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Yes, you know computers are just a passing fad, but SEC football is forever
Can't read it. I'm busy beating my head against the wall.
Just gave me a reason to root for the 'Noles.
Guess they don't want any government STEM money
Kun Li
This title is so misleading. All the hatred towards Athletic Department because of the financial crisis in academic department is just nonsense

Indirect benefits of a strong and healthy athletic program includes gameday revenues enjoyed by state and local businesses that provide food, lodging and other products and services on gameday. College athletics generate jobs and produce tax revenues to the state. It does not take tax revenues away.

A winning team brings in more college applications and more generous donations by enthusiastic fans and alumni. The people who donate to the athletic department are also prone to donate to academic programs as well.
Yes, clearly football teams are super important to the academic mission of colleges. Hence the reason why Harvard, MIT, Yale and countless other schools spend hundreds of millions of dollars to have top tier football teams.


I'm not at all opposed to college athletics but when the funding in academics is being reduced while at the same time funding for athletics is increasing it's a pretty messed up situation.
Kun Li
Oh yeah? Can you specify why it's a pretty messed up situation? And you do understand the essential difference between IVY college and UF do you?

It would be helpful to the discussion if you can:

1 Tell us how many top 50 public university don't have or want to have a strong athletic team?

2 What's the nation's best public land grant university without a football team? I don't know the answer, and I'm having trouble coming up with a list of dedent candidates?
+Deon Garrett +Kun Li: Quite obviously, college sports is a big deal in the U.S. - TV, merchandising, etc.; nevertheless: that's not what universities are meant for!
Kun Li
Yeah sure, I'm not arguing over that.

What I'm saying is AD is usually self-funded in US, and football funds almost all the sports on campus. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to blame football or AD funding
To answer question 1, there's a short list but you're correct most public universities think they need a strong athletic program. Whether or not they do is the question.

As for question 2, off the top of my head, UC Berkley
Kun Li
+Jacob Pulliam wait a moment, are you sure Berkley doesn't have a football team???????? Apparently you know very little about college sports.
Sorry I misread your question as top football teams.
But since I know so little, please enlighten me on the football team's contribution to research and education.
Kun Li
Cal is not a elite team right now but they are still pretty competitive team and was a top 25 or so team occasionally. They even have 5 national titles and 14 conference titles. You picked a really bad example
"A winning team brings in more college applications and more generous donations by enthusiastic fans and alumni. The people who donate to the athletic department are also prone to donate to academic programs as well."

Where is the evidence of this? If this is the case why don't ivy league or schools outside of the U.S. have huge sports programs? Donations to the sports programs may increase but there still aren't very many self sufficient programs in the country (less than 20) as of 2006, at least according to Daniel Fulks. So if the programs aren't making money, the math is pretty easy to figure out.
I was once asked what was the highest salary in a known US university. Since I knew this university had a professor in the Computer Science Department who was a Turing Award, I mentioned his name. Of course I was plain wrong. The highest salaries were by far those related to the athletic program. I understand all the arguments, but somewhere this tells a lot about the priorities of universities.
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Florida is a leader by outsourcing its CS department
Kun Li
+Jean Bezivin You clearly still don't understand the funding situation for AD. Football coach's salary is from AD itself, not from University. If your football program is so popular that you get huge amount of money from TV or tickets sell or whatever, AD has every single right to determine what the salary of coach should be.

Or, simply speaking, a successful football program supports all other sports in campus, in addition, bring school many indirect financial benefits. There are several studies about this and here is one example
I'm glad you're finally starting to see my point +Kun Li. From the article you liinked:

""We have not approached this thinking that we'll mine large amounts of money," said Dubois. "We did our research and we know what football costs, and we know that it will have to be subsidized with student dollars and private support and ticket sales, "

Again, the deal with Ivy league isn't to say they don't have sports, it's that they don't value sports ahead of academics. Hence why there are no scholarships for athletics.
+Kun Li “A winning team brings in more college applications and more generous donations…” Perhaps, but the pursuit of a winner is a zero-sum game, is it not? It will never be possible for every college to have a winning team, so competition can drive that investment to outrageous levels without making education better on the whole.
Kun Li
Is University of Florida choosing football over science?

This is what Jean is questioning here, and what I want to clarify is that, this is clearly a misleading question and UF Football team has nothing to do with such a sad situation UF is in.

I don't put sports ahead of academics. Universities don't either. University is a place to educate people, not train people to be Olympic champions. I completely agree with that.

My point is, sports, especially football program which supports nearly all other sports in a university, shouldn't be involved in the discussion in the very beginning. Coach's salary is determined by how much money his team generates, instead of how much money the academic department is in short of. It's just simple like that
+Kun Li I read the link you posted and I'm not entirely convinced it conveys the message you were intending. In fact they specifically state on more than one occasion that "Whether or not the expenditures required to receive these indirect benefits promote efficiency in education is certainly not determined in the present analysis". Oh and it's kind of a pain to have to dig through 45 pages of your "evidence" to find out that it has nothing to do with your argument.
"Coach's salary is determined by how much money his team generates, instead of how much money the academic department is in short of. It's just simple like that"

That statement is patently untrue. As I pointed out to you there are only a handful of profitable athletic programs in the country. If most programs are losing money (or rather, being subsidized by student tuition) how are coach's making anything at all?
Kun Li
+Jacob Pulliam You are grossly misinformed about how college football coaches are paid. Only a small fraction of football coachess salaries are paid by the AD. The vast majority is paid by private boosters and contracts for things like speaking engagements and endorsement deals.

Let me set a very simple example. You can easily check how much did Nick Saban get paid from UA, out of his 4+ million income.
Ah, you mean this contract:

That states the in 2012 the University would pay him "$3,975,000" for "rendition of personal services", plus a measly $275,000 for coaching, plus incentives for winning (why he needs that I don't know, thought his job was to win) 50,000 dollars just for having a dismal grauduation rate (even by SEC standards). Then on top of that he can get paid for his own endorsements, books, a speaking fees. Now, he may be getting paid out of the athletics budget which is supported by advertising and ticket sales but then again Alabama is one of those rare cases where the program actually turns a profit. But even in 2011 nearly five million dollars of the athletics budget came from allocated revenue. Guess where allocated revenue comes from. If you use the NCAA's information they state that allocated revenue "comes from student fees directly allocated to athletics, direct and indirect institutional support, and direct government support." So students and tax payers are on the hook for a successful athletic program. What does it look like at schools that don't have successful programs?
Kun Li
+Jacob Pulliam I know it's gone too far away from the topic, but I guess I can still kind of elaborate on how football, in my mind, bring more benefit to university than what most people think, and why calling out UF football is nonsense.

1 First of all, the advertisement university get from football is not included in dollars measured in AD budget at all. Football games are broadcasted by many of most watched networks, like ESPN, ABC, CBS, etc. This advertising potential is very apparent both historically and in the present.

For example, when George Denny took over as president of the University of Alabama in 1912, there were only 652 students. Denny used Alabama’s triumphs in the Rose Bowl to help grow the University to over 5,000 when he retired in 1936, or 11 times the number of students at the university when he arrived, and he also increased the faculty by a factor of almost six.

A 1994 poll taken at Alabama (and broadcast during the Georgia game) showed the football team was a major contributing factor in 74% of the students decision to attend the university.

Another example, TCU, which has only 4,500 students applied in 2000, experienced a record number applicants in 2011, which is 19000, because of heightened national recognition due to TCU's football victory.

2 Every university needs various sporting events to attract students, or in another way, to offer better education quality to students. While sporting events are very expensive affairs, football programs across the country allow these events to take place becuase of revenue provided by the football team. Without the funding provided by the football team, these other sports will probably take funding away from education, which is what you guys are fearing here.

3 Back to topic a little bit. UF's athletic department is funded by a separate, non-profit organization called The University of Florida Athletic Association. Their $2 million increase is unrelated to the university's actions involving the computer science department. UF football team is a net profit producer and supports other non-profitable sports. They have more than $6 millions incoming in last year in the whole AD, so what's wrong with $2 million AD budget increase here?

Again, I have no interesting arguing over "whether a football team is good for university or not". It's a far more complex topic than I can handle and more importantly, It's not my call, and I guess people made their choice already. I'm saying that the title of this article, and this post, are both misleading, and not true at all. If you disagree, show how UF football team affect the destiny of its CS department.
+Kun Li There was a question mark in the title Is University of Florida choosing football over science?. I agree that I do not know much on the running of US universities, but what I observe from outside is that the reputation of these (and other) universities may become more based on the international success of their distance learning programs than on their football and sport activities. We are observing a trend to move from on-site teaching activities to on-line learning. When we observe some remote lectures offered by some well-known universities with several thousand attendants, we can imagine that the contribution to the reputation of the universities may be shifting from campus-based sport success to the influence of their distance learning programs (measured by their e-reputation) and to the successes of their research teams (measured by their influential papers, tools and other discoveries).