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Plus One Collection - Let's Vote on Print Book Version and Move On

Yesterday I brought up a problem - which is a good one really - that we have 503 submissions and it makes creating paper version of the book rather tricky. I offered options and my own preference of creating shorter version of the book for print and big version as ebook.

The reaction was mixed. Some said, that's fine, let's curate a book, and create an affordable paper edition that will not have all the images but instead will focus on quality and affordability. Others said, but wait, that's against the original spirit of the project which said all will be included.

If you want to read all the good arguments, take a look here - http://goo.gl/5GwvV and http://goo.gl/AUbkY and http://goo.gl/Vaqfx - highly recommended before casting a vote.

Remember that all pictures will be included in the ebook (PDF) and app version of the book, no matter what we do for print.

So let's vote (+1 one of my comments which you prefer) and move on with this to the next steps.

Options to vote -
(1) 2 volumes of the book - all pictures included. Price - $150 for both volumes, soft cover, $174 hardcover.
(2) One book, curated version. $52 for softcover, $65 for print.
(3) No paper copy whatsoever - just electronic. Everyone's happy.

Also leave a comment if you'd like on why you voted. It's a debate! These are popular these days, so why not. But remember the 11th commandment.
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Phillip Colla's profile photoChris Gachot's profile photoTravis Montgomery's profile photoBill Wells's profile photo
98 comments
 
It's your show you decide . I wont complain , I just enjoyed looking at all of the photos .. 
 
Option 2 One book, curated version. $52 for softcover, $65 for print.
 
When you originally brought this issue up, I was leaning towards the multiple books to keep everybody happy, but since the price difference would be quite significant, and since all photos will still be included in the digital versions anyways, I decided to vote for option 2. At the end of the day, this is for charity, and the higher price point might make potential buyers hesitate.
 
Option 2. We need to be realistic about what the market will support. At the end of the day, everyone still participates in the eBook.
 
The fundamental and overriding reason for this book is to create additional funds for a very worthy charity. The best way of doing that is to work out a strategy to maximize said funds. I believe that quality and simplicity sells, which is why I voted for a single, curated book. Egos and selfish thoughts must be left at the door, as there are greater causes in the world than just ourselves!!

If my image does not make it into the curated book, then so be it. Either way, I will be buying a copy and will be promoting the hell out of the book.

Think big, selfless thoughts folks and don't lose sight of the real reason this project was started in the first place.

I shall now step off my soap box and put it back in the cupboard :-)

Have a great weekend all, and thanks again +Ivan Makarov for all your hard work my friend. 
 
I personally thought this book was more about charity than people wanting their photos in it. I dont understand why people are bitching. Curate it - a better book will sell more copies, which means more money for charity.

+Ivan Makarov FOR PRESIDENT!
 
I voted for option 2 after considering all of the comments in the other threads and the concerns regarding price-point (the one factor that ultimately affects the donations to charity which is a number one priority).
 
As much as i liked to have all photos included, i don't think there will be much volumes sold as the majority of the photographers are unknown to many and the price of the book is more then i would buy a book for!
 
If the curated book is a success, we can always talk about doing the second book of the photos that "didn't make it" like a b-sides type of thing.
 
option 2 is my final answer lol. Curated book with "collage mention" of those who didn't make the cut. Factors to see who gets full page......whatever it takes to give most appeal to sell copies. Thanks +Ivan Makarov
 
Option 2 because all pictures will be shown in the e-book. IMHO more people will buy a paper book with the lower price and I think most will buy the e-book. It is for charity, think of it. It should bring as much as possible for this aim. I'll buy both, even my image isn't in the paper book.
 
Option 1 2. I'm changing my vote because I think people are right. The cost of option 1 is just too high. I can justify buying at option 2's price point even if I'm not in it - especially if there's a list at the back of all the contributors (Look honey, my names in it!). ;^)

And if a second book comes out later with my picture, I can justify buying a second book.

I assume there will still be an electronic version? How much will it be? Also, I'm curious about the price points. Are they dictated by the print quality? The fact that there is a certain exclusivity that will make some people buy just because of the price? I'm curious. Even though the photographs are all volunteered the amount of work +Ivan Makarov has put into it is worth the price. It just clicked that the price is for both books. I was thinking $50-$60 a book, and it's not that much above that.
 
If option 1 - I wouldn't buy the book, regardless of my photo being in it. It is way too expensive for an un-curated book.

However, I would consider buying option 2 even I didn't make the cut because I would know it was edited down to be the best photos of the first year of Google+. And the price makes sense.
 
well that's not really a debate nor it's really open since each time we fall only on the worse solutions (just check option 3...)

yes it's a charity book, yes it's not really important if not everyone is in it
but really, and now, each of you have to be honest with yourself, will you buy this book (printed) knowing you're not in and have been excluded of it ? and +Chris Gachot nobody will by b side knowing it's less good than a side ... sorry to tell :/

so in any case presented here, this book will suffer loss of sell.

in any case, it's not against you ivan, you 're making great work,
but there's no good solution in this, i voted (2) only because it'll be the less worse for charity.
(by the way if you can put price of only one of 2 volumes for (1), can maybe change some mind.)
 
Option 2 is the way to go for sales! People would be more inclined to buy a single book of great curated images as a coffee table type book than one that's larger non-curated and more expensive. Never liked the idea of 2 volumes, most probably people will buy one not the other and many won't buy at all as they like completion and having one book is like having half the story and then buying both makes it less affordable for most! Just my opinion and great to be a part of this project whether in print or not!
 
+Silex Anthropos you are not thinking clearly. You are basically saying people will only buy the book if they are in the book - by that logic the b-sides book would sell - to the people in the book. 200 something copies? seems like a good idea to me. not only that, with a curated first book, there is sure to be a lot of great photos that get left out of the first book. Which would be put into the second book.
 
I agree with +Grant Murray.... If I make it, I make it.... If I don't, well then I'll BLOCK YOU ALL! :) Just a bad joke:) No really... We gave our images for a good cause, and we need to do what will be best for that cause. If someone did this for ego, well let them block away. Sure I'd love to make the cut, but I want the "cause" to get the most out of this.... A vote would be tough... How can we vote on 500+ images?
 
Option 2 ... I'm with +Chris Gachot. Ivan deserves a HUGE portion of the credit on this. Not sure if the Presidency is the best fit, but maybe you Bay Area people could generate enough interest to get him elected Mayor ;)

Thanks are in order for everyone who participated. Whether in the curated book or not, the charity benefits from everyone's efforts.
 
Option 2 One book, curated version so we can make money for the charity.
 
option 2 - I would be disappointed if my photo wasn't included, but honestly what have I done to help create the project, submit an image? Ultimately +Ivan Makarov is the one that has made this possible and he should be commended for giving those of us who only submitted a photo a voice.

Ultimately it comes down to really one thing...charity. I think option 2 would make the most of for them.
 
I must say, I think $175 for a book wouldn't make anything for charity because next to no one will buy it, if anyone at all...
 
+Chris Gachot I like that idea. Put out the curated book and print a book of the rest of the contributors, which the rest of us would probably buy, even if we didn't buy the curated book.

The big point that's been made, though, is that +Ivan Makarov has put a ton of work into the book, and he should do what he thinks will make the most money for the charity. Will many people buy a $175 2 volume set? Some will, if you can make them aware of it. Will all of us? I don't know. How many of us are established people with a lot of disposable income and how many of us aren't?
 
Like many others here I share the concern of the price point of #1, so let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good and go for the curated version.

I liked the suggestion of maybe getting a panel to vote on the images - we could get a diverse group of respected G+ photogs to vote (with people like +Thomas Hawk, +Trey Ratcliff, +Mike Shaw, +Mike Spinak, +Scott Jarvie, +Colby Brown we could get a very diverse range of well respected people) to solve the problem of only the first X images getting the vote because people didn't vote on the entire set.

And a huge thank you for doing all this very hard work +Ivan Makarov, we really appreciate it!
 
I like the idea of second edition of the book with "everything else" - but let's be clear here, this will have to wait until later date. It's hard creating one version of the book, let alone three.
 
I'm a bit sad that it has to be a curated book now. I was really hoping there would be a way of publishing all entries in the print version - with the community thought: all for one. And not just "the best" for one. But I understand that a high participation of over 500 images wasn't expected and this is blowing the original idea now - at least for the print version. $150 or more for two books is just too much, it won't be sold like a curated version, that's for sure. So I just voted for number 2 with a bleeding heart...(sob)...;-)
But I like the idea that all pictures will still be shown in the ebook. That version will probably be sold more to ordinary people with an interest in photography because it's much cheaper while the people who are really into photography will buy the print version - and for the price of $52/$65 they want good quality as well, understandable. I just hope the curation won't be for the names but really for the photos, that would be nice. Thanks again, Ian!
P.S.: I don't think a second edition will have any chance of selling. Who wants to spend more than $50 on a book of "photos that weren't good enough for the first version"? But maybe we should wait and see how the first edition is doing...
 
Option 2. One curated book with collages and the community idea will still be reflected by the electronic versions. Charity is the name of the game.
Thank you +Ivan Makarov for running this project and last but not least thank you for how you run this project. In my opinion it's a great example for a community project, of common involvement and culture of discussion, especially in phases of decisions and challenges.
 
Go for option 2. 1 is too pricey and you're not going to hurt my feelings if you don't pick my picture. In the long run you will probably make more money on selling the PDF copies because people will buy them for the cause and hey pretty pictures too.
 
+Ivan Makarov I changed my vote above, but just to make sure, I'm changing it from option 1 to option 2. I can justify the cost to my wife even if my photo's not in it - especially if there is a list in back of everyone who took part whether or not their photo is in it. And if you do a second book later I can justify buying it because, hey, my photo's in it. ;^)

Thanks again for all your hard work, and you won't disappoint me if I'm not in the book, either. Just make the best book you can.
 
So Option 2 it is then. Thank you everyone!
 
+Chris Gachot i just hope you're right, i don't think people will buy a book to offer when they are not in, even for charity (there's other way to help) ... but it's only a guess

i continue to think we should have just share the book with photo/one page and more photo/page ...
 
Option 2. I would like to promote this book to my friends in Japan too. But there are still many who hesitate to buy or look at it when it is not in Japanese version. If it will be two books in English (even most spaces are photo images), they will hesitate more to spend money.
We can still see all pictures in ebook, and I am looking forward to seeing everyone's work:) It doesn't hurt my feelings either even if my picture is not in the book.

Thank you very much for all your effort, +Ivan Makarov !
 
I agree with Chris. This might take some work, but I think we set up a panel of judges that everyone agrees upon. I think these judges then review the submissions blind, without names attached, and each give a blind score to the photo from 1-10. We then take the highest rated photos by this panel.
 
Also, maybe we could have half the book full paged photos and half the book 4 photos to a page or something to get more in. Still have a selection criteria for the half that are full pages though.
 
I vote for option 2 so long as my photo is chosen. lol.

Now seriously. I vote for option 2 and agree that a panel of Respected G+ guys get to pick their faves. I would think that a blind picking would make the most sense though. I think the photos should be chosen based on the photo itself and not the person who took it. Now that is not to say that I think the judges will be unfair. It simply removes the "I am not liked and that is why I wasn't picked" complaint. I am sure it would be easy enough to find out who submitted the photo just by searching G+ but I doubt a judge would go through all that.
 
+Ivan Makarov I just looked at the other posts. I didn't realize you were planning a collage of all the photos at the end. If that's still there, it's awesome.
 
On one side I would love to see all Picture in Books. To see all the great work an the different work and the range of the photos of this community.

On the other side I can understand that two books for that price could give some problems selling it what would be less income for the charity topic ...


So I voe foor option 1 and 2 ...
 
I'm voting for option 2, this is for a very good cause and I'll be buying the book regardless if I'm in or not. If not I'll just have to try harder for next years book ! (if it's s success and you do another one +Ivan Makarov !!)
 
+Matt Obrey you make a good point about "next year's book". +Ivan Makarov do you plan on this being an annual thing? I know I am putting the cart before the horse here, but maybe to settle people down a bit we can make it a rule that you cant be published consecutive years in a row. Meaning, anyone published in this years book would not be eligible for next years book.
 
G'day +Ivan Makarov looks like most are settling on # 2 -- I totally trust your judgement... I voted #3 because I like your "Everybody Happy" remark lol!! You could make E-book..of all photos... if that went over well.. We could always create a full paper book... I support & back you what-ever you decide! I know people are very happy to support new & unknown Photographers.. It should be a great seller which ever way you decide to go! Thanks:) (((hugs))) Marilyn
 
+Bert Knabe I can't guarantee it, but we can make it work if we find an efficient way to do it.
 
+Chris Gachot definitely not thinking about next year's book yet. This year's not even close to being done yet.
 
+Ivan Makarov Whatever makes it work. Being in the print book would be nice, but having so much input makes me feel I'm still a part of it. The effort you've put into getting this done and into making sure everyone who wants a say has it is just incredible. Thank you.
 
Pardon me if this was discussed above, I do not have the time to read all of the above at the moment as I am getting here late to the party and I have a lot of things to do.

Option 2

Why? I am thinking of Plus One: Best of 2012. We have right now 503 submissions for this book. What happens next year when G+ is a year older. There are even more amateur and pro photographers here and Plus One is successful. (and I hope it is) What do we do next year and Ivan has 1000, 2000 or more submissions to deal with. Do we up the volumes to 4 or 5 books. I say set a precedent now and curate the book. Besides, if don't make it this year it will just push me to become a better photographer and a better artist. I see nothing wrong with that.

+Ivan Makarov Thank you for doing this book and also bringing this to a community discussion. As has been said by others before I do not envy you or the curators, if you go that route. You do not have an easy task ahead.

Thank you.
 
Option 2. We have to look at the most cost effective and potentially "sellable" method to make sure the charity reaps the maximum benefit from the project. Creating multiple volumes is nice in that everyone will be published, but the potential of future volumes not selling well could hurt the entire project. Better to come out with one book that makes a really big impact as apposed to multiple volumes not generating enough sales as interest begins to wane.
 
Question +Ivan Makarov. Will the Curated print version include a free copy of the e-book? Or is that totally ridiculous?
Kab Yaj
 
My initial thought was to have one book with two images (no more) on each page as this will ensure that all those who contributed will have an equal chance. As seeing many are opposed to the idea, I'd go for option 2, a curated book. I know this is an incredible task for +Ivan Makarov alone, and if it'll make his job easier, I'd like to withdraw my submission so that the selecting process gets doable, one less photo to go through. It isn't important that I get published, I'd still support the project and be a purchaser.

All I ask from the curators is that they be fair and just in their curating.

Good luck everyone.
 
I voted for Option 2. I agree, it definitely would be nice to have a list of names and links to each photographer's web site - especially for those who did not make it in the book. Call it "Honerable Mentions". +Ivan Makarov , again many thanks for your effort.
 
Wow +Ivan Makarov my head is spinning just trying to catch up on this thread. You need a raise! You've been a gracious leader of this project. When it comes to a charitable project if I can help in any way please let me know and thank you.
 
I'm on mobile and can't, or don't know how, +1 the options. However I vote for option 2! A paper version is vital for the project and the 150€ price is just too much. I'm an unemployed student... But I still would want to contribute to the actual cause.
 
well..... I would miss seeing all of the photos and I am concerned that the curated set may settle into more predictable showy photos and subject matter. The eBook I like but we'd charge for it, right? Of course with an eBook we would never use the huge image files Ivan received and he'd have to convert them all carefully. Soooo, I guess Option 2 if it has to be that way - at least it would bring in money for the cause, right? Was the "profit" net figured with the prices quoted?
 
+Ivan Makarov - I do have one comment to make, it looks like a lot more photos were submitted well after the deadline. Were those included in your calculation? Whatever you decide to do is fine with me. I'm just lucky to have the chance to submit a photo and be included in this process.
 
+Ivan Makarov Thanks for your reply. Thought as much. :-) Was trying to make this easier for you. When I went back through the photos, it looked like there were a lot, but then I didin't think about when the images were emailed out to you.
My best -
Kay
 
Just made it 100 votes for option 2...seems the best idea for the ability to market it. Thanks again +Ivan Makarov for all the great work and like others have said, for keeping this a great community project!
 
Clearly option 2 is the favorite. I would add that although it would be great for everyone to make it in print the license that I signed did not guarantee that. I'm glad everyone will be in the digital formats.
So it appears that a curation is the way to go...
However, I do think the panel of curators should be unbiased and blind (figuratively) and not be anyone that has submitted a photo for this project. That (hopefully) is just common sense.

Stay the course +Ivan Makarov. It will be a great product in the end and I'm sure you have learned probably more than you bargained for! :)
 
It's fantastic that there has been so much involvement from the G+ community! Though having all the photos in a single volume would have been nice, a photobook that's over 500+ pages thick would be a bit much, not just for sizing reasons, but imagine shipping such a hefty book overseas! With that in mind, a smaller volume in the 50-60 dollar range sounds alot more reasonable, and should generate many more sales for the most important focus of this project - the charity.

Thanks for all your work on this +Ivan Makarov !
Wes Lum
+
1
2
1
 
+Ivan Makarov what I love best about this whole trip is how much you are willing to listen to everyone. No matter what, everyone will not be happy, but I think the main thing is to try and choose the best consensus.

I see a lot of great ideas like the small panel, maybe multiple images on some pages, etc.

If a panel is selected, I hope that it is a broad panel that isn't limited to professionals or amateurs, landscape or street, etc. I also hope that the final outcome doesn't upset anyone. I'm not so sure that final item can be achieved, but I think you're doing a great job getting there.

PS I voted for 2, even though I would like 1, the price is too high. I'm not sure it will be able to generate enough volume at that price point.
 
I think curating the book to keep costs down is the best idea, after all it is for charity. I voted option 2. I also think your idea "keep the collage of ALL photos in the final few pages of the book? All 500+ images, squeezed into 5-10 pages" is a good idea, that way everyone's name is published as a credit in the hard copy book :o) +Ivan Makarov
 
#2 I am not happy with it but my personal happyness is not important. Let's go the realistic way and make others happy.
 
+Wes Lum I probably do it mostly because if things go south, I shouldn't be the one to blame, because we all voted for it.. :)
 
+Vicki Wilson yes, we will definitely publish everyone's names in the end. Collage - still thinking about an easy way to put it together.
Wes Lum
 
+Ivan Makarov maybe I missed it someplace, but a $200 price point for 2 volumes means $20 for charity? How much of the $50-60 book goes to charity? Just trying to understand how many books would need to sell to get the same $$$ going to UNICEF.

Also, how much of the eBook will go to charity?
 
+Wes Lum $5 markup for charity on the book. Maybe we can even make it $10. Ebook will cost $5 - our profit on it is $4, and all goes to charity.

I'm certain we'll see at least 1,000 copies - especially ebooks.
 
+Wes Lum PS - with $200/book, no way we're selling more than like 50 copies, if that.
Wes Lum
 
Hm, just stepping back a bit and looking at the grand scheme of things. If the "Big Guys" pushed the book, I think you're underestimating the sales volume of even a $200 book, but I could be wrong. I think you are definitely spot on about selling more at the <$100 range, but I can't speak to how much of an impact a $200 volume of books would end up selling.

Any book marketing specialists here? lol
Wes Lum
 
Just thinking out loud here. One of the definite negatives though, of 2 volumes, besides price, is shipping...especially international. I think the eBook is where it's at anyway. Really that should be the main concern.

But, whatever the final decision, I'm with you...
 
absolutely option 2 and blind vote...and I agree with +Grant Murray , the goal is not a showcase...so keep going and thanks to +Ivan Makarov for his huge efforts
 
I vote option 2 also! I might even buy it myself at that price! 150$ is way too much...
 
I missed this post yesterday. The voting makes it clear what the best option is. I'm just marveling at your excellent use of G+ +Ivan Makarov ! Can you imagine trying to take a consensus and have a discussion like this via e-mail, or on any other platform for that matter? There is huge potential in Google + and you are putting it to use for a great cause! Thank you +Ivan Makarov :)
 
What so many in this thread have said. Option 2 hits the more realistic price point to support the charitable goal, and and e-book offers inclusion. I think that, at the nominal price you're considering for the e-book, it will be snapped up. The idea of a collage in the print version is excellent.

Our audience might find the high priced option, even with star endorsement, out of their comfort range these days. I think this is mainly being pitched to the cyberspace audience that gravitates towards Google+ as opposed to the "real life" audience who typically purchase art books and follow another set of photographers entirely. This is selling eye-candy, of course, and everyone is hungry for that. It is also selling the Google photography community but unless you're already aware of that, the marketing curve may not yet have reached that level (beyond our own friends, family and followers) to incent the general audience to purchase.

The book market in the past 10 years has taken a dive to the bottom and it's a tough place to make a living these days, IMO. Unless something is extraordinary or rare in the non-cyberspace world, even first-rate publications can end up in discount bins in no time.
 
+Ivan Makarov > the bottom line here is that we are creating a book to make money for Charity, not for ego-satisfaction. So, absolutely the book should be at a reasonable price point to make sure that it sells well and makes a significant contribution to a wonderful cause...
 
definitely the option 2. I would even hesitate to buy a copy for me with that price, seriously .. :)
 
Just got this........... ~grabs head from spinning in circles~

Ok I probably just spent the last 1½ hours reading comments and can't say that I digested every single one of them thoroughly. My thoughts (two cents) though would be that:
A) Price point is too high for the masses on option 1 and most likely would sell the least being multiple volumes.
B) Curated book seems to be the most liked (given the current circumstances)
C) It should be a panel of 5 - 10 of the top photographers on G+ rating the entries. As to those that were/are concerned about it becoming a popularity contest, it kind of is anyway. If I purchased a print in the past, it was because I liked it not necessarily because it was by a specific person. The process for those Top photographers that would graciously sign on to curate the photos and rate them is a valuable asset for the book and they should automatically be in the book in prominent placement! They in all reality will make the eventual sales even greater. Take those top photographers and +Ivan Makarov photos and set them aside and then have them pick from the rest blindly with no names attached to any of them. I don't see how it could get any more fair than that in my opinion.
D) of course go through with the other E-books with everyone included.
Remember that the whole point of this was/is to raise funds for charity Thank you for all your amazing work up to this point Ivan!
~peace
 
Option 4. +Ivan Makarov Why don't you supplement the cost of printing the book(s) by selling ads. You can still sell the book(s) and maybe at a lower cost so more can be sold and still raise funds for a worthy cause. Maybe Google would like to place the first ad. Yes it would be great to have a hard cover photo only on the best paper book, but unless some company with big pockets wants to have the "Plus One Collection" brought to you by... If the project is for charity the companies could possibly write off the cost of there ad. You could make guidelines for the ads and keep it photo, charity, etc. A win win as is said. Is there some legal reason this can't be done. This not a magazine but why not. This way all could be included. We all know what will happen in an edited version. A couple hundred will be included and the rest of us will end up on the cutting room floor as the movie people used to say. It's a worthy cause I am sure some companies would like be part of it.
 
I am definitely for Option 2 as well. People should not feel bad if their image misses the book. It will still be a part of a great project. It certainly won't hurt my feelings. And in the end, this is for a cause far bigger than each of our egos. A blind voting panel of 5-10 "top photogs" on G+ would be ideal in my opinion.

Making it affordable will let it sell and I would avoid the idea of selling ads. To many hands in the cookie jar. I believe that would make it to convoluted.

Kudos again on the project +Ivan Makarov... Seems like its went incredibly well so far.
 
Option 2, well that's cool... But it is going to create some bad feeling regardless of how positive people are trying to be.
I think that Multiple pictures per page is the way to go... It makes the page count smaller and more people would be featured. For example,10 images per page.. 500 entries... 25 double-sided pages... that makes both parties happy.
you can even put 20 smaller shots per page, feature a few of the "best of" on some and you can still walk away making everyone happy...
But either way, 2 is the better option. I am a team player, but a realist as well.
 
While I like option 1 most, since it was in the original spirit of the project, I see the sensibility of option 2. After all, if we don't sell many books then there will be less going to charity, which if I'm not mistaken, is the primary reason you're doing this +Ivan Makarov . You deserve a lot of accolades for the dedication, tenacity and thoughtfulness you've poured into this project. I think we're all looking forward to completion and release of this true labor of love.
 
Option 2, the better the book, the m,ore copies get sold, the more money is raised and that's the point, isn't it? To see one's picture in a book, everybody can make his own photo book.
 
I think sometimes means less (price for the book) more (raise funds for charity ) It will hesitate more people at a lower price to buy the book. For the entire project, there is the ebook version.
--> Option 2
 
+Chris Smith they have already choose option 2 and had a panel of photographers pick 200 shots blindly and are in the layout phase of it all. The details of those that were chosen for the print book will be revealed soon.
 
Thanks +Joe Vallee I've been traveling and only arrived home late last night. I was reading through things chronologically and I probably should have waited until completely caught up to make a comment. I'm pleased to hear about the progress made thus far on the book!
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