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Mike DeSimone
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For my own future reference. Discussions to the parent post, please.
 
Arguing with Conservatives (or Trumpists, or Fascists, or Libertarians, or Climate Denialists, or ...)

A fundamental presumption of truth-seeking, that is, dialectical, discussion is that the parties are engaged in good faith. Quite often this is simply not the case. Realisation of that has come only slowly to me, I've posted in the past month or so on the distinction between dialectical and rhetorical communication. The former seeks to gain a common understanding, the latter to promulgate some specified ideology or premise. These are fundamentally distinct communications modes, and it is not possible to engage didactically with someone who is bent on rhetorical persuasion.

The Rovian principles described are fundamentally rhetorical.

There are other modes and purposes of communciation as well. An observation of the Puppet Fascist Donald John Trump is that he is emulating the pattern of Vladimir Putin (and a long legacy of similar tinpot dictators and little Big Men) of expressing a capricious disregard of truth, and an insistence on conformance from his followers, as a mode of establishing and extending power itself.

There are other dynamics to this -- "Non-Linear War" is a term that's been circulating, you'll find it featured prominently in BBC documentarian Adam Curtis's works, particularly Bitter Lake and Hypernormalisation. It's been covered as well at Politico (TK?) and a week or so back by On The Media in an excellent treatment of this fake-news, post-truth era.

A key realisation is that "communication" is not utilised by such actors as a means of promoting information but of supressing it.

By driving the agenda.

By dominating the conversation.

By preventing cohesion of forming withing opposition groups.

By sowing confusion over fundamental facts, the concept of facts themselves, and of what models of reality are or are not valid -- "gaslighting".


You'll hear a number of justifications and validations given for this. "Freedom of speech". "The marketplace of ideas". "It's just words." You yourself will be accused of fascism, of bullying, of intolerance -- all of these projections of the group's own tactics.

"Freedom of Speech" doesn't apply to private individuals. XKCD has the best commentary on this canard.

"The Marketplace of Ideas" is itself an element of conservative, Libertarian, and Fascist ideology. It claims provenance from John Stuart Mill's "On Liberty" where in fact not only does Mill never utilise the term, but he explicitly rejects numerous of the principles it endorses. TK has an excellent paper exploring and refuting this development.

The fact is that truth is truth, and can only be obtained in an environment in which arrival at the truth alone is the sole goal.

My recommendation, when you note such tactics, is to note the behaviour, clearly label the source as illegitimate, and if possible, block them. Within your own discussions, removing sources of noise is a remarkably effective way of improving signal ("Block Fuckwits"). Quiet discussions, within groups not open to general participation, probably limited in size to around 50 - 150 participants, likely make for the most effective discussion sessions. This is a concept I've explored, and which has been discussed recently in the press ("private Facebook groups" TK).

Their goal is to suppress Democratic and Left-Liberal viewpoints. Yours is to disseminate these.

And of course, the tactics can be turned on the Right (and alt-right fascist neo-Nazi Trumpist movements) themselves.


I'm shamelessly swiping the following from +Ole Olson. I've also previously discussed this particular guidebook (whose provenance is uncertain, though it's not been repudiated that I'm aware, and the methods are highly effective and reflect actual practice). h/t as well to +Simons Mith
https://plus.google.com/+OleOlson/posts/HatjPqhGi6V


Ever notice how whenever a conservative is legitimately criticized that trolls show up and repeat the same things?

This is deliberate. It is a purposeful tactic to derail a good conversation where evidence is used to make a point. You can visit nearly any major political discussion thread to see right wing sheep doing this en masse. When confronted with facts, they usually resort to name calling, although the slippery ones will shift to a different tactic or logical fallacy.


TACTICS FOR EFFECTIVE CONSERVATIVE BLOGGING
By Karl Rove

Engage
Demand an elaborate, time-consuming comparison / analysis between your position and theirs.

Entangle
Insist that the Liberal put their posts in their own words. That will consume the most time and effort for the Liberal poster. They will be unable to spread numerous points on numerous blogs if you have them occupied. Allowing a Liberal to post a web link is too quick and efficient for them. Tie them up. We are going for delay of game here.

Demoralize
Dismiss their narrative as rubbish immediately. Do not even read it. Once the Liberal goes through the trouble to research, gather, collate, compose and write their narrative your job is to discredit it. Make it obvious you tossed their labor-intensive narrative aside like garbage. This will have the effect of demoralizing the Liberal poster. It will make them unwilling to expend the effort again, and for us, that is a net win.

Attack
Attack the source. Any Liberal website or information source must be marginalized, trivialized and discounted. Let the blogosphere know that Truthout.org, thinkprogress.org,the nation and moveon.org are Liberal rubbish propaganda. Discredit Liberal sources of information whenever possible.

Confuse
Challenge the Liberal position with questions, always questions. The questions need not be relevant. The goal is to knock the Liberal poster off their game, and seize control of the narrative. Once you have control you can direct the narrative to where you want it to go, which is always away from letting the Liberal make their point. Conversely, do not respond to their leading questions. Don't rise to their bait.

Contain
Your job is to prevent the presentation and spread of Liberal viewpoints. Do anything you must do to prevent a Liberal poster from presenting a well-reasoned argument or starting a civil discussion. Don't allow a Liberal to present their dogma unchallenged EVER.

Intimidate
Taunt the Liberals. If you find yourself in a debate with a Liberal where you are losing a fact-based argument then call them a name to derail their diatribe. Remember your goal is to prevent a meaningful exchange of views and ideas which may portray Liberalism in a positive light. Your goal as a conservative blogger is to stop the spread and advance of the Liberal agenda. Play upon any identifiable idiosyncrasies, character flaws, physical traits, names, to their disadvantage . Monitor other posts for vulnerabilities you can exploit. Stay on the offensive with Liberal wimps. Don't let up.

Insult their Movement
Assign as many character and moral flaws to Liberals as you can. You must portray Liberals as weak, vacillating, indecisive, amoral, baby killers, unpatriotic, effete snobs, elitists, Leftists, Commies, sense of entitlement, promiscuous, union lovers, tax raisers, Welfare Queens, Socialists, lazy, sex-obsessed, druggies, Jesus haters, moochers, troop hater,.etc. Always use these negative epithets when referring to, or describing Liberals / democrats.

Deceive
Identify yourself as a moderate, centrist or independent. It will also cause Liberals to lower their guard a bit, which gives you an effective opening. This may also have the effect of aligning conservative viewpoints with the real moderates we are attempting to reach. It may serve to influence some moderates over to the Republican side.

Patriotism
Always claim the high ground of pro-military, low taxes, strong defense, morality and religion. We own those virtues. Learn how to exploit them when debating.

Demean
Always refer to the other side as Liberals, Lefty Liberals, Libbies. Never assign them the status of a bona-fide political party. Hang Liberalism around their neck like a burning tire. Make Liberalism appear as a moral turpitude or a character flaw. They are NEVER, NEVER to be referred to as the Democratic Party. At best it is the democrat party. Never assign them respect.

Opportunity
Be alert for ways to insert our catch phrases into your narrative. You will receive your daily list of talking points and topics that we want you to cover. Consistent, persistent repetition and inculcation will drive our talking points home and so will neuro-linguistic programming. Stick with it and our talking points will become truth. If they debunk your talking point, ignore it, and move on as if you didn't hear it.


https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/2d0r1d/the_reactionary_political_debate_playbook_karl/
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+Tonnerre Lombard On Fifth Avenue?
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The Party of Reagan really, really likes the Russian model.
Donald Trump plans on displaying the United States military's strength when he becomes president by having troops march in parades. “Being a great president has to do with a lot of things, but one of them is being a great cheerleader for the country,” Trump told the Washington Post in an interview published Wednesday morning. “And we’re going to show the people as we build up our military, we’re going to display our military."
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+Robert Nugent The alt right answer is: "Of course he won't! How dare you say such things!"

Because the truth is, if anyone teaches them to goose-step, it'll be NCOs, not Donald himself.

#TyrannyThroughHairSplitting
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Hey, +Tejas Richard , if you want to get into the movies, look these guys up.

Saw them mentioned in the credits for Hidden Figures.
Visual Effects and Post Production
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I've got the right shirt for seeing Hidden Figures today!
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I was wondering why there was laughter and cheering. It would be highly inappropriate for CIA personnel. Especially after Trump blew off the wall behind him and what it represents.
Invited guests of President Donald Trump, Vice President Mike Pence and CIA director nominee Rep. Mike Pompeo (R-KS) cheered and laughed at the President’s remarks at CIA headquarters on Saturday, according to a new report.
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that's quite meta...
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Obama 2009 (left half): 1.8 million
Obama 2013: 1.0 million
Trump 2017 (right half): 0.8 million

Right-wing claims of "fake!" in 3... 2... 1...
President Donald Trump boasted his inauguration would have an "unbelievable, perhaps record-setting turnout." But aerial shots of the National Mall from President Barack Obama’s 2009 inauguration...
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I'm gonna miss NATO. That gave us the game of the same name which had the paragraph in the back about simulating strategic nuclear weapons by dousing the map in lighter fluid and applying a match. My friend and I played that once, sans nukes, back in third grade.

TL;DR for the article: Trump reiterated his belief that NATO is old and busted because all of five countries pay their way, so he wants to wind it down. This was in an interview with the German and English press today. He also wants to break up the EU, with British help, this year, because he thinks Merkel is insufficiently hostile to refugees. He and Farage are BFFs.

Gonna be an odd year. Need to ask at work how many of our projects would die with NATO.
Most people in this country, certainly most members of the political class and especially its expression in Washington, don't realize what Donald Trump is trying to do in Europe and Russia. Back in December I explained that Trump has a plan to break up the European Union. Trump and his key advisor Steve Bannon (former Breitbart chief) believe they can promise an advantageous trade agreement with the United Kingdom, thus strengthening the UK's pos...
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How to spot a polymorphed dragon...

Douglas Firxy ( ゚ヮ゚) @FoxyLovelace. @thedungeoncast That dragon is too smart. It knows that no matter what... people will always write it off as "just cat stuff." marymary. Jan 5. marymary @holymeow_. @thedungeoncast @allenstenhaus It's pretty obvious that's a polymorphed griffin. ChimpionsRPG.
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See what happens when you stop teaching Greco-Roman mythology in school?
Express, the free daily edition of The Washington Post, apologized Thursday after it used a graphic of the international sign for men on its front page story about the Women's March on Washington.
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Prep♀ster♀us! 
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