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New post in my devotions blog! Took me long enough, I know. Let me know your thoughts!
Paul Basehore's profile photoMatthew Dawkins's profile photoJeremiah Summers's profile photo
I wonder how many millions of human lives have been murdered in the name of Jesus?
Just like how many people have been killed in the name of Atheism, I really don't have to wonder though..

Jozef Stalin 23 Million
Pol Pot 1.5 Million
Kim Il Sung 1.5 Million

(and others just this century)

It's funny because people always bring up the Crusades, which were sad and I am in no way minimalizing human life (though if you believe you're just hereon earth as a random mistake then you've already done that) but only 20,000 were killed. However most Christians and as the article as well demonstrates realize that though the Crusaders and others in history may have called themselves Christians, indeed they did not follow the teachings of Christ. I guess that would be like a mentally insane person claiming and thinking they're normal when their insane actions display something totally different. However it's up to the masses to actually be educated enough to know what insane actually is. Just like it's up to me to believe not every Atheist is for killing millions dispite not seeming to have as much as a respect for human life and its purpose as the Christian should have.
Good point Jman! Only 20,000 killed in the crusades? There's been more than the killing in the crusades for blood spilled in the name of your lord. AFAICT most Christians today still don't really follow the teachings of Jesus....

Anyways, my point is more this. Trying to prop up one person as a great example usually leaves you looking foolish. As an atheist I don't really have any "great atheist" figures to look towards for inspiration. Nor is atheism a collective group that you can brand. We just happen not to believe.
That's not true, there's books from Dawkins and various other atheists that can be seen as 'great atheist' figures in fact their philosphies are quoted quite frequently in almost every conversation I have with atheists, how many non important people are quoted as experts in certian subjects? The movement is called "New Athiesm", though it's pretty much the same arguments but with a more extreme twist. For exmaple claiming the eradication of religion would be more valuable to society then the eradication of rape. As Sam Harris has said.

I will agree with you that most Christians today don't follow the teachings of Christ, I will also point out that most modern day Christians will focus on the Love of Christ and of God sending him to die for our sins negating that Christ had to pay for our sins and take our judgement. That not only is God a God of Love but a God of fairness. God just didn't do away with our sin out of Love by giving us a second chance, someone had to pay for that second chance and the only person who could would have to be God himself, but man sinned out of their freewill, not God. So we get Christ, full man and full God. To pay our price. So God's character of fairness and love still stands, not at odds but together.

My point is sometimes love means disapline not just hugs and kisses. Sometimes it means dealing with very evil people regardless of the philosophy they claim, so we can have a world with love and without robots. However our hope is not in this world that has been fallen by our own choices to do evil, or by our lack of choice to do good, but in the perfect world that has been promised to us where we can know true Love being in the presense of God. That's a hope only the Christian has. In that world view we are inclined to find value in all because they were created by God and we want all to know the truth and be saved by accepting Christ as the payment for their sins and putting their hope and trust in him. Now it's their freewill to choose Christ as much as it's their freewill to do evil.
You may have a point about Richard. IDK I personally don't follow him much. I read a good quote today. Something to the effect. Extraordinary ppl talk about ideas, aver ppl talk about events and mediocre ppl talk about other ppl.

Personally, your responses sound drafted. Ie you have given the talk previously (You sound brainwashed). That's the biggest problem with practicing religions. They take the thinking out of being a living human being. They give you scripted responses for everything. For most that maybe fine (AFAICT everyone is ignorant about something), but its also the reason Christians aren't very good Christians (people use religion to disseminate false information). What's so hard about just being a loving, moral and good person?
+Matthew Dawkins Acting in love instead of hate was my entire purpose in writing this devotion.
Also, if you boys can't play nice, I'm going to have to separate you two.
First to answer your question it's no way scripted, I am in no way as brainwashed as the students in a classroom being taught Macro-Evolution as fact for which is still a theory (or has no parent law to be more accurate, where's the law it's trying to explain and what law does it explain?) after 200 years because there's no observable scientific evidance. It gets even worse when we start to read about string theories or Hawkins and his world being created in a vacuum (what created the vacuum or void?). These are all philosophies and beliefes that I don't have enough faith to believe in. I want something real, tangable, the truth. I know in reality when I stumble upon a watch in the forest I don't stop and marvel about how awesome nature is to put together a watch randomly that still has accurate time, no I assume someone lost their watch and someone of mild intellegance created it so they could loose it. So when it comes to random chance when men like Dawkins say even though the earth and everything around us looks created "to simply ignore it" then that to me is a discconect from reality. Also no idea is orignal but based on another idea.. so I really don't get your point about talking about ideas, whether you know it or not you're just expounding or basing your idea from someone else. I find it valueable as would anyone you know where the ideas I talk about are based on or from.

Also I know no person is good. If you took anyone man and examined his thoughts for a day, you'd find some of the most evil thoughts, at the very least a lie, or ill will towards someone. Trying to be 'good' begs the question what is good. How do I know my good is really doing good, or just being something horrically bad for someone else.

What is real good? There seems to be natural absolutes like gravity, friction. Then there's laws that we abide by knowing they are good, but who sets those? Where did we get those? Why do we have this need for perfection and goodness, a need for love? Obviously unless you're perfect I assume you can't do perfect good and know all good. Most likely like everyone else you try but fall short. When you follow Christ even when your good falls short (which it will) you're not judged by it. You will learn Love is a choice not something to fall in or out of. Just like your choice to show Christ you love him by trying to do good, but know it's only your trust and acceptance of him as God that allows you to truly be seen as good by the one who matters, and who created good, God. At one time humans knew Good without evil, we chose to follow evil instead and thus live in a world full of it. We still do that everyday and it's only through placing our hope and trust in Christ will we see a world without evil again.
+Paul Basehore
I mean no Ill will towards Matt and I'm pretty sure he knows that.
Yeah this is Jman and me...

Brainwashing is brainwashing. You're brainwashed by ~2k year old scripture and words written by man years after the fact. You can say evolution theory and that's fine, but I would go to say the same thing about your bible. Science is ever progression of learning and trying to find the truth. They rebuff old ideas all the time (but apparently not in the bible).

Again I like your last paragraph, but sounds already scripted. My question, is it only if you believe in Jesus when you fall short your won't be judged? I see short comings all the time. If you can't constructively criticize, then love ain't gonna fix your problems in the end. I just think of the 80/20 rule and remember tolerance and acceptance. I don't get why again religion gets mixed up with it. Forget Jesus, show your community your good will, be socially aware, and any other words of nonreligious wisdom on could say and try to make the place we call earth a better place. Honestly Christ/Jesus/God sounds like a middleman for what we both want.
Here's the thing about facts, it's hard to say someone is brainwashed by them. The fact is you say the bible was written years after the fact. However for the New Testament we have P51 which is a papryi that has been dated around AD 60 and has survived. The latest date it could be possibly put at would be AD 90. We can compare the verses on this page to the verses we have in our modern day Bible and in translation find them to be exact. From that Papryi on there's over 20,000 manuscripts we can compare over a 1,500 year time frame for accurracy. Not to mention the Dead Sea Scrolls that Old Testament has and various Old Testment Hebrew scripts.

Why is P51 important because it's only 30-60 years after Christ lived. That puts it in the time of people who where there when Christ walked the earth. Any of the scriptural evidence we find within the first 300 years christian or non never argue Christ's existance or even his miracles. Which would have been prevelant if he wasn't true as the Jews hated the Christians and Rome tortured and killed them for not worshiping Ceasure, but Christ. Why is there no text that says the Christians followed a man named Jesus, who never existed? There is no doubt that Christ lived or that the New Testament was written from AD 60 (what we have evidence for) to AD 90 (The Book of Revelation is placed at).

That alone presents more tangable believable evidence than evolution provides. A written book that we know is thousands of years old but is still accurate scholars of antiquity, christian or not marvel at the possiblity of such a text existing, it's been used to find cities, like Ninavah (in Jonah) and confirm various events that archiologists once thought never existed. Yet the Bible claimed true.

I Love science, more of the science of old that actually sought truth for problems rather then create new problems and then offer lack luster maybes. If science is now being used to find truth then why does evolution exist as a theory without a parent law? What truth is needed to be explained? and why? According to some scientists evolution only explains creation, or to some explains everything and for others explains nothing. Where's the tangable truth? Scientist now argue Lucy (a leg and knee once thought to be primitive man) was not man at all, or related to Homosapiens. What truth is being displayed? Why are we left with more questions then ever before?

It explains nothing because as physcological evolution is slowly proving, we can't weigh a thought. Human's self awaredness and our ability to feel love and emotions can't simply be explained by chemical reactions in the brain, or the material world in general.

Let's look a world where our decisions are just chemical reactions. Just random chance and the material. How then can we call Stalin or Hitler an evil man, if they were just puppets to chemical ractions? How can we say anyone is responsible for good or bad? Again what defines good and bad and what makes us seek "good" or perfection? In a completely material and chance world, there's no value for human life but what the single individual places it's value at. What makes your value of life right or wrong versus mine at that point? Who sets the absolutes? How do we have a right to define those absolutes or values?

So your argument of good apart from someone of higher authority then man (God) that sets it, is meaningless. How do you even know to define what's good and bad and who or what gives you the reason to do so?

So if I'm as a Christian going to fall short of doing absolute good anyways what's the point? The point is "All things work together for the good for those who Love God". Romans 8:28 Yeah that's scripted as much as a quoting someone from a text book to prove a point would be. My point is for the Christian God takes our futile attempts, our failures and even persicutions and turns them into true good. It's only because we chose to Love him through our acceptance of Jesus Christ and trying to do his will, they become truly good.

Now if you don't accept Jesus and follow his will then you're held under your 80/20 law, to which is imperfect. If you break 20 percent of a law, guess what you still broke the law. Beings you didn't accept the price Jesus paid you'll have to pay the price in full. This is why the Bible says "For the wages of Sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus" (Romans 6:23).

As I said before to the Christian (and of courcse to God) you have intrinsic value. God created you and wants you to be with him forever, however if you don't want to be with him he won't force you, believe it or not, it's not forced because he loves you. You can say I'm brainwashed that's fine, but I would rather be brainwashed knowing the truth, that there is a truth. Then brainwashed into believing in nothing, everything is matural happened by chance and I hold no value real value but fake feelings and emotions of chemical reactions. I like to be able to say that raping little girls is wrong and to know we can punish those who do aweful evils as such justily because it was actually their choice to do evil. No one wants to live in the world the Athiest/Natualist offers. No one truly can and no one truly does.
You know after reading your long-winded response last night, I said to myself wtf am I doing going back and forth with Jman for? I know he's a devoted Christian. I can sit here a pick holes in your responses all day and you're still gonna have you replies. Honestly, I don't wanna change your beliefs.

BTW 80/20 is a rule not a law. You should know that and have experienced it first hand in the FLOSS world.
I totally understand sorry my responses are so long winded. I try and give people the time to explain things the best I can. By any means I am not perfect and I apologize you have to deal with that.

If 80/20 rule (a rule is a type of law btw) is something you live by, what exactly is it? I mean something you based your views and life off of I would think would be well thought out as much as a law and treated as such. So is it something you just flippently throw out there in hope it sticks? Why even follow a law or a rule, what's your point of doing so?
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