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- If something is immaterial I don't see how it can affect the material world. The burden of proof is on you when you speak that god exists. I simply don't believe such a being exists. We live in a material world dearso asking for material evidence is needed. Sadly you are hardwired and indoctrinated into this myth.Sep 4, 2014
- In reverse order:
3) I wasn't indoctrinated into this "myth" (another word which doesn't mean what you think it does). I was anti-Christian until my conversion a couple years ago (must have been 2010? Maybe 2011?) In fact, I made much better anti-Christian arguments than the ones you've been presenting. So, this is just factually wrong. You know what they say about assuming things, right?
2) Shifting the burden of the proof. This is another logical fallacy. If I want to convince you God exists, then the burden is on me, if you want to convince me, the burden is on you. When someone starts shifting the burden of proof all on one side you can tell immediately their position is intellectually weak. Shifting the burden of proof is the last ditch move of someone who can't prove their position. I could just as well say that over 99% of humanity for the last 200,000 yrs (including 99% of people live today) has believed in some God or gods so the burden lies with the atheist to prove the overwhelming consensus of mankind is wrong and they are right. But then I too would be guilty of this fallacy. And before you retreat into "you can't prove a negative" I'll head you off by saying you certainly can. I can prove there are no lions in my room with me. I can prove Santa doesn't exist. I can all kinds of negatives - in fact proving anything entails proving a negative at the same time.
1) Well, because I've taken you to task on some of your nonsensical statements yesterday and today, let me congratulate you on a well formed philosophical question, how can God (an immaterial being) affect the material world. It is a question worthy of an extended answer, but I only have so much room. Science actually can point us in the right direction. First, think of your thoughts. They affect the material world, yet are immaterial. You might be able to see my brain, but you can't see my thoughts. Now, when I think of going downstairs and getting a Coke to drink and then do it, we see a perfect example of an immaterial thing (my thought "I'll go have a Coke now") affecting the material world, the world "we live in". Another example would be provided by contemplating the Argument from Contingency (that all beings can't be contingent or else nothing would exist). All material things are necessarily contingent, so there must be some immaterial thing that affects the material world to keep it in existence. Lastly, I'd point out that even if you were right and an immaterial being couldn't have any affect on the material world (which I've just demonstrated is patently false) you still wouldn't have proven immaterial beings don't exist, which is your position. Thus, this argument is both easily refuted and falls short of its goal.
In the end, you've proven what I said in my last post, that your atheism isn't a position of reason but of "faith" -
"I simply don't believe such a being exists."
That is a statement of faith no different than "I simply believe such a being exists," as such it is irrational. You simply choose (an act of will not intellect) to not believe, just as some people choose to believe.Sep 4, 2014
- Don't feel like reading so I will just ask. What evidence was shown to you that converted you? Also since you were not Christian before I guess you were like some wild Sodomite hurting and destroying all before you before old Ratzinger got to you.Sep 4, 2014
- Honestly, it would take a book to go through in detail my journey. As you're in no mood to read, I suppose you don't want me to wax on about it. I'll just quote what you didn't read above to answer your point,
You'll note, I never claimed atheists act immorally, just that morality depends on God's existence. Someone can not believe in gravity yet still fall to the ground. Someone can not believe in God yet still be moral. That has never been questioned.
IOW, you don't have to act immorally just because you don't believe in God. Atheists can be very moral people and Christians can be jerks. No one doubts that. Morality, to actually exist, however requires God. No God = No Morality (just personal or societal preferences). Again, that doesn't mean No belief in God = an immoral man. But if God doesn't exist, if morality is just something we (or society) make up, then nothing is really wrong, even murdering kids. Of course that is absurd. Which is just one piece of evidence for the existence of a moral lawgiver, who most people call God. When you look at it there are many, many things like that - all that point to only one possible explanation - God exists. The arguments for atheism are all very weak and easily refuted. Atheism, at the end of the day, can explain nothing about the world we live in and usually makes the mistake of thinking science can answer a metaphysical questions (a category mistake).
Did I do a bunch of immoral stuff before I was a Christian? Of course I did. We all do. Heck, I still do sometimes (which is why I'll be at confession this Saturday). Was I a "wild Sodomite"? No. But I wasn't tempted to be one, either. Would I have restrained myself if I was tempted to be one? Probably not. I didn't do a very good job at remaining pure until marriage with the people I was tempted by. Ah, but that is the great thing about God. He's always willing to forgive us. Every sinner has a future, every saint a past.
I know I hit this before, but you really can free yourself from your sexual desires. The site I recommended before (http://reclaimsexualhealth.com) is supposed to be very good (I don't have personal experience with it, but I've heard good things.) If that is too religious for you, check out http://www.nofap.org which is run by atheists and agnostics and has the goal of empowering men to abandon pornography and masturbation. It can be a tough struggle, but it is worth it.
But I see I've given in to verbosity again. I suppose you won't be much in the mood to read all this either.Sep 4, 2014
- Here is the thing. See you are right to say thinking it is okay to kill a child is absurd but that is by today's standards. In times gone past it wasn't absurd to do so. Morals changed.
Atheism is a lack of belief of any god. I don't know any atheist that says atheism can explain the world we live in. Science does that. But you say you still do immoral stuff. Well just how immoral would probably vary on who is viewing it. Also don't you see it as a huge cop out to say, no you personally saying, "I can go to confession and be absolved from sins". That isn't taking personal responsibility but just saying something to "god will forgive me".
Also I have no idea why Christians are so hung up on sex. It is like focusing on what one is denied.Sep 4, 2014
- Okay, fair questions. Quickly
1. People's opinion about killing children may change, but killing children is always wrong. People can be wrong about a lot of things. For example, people used to think the sun circled the Earth. They were wrong. People used to think it was okay to kill kids. Wrong, again.
Do you think it was morally okay for white men to own, sell, rape, and beat black men in the South because they thought it was okay? Was it okay then, even if it isn't now? And if so, was Lincoln wrong to end slavery?
2. I love science. Science is great for answering some questions, but cannot answer others (like why is there something rather than nothing or does God exist or is this immoral). Science can only explain so much. It takes philosophy to answer the "big questions" including questions like, does science tell us about the world or does it just reflect our thoughts.
3. No, its not a "cop out." Is it a "cop out" to mess up, say you're sorry, and vow to never make that mistake again in any other area of life? Why would it be with God? We're wounded by sin. God only asks for repentance and a willingness to leave behind our sins. If we fall He, like a good father, picks us back up. Don't you think it is a "cop out" to say morality is decided by you and whatever you like is a-okay?
4. We're not "hung up on sex" nor are we denied it. Our society is currently "hung up on sex" and the Church addresses the ills of her times. Not many people are building idols of gold and worshipping them, so we don't need to address that as often as we once did. If society wasn't unglued when it came to sex, we'd hear nothing from the Church on it.Sep 4, 2014