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President Obama's advisers tried to recover after a leaked White House immigration plan drew outrage from Republicans who accused the president of endangering the reform push. 
j kleine's profile photoCindy Mccoy's profile photoJay Carlson's profile photoMatthew Agnich's profile photo
So the President is lacking leadership if his fully detailed plan isn't out in the public view to be criticized yet having a plan endangers 'the reform process'?
Has there ever been someone who is as damned if he does or as damned if he doesn't?
You didn't read the article.  The White House is embarrassed because they put out half a plan that has no chance of success due to its serious flaws.  It has nothing to do with what you are saying.
Have they blamed Bush for the leak yet?
Just like the childish "King Obama" meme. These sorts of games only further the divide between the two sides. Someday partisans will learn politics is a zero sum game and rhetoric will change accordingly
Bi Partisanship = GOP giving dems everything they want.
I make no bones about the fact that I hate socialists.  I see socialism in everything Democrats do.  Bring on the divide.  Helping the poor is a subjective argument, and I help every day on a private level.  The government does a poor job, but it helps Democrats buy votes and enslave people.

So, to summarize: I despise income redistribution.  Democrats have no idea how to REALLY help poor people.  They are liars and cheats.  That's me: MR. DIVISIVENESS speaking at you because I do not sacrifice principles for some idiot's political expediency.
Your rhetoric pushes empathic people, who were previously unaffiliated, away from my party.
+Jay Carlson
That's a joke, seeing as how President Obama has nearly broken his back trying to reach across the aisle. Republicans won't even let ideas that are theirs get through. Senator McConnell actually filibustered himself when he realized what he put forward was going to go through.
If I offend a socialist, I'm not sorry.  Please accept my humblest non-apology.
This story on the presidents immagration reform wasnt leaked to the press, it was given too them to draw fire away from the fact that he was play golf with TW. 0bama will never lead, he needs to just go away. His plan is as always nothing more than a political ploy and has nothing to do with correcting the problem at hand.
+John Shepard
I don't understand why you try so hard to make sure you look like a child.
If you have a job in the U.S., you are a practicing socialist. Drop the buzzword and get informed.
You really should lay off the medical marijuana before you start posting.  It will return your basic reasoning skills.
+John Shepard 
& the inane childish comments continue...
You are a socialist.
You, yourself, have paid, in part, for the largest socialist experiment in the entire history of the world (the U.S. military). 
The US economy has never been pure capitalist. Since it's inception we have always been a mixed bag economy of socialist, capitalist principles.

All facts that point to you learning how to dsicuss issues rather than toss out buzzwords in a childish, and hypocritical, attempt to ridicule the other side.
Hence the political divide between you and I.  You and your socialist buds choose to see the government programs as your solution.

Until FDR, we were nowhere near a socialist state, and the fact that we have a military does not qualify any economy or government as socialist.  If you want to talk about textbook definitions of course.  That is my specialty.  You are correct that we are not 100% laissez faire; however, we are without a doubt not socialist by design.  It is progressive reforms by so-called liberals that brought us even to this point.

I am an entrepreneur, I DID build it, and I spend my time trying to wade through government regulation and political BS insomuch as they directly, negatively impact my overhead.

BTW, being passionate about principles does not make one childish.  If I feel as strongly about my beliefs as Thomas Paine, John Locke, and Adam Smith, it is a comparison that I relish.  

For you, as you align yourself with Karl Marx, why not choose your  idols differently?
Good point +Orion McClurg , and further to that point, it is not an economy at all because there is no exchange of goods and services among personnel.  The military pays men and women for their service.    The men and women do not trade back anything as they take the money they earn and spend it on good and services that they need to survive, and they do it whenever or wherever they want.

If you look at the military, it does not follow the Karl Marx ideal of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."  There is a pay structure determined by ability and longevity, and the men and women do not subsidize other military members at all.  It is a meritocracy in its highest form.  Completely anti-socialist.
+John Shepard 
Are you capable of having a conversation without childish assumptions about the person you are debating? Or are you on here to act like an adolescent child making ad hominem attacks on minimal information in an effort to marginalize the other side rather than engage them?
Also that's assuming I'm the other side at all. I didn't question the politics here at all, just how they were stated.

Besides , it's just fucking sad that you can't see that there are other positions that exist outside of your over-simplified black/white universe. This false dichotomy of if I don't agree with you 100%, then I must be a follower of Karl Marx or some such nonsense, shows how far you need to go before adulthood.

"I DID build it"
The fact that you still cling to this out of context argument tells me enough about how much you care for details.
You didn't build the roads to your business. Taxpayers as a whole did.
You didn't pay for the k-12 education for your workers to make them generally useful. Taxpayers did (in the Public education sphere).
You didn't build the police and fire departments that protect your business. Taxpayers as a whole did.

Such an ignorant counter argument. The RNC should be ashamed for making that the convention theme.
Amnesty ONLY for people not allowed to vote for 25 years.

You'll find that takes all the POWER out of Democrat arguments.
+Orion McClurg 
"The U. S. Military is a Dictatorship not Socialist."
I can see reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. I said nothing about how the military is run, I was speaking to how it's financed. Which makes it the largest socialist experiment in the history of the world.

+John Shepard 
Why would you +1 his comment? You know it was an ignorant statement taking what I've said completely out of context.
Only as out of context as the 47% by Obama.  Besides, no one will argue that roads and bridges, and education, are necessary functions of the government.

Redistribution of income?  No.  Obama is on record saying that redistribution of income is a good idea.  That is what he meant when he said I didn't build this.

Based on your profanity and your emotional dialogue, perhaps you should rethink who is the child here.
I love how a good solid argument without the chance to speak over and filibuster always takes the emperors clothes off..
Do as +John Shepard did and most liberals degrade into swearing and hateful seething speech they often attribute to conservatives.

That is the hilarious reality of socialism isn't it? Control over the poor, by the elite, all couched under the propaganda of: power to the people.
Wow, you guys really get your panties in a bunch over a word. Fuck as an adjective really gets you all up on that high horse. Words have the power you give them. Nothing more.
Also, why are all of you incapable of arguing about an idea without labeling the debater? Why is it so necessary for you to label me as a liberal? I have not advocated for anything, merely spoke facts about situations. It sure does seem like all of you are quick to ignore nuance in arguments just to quickly move to a label, so as to cease to think about what is being said.

+John Shepard 
That's not what President Obama meant in his completely taken out of context "you didn't build that" speech. 
It was a statement to social good and how our greatest potential achieved together.
Capitalism is the most effective resource allocator in many situations, but not all. That is a fact, as history has bore out.
+Matthew Agnich the president's ideals and methods are dividing this great nation. Intelligence is better shown through research not spewing party line B.S.. 
They released this on purpose. The idea that it was leaked is a convenient fiction to give plausible deniability. The purpose was to attempt to further divide the republicans. It was not a serious policy proposal.
I agree +Bradley Gillin . One of the many balloons floated by the current administration. It would be a win, win. If the public likes it then it moves forward. If the Republicans put up a stink, their arguements are spun against them to further divide the country.
Dare you kidding, thus is the worst president we have ever had.
I invite everyone in this thread to join me in civil unrest by wearing your underwear backwards on Friday in protest of socialism telling us what we can and can't do.
Dear Mr.Matthew Agnich:
Your Liberal brainwashed polemic is so primitive and your language skills are so poor that any future discussions with you are a total waste of time. You may only appeal to your badly educated, ignorant, "Know - No- History" union -educated brothers and sisters.They believe anything. I hope you are out of work. There are so many who deserve to work much more then you do.
+Anthony Poirier 
I do plenty of research. What have I said that you contest is 'party line BS'? & if I'm a concerned Republican, how does that measure up to how you, and everyone else, are viewing me in this 'conversation'?
 Nothing I have said has been even remotely wrong on this thread.
+Matthew Agnich You're a joke. Reaching across the aisle? The Obama Cartel has gotten everything they wanted tax wise but he has refused to offer any cuts at all except in National Defense. You really call that bi partisanship??
+Rafail Ogulnik 
You voted up your own comment? That's classic sign of a troll. Then the only person agreeing with your comment, was another troll. 
As the pariah of the thread, if a comment directed at me can't get more than yourself and a troll to vote you up, it shows how worthless your input was.
+Matthew Agnich I believe you lie about being a Republican. Every thing you post toes the dem party line, yet you claim you claim to be a member of the GOP. You are either very confused or you outright lie.
+Jay Carlson
I believe I emphasized disgruntled on top of mentioning that it's the party i more identify with, never outright stating, I am a Republican. Until the last post, where I emphasized concerned. Most recently cause of the absolute calamity of choosing Mitt. What a joke, at least Santorum had true conviction, Mitt was just a weather vane.
Also we are having a personal conversation that reinforces that fact about me, I promise to respond again.
Facts don't tow any ideological line but the truth. You can all say I'm a plant, or a troll, or a 'gook on the wire' but none can counter the facts I've stated.

That's the problem with politics in the internet age. Everyone escapes to their ideological bubble always claiming anyone that doesn't agree 100% is an 'Obamabot' or a 'Conservstard'. Or there are even worse partisans that claim "You are not a true......", falling victim to No True Scotsman logical fallacy.
I don't like to label myself, it gives lazy minds the little ammunition they need to disregard what's being said without thinking.
+john turner
'Homo'? That's the best you could muster to 'add' to this conversation?
Yes I'm a homosapien, just like you.
No I'm not a homosexual, not that there is anything wrong with that and only weak little minds would think so.
Look you are entitled to your opinion. As am I and it is my opinion
and the opinion of many that this is by far the worst president that
we have ever had, all the guy wants is to be a dictator. He wants to
regulate everything and we have got to stop it. No man is happier than
a free man. I don't want someone telling me what I can eat or drink
and when I can do it. Those kinds of things enslave a man not free.
Which life would you rather live???? I will take freedom everyday.
+Jay Carlson
You just ignored the rest of my comment about aisle crossing to call me a joke? You couldn't even bother to read the rest of the post.
All the framework of Obamacare is Republicans ideals. On the Presidential primary stage, EVERY Republican candidate stated they would not take a 10-1 spending cut-tax revenue deal. That is FUCKING OUTRAGEOUS.
We have seen nothing close to that in reality which goes to show just how extreme the primary candidates had to position themselves to make the cut. A 10-1 deal would have been one of the greatest accomplishments Conservatives could have gotten in the 21St century.
+Cindy Mccoy
Your over blown sense of victim hood is a good place to start when you start trying to view the world objectively.
+john turner
I proved beyond a doubt I've thought well past any headlines.
You, on the other pathetic hand, have walked in, thrown around some attempts at ad hominem attacks and then declared someone else can't think, when you've offered nothing close to an original thought anywhere.

You embarrass yourself by attempting to participate
Every time I hear a liberal say they do their own research it turns out it was an article from the Huffington post, or the like ..
I'm Canadian and we have the cbc to thank for the kind of opened mindedness that allows the crows and bugs to peck directly at the cranial cavity 
+j kleine 
Quote me, what did I say that was incorrect or that you would like sourcing for.
Also, why is it so important for you to label someone rather than counter what they are saying?
+David Jenson 
A 'general observation' that quotes me directly?
& I didn't require anything, if I am wrong, quote me, otherwise return to the bleachers with the other wallflowers who have nothing to add.
If they haven't I am surprised.
+john turner
Do you ever get tired of adding absolutely nothing to the conversation?
So you are the one making nothing but assumptions about me, yet somehow I'm the "know it all"?
These boards are for conversations about the subject, not worthless ad hominem attacks with no basis in facts, which you clearly enjoy so much.
& seeing as how this is an internet board, nobody is running their mouth, just typing. Details matter.
I'd figure people have more problems with someone like you who not only can't counter anything I say, but just came on here to silence me because you are too narrow minded to hear other views.
I'm free to do what I like, your fascistic attempts to control others shall be ignored.
If I'm wrong tell me where, we can have a conversation. But if you are just going to shout ignorant and meaningless tripe from the bleachers, feel free to keep to yourself. You add nothing of value here
+john turner
Wow you really are here to do nothing but make ass umptions, thus making yourself look like an ass. No where on this thread have I mentioned our previous President. Go beat up Strawman somewhere else.

I follow all stations that consider themselves to be news, regardless of ideological bend. I don't need your permission to be anywhere or do anything
In the grand bargain, yes. But fiscal hardliners prevented that.
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