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Why US nuns should leave the Catholic church and form their own sect.

The Vatican issued a harsh rebuke this week of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, an organization representing about 80 percent of all Catholic nuns in America.

The reason is that the nuns had failed to make the opposition to abortion and gay marriage central to their agenda, and instead had been wasting their time on irrelevant objectives like helping the poor.

The Vatican also reprimanded the women for failing to obey the men. The Vatican flatly said that bishops alone "are the church's authentic teachers of faith and morals." Only men are allowed to become priests and bishops.

The Pope has given American nuns two choices:

1. Shut up, learn their place, obey the men, stop helping the poor so much and start focusing on the control of other people's sexuality; or

2. Break away from the church and form an organization that's in line with the values they believe in their heart are the true values of Christianity.

Which choice would Jesus advise?

http://news.yahoo.com/catholic-nuns-group-stunned-vatican-slap-000146265.html

(Pic props to Rockstar Games)
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317 comments
 
The Church seems to be too caught up in a) it's need to the only intermediaries between man and God b) maintaining it's authority and credibility. Those priorities will not serve it well.
 
Can't tell if American arrogance, or doing the right thing?
 
Can't they just be good Catholic women like Calista Gingrich!?!?
 
#2 i cant believe after everythig that has happened the church is still full of assholes.
 
And I say that as a former Catholic who reveres the nuns who taught him in school, and who still to this day persist, faithfully, in a seemingly anachronistic organization that still somehow persists despite its absurd patriarchy....
 
I am not a religious person, but some nuns touch me deeply with their sense of charity. Sister Helen Prejean, of Dead Man Walking fame, comes to mind. People like her should be running the Catholic Church.
 
#2 - They would become a power house on their own. Go sisters go!!
 
I thought the Catholic church approved women priests - did they not? Doesn't jibe with this.
 
Well, honestly, Jesus probably would speak out strongly against abortion. But reprimanding them for "spending too much time on poverty and social justice concerns" is the most mind boggling quote I've heard from a Christian group ever. Seriously.
 
There are many Catholics, like me, that are less than pleased with our current Pope. What a horrible thing these nuns are doing, helping the poor and all. Shame on them.
 
This story is great for showcasing how religion is flawed when people are flawed. Any belief, spiritual, philosophical or political, however good, can get ruined by assholes.
 
They should do what Henry VIII did - tell the pope to get lost...
 
red dead redemption pic :)
 
It is attitudes like there's that drive people away from church not towards. In my opinion they are out of touch with the teachings of Jesus and they only hurt there cause. Stop with the rules, start with love.
 
Their view: preventing murder vs helping the poor.
 
The Pope is simply an over glorified distraction from Christ, himself. The Vatican must have a skewed sense of what true faith and pure religion is. Instead of helping the sick, poor, widowed, and lost in faith, lets focus our power on saving the gays! This phrase is used too often in old world religions. James 1:27 would be an amazing biblical verse to show that the Vatican, as it describes what a pure religion is made off. Compassion and charity are the virtues that the Universal Catholic Church, as well as any other church, must understand, as these virtues are the basis of what anybody should stand for, whether they be homosexual, christian, atheist, destitute, or any human.
 
It's shameful that organizations engaging in illegal gender bias (read: churches) are considered moral authorities. And they get tax benefits at that.
 
Well I'm going to plead the 5th on this. 
 
This only shows how a primitive social construct attempts to resist changes demanded by the present social order and then wonders how they've become irrelevant.
 
+Nirnimesh . It's shameful that an organization that has engaged in the systematic cover up of the sexual abuse of children could be considered to have any moral authority at all.
 
It still amazes me by how Many Christians are Ironically NOT Christian. But it is actually worse at the Vadican, wow... I see most people should leave religion in general unless they can grow up!
 
+Aaron McLin Guess I heard wrong then.

And about the original post, as always with people in power, "Do as I say, not as I do."
 
this picture is off of red dead redemption- undead nightmare! you can see the wepons only used by them and the zombies!
 
Seems rather shrill and biased to me. Not surprised at all, I knew the media would ramp up a campaign against this, but it won't work. I agree the hammer has fallen, but that's about all I agree on. These nuns are going to have to choose whom they will serve. I'm not a Roman Catholic, but there are a few obvious points I'd like to bring up:

1. The "central to their agenda" and "helping the homeless" bit is a giant red herring. Catholic moral teaching is a seamless garment. It is not a cafeteria where you can pick out a little social justice and reject the protection of innocent life in the womb while keeping the commitment to protect those innocent lives on death row. The Catholic Church has always been pro-life. If these nuns don't like that, it seems they knew it going in and are trying to change Catholic teaching by political activism. That's not the way Roman Catholicism works.

2. It's really not a matter of "obeying men." The Roman Catholic Church does not allow women's ordination, and never has. It seems these nuns, if they want to become priests or bishops, are members of the wrong faith. They'd be better off joining the Unitarians, or some other sect that allows women's ordination. Rome is not going to change 2000 years of unbroken Christian teaching on this. If they did, then it seems to me they would hardly qualify as "Catholic."

I do think you have something with choice #2. These nuns took vows of obedience to the Church, including the moral teaching of that Church. If they've changed their minds or can't in good conscience live with those vows of obedience, they should notify their superiors and either retire or (just as you suggest) transfer to a sect that allows for a much more relaxed or non-existent form of the regula fidei.
 
This is the death spasms of the old Catholic church. They see churches closing and their power waning, so they have to try and show power some how.
 
+Daniel Stoddart You wrote: "It seems these nuns, if they want to become priests or bishops, are members of the wrong faith."

That's my point exactly. They do and they are.
 
They forgot to send them to the kitchen...

This is why I have considered becoming a buddhist nun. I have a hard time sitting in mass for family ceremonies...
 
Love the picture! Goes well witht he post.
The problems with organisations (religious or otherwise) is that they will always end up with an agenda that you need to either adopt as your own, or leave.
 
That's true and my view someone, either Man, or Woman feels the need to be in control. 
 
I think most of you guys who are flaming the current pontiff are forgetting that he is actually bringing the Catholic Church back toward how it was run for the past several hundred years before the Pole took office. The fact that this leaves a bad taste in your mouth is probably because you have a smattering of sense, and possibly a level mind when it comes to women's rights. The fact that you still identify as Catholic is probably just vestigial from your upbringing.

The Catholic Church is in the business of making money, keeping women beneath men, and keeping the poor, poor. It has been since its inception. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it.
 
Really, I find it surprising that so many people want to call themselves Catholics, while still rejecting the fundamental teachings of that church. It seems just a tad hypocritical to me. Taking one of these points for example - Bishops have been in charge ever since the first century A.D., it's not like that's a new concept. Surely somebody growing up as a Catholic, or entering the Catholic church should be made aware of this. The church has a hierarchy, and that's part of what you accept by labeling yourself "Catholic".

Now there's nothing wrong with women going off and serving the poor in whatever way they see fit. That's an admirable idea. However, it is hypocritical when they want to serve the poor in their own way, and call themselves "Catholic" while ignoring what the church teaches - and has always taught.

As you say - if these women don't hold to the Catholic teaching on abortion and homosexual relationships, they should simply stop calling themselves Catholic.

But if they still want to call themselves Catholic, they should stick to the rules of this Church. It's pretty simple! :)
 
I like your Christ but I don't like your christians. They are so unlike your Christ.
(Mahatma Ghandi)
 
+David Webb I couldn't agree with you more. And it's clear that most American nuns do not agree with a lot of the basic realities of the Catholic church, which is why I say they need to strike out on their own.
 
Mike I agree with you. Let me ask you if they decide to go out on there own do you think they will be respected still and not be treated badly. 
 
Rigid authoritarian ideology is often exhibited in the last gasps of any declining empire. The Vatican is no different.
 
+David Webb - I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with your statement. There have always been disagreements in everything from government, military, education, family life and so many other things. And, yes, most definitely in religion. Changes for the better will never happen if there are never any disagreements. I see changes coming in the Catholic Church. Will they happen under the watch of Pope Benedict? I seriously doubt it. But they will happen. Not only do many Catholics like myself believe this but so do many Nuns, Religious and Priests. If everyone that disagreed with the Church on some issues were told to leave the Church, there would be a whole heck of a lot less Catholics in the world.
 
Honestly, when I was ten after meeting my great uncle, a bishop in Mexico, it was like finding out that Santa wasn't real... The catholic church is just another political system... He was this great big macho bigot, even at 87... Ack!
 
The Pope doesn't "give" the nuns choices, these women make choices for themselves. Solid commentary aside, the reductive opining is cliche at best - particularly those by what appear to be "men."
 
When i was in 1st grade and 6 years old my teacher asked " how do you respond to an idiot , shallow minded , zealot ,extremist ? I stood there speechless for 5 or so minutes , til she said " GREAT ANSWER "
 
I think you don't understand Christianity. I don't agree with the Catholic church, but the Bible is pretty clear that the leaders are to be men (actually, married men). However, the nuns should still be able to state their priorities without being reprimanded.
 
I heard Sister Simone Campbell discuss this on the radio today and they the LCWR seems to be more devout then the male leaders. Kudos to them and I'm not Catholic. Hear the facts before you form an opinion...
 
+Daniel Stoddart - I just read your post, great points you've got there!

+Chad McCullough - " If everyone that disagreed with the Church on some issues were told to leave the Church, there would be a whole heck of a lot less Catholics in the world." - Actually I think that would be a good thing. After all, there are plenty of protestant denominations for those who want to be Christian but not accept some teachings of the Catholic church. Even if there were only a few million Catholics left in the world who all agreed on the same principles, that would be much better IMHO than the 1.5 billion we have today, where most of them are half-hearted.
 
WWJD?

If the church is not following Jesus Christ's teaching, then WHY staying with THE church?!
 
+Chad McCullough Interesting. Do you believe in papal infallibility? How do you reconcile disagreements with papal doctrine and dogma? Do you believe that you know better than the Holy See, or the Bible, where much of doctrine is derived?

What I find interesting is that many Catholics find certain things distasteful about Catholicism, and renounce them on the grounds of it being "not in line with current society" and yet there is a feeling of objective morality that is derived from the Bible, things that transcend time. If the Bible is truly the word of God, wouldn't it all be transcendent, objective morality?
 
For everybody piling onto the nuns: they claim they actually support all of the Catholic doctrines - including their stances on abortion, birth control and homosexuality. They aren't asking to be ordained as priests.

The Catholic Church has always had orders of priests and nuns devoted to many different callings. It's hard to see this sudden insistence on monolithic consolidation as anything more than ridiculous and political.

Also, it's a bad move. The Church is looking more and more stone-age by the minute, this really sharply highlights the Old White Male image of Catholic leadership in the public eye. It makes them look ridiculous, myopic, and vindictive to anyone with functioning critical faculties.
 
I fully admit I have not read the article and simply love the bad-ass pic.
 
Very end of the world, when a nun has to bare arms.
 
And I thought the ruler across the knuckles was bad.....
 
Sorta looks like a Red Dead Redemption DLC cover
Red dead redemtion: HOLY GRITS
 
He may be infallible...but maybe the pope's a little bonkers.
 
Eric Swiger's comments are significant examples of the American Bishops lack of credibility .Not many pay attention to them, but they don't realize it (evidently).
For me, their lack of credibility started with the Church's reasons for concluding that " the pill" was morally wrong. The minority opinion of the Special Commission formed to study the issue (adopted by the Pope) was based on two rationales: (1) the "slippery slope argument" - if we accept the pill we will soon be accepting abortions; and (2) if we say the pill is OK, we will have been wrong in the past, and we know we can't be wrong. (The Commission's majority opinion - rejected by the Pope - was that the pill was morally OK.)
To be consistent with the Bishops' present rationale that women can't be Priests and Bishops because they are not men, many present bishops should be discharged because they are not Jews. Jesus's 12 Apostles were all Jews, were they not? In fact, since Jesus was undoubtedly himself a Jew, it raises questions about the present Pope's authenticity.
 
Maybe the nuns can perform the abortions? It is after all the sacrament of illiberals and regressives. They could be the first eugenicist nuns. Followers of saint Margaret Sanger.
 
At first I was horrified that the Catholic church would even have a pope that had been a member of the Hitler Youth equivalent as a child.

Then again, if you look back at how the Catholic church started, the origin of the split from what is essentially the Eastern Orthodox Church, and what succeeding Popes since have been guilty of...it should be no shock to anyone that the Catholic church is doing what it feels justified to do in consolidating power.

It is still one of the most powerful organizations in the world, but it is losing that power by the day. Organizations that feel threatened tend to saber rattle to make themselves and others feel like they have not lost their clout.

I imagine a fair percentage of even devout US Catholics barely pay much heed to the misadventures going on in Rome.

The church decrees, but those decrees are and have been by fallible men for some time. Men that can be ignorant, prideful, and more concerned with self interest than their supposed duty.

By the way, I have always believed that taking God's name in vain isn't about screaming his name when you hit yourself with a hammer. I have always felt it was really about saying your voice is the same as God's and presuming to speak for God.

Defining God's rules to apply to others based on your interpretation of truth has to be the definition of arrogance if not outright hubris.
 
The nun has been a staple of the Vatican as the religoulsy pure example of what the Vatican's idea of a women should be, so for the Vatican to give a choice to the nuns is already a big leap for them. Choice is a big gift to the nuns, and if I were the Vatican, I would let the nuns have their sect. But a indviudal nun sect, they would fall apart, because I think they won't have the finical or social support to operate on their own.
 
"...been wasting their time on irrelevant objectives like helping the poor." - Wasting the helping the poor? What, In the name of God is it they say that the nuns are wasting on? theyre helping the poor. what more could be noble than that?
 
You do as you are ordered by one of Hitler's followers.
 
Reminds me of many Muslim photos I have seen before...
 
I think the nuns should follow Christ and let him be the guide. Praying is the best reflection of god. This is a little like Martin Luther(For you young one's he was a priest that separated from the church, there is a movie out there you can watch).
 
As nuns, they take vows of poverty and obedience. The authority of Christ was passed to His apostles see Mat 16:18 when the authority was given to Peter, the first pope. Then again, the authority to forgive and retain sins was given to the apostles in John 20:23. This is how Jesus Christ founded His Church on earth. Being obedient to this authority is being obedient to Christ. It has nothing to do with women's rights. The Church has a hierarchy to spread the Truth. Abortion has killed 54 million babies in the US alone. This makes it an important issue.
 
of course the first visible comment on this thread is now about muslims....every single dialogue about anything interesting or relevant is somehow always about muslims now.....great
 
shut up nuns are nuns and thats that they are catholic and they are proud of it and fyi nuns wont leave that catholic church
 
they deserve to be human...not any longer an angel
 
Sister Genevieve could have kicked the Pope's ass without breaking a sweat. Last I heard she was married. Trying to imagine who would marry her bent my brain out of shape.
 
+Bradley Woodward Please note that the Catholic bishops did not "reprimand them for spending too much time on poverty and social justice concerns." That is purely +Mike Elgan's opinion, not that of the bishops. Let's not twist it, please.
 
The sisters are not slaves. there was no authority set up by Christ, and Paul taught that there was a need for women to follow men, but it was for safety because in those long ago times men ruled. Had JC come during our times, women would have equality. The pope and bishops are not christlike in demanding subservience by women to men.
 
+Mike Elgan I can't believe you posted this. Clearly you know little about the Catholic Church. You typically stick to your area of expertise. Not to mention, it only entices anger and hate speech against the Catholic Church (see the vile comments to your article). Please don't be divisive in the future. Stick to what you know. As a public (Google Recommended) figure, you have responsibilities in what you post. Google+ has Circles for a reason. This article does not belong in your public feed, in my opinion. If you choose to post it, at least get your facts straight, then call out those who use your platform as their springboard of hatred, disrespect, and intolerance; qualities they erroneously point out in others.

I am surprised no Catholic has pointed out some obvious problems with this entire argument as they are filled with half-truths and biased positions.

I am Catholic and have spent a great deal of time studying what the teaching of the Catholic Church are and why they are taught.
When a woman chooses to become a nun/sister, she must do so of her own free will (that is between her and God). Second, there are several stages postulancy, novitiate, temporary profession, final vows to be sure she knows what she is doing. In addition, she still may leave, but again, that is between her and God.
Now, during these many years, typically between 6-9, she receives constant instruction and should be deeply practicing meditation, prayer, and devotions.
Furthermore, many nuns are sent to private and public universities for studies, paid for by the Catholic Church. They have no expenses that are not paid for by her order or donated by someone specifically.
My point...if a company paid for your college, you signed a contract (vow), they paid all your expenses, you have many years to voice objection or change your mind in your life's work (vocation) or otherwise steer the course of the organization, you will know exactly what you have got yourself into.

By the way, today, unfortunately, very few nuns work with the poor or run hospitals, or the like. Most cannot be identified as a nun because they no long wear religious habits, surrendering it for a distinctive "pin" or something of the sort.

In closing, how many of you know that the Catholic Church holds the mother of Jesus, in the highest place of honor among created beings? Yes, a woman. And the Rosary (a series of prayers asking Mary to intercede before her Son, is the single most widely know object identified to Catholics. Mary is far above the pope and St. Peter himself. Again, highest above all God's creation...a woman. Also, the patron saint of philosophers (thinkers, visionaries) is St. Catherine of Alexandria, who is most famous for challenging (correcting) the pope of her time.
 
Allow me to expand on my previous comment, the photo reminds me of Muslim extremists.
 
these priests and popes try to control the sexual habits of everyone else, why cant they just worry about themselves. they are the one caught up in scandals involving alter boys, and they think being gay is wrong??? come on now. god will judge us all in the end, if god does in fact exist. so thats why all the people who dislike the catholic church dont want anything to do with them. mysogonistic clowns.
 
brb, going to offer those nuns my sword shotgun whatever assistance I can give them.
 
this pic looks familiar.....
oh its from the READ DEAD NIGHTMARE
 
Keith, what part of the post is wrong? You say get "your facts straight", but this post is Mike's para-phrasing of the article linked. The only "fault" I can see is the 2 points, which seems to be his interpretation of what the Pope is essentially expressing to the nuns...
 
first of all, that nun looks like a guy, secondly they shouldn't watch John Woo movies.
 
3. Break away and see mental health professionals about their sickly obsession with self-loathing, hatred of people and progress, and psychotic delusions about invisible people monitoring their minds 24/7, punishing them or rewarding them in ways that can only be understood in retrospect, after arduous speculation.
 
4.Thats awful i have a family member that is a nun and i find that EXTREMLY RUDE!
 
"Which choice would Jesus advise?":
I guess he would find a wise creative way of avoiding that artificial binary conflicting question.
No question that Jesus' priorities are on solidarity with the poor and opressed, not on organization or sexuality. However he would find a way to ask a different question that leads to an unexpected answer.

I do agree that the hierarchical church is wrong in emphasizing it's (e.g. mens') authority and grasp on all truth. However if the nuns reacted by forming their own church in opposition they would probably be heading toward the same type of mistakes. They would basically be playing the same wrong game.
This whole game is wrong. Jesus would find a different game.
 
WTF!!!! is this you idiots need to get lives!!!
 
+Keith Fick I'm not a nun -- you can't tell me what to say. I'll post on whatever I like. If you don't like what I post, then uncircle and/or block me.

Meanwhile, to address your comment, It's indisputable that the LCWR is in disagreement with the Catholic church on a great many issues. Their values on many issues are different.

So the nuns have to either obey, or leave.

Which part of this post do you disagree with?
 
"If You're A Praying Man I'd Start."
 
W O W ! ! ! ! I thought we are supposed to accept people for who they are, not what they are and all people are equals... or am I getting thugs crossed ??
 
Yes it is true you not nun +Mike Elgan so you shouldn`t tell them what to do. Just stick to what you know next time
 
+Keith Fick Also, your point about Mary is an irrelevant one. Thousands of religions and cultures lionize some specific abstract female figure, but treat actual women like chattel. The Athenians, for example, was named their city after the goddess Athena. Yet Athenian women were supposed to stay indoors, not be educated, accept the fact that they had no rights as citizens and essentially serve their husbands as his property. Having statues of Athena didn't change the fact that they believed women to be totally inferior.

The fact is that the Catholic Church officially believes women to be inferior, and inadequate to the task of being priests.

A lot of nuns disagree with their lowly station in the Catholic church, and call for women to be allowed to be priests.

It's a disagreement, and the church probably isn't going to change it's position. So that's why I believe the nuns should abandon the church en masse, and form a new sect that, among other things, allows women priests, bishops and popes.
Jake Yde
+
9
10
9
 
I've read quite a lot of this thread, and I apologize but I can't read any more. It seems as more and more time goes by it is becoming more and more fashionable to dislike the clergy and even the church. In my time I've met many angry and confused souls, they have all had my sympathy and attention. As far as Catholicism goes the dogma and doctrine are all pretty clear on what being a Catholic means. If people do not agree with Catholicism then they are not Catholics. It's pretty simple. This doesn't mean they are bad people or there is anything wrong with them. The Catholic faith doesn't "change with the times" because as mentioned before if it did it would NOT be Catholicism. It would be some derivative of Catholicism.

That said you won't see myself or any of the Priests I know here denouncing anybody's opinions. You all have the right to feel however you wish. God loves you regardless. Jesus died for our sins regardless. What I'm sure other clergy will agree with me on is that both Papal decree and Vatican law are clear. They are not open for interpretation. I'm sorry if that offends anybody but that is simply the way it is. You either follow Catholicism or you don't. shrugs If you believe in some derivative of Catholicism, then you are simply not Catholic, you are some derivative of Catholic. You are still loved all the same.

Please, remember, it was Jesus who said "Matthew 7
1Judge not, that you may not be judged,
2For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3Any why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?
4Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?
5Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." Those are not the words of the Church, those are the words of Christ himself

+Mike Elgan I am curious as to why you felt the need to post this. Would you care to discuss?
 
Many orders have already secularized during the past thirty years. I am neither a Christian nor pro-religious oders of any sort, however, I applaud these ladies for asserting their own true values!
 
I think we really need to clear up a few things here:

In a related article:

"The Vatican has issued a scathing condemnation of the main association of Catholic nuns in the United States for taking liberal stances on contraception, homosexuality and female priests."
http://news.yahoo.com/vatican-condemns-us-nun-group-over-liberal-stances-151017436.html

It's not failure in include abortion, contraception etc. into their agenda but rather "taking liberal stances" on these issues.

Also, the Vatican didn't say that they are wasting their time on the poor. In the same article:

The report, which follows a three-year investigation, also recognised however the value of LCWR's activities in the United States "particularly in the many schools, hospitals and institutions of support for the poor".

I can't find any copy of the original report from the Vatican. That and we are being confused by contradicting news articles from Reuters and AFP.
 
I feel like we're not getting the full story with this article. There's got to be more to it than that. Interesting topic, but sorry I'm not going to form an opinion based on this ill informed attack on the Vatican.
 
+Jake Yde I tried not to post something on this issue, but finally felt compelled when the reaction of the LCWR was published. For example, the executive director of Network said the Vatican's reprimand was "like a sock in the stomach."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/04/19/150986066/sister-simone-campbell-vatican-reprimand-like-a-sock-in-the-stomach?ps=cprs

Thousands of women have devoted their lives to a cause that they believed was one thing, but they woke up to learn that they're serving an entirely different set of values, and they're serving a value system that discriminates against them because of who they are.

I'm sick of people wasting their lives serving some mediaeval and obsolete set of ideas, and support people taking action and living according to their own values.

Bottom line: American nuns don't have to take this shit. They can tell the Vatican to shove it, and form their own sect. And that's what I think they should do.
 
I agree that there is no way for either the laity or nuns to change the Catholic system from within. There is not enough respect for either for that to occur. They may need to move on...
 
And what happend to you +Mike Elgan at the hands of the Catholic church?

Organised religion is exactly that - organised. Worship involves ritual and structure and those who choose that path for their lives accept that. Catholicism isn't one of those pick n' mix McChurches that are so popular in the US, where you can choose the good bits and leave the difficult stuff behind.

You seem to have presented what is obviously a tricky problem concerning faith in a very narrow way to serve your own agenda. You have absolutely no right.
 
+Daryl Baines The Vatican gave the organization an either/or. The nuns' top priority has been helping the poor. The Vatican has ordered them to reconsider their priorities and obey the men and fight against abortion rather than help the poor so much. It's not "Do this AS WELL as that.", It's "Do this INSTEAD of that."
 
+Romain Baron Nor will you find such a statement in my post.

I made it clear that the Vatican is imposing a different set of priorities -- controlling other people's sexuality (this from an organization that protects child mollesters) rather than the nuns' priorities, which include helping the poor.

See my previous post. Your so-called "argument" is a fallacy called a "straw man argument" where you misrepresented my views, then attacked your misrepresentation: http://www.yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
 
Are both choices mutually exclusive??
 
The truth is not hidden just ignored as the truth of the Catholic Church is ignored by Catholics. If Peter was apostle to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles how could God make Peter and not Paul head of the first Gentile Church? Baptized and educated 12 yrs. in Catholic schools I have not one bad word to say about Nuns and the Carmelite order of "priest" and brothers for they were a rebel order. It is the love of the truth that separated me from this church of man made righteousness. In my whole experience all I can say is you can't beat a Catholic education and that the Nuns are more sincere and dedicated to their mission than most "priest". More power to the Nuns!!!
 
+Daryl Baines On the contrary, my right is absolute. It's called the first amendment to the US constitution.

I presented an argument, and you have presented no counter-argument. Until you do so, I will assume that you have no counter argument, and that you agree with everything I've said.

All you've done is to imply that my views are the result of a personal issue. You've criticized a strain in American religion, which I have nothing to do with. And you've falsely said that I have no right to comment about a rift in the Catholic Church.

Here's an idea. Why don't you specifically disagree with something I've actually said. Let's have a debate.
 
very well said, +don leflore. I would rather choose no.2.. had similar experience too!
 
+Susan McHugh I asked a very specific question: Which choice would Jesus advise?

Does your understanding of the bible lead you to believe that Jesus would prefer nuns submit to patriarchy and emphasize the modern, right-wing political issues of opposing abortion and gay marriage, or emphasize social justice and helping the poor?

Honestly.
 
When Jesus told us to form churches, He said it was to join together with like customs, knowledge and teaching the laws of the Lord. There is nothing in the Bible about nuns and what they should or should not do. Jesus alone is the Head os the church!
 
Ever thought about looking at the Church's teachings on women? I don't think so, otherwise, you'd see the incredible amount of reverence she has for women.
 
It is evident that Jesus' focus was on solidarity with the poor and weak. Not exactly on political social justice and certainly not on power, hierarchy and monopoly of truth.
 
+Keith Fick and others above: Thanks for standing up against the hypocrisy of this post by +Mike Elgan. I am a devoted Catholic and am friends to many who have chosen the religious life, both male and female. These ones I know are extraordinary and beautiful people, soft-spoken, joyful, and meek. I can't speak for all religious communities, but the ones in my life are unified in their Faith and surely do not apply to the nuns reported on in this situation. In my city there is a vibrant and active Catholic community. I saw six people get baptized on Easter, and many more welcomed into the Catholic Church during a packed Vigil Mass. Contrary to what many people claim online, the Church is growing, especially among young people. There is a lot of admiration for the current pontiff, and many young Catholics are more traditional than their parents and appreciate the good work Pope Benedict has done to unify the Church.

Many who criticize the Church and spew hateful bigotry against people of faith are oftentimes misled about what the Church stands for and what goes on. They'll take something they read in the media, and twist it around and attack the Church publicly - out of fear or jealousy, perhaps. Perhaps more Catholics are not more vocal online because many choose to pick their battles wisely and focus. Many of the more devoted Catholics I know live highly interior lives. As a Catholic, you are taught that you will face adversity, taunting, and hatred. Enduring Faith through prayer and love of Christ despite being shunned by a majority of your peers is an act of love towards God. Being humble, turning the other cheek, and seeking to change the world through one's example are the lessons we are taught. Perhaps less Catholics are seen refuting the anti-religious arguments on sites like Google+, Facebook, and Reddit, because it is simply not the route they would like to take to practice their apostolate.

The post above is patronizing, arrogant, misinformed. I would simply encourage my fellow Christians to remain strong in the face of adversity, especially while online, where it is much easier for others to make misinformed attacks while surrounded by like-minded people. Information you get from posts like this and from the media might not be portraying an accurate picture of the current state of the Catholic Church.
 
Hey, you know who were really cool Christians, relatively speaking? The Quakers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers

They believed that everyone was equal -- men, women, children, slaves - everyone.

They believed that religious authority was an oxymoron, and that churches were an abomination.

They believed (unlike church authorities in their day) that the "light" of Jesus Christ was not bestowed upon church authorities exclusively, but existed in the hearts of every human being.

I'm not a Quaker or a Christian, but doesn't that sound closer to what Jesus actually said than "you must obey us and more actively oppose gay marriage"?
 
One day there will be a backlash against all religions. Men will finally realized we're alone in the universe and God ain't gonna save our asses.
 
Just a thought, but I don't think they would be Catholic Nuns if they didn't believe strongly in the authority of the Church.

Also your statements in the original post are a bit one sided for something that claims to be supporting the rights of the minority here which, judging by the popularity of your post, seems a little bit counter intuitive for what you say you are trying to do. Although I suppose may not be what you really mean, but I tend to like it when those things are the same.

Now its likely that neither you nor most of the people who read this will agree with me, but that just goes to prove my point of who's protecting the minority here.
 
+Jared Haman Yes, my post is "one sided." It's the side I'm on, against the Catholic Church and in favor of the nuns. Why is that a criticism. What kind of opinion is both-sided?
 
+Mike Elgan Thanks for commenting back. I have a lot of respect for you and will continue to follow/circle.
I was not pontificating to you, only questioning your motivation for posting an uncharacteristic article. I was not telling you what to say, only to be mindful of what you do post. I would just like to see you call out those who post the vile things above. Is that not just?

I do not question your statement that the LCWR is in disagreement with the Vatican. You are correct that as an organization, claiming to be under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church, they will need to do something, either as a collective or as individuals. The fact is, if they wish to continue to call the organization "Catholic" they need to hold to the same teachings as the Catholic Church. Just as I cannot claim to be something I am not.

The problem I have with your post is that you frame this as a gender issue primarily "women for failing to obey the men...Shut up, learn their place, obey the men." The Vatican has corrected and cinctured male religious orders, individuals, and priests in the past and present (Martin Luther). Is the Vatican out of line for this? For telling people when they are no longer holding to their teachings? Just as you suggest, maybe the nuns should leave. The problem here is that we are talking about an organization (LCWR) made of individuals who don't all agree with one another. So really a suggestion that those who disagree should leave would be more appropriate.

By the way, the Church has a lot to say about following your conscience ( http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a6.htm ). They just say that you cannot claim to be a public representative (a nun's vows are a public statement) of the Catholic position if you are not stating the Catholic position, especially when it is an organization.

To address your other response to me...You characterization of Mary is not accurate, at least by analogy. Mary is not an abstract figure, not a story. She is a historical person, not a theological one.

You state that the Catholic Church "officially believes women to be inferior and inadequate to the task of being a priest." This is incorrect. To make such a statement needs to be cited. The Catholics teach that men and women have equal but distinct characters, neither one being inferior. Now "inadequate to the task of being a priest" is an odd phrase. The teaching has nothing to do with ability. Believe me, there are many priests I know who make poor witnesses to Christ in their lack of ability. The Church sees this as a distinction of character, and certainly not one of superiority. Any priest who thinks he is above another is not living out his priesthood to participate in the sufferings of Jesus. To debate this teaching is not appropriate for this article, I believe. Perhaps another time.

Nuns do not have a lowly state. See my above comments about priests being called to suffer. They are to die to themselves for the sake of others. We all fail from time to time though in what we wish of ourselves.

The nuns don't necessarily need to form their own sect, as there are many available who are in more agreement with the LCRW. In fact, I imagine they would find much solidarity and comfort.

Speaking about these matters can light a match of argument and debate. I was mostly pointing out that you began the argument with some false premises that I though needed a voice of correction as I saw no one stepping up (at the time). Also, I did not hear you calling for commentors to be respectful of others as people, who they happen to disagree with. It led me to believe that with your silence, you agreed with them and their hatred. Remember, the Catholic Church is not a faceless organization, it is made up of some of your faithful readers like me.
 
I'm not seeking to start a debate here, but have you read any responses at all? Did you go into the issue or just read the Yahoo article?

Also, against the Catholic Church but in favor of the nuns? That's very similar to saying your against the Democrat party but for Obama. The way Papal issues like this work doesn't exactly give a lot of room. They are authoritative and, like the constitution, no branch of government can disobey it, just like no branch of the Church can disobey this. Either you agree with it, or you cease to be a nun, that pretty much the extent of it. You can't both be a nun and not be part of the church, it doesn't work that way. And honestly, if Nuns leave because of something as relatively small as this, there probably wasn't much keeping them around anyway.
 
+Mike Elgan I just realized that you may have blocked/deleted some of the more particularly nasty remarks. If so, thanks.
Jake Yde
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+Mike Elgan Okay, I understand according to your post in response to me that you felt compelled you had to speak out for these nuns. You feel they have been slighted and that they are being discriminated against. Let me ask you this in the vein of your own "your logical fallacy is" vein. Were these nuns not intimately aware upon taking their vows their responsibilities in the eyes of the Church and including the authority of the Vatican, the Pope, and all the laws and regulations associated therein, up to and including not qualifying for priesthood or positions of Bishop, etc.? You yourself were aware of it, weren't you? if they knew ahead of time, then surely it can't be much of a surprise. Also are you not fully aware of the Church and the Vatican's stance on contraception, and other such issues? If you are and by your own admission you have issues with the Catholic church how can these nuns say it is a shock to them?

I can tell you this from personal experience, vows are not something ANYBODY should take lightly, to do so is to invalidate the sacredness of such. I have not nor will I ever take a vow I do not personally agree with 100%. Should I find that I can no longer uphold a vow I have willfully and knowledgeably taken, I will sadly bow my head and withdraw from such. Given the length of time seminary takes, all the work many religious figures put into theological studies, and how much sacrifice is put into service of God through our Holy Mother Church and His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI.

I'll also remind you one of the most revered figures among Catholics and the clergy is the Blessed Virgin Mary, and assure you that while women cannot aspire to being priests that in no means give credibility to the claim we value them any less for any reason nor does the church discriminate as some would try to impose on the Church. The Vatican is not an employer, we don't have "jobs", we are serving our Lord and Savior through our life's calling, and that demands sacrifice. if it was not so it would mean absolutely nothing. I didn't become a priest because I was looking for work, and I'm sure this is a hard concept to grasp, but it is completely true.

While I'm grateful that you are truly concerned that I might be "wasting... (my life) serving some mediaeval[_sic_?] and obsolete set of ideas". I assure you it is my choice and my own life with which I have made my own very well formed decision. I am quite sure most other clergy will tell you the same.

I also think you are being overly vulgar in your response to me for no reason at all and I find that offensive. I respectfully ask that you never choose to champion my cause. First off I simply don't need it, while I am grateful you might want to, as with any faithful, the protection and love of the Lord is all I need.
 
Wow, I +1-ed this, then unplussed it, just to be able to +1 it again.
 
+Jake Yde Yes, the nuns can be presumed to have known what they were getting into. Yes, the Church's stance on contraception is well known.

However, the naive views of a girl taking nun vows or whatever are likely to evolve with intense interaction with the so-called "flock." They see what people need, and for the most part that's not opposition to gay marriage.

No matter what we should expect from the Vatican, no matter what vows were taken, no matter what views nuns held when they entered the order, the fact remains that their values are at odds with the Church hierarchy.

I do support your choice to tow the Vatican line or not, I also support the right of these nuns to do whatever the fuck they want to do. And if they believe the Vatican is out of touch with the needs of the people they want to serve, they need to quit and form their own organization. That's my whole point.
 
It all depend on The Governmental system we are operating on makes our debates and complains not go anywhere, because they are in charge of the system.
 
As far as I'm concerned, the Roman-Catholic Church is corrupt and anyone who even gets the opportunity to escape it, should.
 
More ppl leaving the church is more ppl with the chance to have higher education and see reality.
 
počúvať hlas srdca a to je určite voľba číslo dva! :)
Translate
 
It's not as easy as "just leave". These people are genuinely so misguided and warped that they believe that that former (?) Nazi that's currently wearing the pope-hat is a special messenger from their God. That's the central issue with religion - it has nothing to do with rationality or reason, in fact they all de-emphasize those things in favor of "faith", which essentially boils down to "believe in this stuff. We have no proof except our say-so and some old writings that have been translated and re-written a lot and were carried as oral legends only for a millenium first."

The only difference between a "dangerous cult" and mainstream organized religion is really how many people adhere to it.
 
That womam looks ready to fight! So is she trying to support the same sex mariage?
 
Didn't their band break up when Martin Luther came out with a hit? I must have not followed them since then.
 
The Vatican may run into the same thing Borders Books did if they do not change with times. They already changed so much to bend the rules on smiting and punishment.

Showing you are not tolerant of other humans and preaching about loving everyone will never work out.
 
+Mike Elgan One moment sir, what you said contradicts itself. "Yes, the nuns can be presumed to have known what they were getting into. Yes, the Church's stance on contraception is well known. " "However, the naive views of a girl taking nun vows" I would like to point out that being aware and knowing are the opposite of being naive. According to Webster's "Naive adj 2 a : deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment; especially : credulous"

I would also like to point out what I said before. If i take a vow and then ever find myself at odds with such, I will renounce such. Since the Catholic Church's stance on this is well known, and they are opposed but did not withdraw their affiliation was their being called out by the Vatican really that unwarranted. Isn't it sort of like being a member of a club that doesn't allow smoking inside and then lighting up in the restroom? By your own admission "Their values are at odds with the Church hierarchy." The Church didn't join them, they joined the Church, they knew it was conditional, as do I. According to our faith the Pope is the Apostolic successor of Peter... If they are at odd with this and the authority of the Pope as the successor of Peter then they should label themselves apostates and abdicate from Catholicism as you say.

My point in asking you why you posted this is because I'm wondering, other than possibly stirring resentment for the Catholic church, what you hoped to accomplish here? Again I ask you to please not be vulgar in your communication with me, there is no need, not even to punctuate or emphasize a point. I am fully aware of how passionately you feel regarding this topic, surely you can see I'm not hear to berate or belittle you. I'm here because I believe Catholicism is taking a beating for reasons that are unfounded form laity and non-Catholics whom are not familiar with its ways.
 
...or is it the times we are living in?...the churches stance is ever changing...in the early church priests could marry...but the rules changed...in 386 Pope Siricius tried to ban married priests from having sex with their wives...but the rules changed...in 1074 Pope Gregory VII excommunicated all married priests...keeping in mind that in 13th century England one adult male in twelve was a cleric. Monks and nuns, as well were expected to be celibate
...give a shout out if you think the rules were obeyed...anyone??

...my sense is the nuns are well aware of what they are getting into...

FYI...in the 1980's Pope John Paul II declared there was no sex in heaven...well then!...one might want to get a lil something here on earth ;)
 
+Jake Yde My point is simply to propose a solution. Just leave. Who needs the Vatican? Nobody does.

They order people around because they believe their authority will compel people through fear to suppress what they know is right.

The solution is to simply walk away.
 
I always noticed that Jesus said the harshest things to the religious elite. In my view, if a Christian leader isn't grounding his opinion directly in the Bible, and is instead following what some human said later, he has no business being a leader.
 
I have escaped from the Catholic Church recently though things have been brewing in my mind for a long time. The current set up is so corrupt, they have vested interests and all the preaching is just a facade, random words thrown at the hapless faithfuls so that they can lord over them and hang on to their sinecures. Most organised religions are in the same category though. Today's priests and to a large extent nuns too, are there just because its an easy job with a lifetime of job security - because that's what it really has boiled down to - a job with high returns for doing nothing.
 
No. 2. Just get out of Roman Catholicism, that religion have their rules, if you don't want to follow the rules then start your own. Roman Catholicism doesn't own God anyway.
Sean C
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"Roman Catholicism doesn't own God anyway." well said
 
Yeah! Start up a new group like the Bene Gesserit!
 
Why did these women become nuns in the first place? For religious reasons or to eventually upset the status quo of this centuries old, outdated boys club with their ambitions for promotion? ... Did they not know this on joining or secretly hoped the Vatican would change it's views on women as priests or bishops, let alone on their stance on anything other than heterosexual relationships?
If they disagree with the Vatican's policies & centuries old viewpoints, then leave just like any other disgruntled employee, or they can do another useless "occupy this" on the Vatican in protest. The Vatican's stance on these matters have not changed in centuries & don't look like changing any time shortly.
I'm not religious but I have no sympathy for these nuns. Just like any other employee of an organisation, if the employee fails to act in line with the organisation's vision, they should be reprimanded by the rules set out by the organisation.
 
im i the only one seeing that there is something wrong with the pope?
 
+pananaw tao That has bugged me a lot lately, these people who make a public stink about the rules in an organisation that they have voluntarily joined and refuse to leave.
 
OK +Mike Elgan , sorry if I misrepresented your views, this was not my intent. In your post you write that "the Pope has given American nuns two choices". And one of these choices includes "stop helping the poor so much and start focusing on the control of other people's sexuality". I was surprised by this statement so I wanted to check in the document from the Vatican I found here: http://www.usccb.org/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&pageid=55544
I encourage everyone to read it before debating on this topic.
 
Its no mystery why people hate christianity and God, Jesus deserves so much better from us...Love God love people...to love God is to love people because people are always on the heart of God
 
He would condemn the catholic church and the idol that sits at the top of it. Then he would tell these nuns to do what glorifies Him and the kingdom.
 
Okay, I'm not big on the "Church", but I would hardly say it is an easy job. With "recruitment" way down I would not ever think of it as an easy job (even back in the day...). Although, I'm not very religious these days and oppose many of the Churches views, I still respect those that make this choice as a profession. I would never think of it as an "easy" job.
 
mitran nu shonk goliya chalaun da
 
+Mike Elgan fair enough, and well said. I will however ask if you believe your words here will reach these nuns? There are some people who not only need the Vatican, the Church, and the Pope who I will remind you is considered by devout Catholics to be the Apostolic Successor of Peter. There's oh... Catholic Social Services, Catholic Charities, Catholic Church funded Soup Kitchens and homeless shelters... the list goes on. Without the Vatican these services wouldn't be available. What about Mother Teresa? How about all the good work she did over the years?

You said "They order people around because they believe their authority will compel people through fear to suppress what they know is right. " but that is completely incorrect, it's not some random man's authority, it is God's own authority. It's not to suppress people, it's because it is God's Law, which will always be higher than man's law.

You are correct if the nuns in question do not believe in that the solution is for them to walk away. But what has that to do with Google+?
 
I'd never thought that nuns would ever be involved in war!
 
The Vatican ... will have Nun of it. If they form their own sect I would call them the "Birds of pray"
 
.. As for what Jesus would do? .. last I checked he wasn't the CEO of the Vatican ..
 
I have read all the comments here and so far i agree with Andy Nagai. Nuns have to do to the Glory of our Father and Saviour. Who made the Bishop God, deciding what is best for the nuns. GO NUNS be what u promised in ur vows.
 
+David Church The Catholic Church is not an empire, it is the body of christ acting through its members. Also the Catholic Church has been around for over 2000 years, its not going away anytime soon, the truth of Christ is undenaible and it will outlast everything
 
+Mike Elgan I am no theologian but I am Catholic & have learned a few things about Church doctrine in my 19 years, the Catholic Church does not believe women to be inferior in any aspect, including being priests, the reason women cannot become priests is that the Church is the Bride of Jesus, when a priest becomes ordained he becomes in effect married to the church, and during mass when consecrating the Eucharist the priest is fulfilling the marriage by consummating the ultimate act of love when the physical body & blood of Jesus become present in the Eucharist
 
THe second choice definitely
 
What?! helping the poor is irrelevant? WTF is wrong with the vatican? There's millions of poor people dying worldwide and they say helping the poor is irrelevant? Good GOD!
 
So long as the pope's plates are gilded with gold the poor don't exist. Gays, however, torment every moment of their waking lives.
 
That picture of the nun with a gun is off (RED DEAD REDEMPTION} , just thought you might like to know.
 
Why should we care or give attention to an organisation that is fundamentally evil? You don't see a poor church only an impoverished band of worshippers.
 
There's 3 dynamics here. 1) the so called "christian" values. 2) Women's liberation. 3) personal views and political opinions. Jesus said,"lets whats caesar's be of caesar's. And God's be of God." The Vatican needs to be tending to their Father's works. and not worry about anyone else.
 
The Catholics are finished, unless they can capture the Holy lands and kill all the infidels.
 
organized religion is digging a deeper hole for itself with everything it does. while personal religion remains relevant, organized religion has been a burden to society for decades
 
is the picture of the nun from red dead redemption?
 
Interesting perspective that gives much less than half the story. But truth isn't as interesting. The "rebuke" is aimed at some in the leadership group, not all the nuns in the US. It's more a case of if you want to be part of a group you follow the rules of the group. If not, then perhaps you need to decide if you should be there. 
 
I find most of the worlds problems are caused by religion, you should all play red dead redemption against each other online and sort out your differences in a friendly but satisfying way.
 
"wasting their time on irrelevant objectives like helping the poor. " True colours shine through....
 
+David Webb And I suppose you're saying the church has never been wrong. We should just accept whatever the leaders of this cult say and accept it without question? Is that it? Do as they say? Never question it? Humans make mistakes and the church has made it's fair share of mistakes throughout history. If you don't know this then pick up a history book. Never blindly follow anyone without using your own good judgement. The church has been wrong, and will be wrong again. Don't be a robot. Be human.
 
Why would I care about what would Jesus advise? He's male & nothing more to me than a man. Yes, I'd chose the #2 b/c #1 is no choice. What I can't understand about this big upset from the catholic church of going against homosexuality is b/c not long ago, priests,
popes,bishops,....Males from the church was caught sexually abusing alter boys for many,many years.Today,It still maybe happening behind close doors!With what I've read in the bible, I've concluded that God is
Male & GAY! He created Adam & Lilith as equals only to toss the girl out in favor of the son's whimpering complaints. He then created eve, in which he used adam's rib signifying that god wanted the female to be less than, inferior to his favorite. And yet again, Adam couldn't even control his inferior counterpart resulting in them getting kicked out of the Garden. Since then women had to fight for every little rights & freedoms & still do today! Even today, mothers cry in desperation when the child turns out to be a girl. So, Gay, god if you love your male children more then your inferior female children;when you failed in making Lilith bow down to Adam;you should've skip on making another inferior partner for Adam & made him a male partner named Adick! It's so, obvious god that you're a dick lover & a pussy hater!
from:
A recovering eX-catholic & joining the Agnostic group!
 
Another nail in the coffin of Catholicism
 
I almost mistaking commented on a comment instead of the story. It's interesting how things change in all aspects of life as time goes on. From our everyday habits to religious organizations. I don't believe that people who truely are true to their faith are people that cause harm or infringement upon others personal belief. All of man should be able to have their own beliefs so long as they respect others beliefs and live in peaceful harmony. As far as the quote I read earlier, "Religion causes war" , that's just not true. radical people who are evil cause war. They may say it's in religious beliefs to cause war but they are simply nuts.
 
A church that lives in the past has its back facing the future .
 
+Trish Tanner : I know i mustn't speak in your internal affairs but, do you really think what you said pleased you and you're satisfied. Think once again.
No no, dont misunderstood me, i'm not a christian at all and i'm not here to preach mine. It's just that, your comments on your own GOD (Which you think is Jesus) are so full in anguish of grief.
 
LOL! The Catholic Church (like ALL organized religion) is all about power and control....fuhgettabout Jesus. As a recovered "Cathoholic" I can see clearly now how hateful and pathetic Religion is. Some of my best childhood memories are of my days spent at St. Paul's (primary school in L.A.) and of my teachers there, most of which were nuns. Why oh why do they continue to subject themselves to this revolting abuse from The Church? Mike is right, they should split off or even better, become agnostic!
 
lllllllllllllllllllllloooooooooooooooooooollllllllllllllllllll
 
OK everybody just calm down, chill out , take a deep breath and count to ten, now isn't that better ,are we all friends again?
 
The LCWR represents "80% women religious" not 80% of nuns. The religious also include lay people (of which my mother is one) and religious social workers. They do not take vows so they are not nuns. It would be understandable that they would advocate view which the Vatican would view as liberal.

As to choosing from your options, I must respectfully decline. By assuming that I know what Jesus will advise, I become as arrogant as the harsh rebuke of the Vatican.

We must remember though that religions do evolve. Galileo was pardoned, Pope John Paul II advocated science to purge religion of superstition. If oppositions like this are resolved well, it forms the basis of meaningful reform however slow or painful that process might be. +1 for constructive disagreement!
 
I am christian and I hate the Catholics, they have gotten Christianity very wrong.
 
CS Lewis pointed put once that the Church is run by human beings. Case in point. The women seem to be doing whay Jesus said to do. He did advocate civil.disobedience when needed seems to me they should continue where their good works have led them
 
OK, i really think you should all lay off the red bull for a while because you all seem really stressed out.
 
I would not recommend them to any of the options, why becoz helping the poor, they must continue, for it is written, to touch God's heart help thz who matter the most to him, the needy. Its the pope who shud shut up all he z saing is egotistical an trash
 
No matter how stubborn we become...It wont change the TRUTH which we have engraved in our hearts form years of reading the bible. Life is about choices...follow your choice with regrads to your own alignment with the TRUTH.
 
The choice would Jesus(PBUH) advise is following these teachings of him.

Torah: "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! (Deuteronomy 6:4)
Bible: Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; (Mark 12:29)
Holy Quran: And your God is one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful. (Quran 2:163)
 
Mike Elgan, bet you wish you had never printed that picture of the nun with the gun now, just so you know i like it for what it is , (just a picture).
 
great picture! thats pretty much what the nuns were like, at the all girls school i went to
Thao Le
 
go with ur hearts ladies
 
+Mike Elgan i just went and read the actual document, and i believe that both your article and the news articles have misinterpreted the words of the document.
http://www.usccb.org/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&pageid=55544 "The
documentation reveals that, while there has been a great deal of work on the part of LCWR
promoting issues of social justice in harmony with the Church’s social doctrine, it is silent on
the right to life from conception to natural death, a question that is part of the lively public
debate about abortion and euthanasia in the United States. Further, issues of crucial
importance to the life of Church and society, such as the Church’s Biblical view of family life
and human sexuality, are not part of the LCWR agenda in a way that promotes Church
teaching."

your interpretation of it was "The reason is that the nuns had failed to make the opposition to abortion and gay marriage central to their agenda, and instead had been wasting their time on irrelevant objectives like helping the poor. "

an analogy is this. your mom tells you that while you have been good, you did not help ensure that your brother was good. this does not mean that you failed to ensure your brother was good, and wasted your time being good. it means that merely being good is not enough, but on top of that, you should ensure others are also good.
 
... For the Vatican, The US Church is nothing but a neo-protestant-leaning branch. Americans always trying to imitate their English Creators. (If England created their own church, We, americans will do it too, Bigger, Flashier, with less rules and with easy access to Exit doors in case you want to bail. Screw Hierarchy, Screw self-restrain). Right? Fucked up people in a Fucked up Church.
(And this goes to the Parish priest of my community. Stop the 4-Collection Baskets per Mass, I do not want to contribute every sunday to your "Retirement Fund" or "your Neo-cathecumenal-ways". Instead of taking money for non-pious things, why don't you take more time to prepare your homily?. Honestly, for being a 3-Degree College Educated Prist you are the worst Orator I ever encounter. I heard poor priests with a bit more than high school education, that can Enlighten your soul with a speech... and truly makes you want to be better person for others and for yourself). and about the Nuns: NOBODY HELD A MACHINE GUN TO THEIR HEADS WHEN TAKING VOWS.
 
The Vatican... where fucking a 12 year old is legal....
 
pic looks rad more than anything !!
 
Coming from a church that likes little boys, I am not surprised. Caring for the poor, a waste of time! The Pope would have been the first person that he threw out of the temple. 
 
This and few events to come may send the pope or the next one into exile as Nostradamus foretold in Quatrain 11 : 41
"Seven days the mighty star shall burn on high: Cloud shall make two more sunsshine in the sky. The whole night shall the burly mastiff cry when the great pontiff shall his country fly." (There is an image on the quatrain depicting some women turning their back on a pope which might be the current trouble between women and pope benedict)

Natradamus himself suggested in one of his Quatrains that after five hundred year his prophesies will be better understood. 
 
The Catholic Church in the US is having a very hard time trying to get women to join the religious life because of its teachings re: abortion and gay marriage. At the same time, convents in this country are filled with older nuns who have given their lives to the Church and fewer nuns to take care of them, and many convents have shut down because there aren't enough incoming sisters to take the place of the ones who are retiring and dying off. I believe in another 10-15 years, there may not be any women religious left in the USA. I think that either the Roman Catholic Church needs to seriously change their thinking. Attacking the most devoted members of your church is not good for success down the road.
 
Be that as it may, I think that maybe it's time for groups like the LCWR to break away from the Catholic Church and either join denominations that are more receptive to their view of their mission, or create their own sect, although the former sounds more feasible to me. Soon the pope and the rest of the Vatican will awake from their slumber/cluelessness and wonder why there aren't any more women religious in the US.
 
This post and ensuing comments are why I do not discuss religion or politics. Ever.
 
Ich bin gegen Ehen von Gleichgeschlechtlichen. Sie können ja Freunde sein und bleiben. Ehen sollen der verlässliche liebevolle Schutzraum für Kinder sein, Ehen müssen mehr sein als Partnerschaften.
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Hey like we need to make religion more complicated
HJ BF
 
hahahahaha
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+Mike Elgan thank you for the post, it illustrates the big difference between G+ and Facebook, while both can be a canvas for intimate conversations between family and friends, G+ can include far more people, with all views on any subject, and present their POV in a simple way. The subject is link bate, but that's ok too.
 
Okay, my question for everyone saying the nuns should just shut up and submit to the bishops is this: Why is there no room for people who identify as Catholic to demand change and reform from within the church? Why should these women simply accept the status quo? Especially given the obvious moral failings of the leaders of this institution?
 
I've read ALL the comments on this post and I find at lot of people, including +Mike Elgan , very poorly informed and basing a lot of their opinions on anecdotal sources and sensationalist media reports.

Many people have presented their negative views on "Christianity" and The teachings of Jesus, but the original post is a criticism of the administration withing a large organisation called The Catholic Church. Nobody is challenging the word of God here.

Father +Jake Yde has presented some very elloquent examples of how the Church functions and why people choose (and that is very important to remember) this way of life.

For myself, I am a lapsed Catholic with a Catholic School edication - and may I say, an education of excellent quality. I have my own personal disagreements with hypocracy between what the Catholic Church as an organisation claims to represent and what it actually does. However, I still have the greatest respect for the individuals who work within the Church and the way fo life that they choose.
 
Help the poor, Love will attract people more then control and then maybe they'll change, maybe. And if not Love 'em anyway that is what Jesus would most likely do.
 
Probably rebuke the catholic peeps who said this to the women also, tell 'em how their pride is a hindering Love.
 
People, people, people... kindly read all the articles first before we hack away at the church and at each other.

Aside from the news link from the main article, try:
http://news.yahoo.com/vatican-condemns-us-nun-group-over-liberal-stances-151017436.html
http://life.nationalpost.com/2012/04/19/vatican-blasts-u-s-nuns-for-pursuing-radical-feminist-themes/
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/19/us/vatican-reprimands-us-nuns-group.html?_r=1

Thanks to Mikel Syn for providing the link to the Vatican Report:
http://www.usccb.org/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&pageid=55544

Or just search for LCWR on Google News. Let's keep the discussion level-headed. Please. Thank you. There, I said all the magic words.
 
If religion was based off of good morals, why don't women have an equal say? Oh Religion, how you sicken me.
 
There's something you don't see every day.

The Nun-enator
 
Maybe that 80% population should form their own organization, but in a way that doesn't segregate the female portion, so that they could then also invite the parts of the male population that don't wish to continue under such misguided leadership.
 
Oh. Great neutral commentary. Rolling my eyes at you. 
 
Eh, what else to expect from the corporation of phallocracy? It's not as if it turned overnight into the way it is now.

I mostly feel sorry for the (older) nuns who had this choice foisted on them, as it happened in some places, where one child per family had to serve the clergy.
 
The Catholic church is generally a Christian Right organization... Read about the first church to get the smack down in the book of Revelation, does this not sound like the Catholic church, and the general movement of the American Christian? Don't worry, they will get their lashing! We are to live Christian Right in our own hearts, and be far Left to the world! Go Nuns! I think that what the Nuns are doing in New York with the baby dropoff box is an ingenious leftist act of Gods true love! Passing pro-life bills is not, and no I disagree, Jesus would not encourage us to force a law like this on people!
 
This is ridiculous, ignorant religious goons. This is what religion does to people. Read a book, look into science and open your eyes, religion is nothing more than a control mechanism and this is perfect proof of that. Religion was created by the same people that thought the earth was flat, your really going to reali on those people/ follow those people!! Hahaha
 
getting ready to go into the confessional !!!!
 
Things like this would never happen if government would just stay out of religion, and religion stays out of governments.
 
Hindu myself, tell you something interesting one of the popes was a woman, they only found out when she gave birth, still to be fair to our own faults Gandiji and I hate the cast system.
 
No. Eff both of those options. Reading the comments I see a lot of people saying the nuns should fall in line or leave. I disagree. The church desperately needs change. I say these nuns should get REALLY pissed and stage a coup, taking over the church, and make the first female pope. (has a wild imagination)
 
mutha superior (boom)
 
+David Webb and +Mike Elgan , do you find it funny that you and all who +1'd your post are all men? Times changed and religion is no longer relevant. All religions are damping up the fear to keep power. Get over yourselves
 
Islam? ^^Oh right, like the women in the middle east get better treatment. -_-
 
+Keith Fick, +Jake Yde - Thanks for your comments which hopefully were able to shed some light on Catholic beliefs.

I don't understand how people can say that the Vatican has done anything wrong in this instance.

+Mike Elgan (or anyone else), I may be a bit of a lay person when it comes to theology, so please feel free to correct me if I get this wrong but the Catholic church is the only Christian church that has been around since Jesus' time.

It follows the teachings of Jesus and the Bible. It does not, will not and cannot change these beliefs in order to be popular with the masses.

Catholics can't pick and choose which teachings of the church are correct.

Now, as has been mentioned there are numerous other denominations of Christianity, some 30,000 or maybe more! And sure, the Nuns who don't believe Catholic doctrine can and probably should leave the Catholic church and join another denomination, or start their own. But I don't think I've come across the idea of denominations in the Bible. It all seems to point to one church, the Catholic church.


Here is my take on some of the questions that came up in the comments... Please let me know if I missed anything and I'll try to answer.

What would Jesus do?


Jesus taught us about love. When questioned about the greatest commandment he answered:

"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'".

Why can't women become priests?
Because Jesus' apostles were all men, and the church follows His teachings.

"The Lord Jesus chose men to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ's return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible."

Why does the church want Nuns to help fight abortion and same-sex marriage?

These are big issues that Catholics and I would think most, if not all, Christians feel strongly about. Both of them are popular ideas, and they are a threat to people becoming saints.

Abortion is seen as "pro-choice". It is the mother's body and it is her choice.
The Catholic church is "pro-life". God knows you even before you were conceived by your parents, by having an abortion the mother is ending the life of her child - a human person. Remember, "Love your neighbour as yourself"?

Same-sex marriage is seen as an equal rights issue, and I suppose it is. Catholics believe that God created marriage, and it is created between a man and a woman.

Further to this, homosexual acts are presented as sinful throughout the Bible. The Catholic church wants all people to become saints. Therefore, endorsing same-sex marriage is contradictory to Catholic beliefs.


One more thing I would like to add. For Catholics, becoming a priest or nun is about serving others. It is not about power.
 
I think the same way is impossible to say "I love you too much" it is impossible to say that someone is "spending too much time on poverty and social justice concerns" while there are thousands who are starving and abused each day
 
+Joseph Rignanese "Correct me if I'm wrong". I think the origins of the Catholic Church don't go back quite as far as they would have us think. All branches of all faiths have their stories of why their path is the one true path. Obviously protestantism is a relatively recent splinter off Catholicism, but back in the years immediately after the death of Jesus, his followers defined themselves as simply 'Christians': followers of Christ.

There were many Gospels and interpretations of Christ's words, life and message, and these lead down different paths. Gnostic christianity, Orthodox christianity and other less well known or largely forgotten interpretations.

The Catholic message is largely defined by the interpretation of Christ's message by Paul of Tarsus - St. Paul - who never even know Jesus Christ. And by the biographies of Christ and his teachings as laid out in the four canonical Gospels - there are other writings which have not been adopted by the Church, particlarly important is the Gospel of Saint Thomas.

The word 'Catholic', comes from Greek and basically means 'whole' or all encompasing. The word was chosen in an attempt to unify the fractured forms of Christianty which had begun to appear by the 2nd cenutry.

The Catholic Church only becomes Roman in 380 when the Roman Empire adopts Christianity as the state religion.

Given this boost by the Romans, over the following centuries, the Catholic Church comes to be the largest branch of Christian faith, and so is able to present itself as the 'original'.

There is a comparable split in Islam, between Sunni and Shia followers. Each group sees itself as following the original doctines of The Prophet and each believes they can trace their history directly to him.
 
Personally, I think your all full of crap. Think God I belong to no physical church. I would never be able to be the good person I want to be.
 
It's good to get a balanced take on a complex issue, so for those interested, here is an article that clarifies more details from Zenit:

http://www.zenit.org/article-34626?l=english

It also contains a link to the document “Doctrinal Assessment of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious”, and a statement from Cardinal Levada.
 
Are you sure helping the poor is an irrelevant objective? Nuns on most occassions put their lives on the line in reaching out to them. Can you do that? I believe poverty is the no. 1 problem facing the world today and selfishness play a major part. Remember one study; the world has enough resources to feed all its people, the problem is, chosen few control this resources and refuse to distribute it equitably. We need a permanent not palliative solution in order to eradicate poverty.
 
I love how the Church isn't satisfied to just wage #waronwomen , but it must also conscript women to do so as well.
 
+Daryl Baines You have your history partly right regarding the history of the Catholic Church. You correctly point out that St. Paul is very influential for Catholics. Although he never met Jesus, his writings pre-date the 4 canonical Gospels, as well as . He would have been corrected for wrong teaching by the Apostles and Gospel writers.
We see this in practice where those who taught early heresies.
One sees very early, under St. Peter, an attempt to quiet / correct those who were not teaching the Faith.

The claim to "original" comes from the unbroken line of successors to St. Peter, know as popes. This preservation is seen as Divine Providence. There was no significant split, save for the Orthodox split in 1054. All other "splits" or heresies died off, only reappearing from time to time in a highly broken sequence. Until, as you point out the Protestant revolt which was a varied and fractured splintering.

I don't want to get into historical-biblical scholarship, but most believe the "gospel of Thomas" to be dated some time between 50-250. This only reinforces my point that from the earliest times, judgments have been made by the popes regarding wrong teaching. This is to be distinguished from actions in the name of Jesus (read Acts of the Apostles). Where people perform acts in Jesus' name.

The name "Roman" Catholic distinguishes it from the other Catholic traditions (Rites, including Carmelite, the various Eastern Rite families like the Antiochian and Byzantine, among many others ). They share the same doctrines (teachings) but differ primarily on there liturgical and devotional practices, most clearly seen in the Mass; as a reflection of their cultural heritage. The Roman just happens to be the largest in numbers.

So back to the article, give that Catholics believe in an unbroken line of popes, charged with preserving the doctrines of the Church, the pope is given a sacred duty to call out those who, in the name of the Church, promote false doctrines. Furthermore, notice that the pope did not, nor will he, excommunicate any of the members of LCRW. He can state that strict adherence, promotion, and participation in a teaching contrary to the Catholic one, ipso facto, removes you from the Church. This is an act of the person, not the pope. This is similar to a single person filing taxes as a married couple (being that the person is not married, of course). There are penalties for actions.

So as +Mike Elgan correctly points out, if the LCRW does not want to follow Catholic teaching (papal authority included), they are choosing to no longer be Catholic. But this is a personal decision, not one that can be made on an organizational level. But those individuals want it both ways, to say they are Catholic and enjoy the "benefits" of being in a collective religious order, but also not follow Catholic teaching. By the way, the Vatican would not have said anything unless the LCRW made homosexual marriage, among other things, part of their organizational platform / mission.
 
Well... I rather stick with Jesus' promise: "that he would be with his church (yep he only founded one) until the end of time… and that Church for the past 2000 years has taught inspired by the Holy Spirit and it will not change just because society want to relax and have peace and LoVe with everyone now. Yes that same Church has committed big errors in the past but evil is everywhere and the Catholic Church is made by us mere mortals and that’s why again Jesus told us that the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church until the end of time, so keep trying to divide it… no matter what we all do it will be still here when the end comes.
 
Is that Juana de Arco O.o!!
 
things that make you go..hmmmmm....and get disgusted!!
 
The Catholic Church is a farce! The nuns take a poverty vow and vow to help others having no life of their own. They are their to help people in pain and hunger. with donations provided by the parishioners. The nuns do their part. and I have a lot of respect for them. The Priests and bishops are the problem they abuse little boys and get away with it, it is swept under the carpet, so to speak, like the Catholics have always done, ruining people life's and hearts down to their very souls. Catholics know not what truth is, it is their own truth, not GODS. My uncle was a catholic missionary Priest quite well known he tried to expose the the church and all thier dirty little secrets and the vatican put it to a stop not wanting the exposure of their jaded, dishonest, sexual abusive , greedy, disgusting practices. The priests and bishops are screwing little boys in the ass and have for years what is wrong with that picture. It is my opinion the nuns of the catholic faith should take control and the Pope should be ousted out on his ass of course landing on a cactus right up his ass along with all of his cronies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
As far as I'm concerned, Jesus Christ would advise on both choices given by the Pope!!!! Environment changes people. Jesus Christ would give a parable relating to the situation so that the Pope and the Nuns in the end they chooses the right thing.
 
Matthew 27:50-51: And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His Spirit. Then behold, the veil of the Temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split...We need no priest, preacher, or teacher. Through Christ's death and resurrection we are no longer separated from our God. We can boldly approach His thrown ourselves. His Spirit lives within us, to teach us, guide us, love us, hear our confessions, and Christ covers our sins with His blood, Himself. God wanted a personal relationship with His people from the foundation of time...None of us could be sinless, so it Pleased God to crucify His perfect Son, to bring us into His Presence again, to be with us, as He was with Adam, before the fall. God desires this relationship with each of us. You have to choose whom you will serve, but the only way to God is through the Blood of Christ. And a personal relationship with the Alpha and Omega beats a priest, preacher, rabbi, sunday school teacher, saint, or any other intermediary hands down every time. Know thy God, yourself- He knows you!
 
You can say muckraker much.. 
 
Oh and btw. I think I would rank murder as a higher priority than helping the poor..
 
I got something to say about gay marriage.Please let s have respect for the human society.Gay marriage is abnormal.It ll destroy the structures of any society.And help gays to recover their health.
 
+jalil fidi I disagree. Homosexuality is like left-handedness. It's just something that exists among a minority percentage of every human population. Gay marriage harms no one. Discrimination harms everyone.
 
We might need to differentiate between homosexual tendencies or urges and the actual acts. If I have a sexual urge relating to someone who's not my wife that's not morally wrong, it's just something that happens. What I do with that urge is what's moral or immoral. If I thought about that person and lusted after them or followed through and had sex with that person that'd be wrong.
Similarly, it's normal for people to occasionally experience urges and some people are more prone to develop homosexual urges. They can become more common (heterosexual or homosexual) if the person focuses on it and lusts after people, but the urge in itself is neither moral nor immoral.
Physically having sex with someone of the same gender is something a person chooses to do, and I believe it's immoral.

That being said, hating someone (really even failing to love that person) for any reason, including or especially over what you or I deem to be poor choices is equally wrong, and harms the world in the same way.
 
They should defintely form their own religious society
 
They should be equally concerned about helping the poor as they should about defending and teaching the truths regarding God's revelation in Jesus Christ; this includes God's vision of marriage and human sexuality articulated through the Church.  To pit one against the other is a false dichotomy.  
 
If the Nuns left this institution of Satan they can start getting the full council of God. As a self excommunicated Catholic I know the difference between following a man and following God. Where does it say to pray to Mary or where does it say that she ascended into heaven? Catholics are tricked into following man made doctrine.
 
All religions should be coming together instead of seperating. Every faith has advantages nd disadvantages. One picks up where the otherleaves off. Stop trying to blame the other for not being able to do it all or call attention away from the embarrassment of the churches shortcomings. One church alone is not capable of miracles unless you reach out to the rest of the clergymen for help and work in HARMONY AS A UNITED GROUP OF FAITH IN SOMETHING BIGGER THAN ONE PERSON, CHURCH OR OTHER RELIGIOUS GROUPS ARE NEEDED TO SAVE THE WORLD FROM ITSELF 
 
You must be a Catholic, I use to be. Catholics don't get this: you can't just read the Bible and get the full council of God thats why the Bible must be studied. If you studied the Word you'd realize how wrong your last statement is for remember Jesus said He did not come to change the world if so, then how can any religious groups do so? Read Romans 10:3 for God's definition of what religion is to Him, for you may have a decent heart but your naiveté lets to accept anything that sounds good as coming from God not understanding that Satan can also transform into an angel of  light. If you believe that all religions are good read Galatians 1:8,9 and know that both Islam and Mormon claim that an angel from God bought them their holy word. Read that verse and realize how little of the Bible you understand being a Catholic.
 
suddenly the propaganda gets tossed back and forth: secularist humanism versus catholicism. 

It's true that the Bible cannot be just read to get the essence behind what the many flavors of Christianity are presenting,

However, stating that a person's interpretation of the Bible is untainted by a secret agenda just because his imaginary friend endorses it still does not make his interpretation "the true message of God".

Rather, it makes that person's interpretation an OPINION.

My counter opinion has been stated at the beginning.

Each side has their opinion on the matter. Me calling it "propaganda" is merely mine.
 
So why can't the men concentrate on feeding the hungry and clothing the homeless?

Controlling people's sexuality is not in the Bible.  Whatever justification which is taken from the Bible is used out of context.

As well the anti-homosexual ban only applied to clergy as it was in response to complaint by the congregations in Byzantium regarding the corrupt morals of certain wolves in sheep's clothing who had become clergy.
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