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Dear Mark Shuttleworth, so you "have absolutely no doubt that Kwin will work just fine on top of Mir". This is great and I totally appreciate that you think Mir is a great system. But I'm wondering......
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Haha, ich bin mal gespannt wann die dich anrufen das sie dir helfen wollen. Vorher rufen die wohl auf jeden Fall beim GNOME Projekt an, da tragen die ja seit Unity auch Maßgeblich zur Entwicklung bei… oh wait.
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Didn't Google do just the same with their SurfaceFlinger? From a political perspective: What is the difference between Mir and SurfaceFlinger?
 
So why is everybody so mad at Canonical? Is it because of the desktop? Canonical has given up the desktop (somewhat just like Microsoft) ;-)
Ubuntu will be for phones and tablets, just like Android. But i doubt that Canonical will be very successful in that area (despite the current hype)
 
+Andreas Blochberger I'm mad with them because they argued the need for Mir with facts about Wayland which are not true. It's totally fine with me what Canonical develops - I don't care, but they should be honest about the reasons.
 
I totally agree with you about that, but don't you think this is all just some kind of marketing strategy? They say, the current Linux graphics system is a mess (we all know, this is true to some extent). And they praise the work of Canonical as the solution. It is a dangerous strategy, and i do also think, that it will fail
 
+Andreas Blochberger I don't think it's acceptable to spread lies as marketing. That's what we had been angry with Microsoft, we even have a word for it "FUD". No we shouldn't tollerate that in the free software world
 
I agree 100% with everything Martin has written there .. but this is an interesting question: 

"What is the difference between Mir and SurfaceFlinger?"

SurfaceFlinger started before Wayland was usable in a product; perhaps even before Wayland itself was even started.

Google never said they were going to back Wayland.

Google has never spread misinformation about Wayland.

Android has always been developed behind closed doors creating their own solutions. They are slowly integrating some of their modifications upstream into the Linus tree, but generally it is business as usual. (see: dalvik) They have never claimed otherwise.

Finally, SurfaceFlinger actually works for its intended use cases and is developed by a team that has a track record in creating such things.

Btw, I think it would be great to see Android move to Wayland at some point to see a more homogenous Free software graphics stack, but I'm not holding my breath at all.

A nother side note: Google uses a different system for its ChromeOS which is meant to run web apps on large screens.
 
Could it be that you are spreading fud at the moment about canonical corrupting wayland? The first wiki entry about mir could be misinterpreted(only if your really want to), but was fixed one day later, and on any occasion they held wayland in high regards. So why are you so sensitive?
 
+Gerhard Aigner Before I answer your question, I'm going to address this point first: "The first wiki entry about mir could be misinterpreted"

No, Gerhard, it couldn't be misinterpreted. It clearly said that Wayland's input stack design was the same or similar to X11 and so could have security flaws. Black and white, no interpretation needed. That statement is absolutely false in every word, and even the most basic of examinations of the Wayland code base would tell anyone that. Pretending that Canonical's blunder is other people's interpretation is pretty insulting.

So, Canonical did state that Wayland was not suitable for a number of reasons, including the following claims: the input system is like X11 and possibly flawed, the inability to have a separate shell that can have multiple backends, lack of a high performance "inner core" that focused on the hardware enablement separate from the protocol.

None of those things are true.

Furthermore, they still imply on the web page that Wayland's input system can not support "future developments like 3D input devices". They also say that they are developing something "protocol- and platform-agnostic approach" yet they ship a protocol as a core part of Mir (have you even looked at their code?). They then assert that this means that they "can make sure that we reach our goal of a consistent and beautiful user experience across platforms and device form factors", which is utter bunk as the choice of Wayland or Mir does not help nor hinder that goal .. it's orthogonal.

Either Mir will speak to different graphics stacks, or Unity will, or they won't .. and in all three of those possibilities the idea that one protocol-agnostic stack (which they don't have, btw) is the key is not the case.

In other words, what they have been saying is untruthful, and the target of that misinformation is a Free software project.

In the last days they've also claimed that Wayland will not appear on many hardware devices (which is a lie as it already has been widely available on several devices) and that KWin and Plasma Active will run on Mir, something the developers have precisely zero plan to support.

Now, why does this matter at all, right? Because with Wayland we have the opportunity to have a conherent and consistent modern display system for Free software projects targeting all kinds of devices. This is important for getting hardware vendors to take our efforts seriously and to attract more 3rd party developers. For no useful reason whatsoever, Canonical has thrown all of that into jeopardy by trying to inject Mir into the scene, a project nobody outside of Canonical wants.

So here are my questions to you Gerhard:

Do you support people lieing about other Free software projects?

Do you support people creating divisions within Free software with no technical or community benefit?

Do you support people making the entire Free software community's job harder (inc. Canonica's) in reaching out to hardware vendors and 3rd party developers?

These are not small matters we're playing around with here.
 
+Aaron Seigo
First off I'm not involved in or contributing to ubuntu, kde, gnome, wayland or whatsoever. I'm merely a very pleased ubuntu user and digest a lot of open source news/discussions since I started to use linux. But in this discussion I can't help to notice an imbalance of accusation and facts. In this sense I have a hard time answering your rather polemic questions:
(1) I've a hard time to share your view on "lying" as I totally miss the intentionality. It would be easy to say: "you are lying too" (=MS wrote: "Mir will be on a lot more devices than Wayland" you turned it to "wayland...will not appear on many hardware devices").
(2) No I dont. But aren't you self-centered if you state that you can tell the future? In this case the technical or communical benefit of mir? Example: I really like unity, but in the beginning I was a huge opponent because gnome shell was already appearing and I thought that there is no benefit in splitting the development power. Ubuntu proved me wrong.
(3) I guess I have to say yes, if reaching out means to have a better integrated plattform while still using open source.

 
 
I'm a big fan of ubuntu and indeed they have been a great force to achieve a free open source OS for the masses. But I strongly disagree their last decisions and this kind of attitude. Here in Portugal we have a saying 'Never bite the hand that feeds you...', this is exactly what they are doing. And this is very sad for all of us.
 
+Gerhard Aigner Speaking as a simple user as well, I think what really makes people uncomfortable now is the bait and switch that happened: when Ubuntu started, it was all about a community project that had the advantage of being backed up by a company; and several years down the line, it's a commercial product made by a company that wants an ecosystem of enthousiast app developpers.
Canonical can do whatever they want, it's just that they shifted what the Ubuntu brand means, while pretending to their own community that nothing happened. 
 
+Martin Gräßlin I agree with you. We all know how FUD works. Look at the the study MS made in Munic. It does not contain any valid information, but because it is spread in the media, the uninformed think there must be something.
 
+Aaron Seigo Wouldn't it be a good idea to merge SurfaceFlinger and Wayland? But before i continue in this discussion, i have to admit, that i don't have the technical backround to make good suggestions.

All that i know is, that i don't like this Mir approach, because it is not needed by anyone. And it even won't help Canonical. They would be better off using SurfaceFlinger as it is (i guess). What makes me mad, is the fact, that because of Mir, Ubuntu 13.04 will not ship with X.org 1.14
 
+Andreas Blochberger Getting SurfaceFlinger and Wayland together would be awesome beyond words. Note that Google has yet another display system for ChromeOS (as seen on, e.g., the Pixel). So I'm pessimistic this will happen .. but boy would it be awesome. Everyone, including Google, would benefit, in the same way that Google benefited from being able to adopt (and improve) WebKit.
 
If i interpret the signs correctly, Google is already trying to merge ChromeOS and Android. I wonder what display manager is used in ChromeOS. A search was not helpful.

Anyways, if i would be in charge at Google, i would merge those two projects ASAP
 
PS: Maybe it makes sense for Google to keep the two OS separate, from a user perspective, but on a technical level, it's ridiculous to have two operating systems.
 
The display system is Aura and the shell is Ash.

Today, I am Google's Google. ;P
 
In the design doc, it says "X + Graphics libraries", so i guess it's based on X
 
Whoa, it also says it uses COMPOSITE, EWHM and ICCCM; which would make it similar to a pretty normal WM/CM, though probably one that doesn't have to worry about what 20 year old versions of emacs running remotely might do..
 
Oops, reading the Chromium design doc, i've discovered, that they are using upstart. isn't that another Canonical baby? My guess is, that ChromeOS will be much more successfull than Ubuntu. What if ChromeOS will take the Mir road?
 
I really think we should share all kind of bridges between projects, comes to my mind NetWorkManager, GStreamer or even LightDM though this Mir thing is just a nonsense, an attempt to take the control over one of the most important system's component.
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