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Hey, with gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is starting to look almost usable.

Now I just hope those things become part of the standard gnome shell setup and made available in the regular "system config" thing rather than hidden off. Sure, make them default to off if you want that "clean default", but make them easy to find and part of the standard install.

Or would that be too close to "Ok, we admit we were wong" and thus not politically acceptable?
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I have tried Gnome3 for one day. I couldn't get anything done.
 
Hmm. I've been using Docky. Maybe I'll give the dock extension a shot.
 
The pride level with many developers is on par with your local politician.
 
Oh, and why is that "disable accessibility icon" a separate extension? That accessibility icon should have been an extension to begin with. Oh, by all means default it to enabled, but it's really odd how you have to now install that "disable accessibility" extension and then turn that on if you don't need that thing.

Turning something on in order to turn a feature off? Sure, that's intuitive and good UI.
 
Too much politics in Software design.... I like your idea, but who knows if the designers can follow a logical thought....
 
XFCE does not integrate well with some other things i found, i just want Gnome to be usable :D
 
I haven't been using Gnome for ages, only Xfce/Enlightenment in the last 6-8 years. Maybe I'll give Gnome another chance soon.
 
+Jon F Hancock: I have no idea if the "dock extension" is any better than "docky". For all I know, docky is better. But I'm trying F16 on yet another new piece of hardware, and the dock extension is what I at least found in the standard Fedora repositories.
 
I’m in the first million comments wooo!
<3 Gnome.
 
+Linus Torvalds
1. The kernel
2. git
3. Desktop Environment?
I feel you already are thinking about the third one ( please do! )
 
i hate that nautilus 3 requires gstreamer for the preview tool, i really dont wanna compile gstreamer...
 
i dont know why are everybody so judging about gnome 3... i think its the most beautiful desktop environment. much better then OSX and Win 7. sure, it does require some tweaking, but linux users like tweaking stuff...
 
Gnome developers admitting that they're wrong? You sure do make funny jokes!

+Petar Bešlić The problem is that they tried to STOP users from tweaking. So annoying.

I've been using gnome-shell everyday on my gentoo system since 3.2 came out. The limited amount of options sometimes really piss me off.
 
you know i never liked linux till i tried ubuntu and i have loved it ever since
 
+David Mannion: I tried KDE4 for a while too. I do really like the configurability, and the whole "right-click and set preferences" worked much more intuitively than it does in gnome (two or three). But I just can't get over those crazy plasma widgets - they take up tons of space (ie a small 16x16 icon turns into this monster thing due to all the "turn it into this action thing when you mouse over it").
 
Have you guys tried LXDE? Seriously, it gets the job done, and it uses so little resources.
 
Linus, you have to reconsider your stance towards KDE! It is now the most advanced and customizable GUI and it is now much less buggy than it used to be... It has abilities that make the Linux desktop to shine. Like the ability to have different widgets and wallpapers in each workspace or the ability to have different activities each with its own set of workspaces. Please give it again a try and you won't miss!
 
I think these new desktop environments, unity and gnome 3, have a lot of maturing to do. The general "minimal-ness" of them seems to be the biggest indicator.

I'm hoping they'll focus on making the backend fast/stable/secure/etc, then add features as they're ready. It seems like this is what they're doing to me, but we'll see.

As +Oliver Darlington mentioned, Mint seems to be making some good changes as well.
 
they could also make the gnome-tweak more build into gnome....
 
I'm still keen to see how Mint does it with their MGSE stuff.
 
+Dario Soto: Well, in all honesty, that gnome-tweak-tool is probably the ugliest program I have seen in the last decade. I get the feeling that it's not just the ugly step-child, but that it is intentionally so. Merging the functionality into the regular settings program would be a good step.
 
OpenBox standalone, optionally with Tint2. Boom, mission accomplished on less than half the ram. (If I were to run a full DE it'd probably be LXDE or KDE, Gnome 3.0 was passable for me but not what I'd enjoy on a desktop)
 
gnome-tweak-tool is installed by default in openSUSE 12.1... I agree it needs to be integrated though.
 
Tweak tool gets the job done well enough, but what the hell did they do with dconf-editor though?
That program resizes itself all over the place, it's really a piece of crap compared to gconf-editor...
Kirk M
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I'll second Linux Mint 12. I've been following gnome-shell development ever since it's inception and although I agree that in it's current pure Gnome 3/gnome_shell form it's still (to me) mostly useless I have to admit that what the Linux Mint developers have done with it makes it very usable indeed. Their MGSE (Mint Gnome Shell Extensions) bring back the traditional Gnome 2 desktop feel to Gnome 3/gnome-shell.

MATE ( the Gnome 2.32 fork which is the other DE in Mint 12)) is starting to look good as well. It's still beta but it's shaping up to be a solid DE. It's Gnome 2 all around.
 
Insert random irrelevant statement about Ubuntu here!

I agree with some of t'other chaps, I stuck Mint 12 on my lilliputer, and the shell runs far better and is more usable than any implementation I've yet seen.
 
i am prompted to quote clint eastwood:) "opinions are like assholes; everybody's got one"
 
As much as people love to rag on Canonical, Unity is shaping up to be a much better DE than Gnome3, for simple reasons like having useful window tiling/positioning commands.

Plus, the new default Gnome3 skin looks like the Stay-Puft Marshmallow man wiped his bum all over Win7's Aero.
 
Ubuntu 11.10 and customized Gnome 3...lovely
 
As long as ibus is unusable, I'm not going to jump to Gnome 3.
 
Sir,totally agreeable,for us ,learners/students of GNU/Linux systems.GNOME-3.2 should incorporate the dock extension where we could keep our required application buttons as well as we could keep the regular application tools as icons on the desktop area,similar to the old GNOME-2.x ways.Hopefully GNOME-shell developers should keep in mind about the flexibility of usage for us, the end users.
Using Fedora-16,Ubuntu-11.10 and openSUSE-12.1 in 64-bit ver.
Eager to have the Mint 12(64-bit) ver.
Kirk M
 
-+Linus Torvalds The Gnome Tweak tool was originally supposed to be a temporary app until the equivalent customizing features were built into Gnome 3. These features never appeared and I've heard no word or read anything from the Gnome devs that indicate they ever will be. I personally find that hard to believe but...?
 
I really REALLY wanted to like Gnome3 but the fact that i can't configure it like Gnome2 (and i mean, change the basic config and not just the wallpaper and the "skin") made me not like it

I might try it again, now that you mention the dock extension and the "gnome-tweak-tool"
 
Good news! The GNOME Shell Extensions repository has been launched, which allows random Joe User to find and install GNOME Shell Extensions! I worked very hard on it, so I hope it pleases you...
 
Is it better than 2.30 yet?
 
Sorry +Linus Torvalds I simply could not deal with Gnome3. I've spent about a month trying different Distros and came back full circle to Kubuntu, driven away initially by Unity.

Kubuntu is a good compromise. KDE and the deb package management system.
 
Admitting you were wong is always the best policy. :)
 
F15 was a rough start for GNOME3. Tons of lag, buggy, lack of no-brainer features really pissed off a ton of long time GNOME users. Moving to F16 has shown a ton of promise with GNOME 3.2.1. The fact that they added in reverse alt tab (alt + ` ) and fixed almost all of my lag issues on my workstation has had me recant most of my gripes. Anyone have a list or recommendation of good gnome-shell extensions aside from the ones that show up on a quick Google search?
Peter M
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forget ubuntu, use arch linux
Peter M
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or debian, the original..
 
I am not an admirer of 3 gnome, but I hope it becomes a little more usable ...... still regret gnome 2.(i use Fedora)
 
Am drunk and i do not care...i just love Linus and Linux!
 
+Linus Torvalds try mint 12 lisa ... the gnome 3 shell on that has alot of customization built in everything from tweak tool etc . I am a big fan it is usable
 
I believe gnome 3 is the first time open source UI has surpassed non open source UI, unfortunately there is a need for lots pf tweaks!

Even gnome-tweak-tool is not sufficient!
 
I can't install gentoo by myself, I'm not that "ninja".
 
I loaded Mint 12 and tried the Mate interface -- It was so resource intensive that it was virtually unusable. I went to LXDE and with some work it seems to be quite usable. I miss having two panels at the bottom of the screen!
 
Does GNOME yet allow you to start sessions on multiple computers with a shared home directory? That was the main reason we standardized on KDE at $JOB.
 
I hope that Gnome says "Ok, we admint we were wrong"
 
When I first saw Gnome 3, I honestly thought it was a joke. Quickly figured out it wasn't April 1st though... I don't see how I could ever use something like that. It lacks everything, and what it has is just out of proportions. Mac-style bad taste or something like that. I miss Linux since the day I upgraded my Ubuntu laptop... Stopped using it. Installed KDE, but reported 2 major bugs the first day of use. So I stopped using that too. Thinking of starting a desktop manager project some day to make sure we don't all end up with cellphone or or otherwise toy interfaces on our computers. Shameful.
 
"starting to look almost usable", compared to what?
 
+Tiago Oliveira You don't have to. The gentoo handbook is very good at walking you through (so, make sure you print it out or have another computer.) It's actually pretty easy.
 
Still on Debian Testing and Gnome 3.0. It looks like its coming. I cannot wait to be almost usable. apt-get install almost usable please ;-)
 
+Mykal Valentine i wouldnt call it easy, but its doable. handbook is great,and u can open it in links too, dont need 2 comps. or ur phone thesedays ;)
 
Has anyone found a way of getting persistent Thunderbird and Pidgin notifications on the top Gnome-shell panel? It's the one thing that holds it back from being really usable on a daily basis. I can get them is the occasionally visible bottom panel.
 
I still can't get alt-tab to behave sanely, even with the alternate tab extension.
 
+Linus Torvalds Oh, interesting timing. I just read that https://extensions.gnome.org/ went live a few minutes ago. Just needs a browser plugin (Firefox; Chrome and Epiphany are also supported but broken).

Should be the easiest way for end-users to get extensions, no more gnome-tweak-tool.
 
Kde4 is much better now, plasma can still be annoying though
Gnome2 I found as restrictive as OS X, I was waiting for 3 to get a desktop version, from this post I infer we have one now.
Kde3 lovers now have trinity
 
one thing is very annoying is that they throw "window-list" away. I can't believe we need move pointer to top-left corner and pick one from open list, just to switch to window next to it. Just take it back the window list, and i'll switch back to gnome
 
+Alexander Hofbauer Firefox only, for now. The extension plugin is broken until first quarter for Chrome, apparently. On the plus side the Frippery extensions are there too! All in one place, which is nice, but I'd rather they were installed with GNOME itself so I just had to enable them.
 
i hate not having the possibility to organize my virtual desktop as a cluster (rows + cols). Just a row/col is killing my workflows :(
Anyone figured how to get this done?
 
No witty comments from me, just here to state that this is what I feel Open Source is about, the freedom to choose, as the many fans of different DE's have shown in this thread. I started with KDE3, then, KDE 4.0 drove me to Gnome 2, then, Gnome 3 drove me back to KDE. Luckily it was KDE 4.5, and here I'll stay until the next genius ddecides to fix something that works. The Plasmoids (Spasmoids) don't bother me, I only use them minimally and only on panels, not on the desktop. So FWIW, KDE works for me, we're going to feature it in the new siduction distro, along with XFCE and LXDE.
 
Totally dead on. I've said the same thing.
 
Unity and Gnome3 both had show-stoppers for me (e.g., lack of session restore, reserved keyboard shortcuts or missing critical ones, etc.). As someone who needs to get stuff done, I had to abandon ship a few days ago and switch to KDE (kubuntu), which I'm actually pretty happy with so far. +Juan Pablo Lomeli I'm finding KDE infinitely customizable and have been able to configure it to my liking without much trouble.
 
I'm agree with Torvalds post!
 
Have you tried KDE 4 lately? It's gotten much better. That said, I do like GNOME 3. I didn't like it at first, back when I used GNOME 2, so I switched to KDE, but by the time GNOME 3 was out, I had distanced myself from GNOME 2 and was more accepting of 3.
 
Hey, With gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is starting to look Almost usable.
It is very important that Mr. Linus, raises extremely serious if this tool better gnome was part of that is in control panel. The first time you use the Gnome I must have some way to remove this environment makes me want to lose my desktop my icons ....
 
Long Live Gnome 3!!! :D
 
Agreed. For me, Mint 12 with Gnome-Do and Docky is quite usable now.
 
I'm a user of unity and that gnome-tweak-tool is something totally necesary (and gnome-pie too :-) ), other than that I really like it now with the window integrated to main bar is like always I'm using full screen for apps I love that.
 
+Linus Torvalds regarding KDE4, you don't have to use any plasmoids, just set the desktop as "folder view" and it will work pretty much like the classic KDE 3.5.
 
I'm using fedora 16 with gnome 3 and I liked a lot of gnome3 cause its better than gnome2 and easier to use but I just think that all the features of gnome-tweak-tool should be on gnome3 by default ( on the control panel OR like an option ) OR gnome-tweak-tool should be with gnome3 by default... but no problem gnome3 is really cool and I loved it... (y)
 
Over the last 6 months I've tried gnome shell and unity, I've now had my fill of new and my work machine runs gnome 3 with panels...
 
agree. after unity and kde i returned to gnome which already was 3.2 and made him looks like 2.32. not so good, but not sp bad as 3.0
 
+Linus Torvalds I thought you were trying openSUSE now? I know I saw where +Dirk Hohndel was, but thought I'd gotten wind of you as well. Perhaps I heard wrong.
chen lx
 
I just use the gnome-fallback-mode,
 
I think that gnome has always been quite easy to use, but what you mentioned, about finding easy configuration options and all that stuff, of course you're right, it is often quite complicated to administer.
 
I haven't spent much time in Gnome 3, but I'll admit I personally like the direction they've gone. Maybe time will change my mind.
 
+Linus Torvalds How does it logical that accessibility features should be hidden by default. They are for people with visual impairments, they are accessible so that it is easier for them to navigate the interface.

I am not a gnome developer nor do I love the default-setup but jeez, file a bug like everyone else.
If you feel filing bugs is beneath you then your no different to the classical windows convert who moans that everything is not to their liking.

When filling a bug be specific, file multiple bugs if necessarily.

+Florent Jaby You tried it for a day and couldn't get anything done? That's it? Care to be more specific. Did your PC hold you hostage and demand ransom? Gnome is not a terrorist organization, you do have the ability to negotiate. Tell them what works and what doesn't.
If there is something wrong then it wont get fixed until someone points out what is wrong.

+Linus Torvalds
Get with the program or be ignored.
Maybe you have so much people brown nosing you that you have forgotten how to be civil and objective.
 
better than that horrible unity :S
Daryl S
 
I thought none of that stuff was supported by the gnome-devs
 
+John McHugh: learn to read.

I agree that the accessibility features should be on by default.

I do not agree that the way to turn them off (for people who don't need it) is to (a) search for some obscure "extension" and then (b) turn that extension on in order to turn the accessibility features off.

That's just crazy. It should have been an extension/feature that was on by default, and if you want to turn it off, you just turn it off.
 
Here's the thing: I like Gnome 3. I don't necessarily like it for what it is so far, though. I see a lot of promise, for future development. Maybe I've grown too accustomed to Google's "release early, iterate often" strategy, but I see a lot of promise for Gnome 3. I don't think they're going to fulfill all of that promise in a single six month release. The ideas are bold enough, I'm willing to experience a half-finished product, and wait for the finished product.
 
+Linus Torvalds I strongly recommend trying Docky. I was using it on Gnome 2, and I'm still using it with Gnome 3. I find it much better than the Dock extension.
However troll it is using Mono troll.
 
Gnome 3 has pushed me back to Windows for my daily use. I still love Linux, and I miss a lot of its functionality, but until I have time to find a desktop that actually works, I'll just keep linux on the servers and windows on my laptop. What a step backwards. Who's brilliant idea was it to make the actual desktop completely unusable? I like having icons on my desktop for quick access. Sorry, I'll </rant> now.
 
we hope it will become wonderful and useful for most people

ylmfos comes from China
 
+Linus Torvalds So file a bug. Would be great although impossible to get statistics on the amount of bugs filed from people giving negative criticisms on this post.
Maybe things would be different if they did bother to file bugs.
There is no reason why you shouldn't vent about bugs. Link to them while doing it. Get more eyes on them and more people verifying the bug's.
It may be ok for you due to fame but your giving a bad example to follow.
How about judging a project based on the attention it places on bugs and how quickly it takes to resolve them.
 
I haven't try that yet! So I am unable to comment, my friend. Maybe after I try then I am able to drop a few notes on that.......
 
"starting to look almost usable". Oh don't be so harsh to him.
 
I have been using Gnome3 for several months now (on FC16), since it looks like that is going to be my option moving forward (or switching to KDE, which I tried once before and like even less than Gnome3). After some tweaks, I found it is mostly usable, but it still feels horrible compared to what I had before. In particular, I haven't found a good way to get good multi-monitor support, and who's idea was it to put the notifications at the bottom of the screen, where my current line of typing is going to be with no way to move it? I have to resize my window to avoid the bottom few lines when I am printing a bunch of files or else I can't ever see anything I am typing, for example. I also miss having an applet showing system load or character map etc (the hacks I found are poor substitutes).

+John McHugh I personally haven't filed bugs because from what I can tell from reading forums etc the things I dislike about Gnome 3 are by design. I don't mind the bugs so much, as I expect a major rewrite to have its share of bugs, but design decisions aren't likely to change (if they were going to change, the large negative feedback so far surely would have induced it).
 
Usable, Stable, and GUI? NOT ON MY LINUX!

XD
 
+Goran Petrović it looks like requires the totem and a totem's extension,i had installed the gstream but doesn't preview anything, sorry of my pool english
 
I just want to be able to boot into Gnome 3 on my old computer. I'm stuck in the fallback because an 8 year old Celeron doesn't seem to have enough juice. Actually it's probably my graphics card: Intel 82845G. If I didn't have a young son, wife, and a job I'd probably have figured out a way around it by now. Still I don't mind the way the fallback Gnome looks...
 
+John Tamplin - I would advise filing a bug rather than contributing to debate's on forums.
Ux-design is about trying to get the best user experience for the majority of users. In order to do this you need input from the users just like programmers need input from users.
The best system they have for getting input from users around the world right now is bug trackers.
People need to start filing bugs or marking existing bugs as also affecting them.
Once people start doing this then the ux of gnome will get better because they will have more data to base decisions from.
I am a programmer myself and hate the assertion that only programmers deserve a bug report.
I wouldn't waste my time searching and parsing various pools of communication over the web to get input from my users and I don't expect ux-designers should have to either.
If you really want something fixed quickly and efficiently then file a bug, also do it nicely. If you insinuate that they are stupid or political then they will likely ignore you, just like if someone where to insinuate that you are stupid or political you will ignore them.
 
UX is a touchy-feely, subjective thing and really difficult to distill into actionable bugs.
 
GNOME's new slogan: "Hey, at least we're not as bad as Unity!" :)

I like KDE, but the only environment I ever get it working on without crazy backend crashes or inexplicable slowdowns is Gentoo (oddly enough!). Anything pre-compiled seems to be an exercise in frustration. I think Gentoo probably has pretty sane defaults and I only compile in anything else if I truly want it. I think the other distros try the kitchen sink approach to try to include everything anybody wants, but it ends up making it worse IMO. Other than on Gentoo, I pretty much stick to Xfce.

GNOME is pretty... and I do like some of the centralized configuration of online accounts, etc., but I hate most GNOME apps and hate how dumbed down everything is. It's like a desktop for idiots who couldn't afford a Mac.
 
I am this close to finding Gnome3 usable. I filed a few bugs for the most annoying things that still bother me - but my hope is that by Gnome 3.4 we'll forget about the disaster that was Gnome 3.0. 3.2 + the extensions is on the right path.
 
Does it really matter when all am I gonna use is some dev tools, text editor and bash?
 
+Kevin Marshall You are confusing Art with UX.
UX is form follows function not function follows form.
Ux is governed by how the application is used by the users first and foremost. It needs to offer the quickest and most accessible route to the most commonly used functions.
Its up to users to be vocal about what the most commonly used functions are. If they aren't then there is no data to apply the form(design) to.
 
+Linus Torvalds Gnome Shell wastefully underutilizes top screen panel; Unity is better as it puts app's menu there, and not within the app window. In case of Ubuntu, there is also a tweak tool, much more versatile and better looking than gnome-tweak.
 
Actually I'm quite satisfied with Gnome 3.2, sure there are some things that can be improved and it takes a little tweaking to get right, but that also happens with a lot of other Linux software, so I guess I'm now used to hack some things here and there...
 
好像在哪里看见这个头像?
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Wow this has been quite the upset. I have adapted to Gnome 3 after my "run in" with Unity. I would agree with the notion of devs or their supporters defending their UI with the tenacity of a politician! I think they should take note of what the whole world is screaming. Keep the extensions coming...
 
Unity is not that bad and it stays out of the way. Besides that I've heard that Mint has made Gnome 3 usable, haven't tried it though.
 
Mint 13 really does make Gnome 3 nice. I'm running it right now. They've left a menu-like interface for those who prefer it and added another more Unity-like interface (I believe it's called Ubiquity, but I'm not up to date on all these new interfaces!) on top.
 
"Or would that be too close to "Ok, we admit we were wong" and thus not politically acceptable?"

Whats "politically" unacceptable here is that you have made it a habit of yours to spit out your baseless accusations about anything GNOME in your status updates. gnome-tweak-tool has been around since at least the public release of GNOME 3.0 and themes have been in the making, there is nothing to admit here except that GNOME is not yet perfect.
 
+Arsham Shirvani I can guarantee you that if he does go for #3, he will fail very miserably. I have seen only one real GUI app from +Linus Torvalds (submerge or whats the name) and I am hardly impressed by its design. I think he knows that despite being very good at coding in general he actually suck at UIs cause he has had big complains about GNOME for many years now but he hasnt started any Desktop Environment project. Moreover, despite the availability of alternatives (XFCE, KDE etc), he keeps coming back to GNOME. The reason is that deep down he knows GNOME is awesome and is only going to get better and better.

Anyway, he'll get around. Just wait and see!
 
Couldn't agree more. I find I enjoy GNOME Shell more and more as I use it with extensions. It becomes much more usable. It would be very nice to have them installed by default or accessed through a simple setting, but there are ways of working around this. +WebUpd8 has a great PPA housing extensions so some of the better extensions are easy to install.

That being said, I find I'm okay with what so far has been done. It reminds me a lot of some of the older Apple OS systems (OS 6/7 for example) where I always had my favourite extensions that I simply had to use, even if they were from a 3rd party source. Apple never got it perfect right away and developers would jump at the chance to make an extension to make something work just a bit differently. for better or worse.

I for one think that GNOME is heading in the right direction and as long as there are developers willing to theme or extended GNOME in new ways, it will be fun to use.
 
+Shawn Hustle Russel - "I would agree with the notion of devs or their supporters defending their UI with the tenacity of a politician!"

As apposed to someone using their status to get around the processes everyone else has to go through.
It's political in the sense that gnome has more than one user to accommodate. Did you file a bug?

+Zeeshan Ali Its ironic. He must know that if he were to share something like this on irc anonymously for example he would be told to file a bug just like if someone were to say something like this about the power regression on the kernel they would be told to mark a bug as also affecting them.
 
can't wait till gnome matures more. so much better than unity. excited for next couple of releases
 
+John McHugh: what's your "file a bug" problem?

Repeating that mantra doesn't make it any more worthwhile. The gnome3 developers know full well what is going on, "filing a bug" doesn't change anything at all.

The UI problems with Gnome-3 were well-known long before I started complaining. "Filing a bug" doesn't magically make things better. Why should the gnome people care about me filing a bug any more than they cared about the hundreds of people who complained to them originally?
 
+John McHugh I was mostly referring to the Ubuntu community and the way I was cast out for pointing out certain aspects of the Unity interface I found unusable. All I'm saying is: the fervor level is high right now
 
Are you the real Linus Torvalds... The one who created linux
 
Yeah, his account is verified, you can check
 
I used to use Gnome/KDE before I realised there were other options available, I dislike both of them, partially for the reasons listed above, but mostly because they shove apps and dependencies on me that I don't want or need.

This is why I moved to XFCE and later LXDE, because they are light in resource usage and let me choose the apps I want without thousands of dependencies, I mean, it's still pretty bad, even on gentoo many things require gnome or kde libraries which I HATE, but at least I'm not getting apps I'll never used shoved on me, sitting there wasting precious hard drive/menu space.

Also, XFCE/LXDE do have easy to configure settings and don't really hide these from the user as far as I can tell.
 
+Linus Torvalds - Are you serious. Why file a bug for the kernel? There has been a power regression in it the past few releases and the developers know well whats going on.
They don't need to aggregate data on what hardware its happening with and who its affecting do they?
Filing bugs as you should know at this point helps coordinate releases and allocate the finite resources available.
They help break problems down into manageable tasks. Fix the problems that affect the most people.
To say that filing bugs is not worthwhile is the same as saying developers should prioritize your needs over everyone else.
 
I have to agree. When it comes to UI filing bugs rarely changes anything. For over a year I raised a big issue with the fact that Ubuntu's default theme(s) have a hard to resize 1px border. They placed frill over function and instead of waiting till they had a larger "invisible" border to grab, just made it difficult for Everyone to resize windows (including my 75 year old neighbor). The tyranny of the default is the fallacy that people can actually change things. MOST DON'T.
 
+John McHugh: filing bug reports is useful. Just not in this case. It's a known problem. I've talked to gnome developers in person. They don't need a bug report. Trust me on this. They seem to feel that they need different users.
 
Linux mint 12 really does a nice job of de-crapifying gnome 3
 
All in all, I think Gnome has made its choice, and time will tell whether or not they're successful. Obviously, not even Linus can sway them, and adding a new bug to the hundreds of identical entries only creates clutter and annoys people. People will vote with their feet. It's what Linux (both the kernel and the OS) is all about!

FYI, +John McHugh The power regression was a bit inflated by Phoronix et al to begin with. ON top of that and there is a fix, it just hasn't merged in as far as i know.

Edited: Here's a comma, there's a comma...
 
Don't want to be Yet Another KDE Fan commenting, but I'm quite happy that KDE are at least letting my use my desktop as a desktop. Everyone else seems to want to turn my keyboard-and-mouse-driven desktop interface into a finger-friendly tablet interface. Because everyone knows that desktop screens just magically turn into multi-touch monitors, right guys?

With Mac OS, Windows and Gnome all heading towards half-assed tablet interfaces on the desktop, at least KDE is keeping them separate. As it happens, I also feel that KDE is actually putting out currently the most complete free software tablet interface available, with perhaps Android as an exception. Gnome Shell and Unity might make sense on a tablet, but none of the Gnome apps do.
 
Yep. This happened to come at a time when I was reinstalling Ubuntu and ready to try new things. I think if I had started with Gnome 3.0 I would have been one of the naysayers.
 
Also, i'll ask this of +Linus Torvalds. how would you design an interface?

I'm not being facetious, I'm honestly curious about what you personally value in a DE.
 
+Linus Torvalds Sometimes I think you're trolling deliberately. If you don't like Gnome 3 noone's forcing you to use it. I know a lot of people who quite like what Gnome 3 has turned out to be (me among them). There's always room for improvement. And seeing that it is only just two versions old, so to speak, the journey has just started. There was an uproar when Gnome 2 was released and now people are complaining that Gnome 3 isn't like Gnome 2. How perceptions can change...

That last sentence of your post, though, is just plain old trolling.
 
Got your attention though didn't it? and this discussion?

This is the most positively productive flamebaiting i've seen in a long time.
 
+Christian von Kietzell You mean, apart from the fact that the Gnome 2 interface - which, I should point out, was perfectly acceptible - is now completely unsupported by Gnome. Don't kid yourself - you can't just point at Gnome 3 and say definitely, "Yes, that's an improvement". It's different. It's only different. And what they've given with one hand, they've taken away with the other. Some people liked Gnome 2, and the Gnome developers are now telling them that they're wrong to and they should move to Gnome 3.
 
I think that at this point KDE 4.x has reached a maturity that is suffecient even if some of the default apps do quite frankly suck. It would be nice to see an option for plasma messages to look and act more like they do in ayatana (ubuntu's style). That was really a useable change and one of the few good things they did.

Also, KDE does play nicely without using the default apps. No one is forcing you to use KMail or Strigi, etc. One thing I do like about KDE is its relative modularity.

Any thoughts on this? Also, I apologise if I am coming off as evangelical. As much as I and everyone else liked Gnome 2, I don't see the devs admitting their mistakes. They are way too cocky for that, and unfortunately I see the same attitude in many ways from the KDE devs. Sometimes it feels like being between a rock and a hard place.

Is it too much for the devs of the major DEs to listen to their userbase?
 
I've yet to hear a GNOME developer admit that they alienated their user base.

I'm using Xfce now.
 
I'm sure that (hopefully) soon, they'll integrate everything together. I'm really sick and tired that there are so many "tweak" tools running around for GNOME 3. Everything should just be integrated into System Settings. That makes a lot more sense!

Also, removing the favorites bar from the Activities menu and putting in a small dock on the bottom of the desktop would go a long ways to making GNOME more useable and accessible. Having a similar set up with Docky in GNOME 2.x was awesome, and I miss it...
 
I prefer Gnome 2, it was much simpler to use, gnome 3 is like +100% on looks and 10% of utility, I am was not able to find my regular application launchers and I have switched over to lxde.
 
+Aaron Moore IIRC the fix involves blacklisting hardware which doesn't play nice. Filing bugs helps in knowing what hardware to blacklist in the first place.

+Allan Registos - Hypocrisy is expecting people to file bugs for your project when you couldn't be bothered filing bugs for other projects. Go read my first comments. I said that there wasn't a problem venting issues as long as you point to bugs.

All users are told to file bugs, including Linus. What happens when you go on irc and make a complaint? Your told to file a bug.
I wont take this thread seriously as the comment Linus made about filing bugs not being worthwhile has already received 6+. What a great example.
 
And extensions.gnome.org does seem very cool, even if for some reason I can't use the dock extension from there on mu OpenSUSE notebook. ("This extension is incompatible with your version of gnome shell" - so apparently 3.2.1 isn't good).
 
+Marcus Harrison I'm not debating that Gnome 3 is a radical departure from Gnome 2's interface. But that is what it was planned to be. And I for one like what I've got. I've been using it for months and for my daily work it's a definite improvement. Gnome 3 gets in the way a lot less for me than Gnome 2 did. Besides, perfectly acceptable is a matter of opinion. You can never definitely say anything about software. What tickles one user's fancy appears horrible to another. Only time will tell how Gnome 3 turns out and if it was a failure for the majority of users.
 
+John McHugh I never said filing bugs isn't worthwhile, but filing a bug actually implies that the software isn't functioning as intended. As it stands, Gnome 3.2 works very much as intended. It's just that many users dislike WHAT that intent is. To me, filing a bug against a software that lacks a feature or has something you don't like, but functions as normal dilutes the idea of a bug report somewhat. Then again, this also assumes that there's some sort of suggestion box aside from purely technical bugs; Which, AFAIK, there isn't for GNOME. It's a tough distinction to make, i'll grant that.
 
+John McHugh: No, the fix does not involve hardware at all. My hardware works fine.

The main problem with gnome shell has been the UI. Not having a dock to start programs from? Hiding the "shut down" button? Getting rid of all the application menus?

The extensions are finally fixing some of the crazy holes left. The UI seems to have been designed either for fat-fingered tablet users or for keyboard users, but not the traditional "I have a mouse and I want to use it" kind of crowd.
 
I like gnome3. They changed everything, and put stuff in tidy places that make sense. I still haven't been able to compile the brain module that make my human intuition compatible with it, though...
 
+Linus Torvalds So the PCI-E ASPM fix didn't involve disabling the feature on some hardware(blacklist)?
I don't think you read the comment I responded to.
Kinda funny considering you have told me to learn how to read :)
 
Lot of things annoyed me about gnome 3. Mint Linux does a good job so far with their extension package, but lot of feature missing. Gnome 3 shell also get very slow with a few windows open, kinda killing anything that it had going for them. Also the last stupid problem I had was that you can't configure a network interface unless a network link is detected. I had to change from static IP to DHCP before plugging to the network or else I would cause conflict... But I couldn't using the standard UI).
 
+John McHugh: Nobody ever talked about ASPM, we were talking about gnome-shell bug-reports and the lack of point to them.

And no, for the record, the fix for the ASPM issue doesn't actually involve blacklisting hardware either. It just involves re-interpreting what the undocumented MS ACPI rules are supposed to mean.

The point stands: you seem to not understand that there are "bugs" and then there are "bugs". Writing bug-reports is good - usually. But writing bug-reports is only useful if the developers are interested in them, and consider them to be bugs.

If they don't consider them to be bugs, you can only complain about their lack of common sense.
 
+Tom Wroblewski I couldn't agree more! (Really, I wish I could +3 your report). I used KDE3, than KDE4 and that strange plasma things moved me to Gnome2 (years of KDE usage!). Now Gnome3 made me swallow KDE4, and here I'll stay until some genius make change the usability to worst (if that is possible)!
 
+Linus Torvalds - still try running Pidgin and all chat notifications just go to an invisible "notification" bar...whole point of customizable interface is gone because only Empathy is integrated by default...this is just one example...and I can go on.
 
+Linus Torvalds The comment I responded to from +Aaron Moore - "FYI, +John McHugh The power regression was a bit inflated by Phoronix et al to begin with. ON top of that and there is a fix, it just hasn't merged in as far as i know."

So yes people did talk about it, its what I responded to.

What do you mean by re-interpreting what the rules are supposed to mean? You are going through windows drivers finding which hardware has the feature disabled and disabling accordingly. Sounds like blacklisting to me.

If bugs were treated seriously then you wouldn't need to rummage through windows drivers.
 
Running G3 on Ubuntu 11.10. Desktop just locks up randomly. Going to go old school and move to CWM I think. Let's see if it will compile. KDE4 is just ugly. Need to write a WM with VI bindings....
 
Both Unity & G3 are unusable bullshit until they're heavily customized by the end-user.
 
+John McHugh - would that not be nice. Unfortunately for many hardware vendors "works with Windows" is equivalent to "works as per spec" so following Windows behavior is sometimes the only sane option.
 
+John McHugh: you don't know what you are talking about. The patch for ASPM has nothing to do with blacklisting anything. You're just blathering now.

Anyway, you can see the patch here:

http://lkml.org/lkml/2011/11/10/467

with the thread talking about some of the issues (ie it likely won't be marked for stable at least initially, because it's potentially going to cause other problems, and while "bad power use" is bad, it's much less bad than "machine doesn't work", which has been a real issue)

There's no blacklisting, no nothing. That "ACPI_FADT_NO_ASPM" flag is a bit in the ACPI tables. The patch changes how we interpret it.

Yes, we blacklist buggy hardware and firmware at times. And what has that got to do with anything anyway? We do care about bugs, and we will try to fix them even when they aren't ours. The user doesn't care why his machine has problems, he just wants it to work.

Anyway, you're just trying to change the subject to a total red herring.
 
Gnome Classic in Mint 12 is usable. It can be customized to resemble a Gnome 2 DE.
 
arch linux is way too cool. though i use chakra, the kde version of arch.. had a terrible experiance with gnome 3 with fedora 15..
 
I don't get why there is so much hate about Unity UI. Sure it may take a bit of getting used to, but I wonder if people who make comments have really tried it extensively enough to provide anything substantial at all. Yep it doesn't feel right some of the "basic" settings weren't in the default but is it so hard to make them work? No, not at all. Again, system versus users. :)
 
Unity is not bad. The Apple like menu bar is great except the fact that it does not play well with focus follows settings. 
 
I do really like #gnome3. It still has to improve, but it already did from 3.0. Lots of people is winning, not because Gnome3 is bad, but because is different from what they had. I think it is not fair. I use other environments (MacOS and Windows) and, I belief, Gnome3 is the most consistent.
 
+Cédric Martínez Campos - if they did not call it Gnome 3.0 since it is radically different from Gnome 2, then probably people would be less upset. When people see version bump (even major) they are likely to assume that the product is similar to the previously released. If they'd call it, for example, Goblin 1.0 then the reception would be completely different.
 
I'm just not comfortable with the shell, I've migrated to Xfce and I'm happy with it, so i'm gonna stick with it but stay in touch with any changes of gnome
 
GNOME 3 is definitely neat, easy-to-use, and productive for average desktop users(including myself)... only if the user could find that there is a bunch of useful extensions in the repositories of his/her favourite distribution. My before and after impressions about the GNOME 3 were not different with Linus -- fresh installation of GNOME 3 hides too much functionalities including the basic user customisation tools! >_<
 
thank you Linus, for expressing what so many of us have been b***ching about on forum threads and private IM's for months... lol
 
It could be worse.. it could be unity :) I just hope that when I upgrade to Gnome3 (for the forth time) it's more stable. Had sooooo many issues and missing features I use. But it is getting there.
 
I was using GNOME until version 3 came out. I don't like that new look&feel of gnome-shell... Therefore I switch to KDE4. That was annoying :(. Now I run LXDE on my Arch System and I'm happy :D. May it look old-styled and it's not easy configurable (except through openbox config files), but it's fast and lightweight.
 
Weren't you a KDE user? How'd you even end up in this fight?
 
Gnome 3 lacks
1) tiling stuff
2) adequate multidisplay handling (for instance unique workspaces across displays)

But I use Gnome3 on workstations with sole display.
 
I have G3 on Arch,Fedora and openSUSE. Now emerging it too on Gentoo..probably will do on Debian(once tried and broken)too
 
I actually have started to quite like Gnome-Shell over the past couple of months. At first I was very unproductive, but after giving it some solid time to grow on me...it has done just that.

Granted, I can see flaws when they are present, and Gnome 3 does not have them in short supply. The surprising lack of features is depressing to say the least, but it is something that they are working on. Also, they are doing a really nice "Every Detail Matters" campaign right now to get almost all of the small tiny bugs fixed.

This is something that I wish KDE would accomplish. I LOVE KDE don't get me wrong, but they have had small bugs present for close to 4 years now in KDE4 that STILL have not gotten fixed, I am really appreciating how much attention the Gnome develepors are at fixing the little things as well as new features. Similarly, I am loving the care and attention that multi-monitor setups have gotten with Gnome-Shell. FINALLY a multi-monitor desktop environment that doesn't look thrown together at the last minute!!! So, while I am critical of the things Gnome 3/Shell is lacking, I also applaud the things that it has improved and the direction in which it is going. And, as this is a free world, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and this just so happens to be mine. :-D

I would also like to note that I agree with all of the criticisms and observations that Linus has made above, but I can only give the gnome team props for genuinely trying to change the desktop world rather than just giving us a 2011 rendition of the same desktop that we have had for years. (Though the view that it is being 'forced down my throat' is equally valid.) But, then again, I am someone who loves change and hates stagnicity ;-)
 
Totally agree. Both the current versions of Unity and Gnome are unusable without the tweaks.
 
Why is it so hard for people to admit mistakes? If you can't admit to one, you can't learn from it. If you stop learning you ultimately fail.
 
Yes, I agree on the usability. It's almost getting there. I just don't like seeing gnome shell on top of top. It's still using too much resources. They still need to make some cool, stable applets to put on top panel. System monitor applet is not even close to that of gnome 2. And finally Arch Linux FTW!!!
 
What's your take on unity? I know your not big on ubuntu since its not really aimed at kernel development, but I would like your take on the new ui if you had a chance to fiddle with it. I hated the first release, but its getting polished up to the point that its actully usable. Albeit, it has that "GIANT ICON" look. Like anyone who uses a computer must be fucking blind
 
Kde would be fine if 1. They where no obsessed with widgets! And 2. If they didn't have 30 different paths to 7 different configuration windows that did exactly the same damn thing. Whenever I try to troubleshoot someones problem on kde it goes something like "ok, rightclick on the desktop, now go to advanced options, then systems" "I don't see advanced options. I just see options" "well, your on the file manager. Just go to properties then advanced" "alright" "now go to display" "I only see monitor" "ok, that's weird. Go to start, then configuration" "I see display in configuration" "no, that a different display" "now advanced options" "no, that's advanced display options.. seriously.. who fuckin designed this?!?"
 
Except that gnome-shell appears (from what I have been able to dig up about it) to be unable to deal with multiple "screens" (in X11 nomenclature, I do mean "screens" and not "monitors" -- screens as in :0.0, :0.1, etc.). I like to have two separate screens with their own array of virtual desktops that I can switch amongst independently of each other. Gnome-shell seems unable to even start with such a configuration. BadMatch and somesuch. :-(

Guess it's time to try out Linux Mint's MATE.
 
full ack @ linus.... tryed it for myself with opensuse 12.1 and mint lisa... esp. the task bar in mint is very useful....
everything is better than unity... :)
 
Is the Magic "Alt" button still needed for shutdown? This is the point where Gnome 3 clearly failed usability, when people can't shutdown their computer anymore without a manual.
 
Oh yeah, I also lack an option to write my own hooks for events in the Gnome3 environment.
 
Seemingly they ported some of the features of Gnome 2's "Appearance settings" into this tool. Nice.
 
If nothing else they've stirred up the desktop environment world more with gnome3 then anyone else has in a while. Just when they're starting to hook a bunch of people on their product, BAM, change it all and start with a mostly new user base for the next release. It would be interesting to see how many people have migrated, or are getting ready to if 3.2 isn't to their liking...
 
I'm not satisfied with either approach, and I'm really thinking of going back to windows (after 16 years of linux).
Gnome 3 looks like "hey, Apple is up to something we don't understand, let's do something similar, it can't be wrong".
Linux Mint is another "We know better than you" distro: "you don't update, you do a backup and reinstall". "Ubuntu is bad because it doesn't force you to do a backup". "Did we mention the backup?"
 
easy to find and easy to modify, that would be great, GNOME guys...
 
+Mathias Hasselmann Perhaps it's too late for Ubuntu to back up? Mint is there, and has done all the work neglected by Ubuntu in order to make Gnome 3 a somewhat less aggresive experience for the average user.
 
+Bruno Unna No idea. Have to admit I enjoy Unity/3D. Gives me maximum screen space. Still have functional launcher icons and workspaces. Additional benefit from small animations when QtCreator finishes, or when messages arrive. Their start menu looks hideous, but launching rarely used apps by typing few letters of the application name or description works good enough. They'll fix the style: Ubuntu doesn't follow dogmas.
 
Shell is evolving away from the DE, I spend most of my type writing using the keyboard and unitya support for thay makes it the better DE pressing super+1 to get to my files is guickwr then moving my hand over my track pad and finding it in the overview mode. Shell ignores the needs of a DE and is becoming a tablet envoirment
 
+Bruno unna unity is getting better. They have been listening to the complaints and fixing a lot of them. Like moving away from "lol, search fo everything!", more customizations and a more traditional organized list of applications readily available. I guess the devs got tired of me yelling at them on irc.
 
Almost usable still isn't usable.. I'll stick with KDE for now.
 
They're not writing a desktop for people who know what they want.
 
Gnome3 made me love XFCE4. I am even more productive now.
 
I ran away when Gnome 3 hit Debian Testing... Now I'm with Openbox...
Hawk H
+
2
3
2
 
I don't like the new KDE and GNOME desktops. They all are too slow and buggy.
 
Not had any problems with Unity here. Guess the haters gotta hate.
 
- Gnome 2 -> Happy
- Unity -> !Happy
- Gnome 3 -> !Happy
- Gnome 3 + Fallback -> !Happy
- XFCE4 -> Happy(ish) again
 
+Matze Neumann Linus already gave that link and said that the Dock extension on the website does not work.


By the way, I wonder how Linus could open bugs that wouldn't be marked as duplicate, or say anything on those bugs that has not already been said.There are already 119 comments on the Power button issue, it doesn't seem to make any Gnome dev' willing to change anything about this.
 
dang, I was already watching xfce4-dev list for patches from Linus Torvalds and you still play with gnome3 :-P
 
+Christian von Kietzell The problem with GNOME 3 is that they broke user-experience unecessarily. You can see Linus and Alan Cox explain it here:

http://felipec.wordpress.com/2011/11/21/no-project-is-more-important-than-its-users/

+Zeeshan Ali You must have not gotten the point. Linus is saying the tweaks and the extensions should be part of GNOME; as in the control center by default.

+John McHugh You are clearly just trolling and throwing red herrings. Linus already shattered your misconceptions about the PCI-E issue, but I want to high-light that this is a completely different issue.

Neither the PCI-E fix or the bug break user-experience at all; it's GNOME 3 that completely and totally breaks user-experience. And patches for the PCI-E issue are welcome, unlike patches for GNOME 3.

If Linus had filed bugs, they would be immediately closed as WONTFIX. Here, see how somebody already tried that:

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=650550

So, Linus is right. I also have talked with GNOME developers, they wouldn't allow such changes for dogmatic reasons. Their arguments are easily crushed, but that doesn't matter.

+Wheezy Goth No. Many of us actually tried to used it and adapt. It's just less efficient. Period.

+Petar Bešlić Being pretty is not the most important aspect of a desktop, it's being usable.

+Liz ℚuilty What do you mean it doesn't integrate? That's what freedesktop.org is for.
 
I've found that gnome 3 works nicely on my 12" laptop, trying it on my work computer, the 'features' made it almost impossible to use, and I managed to crash my computer too many times... (ubuntu PPAs)
 
who are you and how do you end up in my google +? i dont remember adding you
 
+gerònimo felartigas Nice well thought out reply there - i like things to "just work" because i work full time and have kids, and if i have spare time i like to spend it trying to be popular on google+ with Linuxy folks rather than configuring oddities :)
 
Sometimes i think that the linux GUI should be refactored from point 0
 
wooow Linus Torvalds... let me bow down before you for a moment :) i'm glad i have the opportunity to add you to my circles
 
Yes, it happened the same to me. Since I use the dock extension it's a little more usable.
 
Well I dont use it at all I mean Xfce is ten times better than gnome will ever be ! I love robust and usable interface ! Lxde and XFCE are the best
 
Extensions such as dock, etc. have already been around with 3.0 - i agree that there is some lack for the OOTB (out-of-the-box) experience - but if you dig into the configuration with plugins you can puzzle your desktop exactly the way you like it. For example, you can even replace the default behaviour of ALT-TAB for example which sucks IMHO. alternate-tab-switcher brings you back to well known behaviour ... I think the best idea would be to have a combination of what you propose with the "system config" thing and some sort of "android market" like app thing which allows to get extensions and install them from online with no hassle doing the job. (and for security using mechs like rpm does anyways with signing, checksumming, etc.)
 
I can not say that the latest version of the dock was not usability)
 
i started with kde, tried gnome2.0 then removed it, it really did emulate the name gnome, as everything was small and anoying lol
 
After gnome3 creeped in Debian/testing, I honestly tried to use it for 1month, then I gave up and switched to XFCE . This comments space is way too short to express all ways in which Gnome3 sucks.
 
I agry with +John McHugh - Accessibility icon should be visible by default to avoid a complicated access to this menu
 
Hello Sir,
Can u teach me how to modify a shell using linux kernal and make a my own developed Linux for public use
 
i can never taste gnome3, i kinda got hooked with tiling windows manager..
 
i usually enjoy your bitter remarks, although i don't agree with most of them, but this time i'm with you. not that my support would be essential for the cause, but i woke up this morning feeling like this. i miss gnome :(
 
I hated Unity, but like gnome Shell and the way it follows
 
Hey, Linus. Maybe, you have to give it a re-try to KDE again. It progressed quite well after you stopped using it.

Cheers,

Tarkan
 
Linus, while gnome-3.2 may be close to getting almost usable, kde4.7 (soon 4.8) is highly functional right now.
 
Dont know, I tried gnome 3 for the first time the other day. Although it may have some visually appealing elements, I found it very difficult to use, a lot harder in fact than Ubuntu's Unity. If I had to choose between them all. I would go this order Gnome2, Unity, XFCE, KDE, Gnome3. My Choices.
 
Linus, thank you for sharing this. Now I know that my ThinkPad and I will have some issues to "discuss" this weekend :-)
 
Gnome carries good potential because of the ease of use (important for ARM) - personally from the beginning will be more than kde, because of its devouring memory
 
All you need is love XFCE
 
Too late... I'm already using XFCE. More stable and fast. No way I'm going back to GNOME.
 
+Linus Torvalds : it's not like KDE makes you use plasma widgets, if you don't like them, don't use them. The DE is still highly functional when you don't.
 
+Wheezy Goth No?! Nothing on XFCE?! That only tells me one thing: you never tried XFCE (at least not lately). Let me say this much: if you pass by my PC, you'll think it's GNOME2. Feels the same, but without the bugs and a lot faster. I'm even using Nautilus (for the RabbitVCS, which is unusable in Thunar). Even Compiz is better on XFCE. Believe me: there is no going back to GNOME, not even KDE, even less UNITY (I'm a Fedora guy).
 
+Robert Budzyński KDE4 sucks with or without plasma. You simple can't use the desktop for your current documents. Yes, there is an option, but it's unusable.
 
I use Xubuntu but minimize the main bar and use Cairo Dock instead. Performs well on my old machine and still have "eye candy".

I tried Unity in 11.04 and 11.10. The launcher is *slightly" improved but still sucks and I just hate, hate, hate putting the window menu up on the task bar (that I cannot seem to move to the bottom). I can't tell you how many times I would mess up or start to mess up because the active window was not the one I thought it was.

Ubuntu needs to back away from Unity and what seems to be an attempt to turn my desktop into a tablet.

My experiment with Gnome 3 was even more brief and equally annoying
 
Agree: The Gnome people seem to have a hard time admitting obvious mistakes. By mistake, I also mean the "I've written on my flag that I want to provide the best and easiest user experience to my users. One big part of my users disagrees with my opinion of 'easy', 'good', and 'using.' They're wrong."-part.
 
Gnome 3 sucks....
Adding themes to it is really cumbersome in F15..
Jose Ch
 
I think Gnome 3.4 would be the Gnome we want. Love Gnome 3
C:
 
Perhaps I should try Gnome 3 at some point. But latest Ubuntu 11.10 with Unity feels to be pretty decent.
Axel H
 
Ever had a look at the "proxy settings" in the network preferences. A piece of sh... If I'd like to restricted in customization of the UI, I'd have picked windows or mac osx. Gnome team: u suck.
Axel H
+
1
2
1
 
Gnome WAS usable before 3.0 or better before the gnome team started to patronize their users.
Axel H
 
I like Unity and the concept, too btw. I am actually using it at the moment. But I want freedom on a free os. Am I asking for too much? o.O
 
Linus, you're awesome. Amazing you stay sane in a world full of corrupt egos and petty nonsense, glad you've stayed clear and have kept a pragmatic mind throughout. Bravo.
 
I will wait some more with xfce until either gnome admits they were totally wrong or it becomes really useful / customisable again!
 
I've been cheating and using their fallback panels with my own custom applets. The minute they drop support for fallback panels, I'll be heading over to XFCE, too.
 
Can't you, as the linux god, command them to make it easier to do
 
and what about the ATI cards?....will work correctly some day? =(
 
Gnome project is evolving to more semantic more intelligent system. I like the gnome way. Why i bought an ATI card :'(
 
Gnome 3 is more usable than Ubuntu's Unity.
 
I also highly recommend the "native window placement" extension. It makes identifying windows in the Activities Overview 3x easier for my brain, because it preserves the relative sizes of windows.
Translate
 
I THINK GMOME 3.2 IS FAR GREATER THAN ITS PREVIOUS VERSIONS............GNOME 3 SUCKS NOT USABLE......
 
I like the "politically not acceptable" thing. I was always thinking that computer programming should not be politics, but of course I see too often that it is as it is medicine and all kinds of things in life. I am not doing politics and hate when it comes into things I like to do. I am with it on it Linus. :)
 
Is there a guy back talking to Linus? There is so much arrogance here and no respect at all.
 
There's nothing "wrong" about it, just not what you prefer. Who are you to decide the direction they take their software?
 
I didn't like it at first. On my netbook though, it's fantastic. I used a few extensions, then grabbed MGSE and used it.
I really don't like the "extension system" though. The modularity is so static, it's frustrating. They need to just include gnome-tweak-tool, since gsettings is awful to use, in my opinion. Org.arbitrary.hierarchy.tree.gnome-shell.extension.blah.blah = [unexplained,structure,of,configuration,array,here]

But choice is what's fun about linux:
http://i.imgur.com/5DdbS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pGf4n.png
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/3145/screenshotat20111130091.png

Gnome3 really just needs more dynamic customization with a better configurator (gsettings is not a good configurator, lets be honest. Give me a decent front-end to it, please [{d,g}conf-editor is not a decent front-end])
 
It isn't like the GNOME team committed a murder, they simply went one direction and not the other. There is no right or wrong, just maybe not the best decision.
 
I'm way behind the little fellas. I'm still with openbox/tint2 LOL
 
+Mathieu Ruellan No shit? Pulse uses 20% CPU on my N900 while listening plain music.
Most of the features presented in Pulse should be in ALSA/kernel module, somewhat like in OSS4.
Pulse ain't anything close to K.I.S.S.
 
Gnome 3 FallBack mode (aka "Classic Shell wit effects") looks like Gnome 2. Just use Alt+RightClick on panels/bars to customize as you wish.
 
How about an "I admit I was wrong"? Being the creator of the kernel does not give you the right to put people and their project down! Please don't
 
I personally really like it, but I also like the other extreme of the de and wm spectrum (currently I'm loving i3 on arch). Give everything a fair chance
 
Wow, somebody used Linux for a year. I'd definitely avail myself of his expert advice if I were you, Linus.
 
I hope so too! I want to customize my Linux!
 
Dear +Ali J
Linux is already both fairly simple and efficient, the code is laid out in an easy to find and follow format.

For example file system and binary format code (elf, vfat, cramfs, inode, file handlers) are in the fs folder, memory management (slab, buddy allocators) in mm, block devices (like io scheduling) in block, kernel features (mutexing, spinlock, scheduler etc) in kernel, and lastly architecture-specific optimizations (process handling) in arch.

As far as efficiency, where it matters most, Linux is very efficient, so efficient that it sacrifices sane code for efficiency, just go ahead and read, err, get lost in page_alloc.c code (as it deals with memory, you will find it in mm). It's highly optimized, often down to specific architectures (like ia64, x86, x86_64, ppc), and its but one example of the kernel's focus on efficiency, where it counts most.

First explore, then research, then understand, then make suggestions/improvements; and don't skip over the middle steps.

As i just glimpsed over page_alloc.c (again), i'm going to go ahead and run in fear....

I leave you with a quote.
"A little learning is a dangerous thing, but a lot of ignorance is just as bad" ~ Bob Edwards
 
i personally like the changes the mint team made to gnome. They added a ton of functions and the ability to customize the desktop.
 
+Ali J what is it I'm supposed to have bothered reading from some nobody who doesn't even use his full name? The only thing that you've posted is that you used Linux (for a whole year!) and you want Linux to be "simpler."

Granted I'm a newcomer to Linux, only having used it professionally since 1999.
Ed Dich
 
Seems like this thread could be cleaned up a bit to keep it more readable on the subject. +Felipe Contreras I really liked your comment about "The desktop shouldn't be good looking but useful". I have the feeling since KDE3 was abandoned and lame KDE4 launched that somehow people tend to make it good-looking rather then functional - which kde3 was!
Ed Dich
 
+Linus Torvalds I understand your point in not filing any more bug reports, but after all linux and everything around it are community efforts (by large). Maybe someone someday picks the Gnome3 code up and forks to something more usable? And what if the bug reports play a role then? (BTW, I guess the first thing to happen was to leave Gnome2 as Gnome and start Gnome3 as a new project. Same true for KDE3->KDE4 transition).
 
Yes, you're somebody. But by attacking someone else's publicly disclosed credentials while hiding behind semi-anonymity, I think you can see how you open yourself up to charges of being nobody. I do apologize, though.

At any rate, neither i not anyone else here has any idea what you're talking about when you say simplicity. Granted, the available GUI shells for Linux aren't that great (from what I can tell -- I just use Emacs anyway) and command-line shells aren't for everyone. But they're just shells, and not really part of the OS. I'm not sure you understand that. Rewriting Linux itself (ie the kernel) from the ground up to solve some usability issue is equivalent to replacing the engine in your car because you find the seats uncomfortable and the dashboard layout cluttered.
 
Come on, I've been using cairo-dock since fedora15 beta with gnome3.0 and gnome-tweak-tool and its always work fine! now I'm using gnome Sabayon with gnome 3.2.1 and ciarodock and gnome-tweak-tool just fine as before!
 
I am running Archlinux with gnome3/shell and the mint extensions, along with a couple of others, and I feel like it is completely usable now.
 
I still prefer using Gnome-fallback / GNOME Classic. It's simple and intuitive and doesn't have pointless restrictions. Compiz seems to be broken at the moment though, which is kind of annoying.
 
yeah, simply the fact that everybody talks about and seems to need gnome shell extensions right now is a solid indication that the gnome3 designers are wrong about many of the little usability things that determine if a platform is a joy or a pain to use. even I with all the will to adapt found gnome 3.0 basically unusable. let's just hope this lack of sound defaults is just a transitory thing because of the early stage of gnome3s evolution. I have high hopes for gnome 3.10. :-)
 
To me, experiments GNOME 3 developers do on their product and user base are a bit reminiscent of experiments Dr. Josef Mengele conducted on the so-called Untermenschen. Not so much about lethal outcome, of course, but about the general attitude, and about being carried away by some Big Ideas little people will never be able to understand.

And when I look at it another day, it's totally like a course work on UI design done by a pimply-faced undergraduate student which first got a firm C (nice work but the details vary between underthought and totally screwed), and then all of a sudden became mainstream for no particular reason.
 
+Ali Janah The reason we are not on the same page actually spans from your confusion as to what exactly Linux is, and what you actually meant (perhaps without realizing) by "rewrite Linux".

Wikipedia tells you that Linux is a Unix-like operating system assembled under the FOSS model. The defining component of the said operating system is the Linux kernel, originally written (starting sometime in April 1991, making first mention of it on the comp.os.minix Usenet newsgroup on the 25th of August, 1991 after having ported bash and gcc to it) and released (September 1991, version 0.01) by none-other than +Linus Torvalds The rest of the operating system is a loosely-defined assembly of FOSS tools and utilities; without going to many other details, what makes an operating system a Linux operating system is the Linux kernel i.e. Ubuntu is Linux, Linux is not Ubuntu.

Linux kernel is to Linux as metal beams are to a sky scraper. The loose assembly of programs around the Linux kernel is called a Linux distribution, these include core utilities, as well as user interfaces, all programs that use various kernel abstraction layers to execute user-functions. Distributions are the different sky scrapers, they all share the metal beam structure, but the other things around the beams can be quite different and thus produce quite different buildings. So you are dissatisfied with the look of the Empire State Building, thinking that you want to see Burj al Arab, saying that the engineers should change from metal beams to something better when you say to rewrite Linux. The understanding is that you are asking to rewrite the Linux kernel, because everything around it is just other software that is assembled differently for different distributions, think Android vs Ubuntu, the applications (including UI) around the kernel are quite different, i hope you can see that, while both are still Linux operating systems because they both run the Linux kernel.

From there, i can see that your dissatisfaction is with the UI, not Linux, not sure which UI, as there are so many (Gnome, KDE, XFCE, FVWM, Fluxbox, Blackbox, Unity, etc to name a few), i would suggest to approach the UI developers with this idea of changing the user experience vs trying to tell Linus about the savannas in Africa...

I am not trying to be hard on you Ali, I am trying to hopefully spark your interest to research, learn, and possibly some day contribute to what this whole Linux thing actually is.
 
+Ivan Nieto Sí que hay screenshoots, en la página de Gnome por ejemplo, pero mejor busca en youtube y verás la que han liado. Yo estoy como Linus, poniendo extensiones para poder tener un escritorio usable. Y ahora lo intento traducir con mi inglés de andar por casa. :P

Sure you can find screenshots, i.e. in the Gnome web page, but may be interesting if you search in youtube. I'm in the same situation than Linus, installing extensions in order to make an useful desktop manager.
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I stopped using Ubuntu a couple of years ago because I needed speech-to-text software, but just returned to Ubuntu 11.10.

Unity is an absolute disaster and GNOME 3 is unusable. Everyone is copying the worst aspects of Mac, and removing options to configure it back. The tragedy is not that people are experimenting -- it's that they are forcing their experimentations on users who don't want it.

Everyone is drinking the iPad/Mac Kool-aid. If I wanted to use crApple products I would buy a Mac. I want my options back. I started using Linux about 7 years ago -- why should experienced users have to spend a week to configure the computer to get work done? My computer still isn't working. It's forcing me to do things a way I don't want to do them.

IMHO, Ubuntu/GNOME2 was (formerly) the greatest OS ever developed. It's really a disaster what people are doing to it.

XFCE is okay, but not exactly what I'm looking for.

Try highlighting some text in a G+ comment and pressing ctrl-x. What are people thinking??
 
I like to see change in everything. It shows the liveliness of projects. Having said that it also should give opportunity to customize as users need otherwise it will be no differ from M$ in political manner. :-)
 
Change the world before change youself. Trust you,Linus.You are the god of people in my heart
 
Genome 2 was excelent, please teach them how the pepole need a Desktop, if they want a table interface the could make GnomeTable and don't toch a good traditional interface
 
I think good idea and all the way to correct errors on your desktop
 
I like Gnome 3, this is a simple, easy to use, "not full of crap", modular desktop environment. I like the modular approach. creating a simple and neat desktop with great extension capabilities (Gnome doesn't have yet) as a empty desk is far better than creating a full desktop with everything already pined, http://extensions.gnome.org is a big step toward extension capable DE.
You're right about gnome tweak tool is being ugly program, but i think it is ugly because it is a temporary substitute for customization tools that are not created yet.
 
I'll have to test what you are talking about: I still carry the black armband for the disappearance of gnome 2, I believe that unity is even better the gnome-shell at the time. Right now I can not afford anything heavier than fluxbox
since I still have problems with ati proprietary drivers on this mobile card and its damn switch!
 
Gnome 3 is in my opinion the first step to build up a recognizable Linux user interface, and it is not terrible at all, it's just different since it's focusing of what you are doing and not other stuff. We should think a Linux for everyone, and we have a lot to do in that way, interoperability between Linux distros firstly.
Tim R.
 
Gnome3 is still not very usable for me. It made me try out some tiling window manager like i3 and awesome. (-:
 
+Tim R. Awesome is awesome.
 
any environment will be good if you configure it and out of the box dwarf is not very easy to use, and sometimes crash.
My choice is a LXDE+Openbox.
 
We should give to every user from start an environment which is good already out of the box, not everyone would pass time over time to customize the DE. If we wants to spread Linux goodness, we should start thinking in that way.
 
Just at that time and again that the gnome 3 is not very good out of the box! Something that is not usual it no problem, the problem is that it is not practical.
And the popularity of Linux will come by itself, and I think we have more to worry about the friendliness of end-user and not a unique custom user interface.
 
I found it pratical in many ways, dont think that customizable means pratical or friendly. Gnome 3 works for me and for many others. And you have to consider that is still evolving.
 
Practicality can be found in many things, besides, I do not impose anyone my "religion", DE is the same choice as, for example, clothing. Just personally, I do not like these changes, but I'm very happy for the fact that people like Shuttleworth actively developing a new environment for its OS.
Gnome 3 has the future, but will need to do a lot more work
 
Trinity KDE 3.5 is worth a shot
 
linux is in need of a new User interface something completely different simple and accurate to the current computer usage....
If i had time i would embrace that challenge
 
Ok. How many of us use SHell more then GUI's?
It is perfectly compensates for all shortcomings of this)
When you are programmer, you need nano or vi and compiler. All It does not require a gui=)
 
Substitute Arch & add synapse to it & I'm a happy computer user.
 
If window managers keep going bad like this, I am going to have to go back to xmonad.
 
I think I'll go with not politically acceptable, it's against their campaign of 'look, we know what's best for you and that is a mobile/tablet-like interface for your huge not-mobile/tablet-widescreen, trust us, we know better :)'
 
I too also hope the next upcoming GNOME release will improve, especially on the customization area, improvement to Nautilus, possibly UI need working, and everything else will then follow...
 
I changed to lxde. the new gnome is horrible and not configurable.
 
Thanks for posting this! It sure makes Gnome 3 more usable.
 
Also, if you upgrade older ubuntu, icons from desktop will save, and you will not can delete it, because desktop adrass will not supported(
 
With gnome-shell extensions website being live, we also agree with you
 
Still waiting for someone to fix my video driver so I can actually use gnome 3 for the first time
 
So glad you're willing to speak out on this & be critical as needed. I just switched from XFCE to LXDE, but no DE really stands out as an attractive product for all. Gnome 2 + Avant Window Navigator was nice.
 
I agree absolutely. Somehow, the Gnome developers think that advanced options will just confuse users(!) If they're disabled by default, so the user must enable them manually, how can that be confusing in any way? It's a mystery ...
 
Man. your whining about gnome 3 is uncalled for. Don't like it? Don't use it.
 
I have to agree with Linus on the desktop shell options as of late, a lot seems to be very counterintuitive. Why I'm still using GNOME 2.0 at this point lol.
 
Now if we can only get the compiz project integrated into gnome shell it might even look OK.. sigh
 
+Jimmy Timmermans - If you'd known +Linus Torvalds at all, you'd known that he has also critizized Gnome 2 for the same weakness. I, for one, am glad Linus is voicing his opinions, because his voice is heard in the Gnome community. He speaks for those of us who's voice is ignored because we're nobody.

Besides, one of the pillars of Open Source is collaboration thru Internet contribution. It's how we get user developed programs. Who does that? Everybody. If nobody contributed to Gnome, it would die. Opinions are input also. So voicing your opinion about Gnome, or any other Open Source project, is the right thing to do. It's the only right thing to do.

If we do as you say, the Gnome people would never know if we're satisfied or not with the details in Gnome. You say "Don't like it? Don't use it." That's pretty lame. Most Gnome users like Gnome as a whole, but critizize some parts they don't like. If I were to switch to KDE I'd dislike even more. Same for the others. I like Gnome best. No other alternative is better, for me. But I don't like everything in it.
 
I for one like the flexibility the tweak tools are bringing into the gnome shell. however, at least for now, the execution is kind of rough and a bit jury rigged. Even in the better implementation of it (Mint 12) it's still looking a bit rough. I do like the flexibility though, something gnome shell should have had from the beginning.
 
+Linus Torval you've probably heard of it but check out MATE it's a fork of Gnome 2.
 
+Linus Torvalds well when it actually is usable. Let me know so I can escape this "Unity" crap. Currently considering Xfce. :)
 
+Gabriele Boccone Maybe you can try LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition). It is based on Debian testing, a rolling distribution. Which means, you can just update to get all the latest goodness. No need to reinstall. It is orders of magnitude more stable than Ubuntu (I had been an ubuntu user for half a decade). It is a good option for power users.
 
Tiling window manager, cold dead hands, etc. etc.
 
gnome3 are so fantastic.I don't know how to use it.
 
I'm thrilled that I can comment on Linus Torvalds' post. :)
 
I really appreciate the negative feedback Linus gives us on Gnome 3. And what I appreciate more is how Gnome 3 is evolving. Obviously step 1 was get it out of the door and get pitchforks and torches. Step 2 is listen to the mob and create ways to appease. However we love step 2, but step 1 was needed. kudos to gnome team. they has balls of steel (including the women).
 
for some reason I am ok to all of those UIs, all I need are: a browser, and a terminal, about 95% of the time.
 
+Bjørn T. Jønsson we listen to everyone.. look at our gnome-shell-list@gnome.org mailing list and you'll see that plenty of people have complained about various things and we've taken them as serious as we can even though they are repeat complaints. You don't need a Linus Torvalds to speak for you.

GNOME is on an evolutionary track, and you'll simply have to wait until it evolves to help advanced terminal users ( read people who use vi/emacs with terminals and gcc) and make it better. Or even better, take up the challenge write extensions that will help make things easier. There are plenty of example code out there and you can always go into irc.gnome.org #gnome-shell and ask questions, we are always available.

The default design is for everyone, and extensions are there to extend the experience to people who fall outside the general use cases or to try out new design ideas to help make the desktop better.
 
the Super+w shortcut makes, all the windows share the same size and shape, no icons no big letters, font size of window name gets very small and hard to distinguish. Unity / KDE are better UX than this.
 
Though I love KDE4, I just don't use a lot of it's most interesting features (activities, widgets, etc) so it's a little heavy for my needs. I wanted to love GNOME3, but after the initial "Ooh, shiny!" reaction, I found it too clunky, extensions or no, and there's way too much wasted space. LXDE is OK, but if I wanted to use something that light-weight, I'd run Openbox on its own, and it feels too slap-dash to act as a replacement for my integrated Desktop needs. I would use MATE, I've tried it on Arch and Mint, and I think it could be great. The problem is that I've moved to XFCE and I'm loving it - it's not quite as light as LXDE, but it feels like a full and convenient desktop.

Actually, I'm really struggling to find anything I could do on my old GNOME 2.32 desktop that I can't do on XFCE 4.8 desktop. I can only think of three things:
1) it's a little harder to get Compiz running (though I don't use it anyway - and it's still easier than on MATE),
2) getting Qt apps integrated is a little more time-consuming (but installing gconf sorted that out),
3) using GNOME panel applets takes a little tweaking (but there are none I've not either got running or for which I've not found a replacement).

Can someone tell me what they miss from GNOME on XFCE?
 
I actually using KDE 4, since I discover that KDE run smooth witch SVGA X-Window driver and Gnome 2 not. Plus KDE it's more easy to do a lot of tweaks in the gui... actually I have a GUI that are half-way between MacOS and Unity.
But I remember a time when KDE and Gnome was young. They not eat too RAM and had the same basic functionality . What happend ? Why now we need 2G of RAM instead of 32M to run only a Desktop ?
 
gnome 3.2 makes me headache.....where is my desktop
Tony G
 
I have a background as a "medium long"-time user of both Linux and Mac OS X, and believe it or not - much prefer the Unity WM approach. Why? Because I'm too accustomed to how the OS X Dock works. I myself am not a fan of the GNOME classic menu. It works, but if you have a LOT of installed applications - which is common these days - you get too long lists to scroll through in order to get to where your applications are. On the other hand, the old habit of knowing where to look for your applications is strong for many people, meaning that they feel lost in a Linux system where things are set up different.

Somehow I think everyone is right in this matter: Unity is great, Gnome Shell is great, the classic GNOME look is great, in their own way. How about if this ordeal is about old stubborn habits and not about which approach is THE right or wrong way to do it? ;)
 
I have Openbox tint2 avant window navigator and terminator shell emulator
 
Gnome 3 is not a mature environment, but has a great potencial. I use it in Fedora 16 and I'm happy, it's simple and functional, but still needs to mature a lot, especially at the level of concepts. We have to wait one year to can see Gnome 3 as a true production environment.
 
I like Gnome 3. I think it's a matter of time, but after a while I love it. Yes, it miss something, but I can survive. I try the new Ubuntu with the new interface for 5 month but I was disappointed. So I came back to Fedora (I'm an old Fedora user, but I wanted to try something new or different - Ubuntu) and for me Gnome 3 is better. But for my 1 GB netbook my choice was LXDE.
 
to +Linus Torvalds:
I'm using GNOME 2 and Fedora 14. I have local repositories on my USB-HDD, and I do not care for their GNOME 3. With the local repositories I can use 14th for a long time :D
http://ompldr.org/vYm0wdw/%D0%A1%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BA-93.png

But i have Fedora 16 as my second OS(If we do not touch Windows XP, installed for my favorite game, "Freelancer" :) ), for experiments on GNOME 3. But after I installed it, I've not never picked it in the GRUB menu to boot... I think they released GNOME 3 as ended product too early, it need's a lot of corrections and a lot of work, to be fully usable for humans :)

Recently, I tested for usability a new version of Windows(8) from Microsoft, and a new interface Metro. It looks good, but works slow on my old(is Atom N270 so old?) netbook. And very strange feelings was when i tryed to launch apps from metro. NO ONE LAUNCHED. I can launch IE only when i clicked "desktop", and select IE from windows 7 superbar. No one metro apps was launched on my netbook, how many i was clicked on it's tile's. And the subway is of questionable usability with a simple mouse, not touch screen. Well I had a backup of my XP.

In recent years the world was simply covered by these Unity, GNOME 3, and Metro. Even the Mac OS is not far behind (if you look at what they did in the Lion). And this is the last time, I do not understand where the world is heading? It was all so well. And suddenly, from nowhere come "gnomeshell's".
The worst thing is that I do not know from where it come. From Apple? From gnome developers? Only god know's
 
+Ali Janah Thanks for a good laugh, i really enjoyed it, lol. I didn't underestimate you, i didn't estimate you at all, i really couldn't care less who you are or what you do or who you know for that matter, i'm just commenting on the request you have made of Linus above. I will restate the point i was trying to make (had you read between the lines), do something actually useful, stop annoying people who are.
I shall not break the first commandment of the internets ("Thou shall not feeld the trolls"); i have removed the extensive reply that i had written.
 
i agree - at first i hated it, then with gnome-tweak-tool and at least 3 extensions its almost usable. :-)

i've not seen an extension yet that isn't just setting a preference in gconf/gsettings, they don't seem to add any functionality, so why not just replace the popular extensions like no-accessibility, shutdown-menu and tweak-tool with a few radio icons in system settings?
 
Stupid question but why you use XFCE and not KDE? KDE4.0 - 4.4 were crap, but now its really useable and stable :)
 
+Linus Torvalds gnome-tweak-tool is intended to be similar in appearance but clearly separate to system settings. Maybe it is ugly, maybe not - I'm biased. I wrote gnome-tweak-tool (and helped develop the theme standard) as a buffer; to help advanced users customize GNOME3 because I would rather people tweak GNOME3 than abandon it.

I feel I am walking a fine line. I think the GNOME3 vision is admirable, and very usable for many many people. I can understand why the inclusion of tweak-tool in system settings might let people fracture this vision - and because GNOME3 is a whole entity and not an amalgam of parts, it might lessen the experience. I am not entirely sure that I agree with this GNOME position, but I respect it - so gnome-tweak-tool will continue to be developed as a separate program.

Anyway, thanks for the mention.

John (gnome-tweak-tool author)
 
+John Stowers When it comes to theme customization GNOME 2 looks lot more easier than GNOME 3. Then logging off before turning off the machine seems sometimes OR pressing some other button in order to see that option. So besides tweaking there is also a great need of some shell extensions which makes this cool thing more exciting..

+Suchith Javagal Full-time GNOME3 user (not technically sound)
 
Linus, just being curious, and I hope this haven't been asked yet: What do you think on the recent Gnome 2 fork of Mate? I saw, that it has been mentioned a few times; I really happy to see, that there are improvements happening around Gnome 3, but I doubt it would make users happy to be forced to spend hours to tweak their Gnome 3 where they want to be productive and just use it.
It's nice having Gnome 3 around, but for using Gnome 3 (and staying productive) you will need gnome-tweak-tool, Gnome extension, be lucky to find your plugins for your currently used Gnome 3, then grumble around finding out that the functionality you look for is only available in a plugin, but that haven't been updated for weeks, and a new Gnome 3 is out, and so on... This will start feel like Firefox a bit.
So I can't barely await seeing Mate working...
 
the dock extensions is nice, but for daily use you also should install tint2
 
I totally agree with Linus that if they want to provide that 'user experience' and 'clean experience' etc., they should put it there by default but make it easy to change these. I really do like part of the concept behind gnome 3 and am now getting very excited by their new app designs for things like web browser, file manager etc. It's just some of the small things that ned to be taken care of better such as providing easily accessible choice.
 
Latest version of Gnome 2 plus Docky...what else! I'll wait long long time to change into gnome3!
 
Amen Linus, I am in total agreement with you on this one.
 
I totally agree.
I actually like using Gnome 3 but only after a number of extensions are installed :)
 
I'm wondering... what happen with the easy way to make a launcher :(
 
Linux Mint and mate .... And im happy again ... Almost ;)
 
All those pre Christmas mega bucks buying PCs to save the economy, due to a GNOME3 upgrade. Those developers must like us so much, and have an exaggerated sense of the deep pockets that come with selling open source.
 
Hmm...so 3.2 is still hardmasked in Gentoo. I am getting along well in Xfce and now have it customized the way I want it. But, this post makes me want to emerge gnome-shell and, no doubt, make my system command line only for the next week!
 
I think the GNOME 3 it is a good desktop environment but they must divide in 2 projects, one thinking in touch screens like gnome-shell and another more classic (with a new face) and usable for any user.
 
Mr. Torvalds Hi, my name is Matthew Romano and I am a university student (Catania-Sicily-Italy), I wanted to ask, is able to give me material to study the Linux kernel in version 3, since there is little material on the net and only on the 2.6 kernel . Then I wanted to ask what do you think the desktop environment is LXDE (Lightweight fast and compatible with compiz). Finally I wanted to let you know that here in Sicily-Italy, want to close a school where linux is the center of the educational world, are assembled computers with linux, linux is studied, modified linux in a nutshell a wonderful school and one of its main exponents is Cantaro Antonio. The site of the school is and discussion is here http://www.istitutomajorana.it/ http://www.istitutomajorana.it/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1593&Itemid=33. I hope he can help with his reputation not to close this school.
 
I abandoned unity early on, through unrelated graphics driver issues (11.04 and nvidia cards - an uncomfortable mixture!) And crossed over to Fedora, and, as a result Gnome 3.1. My initial reaction was less than favourable - I spend all day using this thing so it has to be as quick and intuitive as possible. By the second month, and a bit of fiddling with gnome-tweak I was far happier. Now I find anything else restrictive and cumbersome...
luu hoo
 
I didn't resist gnome-shell or unity but extremely hope them become more usable. I think i will soon get back to gnome3 or unity. IMHO,the nautilus3 looks a bit ugly compared with other components of gnome 3 such as dash,launcher,dock,panel,etc.The file manager UI is somewhat inharmonious with others and old-fashioned. It just like a xp style file manager appears in windows7.
 
Is it 3.2 already? I remember 2.0, that's about when I lost my faith in the project and went on (I admit somewhat unstable) awesome.naquadah.
 
I think what people are constantly forgetting is the simple fact that the Gnome 3 developers did not give its users a choice. As a windows user I have moved away from windows to Linux because I want the choice to do something different, and also the choice to do it in the way I feel most comfortable. Gnome 3 has forgotten that ideology. I am all for progress, but at what cost? Why should something be forced down our (the Linux Community) throat? Because it is progressive? Please. That is a windows mentality. Why should I have to install "extensions" in order to put functionality back into an OS when that functionality was originally in the OS to begin with? Xfce is awesome, and for a Linux novice, with a lot of work, I was able to make it look like Gnome 2, and I'm comfortable with that. The bottom line is: I have the CHOICE to do it with Xfce. As Mr. Torvalds said, I think that Gnome 2 should have been forked and kept current whilst work was done on Gnome 3. For me as a windows user for all my life, Linux has always been about the freedom of choice, and with Gnome 3...I feel that, that freedom, has been taken away from me.
 
i like the way the mint team has been implementing their "mgse" and minus the menu and bottom panel add ons i'd use it as a basic template for gnome 3.3
 
I love vanilla Gnome Shell. I am the 1%.
But then we all know that that 'market' share means everything right?
 
Took me a good 3 weeks to adjust to Gnome 3, but now every time I'm in another DE (Win any, Mac, KDE, etc.) I find myself pushing my mouse to the top left corner and being disappointed when the overview doesn't pop up. That feature has me hooked. Is Gnome 3 hard to customize? Yes. Is it worth it to me? Yes.
Makoy M
 
took me a while to get used to Gnome Shell and it's hard at first. it was worth it, especially with the gnome shell extensions coming in. but hey i also use XFCE. :)
 
Spent a few hours customizing Gnome3 to beat any sort of usability and productivity out of it. I ended up flipping off my screen (literally) and uninstalling it completely. Now I'm sitting here with LXDE and unhappy. I went to the Gnome3 webpage thinking I was either missing the point or using it wrong, only to find out every statement used to sell Gnome3 was a punchline.
 
First of all, acknowledge that Gnome 3 is still not really ready - just good enough to work for everyday use.

I think the Gnome developers are well aware of most people's qualms. The main issue is configuration. The current design language follows that there would be an easy and simple way to configure everything - but there isn't. I think the reason is very simple: the developers are focusing mainly on getting features implemented, not an easy way for users to configure the details.

I personally found the default config to be almost exactly what I wanted - right out of the box. I realize this is not the case for most users. I did make some minor changes to the keyboard settings and default applications, and used Gnome Tweak Tool to change the window theme, and that's it.
 
there is a new project, Cinnamon, and I think it's pretty cool, a kind of gnome 2 based on gnome 3... but I'm getting used to awesome wm, and I don't know now why to switch....
 
I'm using LXDE myself; I agree with what Linus said about it being a downgrade to GNOME 2 and an upgrade to the #$%^ GNOME 3.
 
Cinnamon is the fork of Gnome-Shell, not Gnome2.xx.
 
+Martin Stibor Cinnamon is a gnome-shell fork and is trying to imitate old 2.x GNOME look (and sometimes feel, where acceptable)
 
I think my hardware isn't compatible with the new GNOME or something; KDE, LXDE, Openbox and GNOME Classic work well though. (In LMDE)
 
Another thing I'd recommend, Linus, is binding the Super key to one's scrollwheel, so that when one clicks on it, the Activities Overview is opened. I've also installed GNOME Pie and bound it to an unused button on my mouse, so it's REALLY easy to launch my favourite applications. Do check it out! I like GNOME Shell a lot, and I do think they're going the right direction. They just need to make some usability improvements....
 
Since when does Gnome add configuration options? I thought they only got removed? :o
 
Cute +Robin Jacobs, but it's kind of hard to remove something that wasn't added in the first place, isn't it?
 
Third coming (after Linux and git) of st. Linus should be a proper DE.
 
I tried GNOME 3 for awhile and could for the life of me figure out the rationale behind it. You should know, however, that I am a KISS guy, and I prefer to stick to efficiency and functionality. So, what the hell were they thinking?
Ed Felt
 
Loving xfce 4.8. Tiny footprint, and very fast. I don't care if it's not as pretty as Gnome or KDE. It was taking forever to boot my laptop until I switched to xfce (on Fedora 15).
 
I really like clean system tray of ubuntu, but did like menu bar integration as long as unity launcher on left side by default. but I find gnome 3 faster than unity on my thinkpad r61.
 
The problem with Linux desktop from all the varieties except LXDE is that they all follow Apple and Microsofts design decisions which happen to be the wrong decisions! Yep, Apple and MSFT got it wrong!

Apple is not a brilliant UI designer, they make some pretty clunky - and archaic looking - designs that have way too much flash and actually burden the machine and bog it down making things too complicated. When I use Mac OS X I end up just using the Terminal anyways and use the UI very little. I usually only need a few applications and don't use the rest of the included ones. I am beginning to hate the fact that I cannot customize anything and the gelled candy looks are totally 1990's.

When I use Windows I use the UI alot but only around 10% of it, most of my time is spent in applications. The only version of Windows I like using is XP because 7 is too flashy and the opaque windows and transparencies end up turning me off after a while. They also make the machine very slow.

Point, LXDE is the only UI I actually respect because it's so minimal it doesn't get in the way of the applications nor bog down the machine. The ideal UI is one that barely exists. Everything should be built to offer quick access to applications and then focus everything on those programs, not bog the user down in a complex and too flashy UI.

The problem is that the desktop manager developers are following the "leaders" that is the bumbling folks at Apple and MSFT who think that making everything into a video game and a flashy 1990's bloated UI is the way forward. This approach cannot be more incompatible with the entire purpose of Linux as a high performance OS...
 
I miss the GNOME-2 UI! I tried fallback mode, but it just isn't cutting it for me. I forget why, I think it was a problem using Compiz. Where's a stable version of Compiz when you need it? (I know where the last stable version is, I just want a new stable version.)
 
I miss Gnome 2.  Best thing I've found is Cinnamon for Linux Mint 13, but no computer I have is capable of running it, Gnome 3, or Unity with any amount of efficiency.  It's absolutely apolling that the main selling point for Linux was it's light-weight kernel and ability to run on the oldest machines.  Now, it takes a state of the art machine to run the latest desktops (if it's not xfce or lde).

Now I'm forced to save up 1,000 dollars just to buy a computer that will run the desktop I want.
 
I'm happy with the current KDE (4.8.3). The thing I like about KDE is that it's pleasant to use (yes, I agree with the KDE guys when they say 'beauty is a feature') it lets me do things how I want. I can get on with life without being forced into a game of Twister to get things done (I'm looking at you Gnome developers). And the things that you don't want aren't forced on you either.
 
Such a shame that Linus Torvalds himself dislikes my favorite desktop environment :P I love Gnome 3, but than again I'm one for simplicity and efficiency and in my opinion Gnome 3 delivers that :)
Leo C
 
Change is hard especially if you did not initiate it. I feel Gnome 3 is Linux breaking away from trying to be a better Windows. All I am saying is Gnome 2 and Cinnamon look a lot more like Windows 7 than Gnome 3. Just like Mac OSX Gnome 3 is a relatively unique experience. It is unadulterated by 'status quo' cognitive bias and deserves support as a great idea even if not to your taste. Linux creates the opportunity for a bunch of experiences for a bunch of people. Gnome 3 is just another experience. In my view it is not a question of right or wrong.
 
I installed the dash to dock extension and then the Axe Menu extension. Very happy with my gnome shell environment now.
 
Most of you don't know that the interface you miss from Gnome 2 is still there. Just enable Classic (Fallback) mode and you will have the Gnome 2 interface back, but with improved GTK 3 features. My desktop is exactly like it was in Gnome 2, but better. I also use Compiz with it.
 
Gnome 3 ist the best desktop i ever seen it's beautiful and intuitive
 
Pretty old post, but I have to comment it. This desktop manager is actually quite revolutionary in my view. However, despite the various criticisms, I do not see myself going back to the traditional "Windows 95/98 like" desktop. Gnome Shell is simply amazing.
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