“By repeatingly saying its a small number you are implying that you are at odds with anything being done about it.” +Warwick Williams
That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that there are better, more efficient ways to identify those who are in the country without an appropriate visa than conducting a random sweep of Melbourne's CBD. “Again, the per capita emissions argument was brought up as a comparison to your method. It highlights how misleading quoting stats can be …”
The statistics are not misleading. They speak for themselves. They illustrate (1) that the number of visa overstayers in Australia is not a significant problem given that they represent only 1.2% of temporary visa holders, and (2) Australia’s refusal to take serious action to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions is immoral. (See my pissing in the stream example above.) The fact that Australian emissions represent 1.5% of global emissions, a similar figure to the 1.2% of visa overstayers, is irrelevant. Global warming is a more serious problem than visa overstayers, and our relative inaction fails to meet our responsibilities as global citizens. (See my reference to Peter Singer’s point about the “global community” above.)
You seem to suggest that my opinion that refugees and asylum seekers are a significant focus of the Australian Border Force’s operations is “speculation getting even more stretched”,
because I pointed to Howard and Abbott’s relentless electioneering focus on boats and asylum seekers. Perhaps if I add to that the announcements associated with the launch of the force you will accept that this is the case, and it is not speculation, but fact.
I fail to see any irony in my comments about technology. Perhaps you could explain where it is, just as you could explain what “reverse racism”
is. (You’ve still not responded to that question.)
The fact that police are entitled to ask for identification doesn’t make it reasonable to conduct a sweep of Melbourne’s CBD in which people are asked to establish their right to be in the community. You seem to think that those conducting such a sweep would be completely impartial and choose people at random. You may be right, but given human nature, I doubt it.“Have I even said that you need to worry?”
Yes. You wrote “You think you don't need to worry... because you're white. Guess what? You're wrong …”
In my four preceding comments I tried to get you to explain what you meant by that. I asked whether I should worry about being stopped by the police or about having my job taken by a refugee, or by someone overstaying on a tourist or student visa. Perhaps you could explain now what I should be worried about, along with answering my question about “reverse racism”.“Did you honestly think for a moment the border Police with the Vic Police were going to be arresting anyone who doesn't have sufficent ID on them or targeting people who aren't white?”
No to the first part of that question, possibly to the second. Police officers may not target ethnic minorities consciously, but they might do so unconsciously. Data suggests that this happens in other places, though I’m not aware of any statistics for Australia. Perhaps Melbourne’s police are better behaved than elsewhere in the developed world.“John, this is another irony. Your whole point of this thread is to create fear and hatred for the govt based on nothing but your hatred and bias towards it.”
There’s no irony in anything I've written, and I feel no hatred for anyone. I’ve made explicit and implicit criticisms of my government’s policies on border protection and carbon emissions. That is my right as a citizen, just as it is your right to defend those policies. I am debating substantive issues with substantive arguments. Your use of labels like “left wing clap trap”
and “radical left wing agenda”
merely express your emotional response to the issues raised in this thread and add nothing to the substance of the debate. You telegraphed your attitude with your first comment in this thread claiming that it was ironic that someone with the name +hussein aboudakin
would tell Tony Abbott to go back to England. That was a good point, but you may have missed that it could be aimed equally well at you. +David Crosswell
nailed it with his response, “Not unless I was aboriginal.”
Most Australians are of immigrant stock, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but some European Australians seem to think that their European ancestry gives them the right to tell other recent arrivals to “go back to where you came from” or to make fun of people with non-European sounding names.“What is so wrong about the law being enforced? Should the Police stop enforcing the speed limit because the majority of people getting caught speeding are white people? Does that make the traffic act a racist law?”
In answer to those questions. Nothing, no and no. But that doesn’t help your case.“No logic, no proof just incitement and opinions of fringe left wing political groups like Socialist Alternative.”
Here’s the logic in my comments. I’ve pointed out that 62,000 visa overstayers is not a significant problem when it represents only 1.2% of 5.5 million temporary visa holders and, even if they were all taking a job an Australian citizen wanted, they would still only comprise 0.5% of Australia’s almost 12 million strong workforce. I’ve pointed out that the similarity in the percentage figures, 1.2% for visa overstayers and 1.5% for Australia’s contribution to global greenhouse gas emissions, is irrelevant to the moral point that Australia has an obligation to pull its weight and that greenhouse gas emissions are a more serious problem than visa overstayers. I've pointed out that there are more effective and efficient ways to identify those without visas than conducting a random sweep of Melbourne's CBD. I've pointed out that asking random people to establish their right to be in the community is reminiscent of the behaviour of police states.
That’s logic, and it has nothing to do with the Socialist Alternative. I’m not a socialist. I believe that capitalism is the best system we humans have come up with so far, despite its failings. It has helped achieve amazing improvements in the standard of living across the world in recent decades. There’s value in the free market, but it’s not perfect, and it needs to be tempered by governments whose duties include looking after all their citizens, both rich and poor, sick and healthy, employed and unemployed, immigrant and native born. In addition to this responsibility, wealthy countries like Australia also have a duty to help poorer countries whose governments are struggling with much greater problems than 62,000 visa overstayers.