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John Bartram
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John Bartram

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We need C14 dating, both absolute and relative, for multiple samples and by multiple laboratories, for Christian, Chrestian, Gnostic and Manichaean sacred texts.
This fragment is virtually unique, in being found within a secure, archaeological layer. When I credulously believed in a "Jesus Christ" appearing in the New Testament, I was most concerned in dating the early codices (and f...
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Radiocarbon dating found the manuscript to be at least 1,370 years old, making it among the earliest in existence.
These tests provide a range of dates, showing that, with a probability of more than 95%, the parchment was from between 568 and 645.
"According to Muslim tradition, the Prophet Muhammad received the revelations that form the Koran, the scripture of Islam, between the years 610 and 632, the year of his death."
Prof Thomas says the dating of the Birmingham folios would mean it was quite possible that the person who had written them would have been alive at the time of the Prophet Muhammad.

Now we have to consider what this may mean.
What could be the world's oldest fragments of the Koran have been found by the University of Birmingham.
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Yes +John Bartram , your thesis is enormous and powerful . They could not help but fear your ideas.
What you brought new to me was the idea of the creation of the Christian out an assemblage of various religions , for political gain.

They are standing on sand if they cannot present documents with references to the Christ earlier than the eighth century . It seems to be a fight they are bound to lose .
It reminds me of the various Shrouds of Turin which , no matter how carefully examined they might be , seem be immune to scientific study.
Because they have to be , else the truth with show itself.
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So no suggestions as to what happened to these many manuscripts, or if they were not destroyed, where they might be now. A pity and I will try to make this my last post here on the subject.

As I leave the topic, I will add two suggestions:
1. The many purported copies made from the 8th century and onwards include fake histories, such as all the anti-heresies, national histories for their Dark Ages (e.g. Gildas), and Church histories (e.g. Eusebius of Caesarea). Let me make this clear: Alquin & co. did not just copy, they also revised and faked.
2. There are two strong possibilities for where the manuscripts are, assuming the Church did not destroy them:
a. The monasteries where they were copied.
b. The Vatican.

I've discussed before the Abbey of St Gall and how it played an important role in making the Christian textual tradition. It's history has this episode:

In the fourteenth century Humanists were allowed to take away some of the rarest of the classical manuscripts and in the sixteenth the abbey was raided by the Calvinists, who scattered many of the most valuable books.
("Abbey of St. Gall". Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. 1913.)

If they really were taken, then where to - and where now? Does this account have historicity, or is it a cover?
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+most diggity and +John Bartram excellent leads , thank you.
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Image: my (Canadian) father aged 21 in 1935, just before sailing to his new life in England.
I remember him with great fondness. He never spoke to me harshly and as I moved through adult life, I realised how much of the wisdom he passed on to me was good and useful.
Happy Father's Day to you all.
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Lovely thoughts !
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The historical, Jewish messiah at the Qumran monastic community of observant Jews seems to me to be the single-most critical factor in the conflict which included the three Jewish-Roman Wars. The alterations to the Book of Baruch lead, I think, to the first gospel account(s).
"The Pierced Messiah Text" The War of the Messiah is a series of Dead Sea scroll fragments describing the conclusion of a battle led by the Leader of the Congregation. The fragments that make up this document include 4Q285, ...
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The more I study the materials in your Google Drive, John, the stronger appears the case that the messiah of the New Testament is derived from, but different to the Jewish messiah of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and this reworking began early, perhaps after the end of the First Jewish-Roman War.

BOOK OF BARUCH: Date of Second Part.
Kneucker, Marshall, and several other recent critics, however, place its composition after the capture of Jerusalem by Titus, holding that the "strange nation" of iv. 3 ("give not thine honor . . . to a strange nation") refers to the Christians, and relates to a time when the antagonism between Judaism and Christianity had become pronounced.

As the enemies of the Jewish messiah are Chrestian, rather than Christian, we see here the start of the gospel Chrestology.
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So much of today's conflicts in the Near and Middle East remind of Late Antiquity, with the incessant wars between the East Roman Empire and that of Iran. I have long argued that if we understood Antiquity better, we might better understand today's conflicts, but the fact is, this history is clouded and little understood.

Today, Yemen is a lead story.

Yemen campaign key test for Saudi Arabia
27 March 2015
The decision by King Salman bin Abdulaziz al-Saud to order airstrikes against Houthi rebels is the most important foreign policy decision undertaken by the House of Saud since revolutions swept across the Arab world four years ago.
_Saudi media claim the kingdom has mobilised as many as 150,000 troops to its southern border primarily for the purpose of homeland defence, but also clearly to afford the kingdom the option to stage a ground war should it so choose. _

Yemen crisis: Kerry warns Iran over Houthi rebel 'support'
Today
US Secretary of State John Kerry has warned Iran over its alleged support for Houthi rebels in Yemen.
He said the US would support any state in the Middle East that felt threatened by Iran, and would not "stand by" if Iran destabilised the region.

It is easy to see the USA in a role as 'new Romans'.

Ancient Iran had a habit of dominating this region; Alexander picked up the same, for the Greeks. Then came the Romans and one fact of their colonisation of Egypt impressed me: how thoroughly they did it. Reading the historical records for the occupation of Egypt,  it seems so settled, and yet Iran was able to take this rich land almost without effort.

In 613, outside Antioch, the Persian generals Shahrbaraz and Shahin decisively defeated a major counter-attack led in person by the Byzantine emperor Heraclius. Thereafter, the Persian advance continued unchecked. Jerusalem fell in 614, Alexandria in 619, and the rest of Egypt by 621. The Sassanid dream of restoring the Achaemenid boundaries was almost complete, while the Byzantine Empire was on the verge of collapse. This remarkable peak of expansion was paralleled by a blossoming of Persian art, music, and architecture. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian_Empire

Fall of Egypt
The Persian invasion of Egypt began either in 617 or 618, but little is known about the particulars of this campaign, since the province was practically cut off from the remaining Roman territories. The Persian army headed for Alexandria, where Nicetas, Heraclius' cousin and local governor, was unable to offer effective resistance. He and the Chalcedonian patriarch, John V, fled the city to Cyprus. According to the Khuzistan Chronicle, Alexandria was then betrayed to the Persians by a certain Peter in June 619.

After the fall of Alexandria, the Persians gradually extended their rule southwards along the Nile. Sporadic resistance required some mopping-up operations, but by 621, the province was securely in Persian hands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian_conquest_of_Egypt

This was largely a literate world, the empire kept very extensive records and so did Egyptians in the daily lives. And yet we know almost nothing of this.

Here is an authoritative view:
All too little is known about the east Roman aristocracy in late antiquity
It is important always to be wary of the various ways in which approved, published accounts of events may diverge from historical reality, whether by means of suppression of unpalatable facts, enhancement of the positive, distortion, fabrication etc.
...If an answer can be suggested, it will lead to an understanding of the origins of Islam.
There are other, more modest historical prizes in prospect...
Title: East Rome, Sasanian Persia and the End of Antiquity: Historiographical and Historical Studies
Author: J. D. Howard-Johnston
Publisher| Ashgate Publishing, Ltd., 2006 

Many would have thought 'we' knew the origins of Islam; not me. We don't know even the origins of Christianity. What people think they know, yet don't, is vast and meanwhile, old wars are being refought with little, or no consideration of the past.

#history #Iran #Egypt #Arabia #Yemen
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+Ergun Çoruh Thank you for both your input, which I value, and your kind words. I have followed your posts for quite a while and always find them informative and humanitarian, which I enjoy. (And yes, blocking trolls is sometimes needed. I am often asked: am I Jewish? - and this question is never meant well. In G+, a poster should mean well, or be reported/blocked.)

I followed the news for Sana'a manuscript as closely as I could, from the time of its discovery. Somehow I lost track for a time, so am delighted to learn how the analysis has got somewhere useful.

It seems the C14 dating is regarded as definitive; maybe, though it has a habit of confirming the view of the person paying for it.  A chronology:

> Muhammad spent his last ten years, from 622 to 632, as the leader of Medina in a state of war with pagan Mecca.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_Muhammad

> The Byzantine-Arab wars begin in 634.
> The conquest of Syria, 637
> The conquest of Armenia, 639
> The conquest of Egypt, 639
> The manuscript: 75% probability from before 646

The suggestion that Islam came after the conquest of Jerusalem is still a possibility, through the window of opportunity is small.

At least the manuscript takes us further back and that is a useful achievement.

The script:

Hijazi script, also Hejazi; Arabic: خط حجازي‎ ḫaṭṭ ḥiǧāzī, literally "Hejazi writing", is the collective name for a number of early Arabic scripts that developed in the Hejaz region of the Arabian peninsula, which includes the cities of Mecca and Medina. As the name suggests, it is associated with the Hejaz region of Arabia. This type of script was already in use at the time of the emergence of Islam. It was one of the earliest scripts, along with Mashq and Kufic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijazi_script

I am not sure that script = language. After the discovery, there was a claim the language is Syriac. I don't know if this question is answered.

Changes:

The lower text of the Sana'a palimpsest frequently differs from the standard text of the Qur'an, although only "a small fraction of the variants do make a difference in meaning." [Sadeghi & Goudarzi 2012, p. 19.]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscript#Variants

The Sana'a Qur’an shows only a few fragments and has many important differences compared with the modern Qur’an.
http://goo.gl/kaJegU
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John Bartram

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A study shows how experts don't know nearly as much about this as they claim.

#history   #papyri   #gospels   #scholarship
P. Chester Beatty I, (P45) folio 13-14, containing portion of the Gospel of Luke For all the years, decades - centuries in some cases - scholars have studied manuscripts claimed as 'early-Christian', they have managed to lear...
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The manuscripts of Classical Antiquity were collected and copied by Alquin and succeeding generations of monks. Where are the originals - the manuscripts that were supposedly copied - now?
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* Great steaming gorillas.. I may have the next best seller on my hands that will outpace the Da Vinci code comedy.....must start writing..wish I had studied more.....
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More on the messiah(s) at Qumran in the early-first century.
This unprovenanced, limestone tablet was likely found near the Dead Sea some time around the year 2000 and has been associated with the same community which created the Dead Sea scrolls. Israel Knohl, an expert in Talmudic an...
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Help wanted and deserved.
 
Now with the added incentive of two free ebooks. :) All donors to the cause of the just... well, me being able to have a working computer, will get a free copy of my current ebook, Hinterland, as well as copy of my second collection, Sing Along With the Sad Song, which is due out this autumn.  
My name is A (W) Hendry and I'm just starting out in my writing career. I have had a couple of stories accepted for publication and have put out a wee ebook collection on Amazon Kindle. Unfortunately the ancient clockwork computer I was using has finally given up the ghost -it is an ex computer,...
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Rafique Jairazbhoy - whom I was fortunate to call a friend in the late 1960s - tried to convince me of such archaeology (for Oriental, pre-Columban contact) ; I kept an open mind. But I think that this field is slowly coming to agree with him.

Ancient Egyptians and Chinese in America
(Old World origins of American civilisation) 29 Apr 1974
by R.A. Jairazbhoy (Author)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ancient-Egyptians-Chinese-American-civilisation/dp/090400001X/ref=sr_1_2/277-7790769-9895938?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1429198764&sr=1-2

Resources for R. A. Jairazbhoy
http://trove.nla.gov.au/people/1280133?c=people

#archaeology #history #Americas #Alaska
Bronze artifacts discovered in a 1,000-year-old house at the Rising Whale site suggest trade was occurring between East Asia and the New World centuries before the voyages of Christopher Columbus.
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Yes, of course +John Bartram . I got distracted by words like Thule and Inuit, and pictured a system of trade through the north between hunting groups and tribes, not necessarily needing large or complex shipping methods.
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A major publisher has asked me to submit a proposal for the evidence-based history which I've been studying and posting about here. (And thank you for all your positive comments.) Despite my inhibitions in this area, I've agreed; wish me bonne chance.

[Below: mosaic of Isis and Serapis, Roman early 3rd century]
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Bonne Chance indeed! I'm really looking forward to it - and yes, what +Gnotic Pasta said! Thank you!
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Studying cultural layers
Introduction
Shovelbum
Lived and worked across the world, including western Europe and various Mediterranean islands, West Africa, the Far East and Polynesia. Best for history and archaeology: Malta.
Been on television many times as both presenter and interviewee.
Started archaeology in Cambridge, late 60s, and now entering retirement in my 60s. I enjoyed getting my hands dirty.
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geophysical surveying, archaeological excavation, writing
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