HAS TO MAKE THE 'FAITH STEP'. This is contrary to human nature.
"But without faith it is impossible to please Him (God), for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6
Christ did say: "Enter through the narrow gate... Small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13, 14
I understand that you don't accept Christ, His works and His words, but that is something that you have to deal with directly with Him...
'We' may try to bring you to the gate, but the gate is so narrow that only ONE PERSON can enter at a time...
"Now FAITH is being SURE of what we hope for and CERTAIN of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for." Hebrews 11:1
Jesus did have a 'serious' conversation with a man called Nicodemus who was a great intellectual , a pharisee and a member of the Jewish Ruling Party, back in the days... Christ said to him: "No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again... You should not be surprised at my saying, You must be born again..." John 3:3, 6
With my best wishes for you, Alexander... God bless!
_____________________Jul 17, 2014
- Dearyou always have the most poignant verses at the right time. I thank God for you. And I will get back to your recent unanswered question as soon as time permits but for the next few fays, I will be overtaken by one of my business full time. (I own Beach Houses and this is high season). Thank you for your patience. Jul 17, 2014
I really was NOT talking about religion, like you say. I was talking about a Living Relation with Christ... I don't consider myself as religious (I don't attend any church) and I don't think that I'm ignorant. Actually, having an open mind to various perspectives and evaluating those is a true sign of genuine 'intelligence'.
I know of many scientists who are 'educated' and who are not ignorant. They are very intelligent (most have Ph. D's in various domains and fields - biology, geology, astronomy, physics, etc.) and yet do acknowledge a living rapport with the Supreme Being.
Making 'sweeping' statements that are All-inclusive, never generated wholesome, useful discussions.
The apostle Paul was vehemently opposed to Christ and his followers, pursuing them and persecuting them. He was a very intelligent, religious person. And yet at one point he met Christ on his way to Damascus. From that point on, he discovered, not a religion because he already had a religion, but he discovered a living, real Relation with Christ. This is what we need...
Cheers!Jul 18, 2014
- Wow! Such deep logic! I will now 'sign off' on this exchange and leave the rest of this 'discussion' (??) (This does not sound like a discussion to me...) between you and. Maybe the Spaghetti MOSTER understands you more than I do...
AND I can see you trying to comfort a friend (or anyone) on their death bed with 'God doesn't exist'! How reassuring for them!!
Voltaire, a true atheist, died in AGONY not knowing where he was going!!
I do wish you Godspeed!
Cheers.Jul 18, 2014
- An end to a nice Thread.
Is Jesus of Nazareth God, yes or no?
1) Let us establish, as an ending to this Thread, that the world of Atheism and the world of Christ are two divided spaces that will never twine. They shall never reach each other. See it as 2 lines, side by side, never reaching each other and crossing far more that our Cosmos. They will never reach each other.
2) Christ has brought us SALVATION, HOPE and FREEDOM. He, in fact, brings us to ETERNAL LIFE. Atheism is a sad religious philosophy (yes, Atheism is “Faith based”) of negativism that ends somewhere else (but it isn’t good).
3) Alexander Black (black and white photo) was used in this Thread to advance our position and we are quite happy that we have achieved that. Mr. Black (what a suitable name for someone reserved to be suspended in total darkness, alone and with everlasting internal fire, separated from God and alone for all times). We could not have chosen a better candidate.
4) Mr. BLACK has demonstrated, flagrantly, his utter ignorance with his wasted time here. But “ignorance” in itself is not to be overly condemned. After all, we were all “ignorant”, as Christians, before we were touched by the divine. What is more humbling for our dear sad friend is his public demonstration of utter being, not only has he demonstrated to us Christians how obnoxious Atheist are (or can be) but his horrid judgemental mind towards other fellow human beings eloquently portrayed his own magnificent: FAIL
5) To Christians, do understand that some Atheists have a certain agenda. One expressed by Mr. Black. They want our destruction… but since they are already defeated by our Lord, their attempts will be to distract us… to spend time in never ending responses. That is simply a game. One that Christians are aware and do not aspire. I did, up to a limit. And we have reached that limit. Thank you Mr. BLACK.
Alexander Black asked a question (even if in his own soul, he does not want or will not accept any responses, as scientifically solid as it may be but continues game playing). So thus, let us play with an ending called “checkmate”.
Well, we shall respond to him, as an ending, for the benefits of Christians. (I do know that this Post was addressed to non-Christians… but that is only a ploy to advance the message of Christ. We were simply testing the grounds. How vulnerable are the Atheists? Now we know… and we also know far more. We were witnesses of blatant weaknesses, on intellectual levels, on a moral levels and on a human levels.
Let us now show you what we have learned.
Quotes from Mr. BLACK
Mr. BLACK writes: "the Bible … has never properly been evidenced by historical or archaeological records..."
Enough wasting my time. Simply read this: http://www.everystudent.com/features/bible.html#arch
SCIENCE (IN GENERAL)
Then, he writes: “…energy cannot be created or destroyed - it 'moves' from place to place…”
He probably does not know this but this is based on a theory (supported by Hawking) that has been recently denied by Science. It is based on Quantum Mechanics and is related to an atom.
The (now rejected theory) is that an atom is made of 3 main “larger” particles in its simplest form. Do remember that atoms of different chemistry elements have a different number but here, let us look at the simplest.
The nuclei, is made with a Proton (positive force) and a Neutron (neutral force) and then, there is the Electron (negative force).
The theory suggests that the Electron is impossible to be predicted (thus the war between Einstein and Hawking – Einstein saying that God does not play dice with the Universe while Hawking says God plays dice with the Universe
The theory (again proven wrong) suggests that not only an electron cannot be predicted but, the electron can be more than one place at the same time.
Therefore, Mr. BLACK is “outdated” on his limited knowledge. We can call that being “passé”. Out of date. Thus, the theory of the Black Hole remains physically impossible. Nothing producing something is an imposibility.
Again, from Mr. BLACK. A subtle insertion with absolutely no foundation is: "...the main theory Foveran ingredients the creation of matter…"
Of course, as he does all the time, he “might” have misspelled “Foveran”. But if you research such a name, you will come up with nice recipe or a village, … so let us stop our laughter and carry on.
The following is just another amusement for us.
Notice the spelling from a dude that presents himself as an Academic Atheists.
Atheist maybe, but I question whether he ever graduated from High School:
_"*Unfortunatly* the argument from fulfilment of life is another equally invalid one. To assume that people who do not beleive are somehow less fulfilled is simply elitist if nothing else, that in order for someone to get anything out of life they mustbelieve in God. That is simply a bad deal either way; believe ins one thing that cannot be verified...
At any rate, Christ is the ONLY one that gives a PURPOSE to our life. *Most people ask: “Why am I here”. Well, the answer is simple. To serve and glorify your God. _Christ has given you the only purpose there is._*
And our untrainable dude finishes with: "I too am enjoying this discussion, it is nice to, for once, speak to a theist who does not threaten me with eternal damnation every other line".
I don't need to remind you of your destiny. I leave that to God.
Since this is the END of our discussion on this current topic (for now), let me share with my beloved brothers and sisters the following FACTS for your edification.
Mr. BLACK suggested to our brother that it is a fact that anyone who believes in Christ is “intellectually” inferior, an idiot.
In essence, he was (again) insulting us with the idea that if you are a Christian, you are an idiot. If you are like him (Mr. BLACK), you are smarter than most.
I have read such studies and they make absolutely no sense. The most recent one suggested that Canadians are among of the most “intelligent” peoples of the world because most are Atheists.
As a guy from up North, here are the facts. Source Statistic Canada.
The 2001 census recorded 22,851,825 confessing Christians, compared to 22,102,700 in 2011
Canada’s population in 2012 was 34.88 million
Christians: (2001 census: 22,851,825)
Christians: (2011 census: 22,102,700)
That is close to 70% of "confessing" believers in Canada.
So how can Mr. BLACK base his assumptions on false studies? Cause he likes it. But between you and I (and I don't want to be unkind) but that vividly portrays in an eloquent clear fashion the utter pride and illogical persons with such precepts.
Now let us end with the “idiot” Christians in history (as Mr. BLACK calls them).
Remember, the following are not simply “believers” but “believers in Christ” our Lord:
Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Boyle just as a starter.
Then, there are these numbers to consider:
In the past 100 Years of Nobel Prizes (between 1901 and 2000), almost 79% of Nobel Prizes were given to Christians and 2/3 of the world’s Nobel Prize Laureates were believes in Christ.
Christian Winners of Nobel
Peace: 72.5% were Christians
And the list goes on and on and on… poor “idiots” (Mr. BLACK).
Here is a list of “Christian thinkers in science” through-out history, including now. (Please reader, read the "current Christian Scientists" for mind blowing information.
The very impressive link of the many is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science
This is our ending to this Thread (and thank you all for your wonderful participation).
We have many reasons to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is GOD.
We love you Mr. BLACK.
In HIM with a parting portion of the Book.
30 God therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, now enjoins men that they shall all everywhere repent,
31 because he has set a day in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by [the] man whom he has appointed, giving the proof [of it] to all [in] having raised him from among [the] dead.
32 And when they heard [of the] resurrection of the dead, some mocked, and some said, we will hear thee again also concerning this.
33 Thus Paul went out of their midst.
#philippepaquetteJul 18, 2014