Materialism has ceded to Idealism of late as our tool to root out the basic truth: we have come from the 19th century atomised reading of the runes of Thermodynamic phenomena (in the spirit of Democritus) to the 21st century program of applying Plato's Ideal (mathematical) forms to express those "tendencies" of material fundamental objects to decay and interact with each other as they do.
The indivisibility requirement of the fundamental atom precludes elementals from having spatial properties: being observable renders absurd the substantial elementariness of the electron in full view. Platonic (Idealistic-solid) forms rather characterise tendencies of the elements and their aggregates. Today's mathematical idealisations : the second quantised gauge, the string-membrane, knot, loop or twistor field are conceived in the spirit of Plato not of Democritus.
"[While Plato's symmetries were a far cry from conformal causality or isospin group invariance his insight was, that nature at its most fundamental (at least) is characterised] by mathematical symmetries." Heisenberg, The Debate between Plato and Democritus.
When CERN seeks to refine the (only, presumably) apparent indivisibility we observe to date by fixating on smaller scales we are just parsing out Platonic solid models. The tried and trusted way to test the truth-value of a mathematical theorem, historically has not been through validation against sensory evidence. Rather validation came from the inward experience: the determination or otherwise of the mental coherence of a train of logical propositions. That coherence, checked by the minds of other equally trained mathematicians never actively sought correspondence to the natural world for validation.
As such do we need to expand our definition of the scientific method (beyond physical sensory evidence) to embrace the mathematical method as:
" [...that involving] those knowledge-claims open to experiential validation or refutation." Wilder, Quantum Questions.
The indivisibility requirement of the fundamental atom precludes elementals from having spatial properties: being observable renders absurd the substantial elementariness of the electron in full view. Platonic (Idealistic-solid) forms rather characterise tendencies of the elements and their aggregates. Today's mathematical idealisations : the second quantised gauge, the string-membrane, knot, loop or twistor field are conceived in the spirit of Plato not of Democritus.
"[While Plato's symmetries were a far cry from conformal causality or isospin group invariance his insight was, that nature at its most fundamental (at least) is characterised] by mathematical symmetries." Heisenberg, The Debate between Plato and Democritus.
When CERN seeks to refine the (only, presumably) apparent indivisibility we observe to date by fixating on smaller scales we are just parsing out Platonic solid models. The tried and trusted way to test the truth-value of a mathematical theorem, historically has not been through validation against sensory evidence. Rather validation came from the inward experience: the determination or otherwise of the mental coherence of a train of logical propositions. That coherence, checked by the minds of other equally trained mathematicians never actively sought correspondence to the natural world for validation.
As such do we need to expand our definition of the scientific method (beyond physical sensory evidence) to embrace the mathematical method as:
" [...that involving] those knowledge-claims open to experiential validation or refutation." Wilder, Quantum Questions.
Aren't you actually describing the rift between empiricists and rationalists though? It's not whether or not the world is made of Material. Sure it is. Idealism is no more defensible than anti-global warming or a flat earth. There is no avenue of defense for your chosen enemy. The ones whom you could punch are folks with math chops just trying to make money and earn prestige by doing what it is they know how to do. But math geeks are kind of a pitiful lot. Math is great, but those who suffer from math pathology (and idealism pathology) are just folks who, for emotional or psychological reasons, flee from the world and seek employment and respite in pure abstraction. Their purely human, psychological weakness is not enough to support a transcendent or didactic dichotomy. Empiricism is what balanced people subscribe to, and we know that by now.2w
+Richard Lucas Thankyou, yes that brings some clarity. The would-be Rational Idealists are seeking validation from the empirical scientists. It is not enough that they play in the shadow world for its own sake, they need to see their particular (platonic-solid) in sharp-relief (shadowed no-less) played out by Nature.2w
+Richard Lucas "math geeks are kind of a pitiful lot" Hmm ... I resemble that remark.
+Lee McCullochJames Coincidentally I have begun reading "SpaceTime & Electro-magnetism" by J. R. Lucas (Philosopher) and P. E. Hodgson (Physicist). Though it is too early to understand what they hope to argue for they seem to be arguing for a Philosophy of Science that is Rationalist but guided by Empiricism.
The book was the result of many years of teaching a course on the subject matter which began with many disagreements -- How better to teach Philosophy? -- until a time came when through many years of argumentation they found themselves. mostly, agreeing.
At one point they point out that each experiment amounts to asking the Universe a question -- something I agree with. I imagine that it is the purpose of Rationalism to determine which questions need to be asked and the purpose of Empiricism to provide the answer to those questions ... although I could be wrong ... I guess time will tell.2w
I wrote this comment, below, for another post, but as it is not entirely off topic I have decided to post it here also.
Mathematics is an adult version of the “what-if game” we played as children – "What if ...?” – Mathematics is not concerned with telling us how the World is but, instead, is concerned with telling us how the World might be.2w
+Bill Reed Agreed. Those playing with the mathematics of basic physics today may have previously been happy to just play mathematics as was the way of much of Gauss's work (except speed of light?) and the likes. Somewhere around the 1960s (?) though physics started to inform/lead the mathematics.
Perhaps much of the grievances (from Physicists) about "Naturalness" (symmetry-simplicity) arguments being overdone as ansatz for discovering an underpinning mathematical formalism may be targeting the research efforts of those, who in a different time, wouldn't have been all that bothered with such triflings.2w
+Lee McCullochJames Physicists are mesmerized by Mathematics -- check out Newton for an example -- and it is hard to argue that this attitude has not been successful. I recently read an Interview with Freeman Dyson in which he makes the claim that most Physicists are unrepentant Platonists -- Where else do "Laws of Nature" exist if not in Plato's Heaven? -- and Cosmologist John Barrow wrote a whole book -- Pi in the Sky -- in support of this thesis.2w
+Lee McCullochJames By the way, Gauss' early work was applied ... in Astronomy -- using least squares to calculate the orbit of Ceres so that the asteroid could be required by earthly telescopes and such.2w