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Christians and house churches in China suffered a "serious comprehensive escalation" of government persecution last year, with a 42 percent rise in the number of cases.
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America has been doing this for the last four years, all in the name of EQUALITY and POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
 
+James Spedale
Theists persecution complex isalways so pathetic, especially when they compare it to people who are actually suffering persecution
 
+Matthew Agnich Yeah, like getting their heads cut off, being killed for Christ and all that.  Oh. That's probably not what you meant...
 
Lack of empathy +Matthew Agnich .

I'm defenetly leaning towards narcissism now. Does your dad have any guns in the house?

Matt I'm really worried about your mental health.

Persecution by a goverment of any people should be condemned and not taken lightly. Unless your a narcissist.
 
+Matthew Agnich 
You really think the vanilla oppression we endure in the US today will stay that way?
WAKE UP. It's going to get worse. It always does. You think Hitler immediately started gassing the jews in concentration camps? or did it slowly build to that point.

This kind of persecution steadily but always gets worse. Ignoring the non violent nature of it now, will come as a rude awakening when the secret police come up your street.
 
+Matthew Agnich are you saying discrimination and persecution are bad unless it's against a group you don't like?
 
+Jay Carlson
That interpretation of what I said is just silly.

Mr Spedale attempted to compare actual persecution against a religion in China with what is happening in this country. Pathetic to say the least.
To over play the victim complex in a country that is doing nothing close to what actual persecution looks like, is to not only belittle actual persecution but admit that one is mostly clueless to objective reality.
 
+JESUS GALLEGOS
Well since the US government isn't persecuting Christians in any form, I guess Mr Spedale didn't have a clue what he's talking about.
Like you, who somehow turned condemning a false equivalence into advocating persecution. 
 
+James Spedale
Clearly I'm not beholden to some man made religious dogma used to control sheep. So in your imaginary world where the 'secret police' are coming for you, I'd be just fine. Just like you'll be, because like your imaginary friend/deity, that scenario isn't real.
 
Persecution and discrimination by the government are bad.
People expressing their opinions in a 'free' society is not persecution, and it's definitely not persecution by the government.
It was a false equivalence. 
 
You added in by the government. That was not in my original question.  
 
I was cutting off your point at the pass.
Christians are not persecuted by the government, therefore comparisons of Chinese Christians and US Christians, in terms of persecution, are completely ignorant self absorbed assertions.
 
Was I making a point? Thought I was simply asking a question.
 
+Matthew Agnich 

So FORCING the Catholic church to support birth control, an action which goes against thier core beliefs, you don't consider that to persecution?

Or what about Nativity scenes being virtually outlawed in public places, yet if a muslim where to erect the Crescent Moon in honor of Allah or Muhammed, All is well.

Christians are being persecuted. Your "Ostrich" view of it, does not remove it from reality. 
 
+James Spedale 
You over-sensitive theist's ruin your own arguments as you speak.

The Catholic Church is not being forced to do anything. The insurance companies they pay are covering birth control, as per the bargain. Not to mention, if the Catholic Church decides to run businesses other than controlling sheep in a church, it has entered the secular side of our country's laws. They have to pay like every other business does. Their trickery over sheep holds no bearing on businesses that don't sell snake oil, like hospitals and schools.

If a nativity scene is allowed in a public space, then that public space better allow all religious and non-religious institutions to use that same public space as their forum. All or none.
If no one gets to use the public space, that's not persecution
If everyone gets to put a display up in the public space, that's not persecution.
Complaining about others getting equal access and equal rights is actual persecution. Oh the irony of the ignorant theist.

Claiming Muslims have more rights than you only shows how deluded your victim complex has become.
 
+Matthew Agnich You might want to re-read you remark. No, here I'll quote it for you. 

"The insurance companies they pay are covering birth control, as per the bargain."

So, birth control ( whether you believe in it or not) is against their principles. They are forced to support this by paying an insurance company that has to provide it.

I get that you are an atheist, but you have to see beyond the fact that a group you don't like could be forced to violate their principles. If it can happen to them, it can happen to you.
 
+Jay Carlson
My principles are not based on myths of misogyny and bigotry. Women's health should not be an issue in an equal civilized society. Only institutions seeking power by selling myths can advocate misogyny so blatantly and get away with it.
But lets be honest, the Catholic Church isn't a principled organization, therefore ignoring their principles should be easy. If they were a political party, they'd be finished after the child molestation scandal. But because people need to believe they know things they can't actually know, the Church gets a pass because millions of people won't accept they have been following a corrupt, man-made institution that wants only to shepherd their money away and gain undue influence over them.
 
So, my paying for someone else to have sex is an issue of women's health? Really?

Can this be discussed without your anti religion bigotry?
 
The Catholic Church deserves no respect.

Birth control does more than prevent babies. Isolating the argument to "someone else to have sex" shows a very fundamental misunderstanding of this issue. An incredibly misogynistic one, too.

Every women I have ever dated has used birth control to suppress or diminish symptoms of their period. If my biology required me to drop blood and sperm once a month over a period of a few days, while enduring cramps, headaches, bloating and neurotic emotions (sorry ladies it's true) then you better believe I'd expect my insurance company to cover medicine that alleviated those symptoms.
Anything less is saying women should not be treated with the same respect. 
 
+Matthew Agnich you like to respond to remarks that I never made. I asked if we could leave your anti religion bigotry out of this discussion.

Your argument about using birth control to regulate menstrual cycles and relieve symptoms is specious. You know good and well what is being discussed is contraceptives for the sake of contraception. Now, I'm not Catholic and I do believe in birth control. What I don't like is the government forcing someone to support issues that violate their principles. If you don't agree with a group that you are a member of, find another group. Don't get the government to force the group to violate their principles. You just like this cause you hate religion and like seeing Obama stick it to the church, but you're not seeing the bigger picture. You should care that the government is doing this. I'm sure you would care if the gov required you to support church missionaries building a hospital in Ethiopia.
 
+Jay Carlson
Specious? You clearly don't know the definition of that word.
Women use it to regulate their cycles, that very clear medical use is being ignored in favor of you calling all women promiscuous.
If the church wants to regulate employees of the church, fine. If the church wants to do business in secular society, like hospitals or schools, it must obey secular laws. Their religious principles are meaningless in this aspect.
Everyone pays taxes that ultimately go to things they don't like, or even go against their principles, but that's not an excuse to not pay. We are a equal society and treating women like their health is less important than men's is practically the definition of misogyny.
 
+Matthew Agnich 

Yes the Catholic Church IS being FORCED to support Birth Control. Why do you think they are suing the federal government for that very reason as we speak.

You try to sound intellectual by cutting everyone else down, flaunting your ignorance of the blatant disrespect and more often then not persecution of Christianity in this country, whilst at the same time a growing support and appeasement of Muslims and the Islamic cult.

Once again I say to you. Just because you PRETEND it doesn't happen, does not remove the FACT it does.
 
+Matthew Agnich You are irrationally defending the wrong position here.

BTW, taxes in this case have nothing to do with what we are talking about. You seem to have a problem with focus and staying on target.
 
+James Spedale 
The Catholic Church is being asked to support Women's Health in it secular businesses. Women's health includes regulating their periods. The Church's stance that it doesn't care about the comfort and health of women really is a joke in the modern era. Only can religion get away with such blatant misogyny and still be respected by ignorant sheep.
 
+Jay Carlson 
I've never met someone who debates as pathetically as you. It's hard to take you seriously because it's clear you prefer to focus on the most inane things.

The Church is being forced to cover women's health in it's secular businesses by the federal government because they operate secular businesses in the US.
The People are being forced to pay taxes in their personal pursuits and businesses by the federal government because they operate in the US.
The comparison is obvious for someone who isn't looking to be obtuse in a pathetic attempt to discredit.
 
+Matthew Agnich You completely refuse to see the issue here since it's the church and you are glad to see the gov sticking to em. Your spiritual beliefs make you bitter and intolerant.

The idea of the fed gov telling anyone that they have to purchase a product that inherently violates their principles is just wrong, and you'd squeal like a little bitch if it was something you were passionate about. As I said, I'm not Catholic and I do believe in birth control.but I am concerned about the bigger issues of freedom and liberty. You just want a bigger more invasive state.
 
+Jay Carlson
Assumptions seem to be your only recourse in arguing. Plainly stated, it's pathetic. I want a government that doesn't allow cheap skates and misogynists to pick and choose how they will support their employees, the same employees that are why their secular business is able to run.
Women's health is more important to me than 'sticking it to em'. I do work in health care. Secular businesses absolutely should provide heath care to their full time employees. If the church is operating any business outside the purview of religion, then their personal beliefs shouldn't allow then to pick and choose what they do.

But this argument isn't changing. +Jay Carlson What was your reaction to the west coast couple that wouldn't let their child see a doctor because "it was against their personal beliefs"? I'd like to establish how far you are willing to take the personal beliefs vs common good argument.
 
No +Matthew Agnich you're a good little communist and want the fed gov picking the winners and losers in the market place and everywhere else. You want the fed gov providing cradle to grave care. You want everyone drawing the same pay and benefits (preferably from the fed gov).

You know no institution has to provide health care. If an organization chooses to provide health care, but it doesn't satisfy your requirement you aren't forced into it. (except under the AHCA). Get you own insurance, oh except the fed gov has made this almost impossible. Don't get the fed gov to force me to compromise my principles.

As far as your straw man analogy, of course since a third party that is unable to choose for themselves is involved there is a point where if a child's health is in jeopardy some action should be taken. But this is as usual with you apples and oranges. Are you as concerned about the health and civil rights of a child inside the womb?
 
+Jay Carlson
You are pathetic. Assumptions make an ass of you, not me. Communist? Seriously? Because your arguments to defend misogyny fall flat, such vapid ad hominem attacks make you look like a child.

Zygotes are not viable outside the womb in the first trimester. That's when the woman has to take personal responsibility and make her choice. The second and third trimesters, when the zygote can become viable outside the womb, should only be allowed for health of the mother. 
 
+Matthew Agnich You are truly an ideologue. No logical discussion can deter you from your Utopian pursuit of complete fed gov control of our lives. And for Pete's sake please stop calling birth control women's health. You are just falling in lock step with the rest of the commies that want the fed gov controlling everything.

Your sad attempts to paint me as a misogynist are misguided and pathetic (you seem to like that word so I'll throw it in here). Doesn't matter to me if it was prostate cancer. If it would force an organization to violate their principles then it's wrong. If you are a part of that group and disagree, work inside to change it, find your coverage, or join another group. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY YOURSELF!! Getting the fed gov to beat them up and coerce them into giving you what you want is just wrong.

You and Sandy Fluke should get together. Y'all are made for each other.
 
+Jay Carlson
The fact that you can't argue subject matter without labeling the debater is pathetic. Your inability to defend your position doesn't make it necessary to make speculative claims about my political ideology.
Preventative medicine is the single greatest deterrent against high medical costs. Does this not spur the fiscal conservative in you? 
 
+Matthew Agnich 

are you so disconnected with reality that you can't even acknowledge the truth when its presented to you?

you try to justify persecution like you're one of the very foot soldiers perpetrating it.

how can you be so dense as to not see the reality of what is happening everyday in this very country.

If you are that ignorant, there really is no hope for you.
 
You know +Matthew Agnich  when you are so much in favor of utter complete control over every aspect of our lives, calling you a communist isn't labeling you it is simply stating the obvious.

The biggest deterrent to high medical costs is lack of competition in the market place. Competition between insurance companies and competition between providers. This is what spurs the fiscal conservative in me.

I want my plan. I want to pick the plan that is right for me and I want to shop for it among entities forced to compete for my dollar. I want it to manage it and I want it to be my plan, If I go on to new employment then I want my plan to go with me. If my employer wants to kick in something for it fine but if not. Oh well, it's still my plan and I want to be able to change it if something better is offered by another entity in the market place.

I know this is counter to your beloved Fuhrer telling me what I can have because after all the great one knows what's best.
 
+Jay Carlson 

I think we're wasting our time. T'woud seem the Government's re-education and indoctrination program already had a go at this one.

No matter how much proof we provide, this one is choosing to live with his eyes closed. Tis' best we move on to others we might actually save. Regrettable, But Necessary.
 
+Jay Carlson 
Medicaid has the lowest overhead of any insurance plan in the country, private or public. Competition in the insurance market isn't the exact same as competition in a commodities market. 
You do not know more than me about insurance or the industry. 

Jay, you are a pathetic child flailing at the winds of change. You can ignorantly label me in attempt to discard what I say is the truth, but in the end it only shows your inability to grow.
 
+James Spedale 
"you try to justify persecution like you're one of the very foot soldiers perpetrating it."
This sentence doesn't make any sense in context of anything I've said here. I'm starting to learn why it's so difficult to communicate with you, it's because you are a moron who'd rather pity yourself as a victim of imaginary persecution than acknowledge that your beliefs are man-made nonsense used to control your small mind.
LOOK! It worked.
 
+Matthew Agnich You assertion about the efficiency of Medicaid is false. Just more twisted data from progressive sites to justify the federal government controlling everything and limiting everyone to a one size fits all fed gov solution.

http://www.managedcaremag.com/archives/0602/0602.news_medicare_eff.html

You seem to have a problem managing information and distinguishing fact from fiction. Like your assertion that during  the depression crops rotted in the field because no one wanted to work. That was false as well but like this current falsehood it supports your communist agenda of supreme control by the fed gov.

Like I said before, I'm not labeling you. I am just stating the obvious in light of your support of totalitarianism.
 
+Matthew Agnich 
You humor me. Nazi foot soldiers, defended their actions in the concentration camps claiming they were ordered to do thus. While that excuse may clear them in a tribunal, it does not in the eyes of the people.
You, who like so many others see nothing wrong with the actions of the government, see nothing wrong with how they treat Christians, who will also probably help them to do it in the days to come.
Ignorance is not an excuse. Ignorance is not a reason. Ignorance will not clear your name before God.
 
+Jay Carlson 
"debate over U.S. health care policy is that Medicare administrative costs are about 2 percent of claims costs, while private insurance companies' administrative costs are in the 20 to 25 percent range," says "Medicare's Hidden Administrative Costs: A Comparison of Medicare and the Private Sector," funded by the Council for Affordable Health Insurance, an advocacy group for many of the insurance companies often held up in comparison."
The bolded part doesn't bother you? The fact that this advocacy group is a special interest group for for-profit insurance companies doesn't bias their opinion? 
The points made about advertising and administration salaries are good, if true. I guess I have to look at the study that quotes Medicare at 3-5%. We certainly know your mind is made up and I mistakenly trusted word around my office.

"Like your assertion that during  the depression crops rotted in the field because no one wanted to work. That was false as well but like this current falsehood it supports your communist agenda of supreme control by the fed gov."
So the crops rotted in the fields because the farmers wanted them too? There was massive unemployment, yet...? 
You know not what you speak of in this regard. I provide hyperlinks to facts, you provide your word. I win this one. Let it go.

"Like I said before, I'm not labeling you. I am just stating the obvious in light of your support of totalitarianism."
I disagree with one position in access to healthcare and you take it that I'm a totalitarian across the board on every subject?
Your ignorance doesn't support your assertions.
 
+James Spedale 
The United States federal government isn't persecuting Christians
Grow up and face reality. 
Your childish and pathetic attempt to equate Christian suffering in China to this country has been found wanting in every regard there is.
Open you eyes and lose the martyr complex, it makes you look like a fool.

"Ignorance will not clear your name before God."
You've never spoken to 'God'. IF you believe you have, go seek mental health counseling.
If you believe other's spoke to 'God' and wrote it down for you, not only is your gullibility hilarious but your lack of cynicism for ideas makes you a fool.
 
You know, +Matthew Agnich you always come down on the side of empowering the fed gov and shrinking individual freedom, initiative and responsibility.  Have you really thought about this or you are just driven by big gov good, free market bad, capitalism bad, rich people bad, socialism good? Hard for me to look at the history of your posts that I have seen and conclude that you are other than a statist. (a nice way of saying totalitarianist)

No, the bolded part doesn't bother me. So you ignore all the points made because you don't like the source? Rather narrow minded aren't you? However you are after all a statist and it disagrees with your support of all things government (except I'm sure National Defense).

And farmers in the depression had crops rotting in the fields because they COULDN"T AFFORD to harvest them.
 
+Matthew Agnich 

This is the part where I tell you to WAKE UP.

and once again say Just because you refuse to believe it, does not mean it isn't true
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