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Detroit official tells President Obama to "bail out" the Detroit residents who overwhelmingly supported him in #Election2012 .  Detroit could go bankrupt by the end of this year. Should Obama give the city of Detroit the same bailout he gave its auto industry?

#Economy     #Detroit  
Peter Sitterly's profile photoHector Navarrete's profile photoJay Carlson's profile photoMike Mac's profile photo
Jon Dye
I know, let's sell Detroit to Canada and let them deal with it.
BAHAHAHA! "We voted for bail us out."
Oh the irony. I love this statement more than words can express.
I'm ashamed, at times like this, to admit where I hale from. #sigh  
Democrat losers.   ObamaPhones!  Free heath care!  Bring home that bacon Baracka Claus!!
It used to be that folks like this would bristle if someone suggested that they voted a certain way just to get some kind of benefit.  Now, they've dropped all pretense.  The line is forming now for those who want to get paid.
I wasn't a Mitt fan but didn't he say this is how the Barrymeister won?  You vote for me, you get free stuff.   Only free isn't really free, he'll just take it from the people who work for a living and didn't vote for him.
Yeah, you just gave all your resident's money to the unions and lined your pockets; why can't the entire NATION stop and give you their money as well?

Lol, but even mitt said lamer things than this ;)
Mike Mac

No where in the article does it say she said "We voted for you, now bail us out" typical FOX distortion,  as good as their usual "might"  "maybe"  "could"  no where does it say anyone asked for anything free either, it says he was elected now solve the problems.

But run with it, something needs to excite you or your dead inside.
Did everyone see where Joann "Bring Home The Bacon" Watson paid only $68 in property taxes for YEARS, short of the $2,000 or more she should have?   Now she wants us non-residents of Michigan/Detroit to pick up her slack?   Where do total jerkwad losers (technically speaking) like this come from?   Hey, Baconlady!  How about YOU send ME money? 
+Mike Mac From the Chrissy Mathews school of the intentionally deaf, dumb and blind.  She said "we voted for you, bail us out;  that's how it works;  quid pro quo;  bring home the bacon."  Geez, you are so dishonest you lie to yourself.   Spin, spin, spin.  And when it all stops, the economy will be in the ol' crapper and you, as a taker, won't able to buy your fresh organic tofu.  It's so funny;  enjoy it, Mikey.   Stock up on canned goods. 
+Ken Carlos   no, did not see that anywhere in the article.  Even if true I am sure that Detroit is is bankrupt because she didn't pay property taxes.  I hear Hostess failed because you kept a quarter you found on the sidewalk outside their building too.  Man, you should have turned that in and saved the company.
Sad! First the police departments issue a warning to only come to Detroit if have a need to be there.... Wow.. this is a very tuff place to be as a nation. Since we bailed out the Auto industry how can we not bail out Detroit? What would it say if we did not bail out Detroit now? Private business wins where people do not? So if we would have done more to put people to work would we still have to do this now? I do not see how we can not help them. If the US tax payer bails out Detroit do we get free cab rides when we are in Detroit?(just kidding) This just proves that we are going to have to prop up the x-stream failed parts of the US. This kind of need is just starting. And for that matter who knows when it will end? LOL I saw something pop up about "FOX distortion?" Since the county and the state voted for Obama it is implied that is what is going on here. Never fear CNN/(C)NBC/CBS/ABC and all other do the same thing the other way as well! I just do not see how we can not help! Even though I do not want to!   
C'mon folks, we've only lost $15B so far on the GM bailout.  I know, I know BO said he saved the auto industry and you all thought everything was great in Michigan.  But, it's about fairness.
+Mike Mac Stop it!  You love this mentality, Mikey.  Embrace it!   Promote it!  Own it!  The property taxes she didn't pay wouldn't bail our your lefty morons in Detroit, true.  But it's typical of your kind;  I don't want to pay for my stuff and will vote people in who will force responsible people to pay my way.  No, no Mikey boy.  This is all yours.  Celebrate good times, COME ON!
+Brent Alexander ok I will take your word for it, but what does it really change?  No one is asking for "free stuff" they are just asking for their government to fix what decades of mismanagement have caused.
+Brent Alexander - +Mike Mac Likes to think we make this stuff up...

She said- "After the election of Jimmy Carter, the honorable Coleman Alexander Young, he went to Washington, D.C., and came home with some bacon," Watson said. "That's what you do," Watson said.
"There ought to be a quid pro quo."

+Mike Mac - Direct translation- "This for that."
I know you will say you didn't need me to define it for you, but your comment above says otherwise.
+Ken Carlos   why because you make absurd comments do you feel the need to try to say I have lefty moron friend in Detroit or anywhere? 
+Mike Mac I don't live in Detroit.   DC didn't dork  up Detroit, doofus irresponsible liberal morons did.  Let them and loving liberals like you pick up their tab.   Let's go, Mikey!  Write a check for Baconlady's shortfall.  It's your way!   I'm laughing;  Mikey got what he wanted now he doesn't want to accept it.  
+Paul Jewkes    you may want to look it up,  it does not mean  "free stuff"
Obama already has a cool trillion in gov't commitments sitting on his desk today...why not throw on a couple more million!
+Mike Mac By friends, I mean people of like mind you dense human being.   You wanted this leftist government and you got it.  Now celebrate it.  Say "Go Baconlady!  That's what I'm talkin' bout!  Quid pro quo the roof off that sucker!"
+Ken Carlos   make your arguments, as a matter of fact... the GOP stooge that lost the election made tens of millions off the failure of the auto industry...
+Mike Mac You are quoting "free stuff" like I said it....

"This for that." The Headline reads- "We voted for bail us out."
Last year, the Detroit Tigers payroll was $119M.  Tax those rich players!  They can afford to pay a little bit more.
+Ken Carlos how does someone from the American Taliban party that denounces science understand the concept of density?  And who says I wanted it?  But I can say , as did America, we sure didn't want the weak sauce the GOP put on the offering alter to be sacrificed.
Everyone gets a bailout and paid for lifestyle. Come on now let's get this party started!  Baracka Claus sack is full of stimulus money, free phones, cash, cookies, warm puppies, peace, love, hope and Unicorn flatulence.   No one has to pay.  It's all free.   Here he comes in his magic BarakaMobile to Mikey's house to pass out his free money.  
+Mike Mac The American Taliban Party?  Awesome!   You can't justify the Baconlady Bailout so you hurl names.  Bring me some Hitler now, you small minded man.   And then let's bread out the old guitars and sing the song of Baracka Clause.  Everything is free!  No one pays!!! 
LOL  +Ken Carlos  you are humorous, but not for the reasons you intend  hahaha  you will be ok, taxes will go up (just like they would have under a GOP administration) and you have 4 more years to practice the only skill you appear to have, it really must suck to be so unhappy.  I know the loss in the election was tramatic
+Ken Carlos  would you rather be called American Taliban, or a bed pissing teabilly?  I can go with either, I have no preference.  all spoon and no bowl.  You can sling weak insults, then whine when someone sends one back.  awwww.  someone give him a hug and find his pacie before he wakes the neighbors
Get ready folks, because the whole state of California is going to be next to request that the Federal Reserve "expand its balance sheet" to bail it out.  Illinois won't be far behind.
So ... Just means Detroit will be a super sized ghost town. The U.S. is full of them. 
+Mike Mac No... he would prefer that you stick to the topic and not resort to name calling every chance you can't hang in the conversation...
+Paul Jewkes  then maybe he should not have started it lol  I am pretty sure he will need you to help defend him though.
I mean really get off ur butt and get a dang job ur not my responsibility!!!!! #jobless
If we start down the slippery slope of bailing out failing municipalities and states, it's going to be game over.  
+Paul Jewkes   so now you have resorted to personal attacks too ?  LOL  and you defer from the topic while chastising me for deferring from the topic.   really.  priceless.
+Mike Mac It had to be done. 
Sometimes lessons aren't learned the easy way...
Now that you know where you stand...

Was Mitt Romney wrong when he said that Obama won because he gives handouts? 
and for your info, all government is based on quid-pro-quo, all.
why now it is Chicken Little Hour ?  why is it so bad a city counsel woman wants the POTUS to do something to help her city get their people back to work ?
It's bad because the same people who mismanaged it all for decades now want a fresh pot of cash so they can continue the pillaging.  It's like a mass murderer who has run out of bullets, sitting down in the middle of the carnage and demanding more ammo.
So in other words they sold their votes and now the President is reluctant to pay the bill. You can't make this stuff up I don't know if I should laugh or cry, I think I will do both.
+Paul Jewkes considering  you conceded any valid argument you had when you did it, I guess that was your way out of intelligent discussion, and I understand why.  I knew where I stood before, but we now know where you stand.

As many in the high end of the GOP have said, yes he was wrong, and I agree with them, it was his excuse to divert focus from him, his poor record and  his piss poor campaign.
The loser always whines.
+Brent Alexander  states and the Fed have been bailing out failing cities for decades... why now is it such a catastrophic issue?
HAHA! Again +Mike Mac Just because they have been doing it in the past doesn't make it OK! 

That is why we are in this mess!!
+Paul Jewkes   where did I say it was ok?  why do you insist on trying to make an argument that is not there by inventing words I did not say?
+Paul Jewkes Exactly!  The mass murderer that's demanding more ammo is flabergasted that the cops are making such a kerfuffle about his deeds.
Ya know before FAUX NEWS got it's name, they were considering the name GOP TV, it doesn't matter c because people know a Greedy Old Pig party faux news network when they see one.
Oh man...again +Mike Mac takes on the role of not taking any side all the while taking a side...

Typical Mike Mac. So typical.

Good luck arguing without taking a side! 
Detroit...home of the free cell phones and "Obama Money" (Google it if you don't remember). I say sig a note around d the city, post armed guards, don't let anyone out. Best thing that could happen to that dump of a city.
The Reps always seem to find money for the shit they need.
+Brent Alexander  so what do we do? Let the cities die?  Let the homeless roam the streets? Let the children of those who are jobless because their jobs were sent to China go hungry?

 We have been borrowing for decades, spending money we did not have, the GOP voted to raise the debt ceiling every year Bush was in office, knowing full well we could not pay for it.

Why now that we have a president that is from the "other party" that actually has slowed the run-away-spending, is everything now bad bad bad ?
+Paul Jewkes  because I do no fall into your trap by taking a side you have set up ?  LOL  I have a side, you just do not get to choose it :)
Think about it as if this was your child +Mike Mac 

Your son named Detroit comes to you looking for money...You have been giving to your kids for decades...

You are up to your eyeballs in debt and can't afford to bail him out on his mortgage payment one more time. 

What do you do? 
1-Let him fall out to the curb- displacing your grandchildren in the process?
2-Let him move in with you? You only have a 1 bedroom home.
3-Give him what you can (not money because you don't have any to give) and teach him a skill that will help him get back on his feet?
+Mike Mac I believe we are fast approaching the limits of how much we can borrow or print and remain as a going concern.  There is a hard stop somewhere, a limit of some kind.  We are already seeing symptoms that have never been seen before.  Yes, both parties are guilty of it, but it has to stop.  Whatever moral obligations anyone thinks we have to take care of whoever....don't matter if we are not in the financial condition to provide the help.
+Paul Jewkes  referencing FOX as Faux is a play on words,  would not expect you to "get it"

+David Meyer so you feel pissing on the Constitution and the rights it provides is the answer ? 
+Tina Vigilante   exactly...  GOP Reps always bring home the pork.  always.  But this is a Democrat, the same standards do not apply.
Detroit has been screwed for decades lol .. all the money is in the burbs, outside of detroit .. i remember one time down there, around '94, i remember looking down streets that still had store fronts from the 70s .. ghost streets with all the houses boarded up, not a person in sight, just the odd zombie looking crackhead, wandering around .. these streets were everywhere .. lots of vacant factories with the parking lots full of tall weeds .. i think their last mayor is in prision right now lol .. poor detroit .. motor city madness.
Yes Mike, hypocritical as usual, it's ok if you're a Republican.
+Paul Jewkes lets add to your analogy to make it more applicable.

This "child" is in his situation partly (mainly) because of bad parenting, parenting that allowed the work they were doing to be sent overseas because they did not put proper rules in place to make sure they took care of their own. They sold their child out.

Now, does that parent have an obligation to try to correct their past sins and fix what they broke?  they should be responsible and share that one bedroom with their child that through their own actions and inaction's have made dependent on them, even if the parent has to sleep on the couch.

a "good" parent takes the child in and tries to get them back on their feet.  A "bad" parent tells them to FO&D.

Your advocating telling them to FO&D
I say that is wrong.
It's ironic... what makes Detroit so special after they got bailed out once already?
You assume I am advocating that. Not once have I said- SCREW DETROIT! Let them fend for themselves. (Others have. I have not.) That's cute of you to pin me to a position though...much like you accuse me of doing.

I say you give that child what you can- Not money- and teach him all the  wisdom that you have as a parent... Help him get a job and get back on  his feet.
But it's easier to just hand over the credit card...even though the limit is being over-reached. Heck under Obama there wont even be CC limits!! :) YAY!

Second problem with your statement- 
You are attributing good parenting/bad parenting as a solution. Aren't you the very person that I argue with about good parenting and contraception laws? 
Flipping sides on parenting matters now Mikey?
Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Jesus were here, today, in the flesh again. Then, I imagine Him running for POTUS. Would Republicans be angry at Him because He was healing people and washing people's feet?

If our government isn't for us, then it must be against us, right?
+Peter Sitterly 
Jesus will reign king someday. That's right...a monarchy.
But we can't bring up Jesus in these makes the atheists mad. Shhhhh.
So-called Fox News, "smart people" never listen to this crap !!!!!
That's right +Sierra Gannon Instead "smart people" just pop in on conversations and make blanket statements.

Heaven forbid those "smart people" actually join the discussion!
Never listen to what crap, yours???
This is what you get when you vote a socialist into the office of the presidency of the Republic of the United States of America. If you believe the lies that politician's speak to get elected. Then you have no right to complain when that government ignores you. Promise's of freebies to you while the government, removes your rights, tax's you to death, only to support it's tyranny. If the government would stop giving away promised freebies in the form of welfare and food stamps the savings annually would be $ 700 billion plus. That is a great start to cleaning up are fiscal cliff and insuring the programs that actually work efficiently for all Americans are maintained. Not just a select few that have learned how to work the government programs in their favor.

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I posted this hours before FOX did.

No surprise here. California will be next I bet. 
One 9.0 on the richter scale coming up.
+Mike Mac I take a  break to work (Mikey that means where you labor, get paid and then Baracka Claus takes a half or more to give to the deadbeats like Baconlady) and missed Mikey boy calling me a "bedwetting teabilly."  You just cannot argue with inciteful commentary like that.  The logic just rolled me like a drunk in a Detroit alleyway.   Intelligence:  they name is Mike Mac.   By the way Mike from from govt teat are you suckling?  Govt worker pension?   Medicaid?   What?  Tell us, please.
+Mike Mac And no, I'm very happy.  I plan to take a front row seat to watch the deadbeats figure out that B. Claus as run out of other people's money.   Their ObamaPhones will go dead while they are texting their friends in line at the welfare office after they ran down the battery at the SS Disability office waiting for approval of their disabiltiy due to obesity.  
More of the Democratic Posture: Arm extended, palm up...
Did I hear Ms Watson mention the "honorable" Coleman Young, Detroit's former mayor? Went to D.C. to bring home the bacon. Considering Detroit's present condition it's fair to say he scarfed himself a pretty large BLT on the way home. As the councilwomen says, "our people" supported their messiah. Expecting a quid-pro-quo. The woman may have studied Latin. She might have considered learning "reale politique". Often wonder where Fox News' critics get their news. PBS? A/NBC/BS? CNN. Or Obama's public affairs network MSNothingButCrap? Not to jump into the theological WWJD debate to hard. But it might be instructive to recall Jesus provided his own bread for feeding & water for washing. And one need not be on any Galilean healthcare program to get a miracle. 
I've sparred with +Mike Mac on a few occasions.  He always ends up calling me "teabilly" talking about
"Faux News."  He's got nuthin but vitriol.  Oh, and a govt paycheck he's tryign to protect with his vote and our wallets.
But take heart everyone:  Baraka Claus met with noted financial genius and tax-evader Al "Tawana" Sharpton on how to save our economy.  I'm sure he recommended calling all taxpayers racist and then protesting their businesses until they cough up the money to pay off the deficit.   I mean, that's how his business works--and works well.   So, let's get us a protest goin and pay off that pesky debt.  
She has been on the city council for too long. And it is because of the Detroit city council that they are in this position.
+brenda dixon-hines I think I recall our lively discussion on Hostess.   When folks stand by their comments and explain them, we usually end the discussion on good terms.  Mike Mac makes no sense, ignores facts (actually denied that the baconlady said what literally said on video) and then calls me names like "teabilly" and worse when I make jokes about the utter absurdity of those comments.  Good to have you back in the fray.
+Ken Carlos I think 90% of people on G+ interested in politics have sparred with ol' Mike Mac. It's the same story every time.
So, let me get this straight: they are expecting to get money for their  vote? This is pure corruption - they admit that they will vote for any asshole who pays them. I wonder how this councilwoman paid voters to elect her, probably promised to get them government money if they vote for her:(((
I'm sorry, I'm new here. What is "Obamaphone" and what does that have to do with this article? 
+Paul Jewkes Yeah.  He's really got nothing.  He'll toss out a few semi-sane comments and then when you call him on it, he'll call you a name.  I'm usually a bedwetting, incestuous teabilly member of the American Taliban who impregnated my teenage sister on my way to a Klan rally before I head to the animal shelter to pick up a litter of puppies to put in the microwave.   He's like a brochure of your favorite lefty loon bumperstickers.   He reads them and when you ask him what it means, you get called a name.
Hey Fox News haters....go home and kill yourselves! You people are truly pathetic. Used toilet paper has more value than any Obama supporters!
Let me take a few seconds to let the class waft over me.  The gene pool is shallow at this tea party.  
Congrats, Fox NEWS!!! So many critics. And so "elite". You're doing your job. And the tards go all hissy because you tell the truth about their tin "god". MSNothingButCrap pie-holes. 
+Paul Jewkes I'm just sick of these pathetic turds saying faux news and fox news lies. How did this country become so stupid? Who are these clowns and what rock did they crawl out from?
Personally I have crawled out from many rocks. lolo Anyway, the Bailout needed in this circumstance is management skills or the escape of mismanaged and misappropriated funds. Both I am guessing.
+Paul Jewkes Wrong, these morons aren't going away. We need to play on their level. Thats how the election was lost and its how this country will be lost (unless we learn). These people should be chemically castrated and put on their own island!
So you didn't read the article or watch the video...

Hey everyone! We have a winner!! His name is +Michael Brodbeck 

He just won the lotto with a jackpot of "typical liberal!"
BOOM! Let it rain!   Oooooh and he even went with a creative one! 

I am just so proud of my little liberal. Growing up into a big money wasting, name calling, liberal so fast!
Let Detroit die. If the inhabitants can't get their shit together and solve their problems no one else can. No bail outs for failing cities. Let them die. 
+brenda dixon-hines Why is it called an Obamaphone? Is this free phone some kind of handout program started under Obama or something? 
Romney paid no income taxes for 17 years, lets raise taxes on these freeloading greedy bastards and save Detroit!!! 
Jesus was eaten by dinosaurs, and then they shit republicans, and vomited democrats.  

Yay #nonsense is fun!!!!
Probably a burrito.  Jesus makes one hell of a good burrito.  
I know Santa too I'll try to get you his autograph.  Happy Holidays!
CrazyFox news is at it again...
Oh well then go suck a big fat........Werther's Original butterscotch hard candy.  I hear they're fantastic.  
They are. Love butterscotch. How kind of you. How reasonable.
Age is not an excuse for ignorance and believing in fairy tales.  And poorly written ones at that.  
Tink D
our government can't bail itself out never mind the city of Detroit. How many cities would then follow and ask for the same bailout.
Y'all probably didn't graduate college, huh? FoxNEWs ya turds. 
The bail out of the auto industry was just that. An entire industry. Letting the auto industry collapse would have had a negative impact on everyone who relies on automobiles in their lives, and would have created yet another dependence on foreign imports.

Detroit, the city, is just that. It's a city. It will affect the people of the city, but not the entire U.S. There could be some assistance, but not a complete bail out.
Romney might have been able to help Detroit but Obama don't have a clue. Well , we will never know. I would get the hell out of Detroit right now.
Ironically I am sure she would be first to criticize anyone that suggested Obama voters did it for 'stuff'.
I think there's an Obamaphone app Jeremy, from what I hear it's a stupid racist app.
This is why you do not bail out anyone!
+Jay Wilhelm you clearly have a racist sense of humour, or your an out right bigot. Not funny, show some class.
Funny how they use the GM bail out that was about 15b and not the bank bailout under Bush administration that was over 700b. 
Fox and it's supporters are beyond prejudice, not to mention hypocritical. Who gets more handouts than the rich?
Don't give them a handout!!!!  They went bankrupt by themselves so they can get out of it by themselves.  
I want to be sure I'm getting this right, since it seems like I must be missing something. Obama is giving out free phones? And it's called Obamaphone?
No one or any company should get bailouts it's a capitalist society.think or swim
+George Ito People voting for Obama wanting handouts isn't exactly news worthy... is it?
+Jeremy Tregler Not exactly. It goes something like this. There's are government programs called Lifeline Assistance and Lifeline Link-Up that have been around since the 90's. The programs provide discounts on landline phones for financially disadvantaged people. By the time Obama entered office, mobile phones were starting to be as commonplace (or more so) than landline phones, so distribution of mobile phones through this program also began.

So it was all a matter of timing. If cell phones had been popular enough under Bush, these would have been called Bushphones. If they had been popular enough under Clinton, these would have been called the Clintonphones. Since people just love painting Obama as a socialist, it became a popular pastime to start circulating alarmist emails about the fact that Obama is giving out free phones to people because that's what socialists do.

Eventually, some people who utilize this program caught wind of the "Obamaphone" name and thought it was the legit official name. Similar to how the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act passed by Congress has been called Obamacare. There was a particular video of a particular woman who was praising Obama for her "Obamaphone" that circulated. This was then taken out of context, this particular woman was cloned, and she somehow became representative of the entire 47% of the U.S. population. I guess I must have forgotten to vote for her. This is also odd since Obama won the popular vote with 50.7%. Maybe it's just a rounding error. Maybe there were just some wealthy Republicans that accidentally checked the wrong box.

So, this is what it all boils down to. The Clintonphone became the Bushphone which finally became the Obamaphone. I suppose if Romney had become President and didn't axe this program, it would have been called the Romneyphone. I can't wait to see what it will be called in 2016.
+Ken Carlos   guess you had to rest up, now your back full of hot air again.  

Obama phone?  
There is no such thing as an Obama Phone.
never has been, fact is...
it's The Reagan Phone ! 
or do you prefer Republican Phone?  

You know the one that the republican President instituted?  that guy Ronald Reagan?  
remember him, "The Great Communicator" ?  
The one that normally used a teleprompter?

The one that kicked off the run-away spending spree that got us to where we are today?

Gosh, you remember him don't you?

The spending spree that has consumed all our resources, and resulted in over 80% of our debt being accumulated during or as a direct result of policies and actions initiated during GOP administrations?

We could blame the "commies" in congress and claim they were "in power" except the GOP president had veto powers and did not use them, what a shame you can not use that argument and not look a fool, right?

damn.....  no wonder you feel the need to argue and issue personal attacks....

And you consider this "sparring"?  LOL   you do have a perception problem.
No bailouts.  Period.  Once you go down that path, then everyone wants a bailout too.  Why cant we keep our money so we can help each other on our own; without the govt telling us who we should help.
Hey people !!
Do your ass a favor !!
find a job!
Thats the way to bail out your ass!
O bummer is running out cash!!
By the second!!!

These people are the problem! Along w/t unions and the leftist! They want for nothing what we all must work for! If they don't get then it's always "whitey" hold the black man back!oh! Really couldn't be that those in the slums and shantytowns all across America! Be the problem! Close those legs! For the $$$ that hole makes! Quit drinking the nighttrain! Stop killing each other for dope and bi#@hes! And just maybe quite crying and get a JOB! OR BETTER YET! Educated! Just maybe ghetto dwellers, those big bucks will quite shooting your women and kids! It's not "whitey" it's "blackie" so let's stop the slave shit and get real ghetto! It's all yours and those leftist you vote for! Sew how education can help! Obama couldn't have used you then!
+Jon Mamalakis It's a nice theory, except it never really pans out that way. For instance, the wealthy are supposed to be the job creators. The wealthy have had significant tax breaks for several years. Unemployment skyrocketed and is just barely making its way back to square one. So, it's pretty clear that when you leave it up to the job creators to create jobs, and even give them tax breaks to make it easier, they just don't create jobs. Greed rules the day.

Likewise, you can't just leave it up to the whims of society to decide to create interstate highways, to put out their neighbor's house when it catches fire, to seek out and feed the hungry, etc... It just never works. You end up with fires spreading everywhere, people dying in the streets, etc... It's just a huge mess. So, it makes sense for everyone to pool together some of their resources and find ways to collectively solve bigger problems.
+Jeremy Tregler   its not an ObamaPhone, its a Reagan Phone.  Ronald Reagan started a program that required telecommunications providers to charge small fees on every bill to put into a fund to pay for limited use phone service for the needy. One idiot called it an "Obamaphone" and the Rightie psyche-warders did what they always do, latched onto a falsehood and tried to promote it as a fact...  it jsut makes them look foolish really....
Instead of asking for the tax payer funded bail out she should be asking where are the jobs!
He better give it to the rest if us if he intends to help Detroit!!
I understand most of the South already gets a whole lot of assistance without paying much of anything for it. If you're going to secede, could you hurry the hell up? Us Liberal states are tired of paying for the rest of you mouth breathing deadbeats.
I would definitely say that we live in some really interesting times. The right wing has been traditionally the most vocal group for being patriotic and holding to the values of the political system. Incidentally, the left wing is now the majority. (Assuming you subscribe to the notion that the only person who would vote for Obama is part of the left wing.)

With the right wing quickly disintegrating into an ever-shrinking minority, the tables have turned. I wonder if the right wing will become the new "tree huggers". They'll be using words like "preserve" and "protect" and will be the ones picketing and forming unions. It's some pretty crazy times indeed.
+Jeremy Tregler "Mouth breathing deadbeats."  Another civil, liberal intellectual.  Bring me some Hitler and "Teabilly" now.
No one had anproblem when New York City.was bailed out
+brenda dixon-hines   hey, good to see you again, yes, still fighting the good fight, slaying dragons and trip-trapping over troll bridges LOL    you drew no flies here Ma`am, they were buzzing around when I got here.   Thanks for always being a refreshing level headed addition to a discussion.

+Justin Boucher  - chemically castrate them and put them on an island?  could you please do us all a favor?   put your wee-willy away, wipe your piss off the Constitution and hang it back on the wall, will you please?   I bet you beat your chest and call yourself a patriot too...  smfh
+Ken Carlos I notice you're being exceptionally silent on the racist "Obamaphone" discussion tonight. I know it's an old thread from about a month ago, but have you found any carriers that give away smartphones as part of this program yet?
+Jeremy Tregler You are perfectly matched with Mikey.   You should pick out drapes with him.  Do you really think my tax dollars should pay for any cell phone for an able-bodied person?  
+Jeremy Tregler I think you should pay for all my hand sanitizer.  It keeps me productive and working to pay for all the liberal deadbeats and takers like you and Mikey.  Send me a check.
+Mike Mac No Mikey, I didn't have to take a break, I had to work.  I'm one of those small businesses you and Jeremy the Loving Liberal hate.   I had to take care of some accounting issues and do some work so that I can pay taxes to pay for Jeremy's free stuff.
This black bitch ask for BACON DUDE! So let's give the pig some!

Sent from my HTC One™ X, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

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+Jeremy Tregler You're right.  The Obamaphone program is perfect and just.   Let's up that.  Everyone gets a free iPad.
+Jeremy Tregler  it is interesting that the Red states have the least population densities, and generate the least tax revenues, and require the most federal government assistance to operate.  

Take the Tx initiative for secession, let them go, and let them give up the billions upon billions of federal  subsidies and tens of billions in federally sponsored business initiatives ..  heck, maybe if they just left, we could have a shot at balancing our budget.  lol
No just another black person thinking they deserve something just because of their skin color not because they work hard this is why the ZULU'S sold weak ones to the dutch, so as too keep Africa strong!

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Communists, leftist, and the ghetto hoes popping out those babies for more $$$$

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+Mike Mac +Jeremy Tregler Twin morons with no information.   Lovely.   You two need to get together and go down and scream profanities at people who pay your wages.   Gotta go, losers; work calls yet again (that means I have to work even if it's after five because i don't depend upon others for my lifestyle;  I am an EVIL businessman).  Enjoy your recession!
I'm really surprised a Fox News article would result in a thread filled with so much hate. Fox News is heading downhill fast.
+Ken Carlos I'm at work right now. No information? Your rants about "Obamaphone" are over a month old and you haven't provided a single link. You're a joke.
The zulu's said it best "we sell these weak fuc*s, to you! The dutch! To rid the mother land of the lowlife! Go take to the liberals they will care for them for ever!

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They do NOT want JOBS NEVER HAVE! THATS WHY THE ZULU'S sold their weak asses to the DUTCH!

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+Mike Mac +Jeremy Tregler One last thing:  if only YOU two dumbasses had to pay for all the programs you vote for, perhaps you'd think twice.  Let me guess, both of you have already looked at your bank accounts and dug reaaaaaaal deep to send Baconlady your money to help Detroit.  Right.  Nope, you will just vote for someone to take it from people like me and your boss because you have no balls to start your own business.    Adios again.  Late conference call time. 
+Ken Carlos  must have some more crack to sell, his pager went off.
he is obviously smoking something, never use what you sell they say.
You can learn one thing from him though, when you have no valid argument, start falsely claiming someone is a government leach , and look desperate, then run off claiming you have work to do.   Oh and btw, you wont be able to use your  iPad as a manpon
There are two kinds... Makers & Takers 
ASK THE BLACK COUNCIL MEMBER IN DETROIT! SHE WANTS SOME BACON! We black folks want are bacon! "Whitey"! We would never allow this ghetto shit

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+Stephen Tatasciore That must be a really fascinating black & white world you live in. It sounds so simple. There are also 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
No working hard but! You must be like the other ghetto dwellers hard work isn't a word you've learned yet!

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By the way, if your caller ID says 202-810-0509, it's Teabagger calling from DC, they called twice here today.
+Peter Sitterly More like a lot of justifiable anger at the attitude this woman displayed.

Do you endorse her demand for a payoff?

Or are you just waving a red herring...
+Ken Carlos   LOL  could you be more clueless?  I own and operate two business right now, and work full time in management in a fortune 500 company, I have spent my career in the military, then in management position fighting off unions, and fighting with unions for over 30 years.  And guess what?  I was a republican until the Patriot act was passed.  No more supporting the Right and their agenda of taking away our rights, and trying to tap into all our savings and retirement accounts for redistribution to the top.  you should have taken the red pill
+steven frickey something wrong with your phone, it says "smartphone" but obviously should say "dumbassesphone"
Detroit is a border city. As such, we absolutely cannot allow it to fail, or it will become a target for terrorists to use to sneak into our country.
New York City had assets of value, Detroit has nothing but trashed neighborhoods, overtaxed residents, and the cheapest urban landscape in America. I say take a bulldozed it and scrap it out and plant a forest. I pay for that. A perfect example of progressives in action. They left a fine example of governance. A real fine piece of art by the progressives.
+Maria Bauer-Rowe Nonsense, nobody who voted for him this time has any excuse for regret. They'd already had a chance to catch his act and bought the package anyway. 
And I want a cool water sandwich on a Sunday goto meet in' bun! Boow Boow Boow!
Ya! Right

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No more like a black person wanting more, for doing nothing, except the women they spears those legs for the bucks! And $$$ starts coming! For free

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Yes it is when the bullets fly you get educated fast!

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Just a minute. It is not my fault that you were irresponsible in how you spent the tax payers money. And it is not my fault that you made promises to workers for ludicrous benefits and now it has come time to pay up. So, why in hell do you expect me to now pay for it?
+Mike Mac
Thank you for keeping this post alive. With out you, this never would of made it into hot items. Now more than conservative media outlets can see the lvl of "need and demand" Obama supporters dish out. In fairness, not all supporters are "what are you going to do for me". But lots are!
Thanks again misdirected sir! 
It was totally irresponsible to go to two wars while dropping the effective tax rates. The Greatest Generation made real sacrifices during the World Wars - they paid their debts. War is not cheap. Who do you think should pay for Iraq and Afghanistan? We need to tighten our belts and make it right, but apparently Grover Norquist is the most important man in America, so that will never happen. ALL HAIL GROVER!
+Christopher Mylant   where have I said I was an Obama supporter? I am much more of a moderate then a liberal, some of my conservative values are far right of most of the the RINOs here.

Obama does not have to be right for someone to be wrong....
+Jeremy Tregler  Grover is watching his "empire" crumble before him, and there is nothing he can do. The GOP thumbed their nose at the teabilly's after the primaries, then the electorate kicked them in the crotch, now core conservative supporters are turning their backs on him....
I'll let you in on a big secret - I voted for Bush. After 9/11, I was very "America, fuck yeah!", git-er-done. But in his second term, all I saw were handouts to banks that were screwing Americans, and violations of our freedoms that would make the Red Chinese blush. We need to pull this country more to the center. I do not believe we can get ahead by kicking the poor and I certainly do not see how the "trickle down" theory has gotten this country anywhere. We spent a ton of money on war, and we need to pay for it, just like our grandparents did. We need to put people to work with a public works programs, just like our grandparents did. We need to build this country from the inside out, just like our grandparents did. The Democrats are the only ones talking like this, so that's who I'm supporting this time around. We need to try harder to emulate the hard work that our forefathers put in to make this country great, and I'm just not seeing it from anyone on the right.
NO WAY ! She out of her mind. Nothing is free. Enough with bailouts, obama gave it some and what ? still no jobs. In fact isn't there less jobs now. 
Someone get her a block of Government cheese. She looks famished. 
I disagree with Obama because...

Minority liberal response:

You must watch Fox!
Your a raciest!
Your mad!
You hate people!

So fun! :-)
I love it. This whole thread rails on the people of Detroit who "don't want to work" and my rant about our generation being unable to hold a candle to our grandparents in terms of taking care of our war debt responsibilities doesn't even get a single +1. This country is doomed if nobody wants to do the work to keep it up.

Sorry grandpa. All that hard work for nothing.
JT I don't see it from the left either. Give'um the sorry we are broke and that is the truth.
We can afford iPhones and flat screens, but we can't afford to pay a lousy 20% tax rate? I'm calling bullshit on that one.

I've travelled around West Africa, Central and South America. I've seen poverty. I don't want to hear about how broke we are. We can do better, but Grover Norquist says we can't, and that's a shame.
Hey JT no disrespect to grandpatents we all had them and they were wonderful people.
I like my iPhone. That was a choice I made. Paying taxes is a mandate.
Not a good example, but thanks for trying!

If you WANT to help out others, go for it. Don't make me help your cause, that's dictatorship.

Dumb average conservative!

The Greatest Generation were a bunch of communists then? Our grandparents went without buying new shoes for the war effort. They ran rubber and paper drives. They paid higher tax rates because they believed they should pay to cover their war spending.

What have we done?
Let cities and companies fail!!! Move out of the cities and live a simpler life !!! And cheaper
A bailout is not going to fix Detroit.
If a city can't balance its budget, why should it get a bailout?
Anything to attack Obama ;p
Gotta love the conservative propaganda show.
+Charles R. So you think we should go to war, and then not pay for it? Our grandparents paid for two of their own wars, and had a nice surplus and a middle class to show for it. What have we got? I guess our grandparents were communists. Be sure to tell them that this Christmas, they'll get a kick out of it.

And I'm not a doctor, so I have not taken the hippocratic oath, but I do try to live my life in such a way as to not cause harm. That would include not asking people to pay for a war that I would not pay for myself.
+Charles R. U sound so unpatriotic...u would rather c the country go to pieces..oh ya what an american u r...i dont think so ..m thankful that people like u r on the decline..ur blind as a bat..ur getting duped by rich maniacs who couldnt care less about u..wake up look at ur real enemy..the people who r killing our economy..selfish super rich control freaks..wake up for crying out loud...think hard
+Sal Gallo
Your last post proved exactly what is the problem.
Loud voice(Internet forum)
Zero content(feeling > fact)
Him vs I

Some may fall for it, but a few can see through the haze.

+Charles R. Top marginal tax rates on millionaires during the earlier part of the last century were close to 80%, that is true. And somehow, that generation was still able to still create millionaires. How did that happen? I am not in the position of a Rockefeller or a Carnegie, but certainly they paid close to those amounts and did OK for themselves. The rich today do not pay anywhere close to the rates paid during our most prolific years as a nation. We could certainly go back at least to the Reagan rates. Would you agree that Reagan had a good tax rate? He was our finest president after all.
Michigan is looking to vote the right to work into their state constitution. Once that happens it will be a good start. If I was Detroit I declare bankruptcy, tell the public unions were gonna rip up your contracts,. change your retirement options, and cut property taxes. That would allow the city to hire new employees, attract investments and create real jobs. It wouldn't cost as much as a bailout to the existing system.
JT get off grandparents issues. The one thing you fail to see, doing Reagon, Bush, Clinton eras most people were WORKING. Even doing war years people were working. Now whats the ranting about? The bottom line is NO JOBS not enough revenue getting back into gov, and out of control spending by gov is not helping. Your beating a dead horse issue Jeremy. No matter how high a tax rate is not going to work by itself.
+michael dela cruz Funny, I seem to recall the Great Depression happening at about the same time as the World Wars, and they still managed to pay their debts. Slackers.

And we've had more than a decade of the Bush tax cuts, which were supposed to create jobs. How has that been working out?
You're right - I have the nerve to reference the way our grandparents ran this country. They defeated Hitler, and it was a national effort. Everyone chipped in and did their part. We got Osama, and people bitch and whine about paying taxes. Our grandparents understood that wars cost money. We're a bunch of Sallys that want everything and don't want to pay for it. You tell me who the entitlement generation is.
+Margaret Leber That's fantastic. "Justifiable anger." Yes, that's it. Let the hate flow through you.

I endorse her right to free speech, but do I endorse her demand for a payoff? No. Clearly you haven't been reading. I specifically stated that a bail out would be a bad idea. I did this, however, without calling her poor or making rude comments about the woman. So, that's the kind of attitude I'm calling out.

+Charles R. It sounds like you don't know how tax brackets work. Ask your tax person. It's really quite effective.
Boy, this thing really wanders. If it wasn't for +Ken Carlos it wouldn't be worth all the work. Actually, those "fairy tales" were quite well written. And most of the people who don't appreciate that are the ones who claim belief in them. I'm going to do something fairly rare & agree w/ +Jeremy Tregler. I thought GW's 2nd term was abysmal. Man couldn't find his veto pen (actually it's a stamp) until well into his second term. "Obamaphones" are definitely not "Reagan" phones. The Gipper acquiesced to John McCain's selfish political call for govt payment of rural access through communication regulation. The phones began as used phones given to poor people with emergency access to 9-1-1. Of course, b/c it's a govt program, it grew like that blob in the 50's horror movie. I'm sorry Ms. Leber has excluded me from her circles or whatever they are. I miss her invective. It always leads to such interesting responses. 
Isn't soliciting the government votes for 'bacon' illegal? Is that what she implied? 
Fox News is fast becoming the ONLY news source in broadcasting that tells anything even remotely close to the truth. 
+Francis Moran Fox News got the election totally wrong. Other stations were saying it would be close - and the popular vote was - but Fox maintained that Romney would run away with it, and they were just wrong. That's not telling the truth, that's evidence that they are stuck inside a bubble. 
Or that they are human? A fair examination of the statistical evidence leading up to election day made such a call reasonable. Now they may well have been like those golfers who  while watching a long drive, lean to & fro attempting to "influence" the trajectory of the ball. But even Gallop - liberal leaning in my view - had Romney leading. Fox's mistake was veering from the "close" narrative. I do not watch Fox news' personality shows. Can't stand zerO'Reilly. Not a fan of Van Susteran or Hannity. Send Geraldo to Afghanistan to cover Taliban for all I care. But for example "Special Report w/ Bret Baier" is good. So is Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace. They are certainly no more biased than David Gregory on "Meet the Press" or Bob Scheiffer on "Face the Nation". And I NEVER watch PBS or especially MSNothingButCrap. Just because Fox does stories adversely affecting Obama & his administration doesn't make them "Faux". If that were the case, then all the other networks that hammered GWBush for eight years would be at leased as biased and perhaps more so. 
+Jeremy Tregler you have been on this thread longer than most, you know who the entitlement refers to its not the greatest generation. They did not sacrifice so that loosers could nock up a girl and leave her with a baby and no way to support either. Some make it regardless others just fail to try. 
But do NOT run into HER. Bulldozers are expensive
Why are so many on the right so angry? Most of the posts in this thread are pretty belligerent, not to mention ignorant. How do you know if your statement is ignorant? Well, its simple... Did you use the term "Obama phone"? Why does using that term make it an ignorant statement? Because Obama created no such program. Who did? Clinton...then your hero Bush expanded it to its current level. Obama had no hand in the program. Do a little fact checking before you blindly make a post on such a topic. Its OK to not believe everything you here Fox or Limbaugh tell you.
Jon Dye
It's also okay to believe something when it's true.
Jon Dye
I never said it was?
And most of what you hear Fox and Limbaugh say isnt true...barely a hint of it.

But the main point is how ignorant some of these posts are. Note i said the posts are ignorant, not the posters. So if anyone connects those dots, you do so on your own. You also can see a trend of people using rude monickers for the president. Never happened this much in the past with any other president. Finally, its tragic to see how rude some people on the right are. Rather than having a civil debate, many choose to make personal and hateful attacks. Apparently you can be an adult without acting like one.
Is this a true statement or just a question?
Jon Dye
"never happened in the past"

Mustve never seen anybody hate on GWB.

Must have been a kid.

This is the world of politics not kindergarten, learn to live with it.
+Kahil Nettleton Unfortunately, the vitriol is probably a side effect of losing an election. Most get over it in a day or two. Many, however, are like Raiders fans and just never let go of the rage. Ever. It will only get worse in 2014, when a bunch of Republicans are booted from Congress for ignoring the majority of the people they are supposed to be representing. It will get even worse in 2016 when the Republicans lose another election, even when they try to reinvent themselves as hipster MTV-watching and immigrant loving tree-huggers. It's a fascinating new era we live in. Up is down. Black is white. The GOP are becoming the liberals.
And there it is... lol... so how many names was bush called where is name was played with to become an insult? Exactly.... no one said politics wasnt harsh, but name calling? Really? Grow up people. And I'm know what they say about those who make assumptions right?
Jon Dye
No i don't. You know what I say about assumptions? EVERYBODY MAKES THEM.

You are, I assume, the kind of person who believes the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. 


What were you saying about people who make assumptions again?
+Jon Dye Nobody hated on GWB by pointing out that he's white or must be from Britain or is probably secretly a Christian. I also don't recall anyone asking Bush to prove he was born in the U.S.
Jon Dye
They hated on GWB equating him to Hitler and the Nazis. it goes way beyond name calling.
Jon Dye
it's like saying "hey, we don't like you, let's think of the worst person in the world and say how much you're like him"
Wow....really? That's the best you've got? An off topic childish post? Try to stay on topic.
Jon Dye
the only thing off-topic here is your bad attitude.
Jon Dye
You were saying something about people who make assumptions? let's hear it, let's watch you insert your foot into your own mouth.
+Jon Dye Oh, c'mon. Everybody gets compared to Hitler or the Nazis eventually. It's Godwin's law. In fact, I have seen countless posters of a Hitler mustache drawn on Obama. Any type of insult that is equally thrown at nearly all sitting Presidents doesn't really count, because it events out.
Jon Dye
and this guy is in this thread, complaining about people calling Obama a bad name? get real with it
Like no one on the right has ever equated Obama with Hitler? And what little Bush got was nowhere near on par with what Obama has received.
Jon Dye
+Kahil Nettleton You can go fuck yourself. You did not even read what I wrote. Welcome to my block list.
Jon Dye
Yes, you better check yourself.
+Jon Dye You misunderstand me. The point is, although every President gets made fun of and gets called names, it's pretty obvious that the amount of generic name-calling playground hatred towards Obama is magnitudes greater than that thrown at any recent POTUS before him.

This is probably why Republicans are being viewed (probably unfairly) as spoiled hatemongers. When people see the severe level of hatred leveled at Obama when compared to the more timid joking towards Bush, it makes people naturally assume that Republicans are just bullies. However, when people compare what's being thrown at Obama to Clinton, it results in head-scratching. If it's just because he's a liberal or a Democrat, why is there so much more hatred for Obama? Could you see how this can lead to feelings that it may be a racial hatred?

Even if it's not, it gets painted that way when there is such an uneven level of vitriol being spewed at the first (half) black POTUS. To prevent this type of view from being cemented in the history books, it might do the GOP some good to just take a chill pill, relax, and focus more on the issues and less on the elementary school teasing.
Jon Dye
There is no greater magnitude of hatred toward this president than any other.

The nation is basically 50/50 or we wouldn't keep going back and forth between republican and democrat.

that means every president has basically 50% of the people who love/hate them
huh?  lol...  All his posts are gone...must of missed something?
Jon Dye
for the stupidest of reasons*
+Jon Dye I'm not talking about a count of hatred, but a level of hatred shown per capita.

For instance, maybe there were some people who compared Bush to Hitler. However, this was done around the water cooler. I never saw tables set up in front of post offices with posters of Bush with a Hitler mustache, with people manning those tables and yelling at people who walked by. I never saw this with Bush. Ever.

I saw this every few weeks with Obama, though. And this was in California, which is generally a blue state. So, even if the number of Republicans hasn't increased or has decreased slightly, the level of harshness coming from each Republican has multiplied immensely.
Yeah, this 1950's mentality of the republicans in power needs to change.  Just look at their committee picks.  All of them are white males....except for one woman.  What position did she get in the House?  The "House Wife".  As in she is basically in charge of the cafeteria, etc.
Jon Dye
I'm sorry, but the anti-bush thing played out on national news. You're absolutely wrong about that.
Jon Dye
just google anti-bush

GWB has a wikipedia entry dedicated to "the public image of George W. Bush"
+Jon Dye Saturday Night Live is hardly national news. :D

If you can't see the difference, I can't help you. It really is a perspective thing. If the Republicans can't see why they lost the election, then they will continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. I'm not saying there wasn't plenty of hatred for Bush, even in the media. However, it was tame compared to the hatred being shown for Obama.

While people called Bush a warmonger, they call Obama a Muslim. One is describing Bush's policies, the other is making a blanket statement about one's religious beliefs. If you can't see how these two  attacks are grossly different, then you've got rose colored glasses on.

The fact that people compared Bush to Hitler or the antichrist is barely worth mentioning. The same has been done against Obama, Clinton, Reagan, Gore, etc... Those are the generic insults that get thrown at every POTUS or a running candidate. So, it's pretty easy to dismiss these because the insults have no weight. However, when you look at the level of deep questioning of Obama's religion, his citizenship, etc... it just goes above and beyond what's happened with any recent president. The exception might be Clinton (with the Lewinsky scandal), but Clinton asked for it by doing something stupid. When people question Obama's birth, for instance, that's just a low blow.

That's the kind of ridiculousness I'm talking about. The same names all Presidents have to deal with? That's for SNL. It's hardly worth repeating, even if the national news joins in on the fun. The questioning about one's background, eligibility to be president, or jokes pertaining to skin color? That's something that only seems to be thrown at Obama.

Who knows. Maybe it was just bad timing. Maybe it's just a sign of the times. Maybe it has nothing to do with Obama and no matter who was going to become president in 2008 was going to have this new elevated level of hatred thrown at them. If that's the case, it's pretty unfortunate timing for Obama. However, until another 2 or 3 presidents have come and gone, we won't know for sure whether or not this is a generic trend, or whether it is Obama-specific. In the meantime, the elevation of hatred is definitely getting noticed and the Republicans are on the decline as a result. It's almost as sad to watch as the imminent decline of Apple now that Steve Jobs is gone.
Jon Dye
ahem, allow me to point to a link from the wikipedia page I mentioned then. one moment
Jon Dye
NEWS. How can people seriously not remember any of this?
Jon Dye
Nevermind, muting this post because I don't care. 
I've seen the very poster of Bush in a Hitler get up. Nowhere near California though. Conservatives are angry with Obama supporters more than him based on his record, race, religion are irrelevant.
As the primary was headed, conservatives were ready for Herman Cain b4 scandal bought him down.
Brought not bought 
+Jon Dye I never once said people didn't make fun of Bush. I guess the difference was what was being attacked. It's relevant to question the POTUS' intelligence because it plays a role in how well he does his job. Questioning a POTUS' religion has no bearing how well he does his job.

In fact, if you were to look at it from a point of view of a job interview... any of the jokes lobbed at Bush pertained to things that are relevant for job-qualification. When you look at the jokes lobbed at Obama, however, these mostly fell under the lines of race, color, religion, creed, national origin, etc... All of the things that have no bearing on one's ability to do a job.
His record huh?  Yeah, because the House and Senate republicans have had such a great record?  Case in point.  On the House side, you have republicans laughing at the President's proposal rather than engaging in bipartisan, mature talks.  You have them willing to not pass a budget in order to get tax cuts for the top 2%.  They spent most of this past session trying repeatedly to repeal Obamacare and failing to do so.  What did they find time to vote on?  Not the found time to vote on abortion and stupid things like reaffirming the word "God" in the phrase "In God We Trust".  Basically just wasting time.

On the Senate side, you have the republicans using a record number of filibusters to obstruct any kind of progress.  386+ in a single session of congress.  More than in the entire history of the rule combined.  Now they are crying becamse dems want to change the rule so that if one of them wants to filibuster, they have to stand up and do so publicly rather than cowardly doing so in silence.  Then there was the treaty vote yesterday for disabilities.  Shameful...

But of never hear people say that Obama is an Socialist Atheist Muslim.  You never hear them make veiled racist remarks.  *rolls eyes*
TYPICAL what else would you expect from a black city 
no just the reality of the situation look at the rust belt and Africa there is no argument , the facts speak for themselves
what?  are you somehow trying to justify your racist comment?  wow...
Ok, so I read what I could since my last post. Wow. Detroit is nothing more than a northern Newark. Both cities are worthless these days. One gets tired of handing out entitlements to people who don't deserve them. Simple. I worked as a cable tv installer in the projects - in NC at the time, you could get all the channels paid for by the state. It made me sick to see people who only lifted their ass to fart get the same expensive packages as hard working folks. Finally the state killed that. Stop coddling Detroit, you might find it a lil cheaper to run the city. 
How the hell does a city go bankrupt? This blame Obama b.s. is getting old. The economy was fucked long before Obama took office. Every political party likes to point fingers. No matter how many yrs a president serves, it's still not enough time to save every friggin cause. I voted for Obama. I live on a reservation. You wnt hear Native Americans crying around save us! Lots of things need to be done to improve life on reservations for most tribes out there. There's yet to be a president, white or black, that hasn't done jackshit for tribes in the US. All US presidents are nothing but puppets on a string. Detroit needs help..hell get in line behind the Native Americans pho sure still waiting for the US to follow thru on their treaties. So suck it up Detroit! 
+Francis Moran   I stand corrected, instead of "ReaganPhones" they should maybe be called "McCainPhones", but to avoid any confusion and misunderstanding, maybe "GOPPhones" or "RepublicanPhones" are more appropriate.

But at any rate, they are definitely not "ObamaPhones"
and any reference to them as such is pure and simple bullshit
what race was responsible for running out the businesses and whites , now they want to act like begging dogs
Obama supporters showing their colors.  Government dependents and chicago politics. 
What is their Republican governor doing? Last I checked, Detroit is Rick Snyder's problem.
I don't like Fox News in the first place, but I decided to take a look at this article just to keep myself informed. I admit that I know nothing of Detroit politics.
I read the article after reading the headline, only to think that the quote doesn't necessarily imply what the article is saying. So I watched the video. It's nothing but a short segment of what was said. not enough to give any context.

So, maybe she was asking for a bail out for Detroit. Maybe she wasn't talking about that at all. There simply isn't enough information provided by the article for Fox News to make the claims they have made.

This is sensationalist "journalism" at its worst. Fox News, I gave you a chance and you blew it.
+brenda dixon-hines   not really  lol  but I like them to think that so they don't give up the good fight in them too :)  It is difficult in these parts to get a good conversation going without falsely being branded a commie liberal or worse.

The day we all quit expressing our opinions is the day we all  actually need to fear.
it's so funny , these Obama zombies, poor Obama they're talking bad about him. doesn't even come close to how bad Bush was treated. this link has nothing to do with how the presidents were treated. this is about a principal and mentality that is coming from the Democratic Party, the real name should be the Socialist Party of America
+hector navarrete   Obama has gotten more un-justified hate from Right then The Shrub ever got from the Left.  The main difference is, Bush was a fuck-up.  and everything he got he earned.  We are still paying for his bad judgment, and will be for generations.  In other countries, those generations are not that fortunate, his bad decisions and policies caused them to be killed, tens of thousands of people.    Bush has pending wear crimes charges against him.  His administration was fortunate that Obama pressed his "Forward" agenda and did not allow his justice department to go back and hold them accountable, he effectively pardoned them.

Your attempting compare apples to vintage cars.  Give it up. It would be comical if it was funny.
+hector navarrete Yeah, because while Bush was President you saw countless racists comments and rallies.  You saw lots of people hanging him in effigy.  You saw lots of people claiming he wasn't even a citizen.  You saw lots of people calling him an "Atheist Muslim".  You saw several Bush campaign headquarters shot at.

None of that happened to Bush.  But hey, Bush only started two wars and caused the near collapse of the economy...and that is just a-ok.
so it must be true ignorance is bliss. the fact that you would make so many miss statements. you're so drunk off to Kool Aid you can't even see what's coming down the pike. Obama has not been vilified 1/ 16th of what Bush was vilified. remind me when was the last time Bush was called our Lord and Savior? that's how much you clowns have lost your mind. Bush went and requested authorization for everything he did. when did Obama get permission to bomb Libya? you can sit here and play ignorant. does it mean everyone's going to go along with it. and again what do the president have to do with this thread? this is about the Neo Marxist mentality holding no 1 accountable for their actions, Detroit needs to go bankrupt
If Detroit goes bankrupt, that would prove that the Republican governor of Michigan is a failure.
First, it would really help if you remembered the basic spelling and grammar from grade school.

Next, enough with the lil snide, personal attacks.  Its getting old.  When you resort to that, any point you may have is instantly nullified and holds very little weight.  Not of forget the fact that its just plain immature.

Finally.  Get your facts straight.  Bush had to get permission to send troops in.  Obama sent in no troops and it was part of an international, UN backed mission.

Bush was only vilified for what he did that was terrible, and rightfully so.  Things like starting two prolonged, unpaid and unjustified wars.  Things like wrecking the economy.  You conveniently failed to point out any groups of incidents that were against Bush that were on par with what Obama has seen.
+Jeremy Tregler Good point.  The governor is at fault there.  It is his administration that is closing down schools.  It is his administration that is appointing city administrator with dictator like powers to go in and run cities into the ground.  That is what the councilwoman is asking for from Obama and his administration.  Not handouts or phones, etc.
+hector navarrete  "Lord and Savior"?  I have heard that a lot.... from the Right.  Someone says something one time, and the Right starts parroting it, and all of a sudden, "everyone is saying it"   LOL

Same thing with the "Obama phone" statement, one person says it, then "everyone" is talking about it... Everyone on the Right and FOX

The decisions Bush made were Bush's decisions. Period.
He owns the fuck-ups.  The GOP owns the fuck-ups.
That is recorded, documented history, how you feel does not change that.
+Jeremy Tregler The ObamaPhone Avenger's boss is paying for him to spout off online yet again.   Another productive left wing employee gettin his fer free.   Meanwhile self-described tycoon +Mike Mac apparently has found businesses he can own and run without paying attention to them as he continually "enlightens" us on why we should all be on the govt teat.   Enjoy your free money for no work, Mr. Avenger!  Mikey:  tell us your secret;  are you a Scentsy rep?   Do you own a tanning salon?  Tell me, please.  I'm tired of the 15 hour days imposed my my traditional small business.
+Ken Carlos What?  Not one point you made in your post made any sense whatsoever.  Simply put, it was incoherent rambling.
+Ken Carlos if you are tired of your 15-hr day a job you should do something to improve your situation and stop expecting the government to solve your problems.  whine whine whine
+Ken Carlos And yet, here you are. Do your clients know you waste as much time here as you do, rather than doing whatever it is you do for your "small business?"
First, use some basic punctuation.  Next, its "maybe", not "may be".  Finally, enough with this "Kenyan" crap because its lame.

Maybe try being civil rather than jumping online to make hate filled jabs.  Again...apparently you can be an adult without acting like one.
+luc rising   you do know that most of those referencing him as any type of "messiah" are those on the Right slinging hate ?  I would never reference him or anyone as a messiah, nor do I know anyone from the left that ever has....
The only person I've heard refer to President Obama as the messiah or "the anointed one" is Sean Hannity. It would seem he's created the meme. Now, I know a lot of people that thank God he is our president, but I've not seen anyone actually call the president "God." Perhaps someone here might have a link, or some other kind of proof? I know this crowd isn't real big on "evidence" or "facts."
+Mike Mac just on Q go ahead and come out with another false premise, "news reporters" with tingling feeling up their legs, artist painting with halos. you're right it's only 1 person ! you choose to be ignorant of the fact, which there are many more of. bush's owns all his screw ups, in the same way to city of Detroit owns there's !
First of all...You can blame Foxx.  :)

Next, he's an actor and one person.  By linking to an article on a single celebrity hardly proves the point.  Since when did the words of a single celebrity hold any weight?  Gonna have to do better than that.  Apparently if the road warrior says it, it must be so.  *rolls eyes*
I don't think this has anything to do with a choice of people of money.  I think it's more about people SPENDING TOO MUCH MONEY on each and every thing.

This is government waste; just of a city government.  A city earns money from taxes. It can coax more business to happen, but must always be ready to cut know....the way WE DO when we can't afford gas or food anymore because of over-regulation.

If there's a lesson to take away from the American experiment, it's that mechanisms must be put in place to stop infinite spending.
+hector navarrete please, before hitting the submit button, ask yourself if what you are about to post makes any sense whatsoever.  Just sayin...
+Mike Potratz Thanks Mike! I haven't seen anyone call Obama that before, and I've seen Obama called many, many things.
Take a look at the states and counties that are in the black and the ones that are in the red. Then ask yourself, should joe tax payer fund a bailout of those failing communities or should those communities follow the example set by those who are creating jobs. Also take a look at who is in charge of the states that are successful and the ones that are in charge of the states that are failing. I am sure California can learn from Texas..
+Bert Sparacino This has nothing to do with the way the people in Detroit run the city.  It has to do with the way the Governor isn't doing his job.  Detroit, and Michigan in general, is a unique case.  The Republican governor keeps appointing people to "manage" the city with near dictator like power.  They come in and the elected officials there lose any say.  Now, on paper it sounds good because these cities aren't doing so great.  The reality is that they come in and close schools, sell public and city property to corporations (some of which are foreign in origin) and then what happens?  The city doesn't improve at all and in many cases gets worse.  It isn't working and it isn't Detroit or its people to blame.  They are asking Obama to bail them out...not in the sense that they just want free handouts.  They want to be free from the corrupt management many areas of the state are under.  It was a good idea, but terrible in reality.
+Kahil Nettleton the amount of ignorance you spout is mind blowing, remind me how many movies were made about killing Obama again?
+hector navarrete "Death of a President" was panned almost as bad as "2016: Obama's America." A bad movie is not proof of anything other than how much time people seem to have on their hands to make bad movies.
Come on hector, you're gonna have to do better than that.
+Kahil Nettleton Bush got permission for troops an engagement, I love the way you side step the issue, who cares if it was you went back? Bush's actions were UN backed but he followed the Constitution and got permission from Congress. so you're Obama is not required to go to Congress? Bush wrecked the economy, calling that statement ignorant, is not a personal attack it's a factual statement. the fact that you would make that statement shows your ignorance of economics and what did caused the crash. again fact ! so can vilify bush but not Obama? so are you giving grammar classes as well as spelling classes ? giving your comments you should focus on a little bit of truth, since it's something you so lack !
+Jeremy Tregler so we should blame the governors for how badly a city is run? do you people come up with this on your own? they've had a democratic Mayors since 1962, since the governor doesn't negotiate for the city, yeah let's blame the governors. genius
+hector navarrete You just proved my point there bud.  Bush needed permission to send in troops.  Obama didn't send in any troops.  Its funny how many on the right seem to think that Obama is just out there breaking the law and constitution.

And yes, you're right!  Bush wrecked the economy and that is a factual statement, thanks for agreeing.  The economy tanked long before Obama stepped foot into the Oval Office.

All you have done, with poor spelling and grammar mind you, is prove my points.  So thanks!
+hector navarrete Do you not know how Michigan is run?  The republican governor appoints city managers to run some of the cities.  When that happens, all elected officials (dem and rep alike) no longer have any power.

Wow...please, just fact check some, it won't hurt.
Cut taxes, provide incentives to antrepanuers, break the strangle hold unions have on job growth and curb over regulation. That's a start. 
+luc rising Wow...just wow...  Seriously, try acting like an adult.  You might like it!  :)

That's funny that you say Clinton wrecked the economy.  Hrmmm...  Didn't the rich do extremely well with his higher tax rates?  Didn't the gov't have a surplus under him?  Interesting huh.
+Kahil Nettleton Obama needed permission to, the difference is he did not get it, and Kool Aid drinkers like yourself overlook it. Obama does break the law and does defy the Constitution. and again zombie bush did not ruin the economy no matter how many times you say it, it doesn't make it true.
+Bert Sparacino Cutting taxes isn't going to do anything.  Taxes are already at a low compared to the past.  The gov't makes it's money off of taxes.  Raising the taxes on the top 2% isn't going to hurt them.  They would still get the lower tax rates for the first $250k of income just like everyone else.  Anything over that they are only paying a few percentage points more...and they can more than afford to do that.  Keep in mind...the Bush tax cuts didn't create a single job.

Deregulation got us into this mess in the first place.
+hector navarrete Obama did not need permission to join an international, no troops on ground effort.  That has been proven and explained to ad nauseum by both the left and the right.  So get over it already.

Now excuse me, I have some delicious Koolaid to drink.  :)
Clinton did a great job working with Republicans and did not care where good ideas came from. What Clinton did do though was got mortgage companies and lenders to reduce the credit criteria allowing more Americans to buy homes. Though in theory it sounded good but he did not forsee what could and did happen to the housing market. Also a lot of loans where given out under his presidency that never got paid back hence the dot com bubble popped.
Don't lose hope Detroit maybe RoboCop can save you!!
+Kahil Nettleton are you this is clueless on everything? so the city manager is running everything? it's funny how the City Council is going to vote on a budget from the mayor , cutting 2566 jobs, right now Detroit have a consistent agreement how to fix their fiscal problem, if not then the State could a point on an emergency manager to run the city, and strip the council and the mayor of the authority to impose a budget. save your nonsense and your ignorance for your zombie friends
+hector navarrete I don't know what you are so angry about.  All you keep doing is agreeing with me and proving my point.

Lil tip.  In any debate, if you want to prove your point, don't attack the opposition with hateful and personal attacks.  You make yourself look bad and any point you may have is lost in the vitriol.  Oh, and of course, intelligent, well written/spoken responses tend to help as well.

Thanks for playing.  :)
+Kahil Nettleton you come up with the craziest crap, a majority of legal scholars including Democrat congressman, all said Obama did not have the right to launch attacks without congressional approval, you really need to quit making things up as you go, and maybe lay off of the Kool Aid you sound drunk
+hector navarrete Is the "Koolaid" line the best you've got?  Come least put some effort into an insult.

You obviously don't know that a lot of people in Congress know very little about the law and Constitution.  Its kinda like how republicans will put bigoted creationists in charge of science committees.

Oh, and if you really think Obama did something illegal, then bring him up on charges.  Wait...what's that?  No one has or will?  hrmmm....dang...  :)
Common sense is not so common anymore. Blind faith in politics and your social science professor has rendered you completely void of any common sense.
+luc rising  yes, that was a big factor, but everyone puts all the blame on Fanny and Freddy and the CRA, but lets not forget a few huge contributors.

1.  fractional banking and home flipping during a housing bubble. Through cascading loans the actual cash to support these serial loans was no where near their cash value. dilution of the cash to credit pool. (this was not the CRA, this was totally banker and investor greed driven)

2. Americans applying and accepting loans there was obviously no way they could ever afford to make the payments and balloon payments on. Voluntary over-extension of credit on a massive scale.

3. CDO's - Collateralized Debt Obligations - the Russian Roulette of the mortgage security industry , non-regulated gambling.

It is easy to demonize the CRA when its intent was good, but at the end of the day, a combination of the greed in the banking industry and  Americans intentionally overextending their credit is actually the root cause.

it is kind of ironic in reflection how most of the crash exploded from within the middle class, and now we are screaming to not raise their taxes, I do admit that.
+Kahil Nettleton we can agree on 1 thing, Congress does not have the brightest people, but the fact that you cherry picked my comment and left out the law scholars constitutional scholars. tells me everything I need to know. again if you feel attacked get over yourself in about you. oh you mean going running to the cartels to terrorist in Libya in Syria I'm not unconstitutional. I'll try to killing of Americans not unconstitutional. dude your lack of knowledge is just, there is no point in you trying to make a point.
+hector navarrete Again, if you are going to make personal attacks and try to have a point, at least do so intelligently rather than typing incoherent babel.  If someone has to read your post two or three times just to get what you said, then its a bad post.

Cherry picked nothing.  Despite people on the left and right claiming it was unconstitutional, they were proven wrong.  Notice how no one in the media is still talking about that?  There's a reason.  Notice how he hasn't been brought up on charges?  There's a reason.

So now you are trying to say that he is running cartels in Libya and Syria?  So now you are saying that he is killing Americans?  And you say I have a lack of knowledge.  Come on...  You're gonna have to do better than making ignorant, incoherent, hate filled posts bud.
Kahil you really are a self absorbed egotist. Who are you to criticise anyone! Get off your soap box, you contribute nothing and have nothing to offer in the way of ideas or solutions. Just like the rest of the knuckleheads who disregard facts for ideology.
+Bert Sparacino What?  Awww...look folks...another person on the right who apparently can only make personal attacks.

What facts have been disregarded in lieu of ideology?
You have no idea what politics are. Furthermore I made that statement in response to your high and mighty critique of another posters opinion based on grammer . 
Excise me "my political standing". My favorite Presidents are Truman,Kennedy and Reagan so go figure.
+Bert Sparacino And who are you to judge another on politics?  lol...  I was simply pointing out the obvious.  Its sad when the only way someone can debate is to call the other person names.  The point about grammar and spelling just goes to prove that we need to improve education in this country.  Most of his posts literally made zero sense....come on.  Its pretty bad when someone has to read your post several times to try to figure out what was trying to be said.
again I'm sorry I'm not taking the time how to spell check. why did the media not pick it up? again ignorance is bliss. why didn't they pick up the gun running to the Mexican cartels? why are they not on the gun running in Syria and Libya? or the fact that the gun running is why the Ambassador was murdered? if you call fact hate, I must be filled with hate, and you are filled with love, too bad you don't have any fact
+hector navarrete Seriously...  The Mexican Cartel scandal thing was a plan started under the Bush administration.  Its not as though it was magically thought up and enacted shortly after Obama got into office.  The whole plan was nearly a decade in the making.

Gun running in Libya and Syria?  Come on...  That isn't why the ambassador was murdered.

Your hate has nothing to do with facts of any kind.  Your hate is gleamed from your personal attacks.  If you can't have a civil debate where you don't call the opposition names, then why bother?

Still waiting for you to present a fact though.  And you plus oned your own post?  lol...
This thread sounds like another day in Congress.
These things make me wonder if people know where money comes from. Hey Mr. Obama bail us out, don't worry you can always print more money. 
This has nothing to do with printing money.  Any help that would be given would done so in the form of credit with interest.
+Jeremy Tregler Sorry I wasn't here to receive all the love but you know, I have a job.  And the difference between me blogging on company time and you doing it is that I am self-employed.  The only one I am ripping off is myself because if I don't work, I don't get paid.  You, on the other hand, are working on company time and thus stealing from the people who pay your wages.  And it looks like you've been on all day.  +Mike Mac I didn't ask anyone, especially the govt to help. I just want freeloading folks like you, J.T. and Baconlady Bailout to pay for your own "good deeds."  Leave me out of it.  +Kahil Nettleton I don't know who the hell you are but thanks for offering up your worthless observations.  Now back to work.  Someone quick:  call me stupid/Teabilly/Nazi/Hater/American Taliban.  Then JT and punch the clock, pick up his unearned wages and go home.  
+Kahil Nettleton as usual you think if you make something up and you say it it's true. Not ! what you're trying to conflate is the bush's gun sting wide receiver. which begins in early 2006 too late 2007 and no guns were allowed to cross the border. fast and furious pecan in fall 2009 and ended December 2010 after some other guns were found at border agent Brian Terry's murder scene. the fact that you are clueless and half to say thing that are not true, hoping someone will believe you. I would not expect you to know about Syria or Libya is not a surprise, you don't even understand fast and furious.
why was a and ambassador in benghazi ? not at the Embassy Tripoli ?
+hector navarrete enough with the name calling and personal attacks, its immature.

And no, do your fact checking and re-read what I said.  The plan may have went live under Obama, but it was planned under Bush.  Get the difference bud?

Seems like you are letting your anger get the best of you and you are now just incoherently without fact checking or backing up your claims.

All you have done is make personal attacks and equate Obama to some cartel kingpin.
Let the liberals and progressives in that run-down slum of a city get what they deserve for mismanaging the city's budget. The same people asking for a bailout are the same ones that caused the problem. Expose the corrupt Detroit Politicians and maybe, just maybe, a few of the remaining citizens will understand that liberalism FAILS wherever it's tried.
+Josh Bryant Liberalism has nothing to do with this.  Don't forget that that state is run by a conservative.  This isn't a party based issue and it isn't just a Detroit issue.  This is a state wide problem.
+Kahil Nettleton so by you saying enough with the personal attacks, is that working with your distraction? I know it's hard for you to understand fundamental facts. before I can stop with the name calling I actually have to call you a name first. so I can only assume you're trying to distract from the points. like usual he let your emotions get in the way of reality. you guys are just amazing. try sticking to the facts. I checked in the fall of 2009 Obama was president not bush, again facts are the program started in 2009 in the fall. the only thing you have said stop with the name calling stop with the personal attacks, everything you say is wrong everything I say is right. try 1 simple thing give me a fact. I understand you don't have facts just your blabber, so it makes it hard for you to make your point. try. not trying to make Obama a king pin. just giving you the facts you can up with the name.
+Kahil Nettleton Detroit problems has nothing to do with the state. the state is on pace to put 130,000,000 dollars into the rainy day fun this year. where's Detroit rainy day fund? you don't even live in reality
+hector navarrete Since the "Fast & Furious" controversy erupted (which was during Obama's presidency), it emerged that Arizona-based A.T.F. agents had used similar tactics — and lost track of weapons — in three previous gun-smuggling investigations during the Bush administration.

In other words, this had just been the ATF's status quo for some time. So, if you think it's something that should never have been done, at least spread the blame to all presidents it was done under instead of conveniently singling one out. Just because you only know the name of one of at least four operations doesn't mean that it's the only one that ever took place.
Hector... still acting like a child here? I see you're going with the "I'm right and you're wrong" approach despite the facts? Interesting...but expected...

Time to grow up and act like an adult. You are wrong here, plain and simple. The facts can be easily found with a simple google search bud.

But, I'm done arguing with a grown ass man who's acting like a child. Its pretty bad when I can have a more civil and mature debate with a child over cookies. Time to move on.
+Peter Sitterly running a similar program is not running that program. Bush's program did not allowed guns to go over the border. so please save it ! if it started under Bush and those were his guidelines, that would be 1 thing, but sorry you don't get to start a program under Obama with his people in place then blame someone else
+Kahil Nettleton you are such a joke, I give you facts. you say it ain't true just because. who's the child, Son ! and I don't call you son because your bright.
+hector navarrete What you said is blatantly false. Operation Wide Receiver, under Bush, did allow guns to go over the border into Mexico. That's a fact.
+Peter Sitterly we wll try one last time for the slow people. according to the judiciary committee including Democrat Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer wide receiver was not a gun walking operation, it was a controlled delivery, as soon as a transfer is made suspects are arrested. this was done with the knowledge of the Mexican government. the fast and furious operation, Mexican government was not advised suspects were not arrested, suspect how to cross the border with the weapons. again I know you hate facts. along with +Kahil Nettleton , you're only problem is this is all documented. so keep saying its not true but it's in the Congressional records
Obama money?

First of all, the Bush tax cuts were meant to expire as designed by the Bush administration.  By your logic doing that is attacking success.  Rather than do that Obama wants to extend those tax cuts for ALL Americans for the first $250k of income.  After that amount the tax rate goes up by only a few percentage points to a level that is still lower than they would be if they tax cuts simply expired.  Still lower than tax rates for the rich in the past.
+hector navarrete You said, "Bush's program did not allowed [sic] guns to go over the border." I'm simply saying you're wrong. That's a fact. Bush's program did allow guns to go over the border. Maybe it wasn't a gun walking operation, but guns did cross the border. The reason is because they lost track of many of the guns under Operation Wide Receiver. You're cherry-picking your facts and conveniently ignoring the rest of the details.
+john acker Maybe the fact that you wouldn't be willing to try is why you don't make $250k per year. You do know that the higher tax rates only apply to the amount made in excess of $250k/yr and wouldn't touch an additional penny of the first $250k/yr, right? That's how it works.
+Peter Sitterly I understand you don't like facts ! but again I will try 1 last time and I will speak slowly for you ! the investigation as well as a committee hearings determined no guns under wide receiver crossed the border. those are the facts. so go ahead and make up your own facts. but other than left wing nuts, where is your source from your made up a facts?
+Kahil Nettleton why are you still posting? you haven't a clue ! there is no such thing as a tax cut ! there are only tax rates, and they go up and they go down. all socialists and neo Marxist love to tax success taking someone else's work by force. why should someone making 250 K or more pay a different tax rate in you and I ? this is a progressive tax code to punish your enemies. hence the reason our founding fathers were against it. but even former communist countries like the USSR now Russia opted to stay away from a progressive tax and went to a flat tax. well their revenue intake is gone up every year, we continue a short fall. simple math
+Peter Sitterly where did the government get the us authority to punish working Americans? the harder you work or when you take risk with your hard earned money, why should the government take more? do you use more government services at 250 K then at 30k ? explain to me how that make sense, dividing us into classes?
+hector navarrete the rich are already paying less than you and I with the current tax code.  wow...

the founding fathers were against taxation without representation....not taxes period.  learn your history bud.  In case you haven't figured it out, you are represented by those you elect.'re grasping at straws.  Its clear you don't know too much about politics, let alone history.
+john acker You clearly don't know how it works.  If he were to help Detroit out, it wouldn't simply be a check written to them.  It would in the form of credit to be paid back by a certain time with interest and with high regulation.  But hey, nice try at distorting the facts.
+Kahil Nettleton the only guy I know it is proven wrong repeatedly can still trying to pretend you know something, talking about lack of knowledge you can't tell the difference between income and wealth, the wealthy pay the higher income tax rate we do. where do you get your history from bud? they were about equal taxation that's what they wanted. not your neo Marxist progressive tax code. you might want to read up a little bit on history. I don't know why you would respond you have no clue of what you speak. I don't know politics or history that's why I keep making you look foolish.
+john acker I'm just a supporter of logic and reason. As soon as the GOP can show some of either, I will be all for it. You're right, spending is out of control. So let's start cutting a bunch of it. Maybe we can start with defense? It's a large enough piece of pie that it can take some cuts. However, we can't simply cut our way out of debt. We also need to increase revenue at the same time. Not necessarily for the long term, but at least until the debt is neutralized. The poor don't have enough money to generate more revenue from. If you take more from the poor, we'd just need more entitlement programs to solve the newly created problems. We certainly don't need more entitlement programs, so that's off the table. If you take more from the middle class, they'll buy less stuff. If they buy less stuff, businesses will sell less stuff. If businesses sell less stuff, they'll need to downsize. This means high unemployment. That's the problem we're already in. Do you think we should just make the existing problem worse by hitting the middle class even harder? So, it stands to reason that if we don't want to make the current economy worse and we can't afford more entitlement programs to help the poor that would be made poorer by having their minuscule income sliced, then it only leaves taxing the wealthy more. It's just math and common sense. If you have a solution of your own that will generate enough revenue to get the U.S. out of debt and will keep current consumer spending habits stable, I'm all for it. So far, I've heard nothing but conjecture where the numbers just don't add up.

To be honest with you, I think the real goal of the GOP is to try to crush the churches and other non-profits. Think about it. If you cut entitlement programs that keep many in the middle class from hitting poverty levels and gives the poor a fighting chance, then you'll be flooding churches with even more charity cases. The GOP has also been eyeing cuts to tax benefits for charitable deductions, which will reduce the amount of money flowing into churches and other non-profits. That, alone, would be the one-two punch against these organizations. However, you also have some in the GOP questioning the fairness of the tax status of churches. If churches had to pay taxes, had less revenue coming in, and more mouths to feed and bodies to clothe, it would be a perfect storm and very few organizations would survive. I don't know if this is an intentional attack by the GOP against churches and charitable organizations, or just more proof that the GOP creates plans that look nice on paper but don't hold up to the light of logic and reason.
+hector navarrete I love facts. I'm still waiting for you to cite a single one. You keep repeating your argumentum ad nauseam, but fail to prove a thing. Here are some sources of information for you. Please forgive me for using Rush Limbaugh or Fox News as sources. I only did so out of a sense of fairness:

"[Operation] Wide Receiver has nothing in common [with Fast & Furious], other than guns crossing the border."

"The probe, Operation Wide Receiver, was carried out by ATF's Tucson, Ariz., office and resulted in hundreds of guns being transferred to suspected arms traffickers. The older gun-walking cases now coming to light from the Bush administration illustrate how ATF — particularly its Phoenix field division, encompassing Tucson, Ariz., as well as Phoenix — has struggled for years to counter criticism that its normal seize-and-arrest tactics never caught any trafficking kingpins and were little more than a minor irritant that didn't keep U.S. guns out of the hands of Mexican gangs."

"Over the next 19 months, Detty sold a series of suspected traffickers some 450 rifles and handguns—AR-15s, knockoff AK-47s, Colt .38s—all under the aegis of the ATF investigation. Hundreds of hours of conversations were taped. The guns were tracked, court filings show, and U.S. agents had fleeting contacts with Mexican police. But the investigation did not achieve its ambitious goals. The vast majority of the guns were never recovered by U.S. authorities. No kingpins were apprehended, no cartel taken down. Mexico's drug war raged on... The Justice Dept. has admitted in federal court filings in Tucson that at least two of its prosecutors in Arizona had in 2007 and 2008 questioned the wisdom of ATF's work with Detty, which was part of an investigation called Operation Wide Receiver. But no one tried to stop it."

"Dubbed 'Operation Wide Receiver,' the case was run out of Tucson between 2006 and 2007 and involved hundreds of guns that were purchased by small-time buyers who transferred them to middle men who then passed them up the chain and into Mexico."

If you have citations which back up your claim that "no guns under [operation] wide receiver crossed the border", simply provide a link. Thanks.

You also said, "this is a progressive tax code to punish your enemies. hence the reason our founding fathers were against it." Are you only citing some Founding Fathers and not others? Why cherry pick? Our Founding Fathers were not necessarily united in their ideas, so citing the group of them as one is a bit peculiar. In any case, I'll help you out:

Thomas Jefferson was openly pro-progressive taxation. As he said in a 1785 letter to James Madison, "Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise."

Thomas Paine was also a vocal advocate of the progressive income tax. The country passed a progressive estate tax in 1797, and this debate's been settled at least since the days of Teddy Roosevelt.

In George Washington's farewell address, he had this to say:

To facilitate to them the performance of their duty, it is essential that you should practically bear in mind that towards the payment of debts there must be revenue; that to have revenue there must be taxes; that no taxes can be devised which are not more or less inconvenient and unpleasant; that the intrinsic embarrassment, inseparable from the selection of the proper objects (which is always a choice of difficulties), ought to be a decisive motive for a candid construction of the conduct of the government in making it, and for a spirit of acquiescence in the measures for obtaining revenue, which the public exigencies may at any time dictate.

Now, let's look at that last phrase. Specifically, one word in it. Exigencies - An urgent need or demand. In other words, when the public has an urgent need or demand, sometimes inconvenient and unpleasant taxes are necessary.

The Founding Fathers were quite progressive, in fact. Even George Washington levied the first tax in the new republic, the Whiskey Tax, and when people rebelled, he used the military to enforce tax policy.
+hector navarrete cherry pickin and making personal attacks yet again huh...  The rich do pay less with the current tax codes.  According to you there aren't CEO's paying a lower percentage than their secretaries.  Apparently there aren't rich people and corporations paying 0% in taxes.  Why does that sound familiar?  Oh yes....Romney paid 0% in taxes for a few years there.  Interesting huh.

Sorry to break it to ya bud, but I have a masters in history, of which I teach.  And seriously, why does the right have to keep trying to use the founding fathers as a crutch for debates?  This isn't 18th century America.  The nation has changed quite a bit since then.  The founding fathers wanted representation.  With the nation and population as it was at the founding, taxes were not needed to run the nation as it does now.  Taxes back then were only levied on certain trade items that generated a good amount of wealth for a few.  Income taxes are a fairly new thing in this nation.  Don't like it?  Hop in your time machine and head on back to the good ole days.
+Peter Sitterly well trying to understand your point, I reread your post I reread my post, without a doubt I have done a horrible job and getting my point out to you, you would be correct in saying I was wrong. when I said guns were not " allowed " to cross the border, I should have said, not allowed without tracking, which is what I meant. hence the reason we advise the Mexican government. but without a doubt I worded it incorrectly. so technically you are correct I was wrong. so let me state, guns were not allowed to cross into Mexico without RFID tracking chips. or without advising Mexico authority. when Obama started fasting and furious there was no tracking done at all. the programs were not 1 in the same and we're completely different, your friend +kahil Nettleton not yourself said they were the same.

Different program names...same intent and purpose. Kinda difficult to not say they are essentially the same.

But let's get back on topic. This thread isn't about gun running programs.
+Kahil Nettleton what plant are u on? different program names, different intent, conducted completely differently. the fact that you think they're the same give me all the information I need
And the fact that you can't seem to spell or form a complete sentence tells the rest of us all that we need to know. Not to forget the immaturity you two exude.

Was not the intent of those programs to fight drug and gun running? Yes, it was. Same base intention. In case you haven't noticed, the gov't has this peculiar habit of giving new names to the same programs when something goes wrong. You see it in the military and you see it in congress.

Now, some of you seem to think that because the councilwomen was asking for a bailout you seem to think her intent was to just ask for a check. As seen by some ignorant posts here, there is some veiled and not so veiled racism at play here. They want help against the corrupt governor who is about to assign a city manager who will hold near dictator level power. All elected officials will have no say in what happens to the city. As with other cities under such "management", schools will be sold, public lands will be ceased, foreign companies will buy up property, etc. Just Google it for yourselves and find out what has happened to other cities there. Now, as has been said before, any financial help will come in the form of credit to be repaid with interest under high regulation.

Oh, my cup is empty, I need more koolaid. 
+hector navarrete Thank you for recognizing your error and owning it. Many props to you for that. Did you really +1 your own post, though? :D
+Peter Sitterly +Kahil Nettleton the fact your quoting a Thomas jefferson quote about property does not make a case for income tax, why did they pass the 16th amendment? Because of " 1895: In Pollock vs Farmers’ Loan & Trust Co, the Supreme Court rules that general income taxes are unconstitutional because they are unapportioned direct taxes. To this day, the ruling has not been over-turned"
if you think the founding father wanted your progressive tax code, why did they write article 1 section 8 clause in the constitution ? (Clause 1 – Power to tax and spend)

[The Congress shall have Power] To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
It says "UNIFORM" ! If you read there debates and there thoughts, it repudiate class division the progressive tax code.
“To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.” — Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816

“A wise and frugal government… shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” — Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801

“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” — Thomas Jefferson

“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” — Thomas Jefferson

“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions.” James Madison, “Letter to Edmund Pendleton,” — James Madison, January 21, 1792, in The Papers of James Madison, vol. 14, Robert A Rutland et. al., ed (Charlottesvile: University Press of Virginia, 1984).

“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin

“I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it.” — Benjamin Franklin

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety.” — Benjamin Franklin

“The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself.” — Benjamin Franklin

+Peter Sitterly this is more for +Kahil Nettleton I know you can't tell the difference between wide receiver and fast and furious , I'll tell you again, slowly nov. 8.2011 senator judiciary committee hearing Eric holder him self tell they are completely defferent.! 
+Peter Sitterly   in reference to WR and F&F,  just to add, the only real difference other then an agent being killed was that under Bush, no one was held accountable.  Then they came back and tried it again.
+hector navarrete This is a common type of mistake that's made when reading legal documents and not having a legal background. I've seen people see the "voluntary" part of the tax code and interpret as meaning "optional". Voluntary does not equal optional in legalese.

In the case of UNIFORM, it simply means the rules must be applied UNIFORMLY. For instance, you can't have one set of tax brackets for one region and a different set of tax brackets for another region. Whichever tax laws are set in place, these must be applied UNIFORMLY over geographical regions. The use of "UNIFORM" here is pertaining to geographical region, not based on income levels.

+john acker You seem to be under this false impression that I agree with all of the entitlement programs that our government has or that, somehow, Obama is responsible for all of the programs that exist, even if these programs have existed for decades. (I suppose I want Obama's time machine pronto.) It's unfortunate that, rather than see the world as the various shades of grey that it is, you choose to lump everyone into either anti-Obama or pro-Obama. It's silly considering the fact that it would mean that you are more obsessed with Obama than even an Obama-voter would be. This isn't about Obama. It's about doing what is logical and reasonable. If Obama started fighting against these principles, then I'd be fighting against Obama. It's not about the person, it's about the principles.

+Mike Mac It's safe to say (maybe) that such a program won't be tried again. Or else, the ATF will just conveniently leave more people out of the loop. ;)
+Mike Mac WR was coordinated with the Mexican Government. Your acountability statement is not correct and you fail to mention the Mexican citizens murdered under F&F.

And no, Detroit should not be bailed out. 
+Peter Sitterly the problem with your theory, as usual does not follow the facts, when Congress enacted income tax , even during the Civil War income tax, the Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional, because the federal government can not impose direct tax, which an income tax is, hence the 16th Amendment was to remove that stipulation, if the founding fathers wanted direct taxes and progressive taxes from Congress. why would they make sure Congress couldn't do it?
+Peter Sitterly I don't believe anyone is saying entitlements begin under Obama. can you say he has not stay expanded them tremendously?
+William Carlson  WR may have been coordinated, but most people that argue that point fail to mention there were just as many guns lost under WR as F&F, and most lost under WR were never recovered, they do not know the exact Ser numbers and there is no way to trace them back to any crimes committed.  It is pretty much unfathomable to think that all those guns that we do not know where they went have not been used to kill someone, but we will never know.... The sickening part matter what you say, NO ONE was held accountable for it ! No one, the exact same people tried it again under F&F...  if they were held accountable they would not be doing it again under F&F.... sad  very sad to think Bush's administration and justice department could have prevented F&F from ever happening in the first place but made a likely  criminal decision to brush it under the rug....... 

Even Obama basically pardoned them ,as he did with the entire Bush Administration with his don't look back, move Forward..  Guess that is one of his biggest mistakes in hindsight, he should have crucified Bush and his cronies for the crimes they committed....
+hector navarrete   they have expanded, but as you are probably aware, there was a reason for that.  that there was a huge financial meltdown in 2008, millions upon millions lost their jobs as a result.  You make it should like it was baseless expansion, yes it is a fact, but it has a basis which you are not bothering to mention ..
+Mike Mac so it's because of the financial collapse? I keep being told economy recovering, unemployment is down to 7.7%. so why does it continue to rise? being a Mexican American the government is invite people on Spanish channels to sign up for entitlements, not if you need it, just come and see if you qualify take advantage of the services offered. and still how does the government get into the business of taking care of everybody? that's not 1 of their a numerator powers, handouts have never got us out of a bad economic situation.
+hector navarrete If the Founding Fathers didn't want there to be any amendments to the constitution, why was there Article V:

"The Congress, whenever two-thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid, to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress;…"

The 16th Amendment was approved through the provisions in Article V. If you feel we should disregard any amendment of the Constitution (even the 16th), then you spit in the faces of our Founding Fathers who agreed we needed a way to amend the constitution.

Somehow, you've decided to change the topic. (Of course, the original topic was Detroit.) Nonetheless, a spin-off topic was whether taxes should be progressive taxes or flat taxes. When the logic overwhelmingly point to greater logic and reason with progressive taxes over flat taxes, you build the straw man of debating income taxes altogether. It's your prerogative as to whether you feel income taxes are constitutional or not. However, if we start with the assumption that income taxes are constitutional, then there is no basis to weigh flat taxes versus progressive taxes when using the constitution. However, based on logic and reason and sound advice from the Founding Fathers, progressive taxation just makes sense.

Of course, if your attitude is that income taxes themselves are unconstitutional, then that must mean you feel the 16th Amendment is unconstitutional. If that's the case, then you must feel that Article V itself is unconstitutional. This clearly leads to the Constitution itself being unconstitutional. At that point, one just can't reason with an unreasonable person.
+Mike Mac really? wide receiver lost just as many guns? according to Eric Holder, wide receiver allowed 300 guns to walk and no deaths associated with it. fast and furious, 2000 walk across the border, 1 dead border agent one ice agent and hundreds of Mexicans killed.
wide receiver made an attempt to track all the guns with RFID, drones, an agents, yes it did failed. but no 1 died
+hector navarrete As +Mike Mac pointed out, the expansion of government spending at this time has nothing to do with who is President but simply has to do with the passage of time. It wouldn't matter who was President for the past four years, government spending was going up due to mandatory circumstances.

For instance, the recession meant more people were applying for Medicaid and Social Security benefits. Also, a greater number of people are hitting retirement age. You can't blame Obama for the fact that people are getting older. Unless, of course, you perceive him as some sort of deity. I know I don't.

Programs such as Medicaid and food stamps automatically expand during economic downturns. There were also expansions passed by congress (such as extending unemployment benefits) which began under Bush. I definitely think this was a good thing and the expansion of unemployment benefits may have allowed many to survive just long enough to find another job, but it definitely contributed greatly to the entitlement spending. Personally, I think that unemployment benefits should slowly diminish over time, rather than just hit a timeline cutoff and vanish immediately. By shrinking with time, it would encourage people to try to obtain a lower and lower paying job until they're looking for anything. Current unemployment benefits encourage someone to keep waiting around for a job of a certain pay level, which might be unrealistic during a recession.

In any case, it is disingenuous to put blame on any President what was clearly either Congress' role or was a naturally occurring economic situation.
+hector navarrete You're right that more weapons went missing under Operation Wide Receiver than under Fast & Furious. I don't agree with +Mike Mac on that point. However, nobody can genuinely say "no deaths were associated with Operation Wide Receiver". Just think about science. A scientists could never say that no deaths were associated with Operation Wide Receiver. One could say that no known deaths were associated with Operation Wide Receiver... but since guns went missing, one can never know the cost. The same could also be said about Fast & Furious. There is one known death, but there could have been more. We'll never know for sure. That's the problem with both programs (and others like it). There was a gamble being taken. It was all a risky business. The two programs, however, are cut from the same cloth. They are both designed under the premise that the government can allow certain activities to take place and, to some degree, even guide the process... hoping that the information they gather from this results in benefits that outweigh those costs.

If one were to hold Obama culpable for operation Fast & Furious, one would at least hold Bush culpable for Operation Wide Receiver. It's a bit late for that, so at this point we just have to learn as a nation what works and what doesn't work. Then, move forward instead of all of this finger pointing. The same goes for 9/11 or for Katrina or for Iran/Contra. Let's get out of the finger-pointing business... stop writing names on a wall... and instead, think only of the facts and the wins and the losses and to formulate new strategies.

Based on history, it's pretty clear Detroit shouldn't be bailed out. They're just going to have to suffer their circumstances. Our current system of progressive taxation works, but it's pretty clear that Bush's changes to that system don't work, so we need to revert back to the way the system was under Clinton, or at least approach those numbers. We need to cut some programs, but it wouldn't make sense to cut the very programs people need when we've just been hit by a recession. That's like deciding that parachutes just cost too much when you're already falling from the plane. Then, when we can gradually move out from this dire situation and can end up with a surplus again like we had under Clinton, that's when you start cutting some more spending (but leave the taxes alone, or possibly even move them even closer to the rates under Clinton.) We should never, however, stop trying to find ways to make government work more efficiently and to continue to listen to the will of the people instead of the will of the wealthy or of parties with influential politicians.
one dead, 100 dead, one gun lost, 200+ here 100 there 400 there lost, the fact remains if the Bush Administration would have put a stop to it and held those accountable and disciplined them, they would not have done it again, and got caught, people killed we know of and the Obama administration have to clean up more Bush mess.... it all stated in Laredo, TX in 2005......
+hector navarrete Re-reading one of the things you said, there's another flaw in the dots you are connecting. You said, "the Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional, because the federal government can not impose direct tax, which an income tax is..."

That's not entirely true.

The clause you are referring to is specifically:

"No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken."

There are a couple of things to understand here. First, is what a Capitation is. Capitation is a per person (or in some cases per property) fee. So, if there were a tax such as "$10 per person", this would be a Capitation. So, an income tax (which is percentage based) in not a Capitation.

Secondly a direct tax is one that is imposed directly on a person (or property). For instance, you can't avoid a direct tax because a direct tax is imposed by you simply existing. A direct tax is in contrast to a transaction tax, which is based on an event. You can avoid event-based taxes by simply not participating in said event, so a transaction tax is not a direct tax. An income tax is not a direct tax. It is transaction based. It is based on you earning an income. One can exist and not earn an income, so a tax based on income is by definition not a poll (or direct) tax.

Since an income tax is neither a Capitation nor a direct tax, the clause you are referring to does not apply. It's as simple as that.

The reason the Supreme court had an issue (in 1895) with some income taxes is because these income taxes were based on the income from property (think: rent). This, they determined, meant these taxes were direct taxes. Direct taxes are not unconstitutional, they simply have to be in Proportion to the Census. In other words, people in more populous states need to pay a larger share that those in less populous states. Since these taxes on income from property were not proportionate to the population of the state, these particular taxes were deemed unconstitutional. It had nothing to do with all income taxes, simply those tied to property. And income taxes based on property would have been allowed if the taxes had been proportionate based on the population of each state. The 16th Amendment made this a moot point by considering all income taxes, whether from property or not, to be indirect taxes.

So what does this all mean? It means that income taxes from wages have always been taxable according to the constitution. The only kind of income tax that was up for debate was from the income from property, which changed with the 16th Amendment. Even if you were to nuke the 16th Amendment, income taxes from wages would still be constitutionally sound. And even so, income from property would also be able to be taxed, it's just that people in California would have to pay a greater share than people in New York. Neither of these situations suggest that "the Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional, because the federal government can not impose direct tax, which an income tax is..." That's just patently false.
+Mike Mac I hear what you're saying about the "Bush mess", but at some point we have to move forward from the blame-game. You can blame Bush for the decisions he made based on the information he had, but once you start checking every domino that has fallen on every other domino, that game can be played everywhere else.

For instance, should one hold Obama directly accountable for the death of the border agent? If so, shouldn't one hold the manufacturer of the gun directly accountable? Personally, I don't think so. The only person that should be held accountable for the death of the border agent is the person who fired the weapon. Period. Was Fast & Furious a flawed program? Sure. Was Operation Wide Receiver flawed? Sure. Will comparing the two bring back any lives lost? Absolutely not. If Fast & Furious had not existed, would all border agents be safe? Not a chance.

The same mentality that goes into asking for the elimination of the right to bear arms simply because some people are killed by weapons is the same mentality that points the blame at a President because a death can be linked to a weapon that is traceable by a particular operation that took place by the ATF while that President was in office. It's the excessive blame from connection too many dots and drawing too many conclusions.

Now, certainly, I can understand that when people want to blame Obama, the natural reaction is to counter-blame Bush for similar activities. However, that only sends the message that this blame game is a valid operation to begin with. Blaming anyone gets us nowhere. Our country is based on representation. Our representatives are in place, so now we only need to look at issues. What are the things we want our government to do? What are the things we don't want out government to do? We should communicate these things with our representatives, especially our senators in the senate and our representatives in the house because these are the representatives that matter. This is where everything truly happens. All the rest is just fodder for the media to pounce on like it's a football game, to entertain the masses.
Operation Wide Receiver was a plan to trace the movement of weapons and was canceled in 2007 when problems developed. No one was killed, weapons were tracked with RFID devices. Operation Wide Receiver was coordinated with the Mexican Government. Operation Wide Receiver involved tracking about 300 weapons. In F&F there was no accountability, ATF agents sold thousands of guns without a reliable way to recover them, apparently just hoping for the best. In fact, ATF agents involved in Fast and Furious were ordered to stand down and not track the weapons even when interdiction was possible according to testimony. Mexican authorities were kept completely in the dark during Fast and Furious, according to the Mexican ambassador to the U.S. Mexico. Fast and Furious resulted in the murder of a US Border Patrol Agent and unknown numbers of Mexican Citizens.

And Detroit should get their house in order rather than expecting the taxpayers to bail them out.
+William Carlson I see you consulted your two interns, Suzie Cut and Sally Paste  lol had Bush held those responsible accountable for Wide Receiver,  F&F would never have happened.  Period, no debate there .

And the Republican Governor of Michigan should figure out what policy changes he wants his Detroit city manager to follow to "fix" things because the ones he directed them to follow before obviously have failed pretty bad.... 
+Peter Sitterly  I do not disagree, but the Right needs to understand at some point, they need to admit and accept  Bush's fuck-ups ,failure of his/GOP strategy and policy, and not try to pass the blame onto another administration.  But they can't.... The irony is, they are the ones playing the blame game
+Cory Lewis  careful, the "conservatives" are restless...both of them
+Mike Mac Your ability to spin is amazing. I know you never have ever cut and pasted any text but you are a spin freak for sure. I remembered I had read an article about this topic so I found it and put the high points in my post. Some typing, some C&P. Wasn't gonna type it verbatim just for you. Not really much of a counter, I expected you to attack my Military service or the fact that I earn a paycheck or both.

Feel free to blame Bush, didn't realize he is still the puppet master behind the BHO Cartel, but hey your defense of anything to do with Obama is the same boring crap, "Bush's fault".However the truth is BHO and Holder launched out on their own with Fast & Furious which had nothing to do with WR.
+William Carlson  had those that were caught under WR been held accountable by Bush's Justice department, then those exact same people would not have started F&F. They wern't... and they did.  two facts.

That is logic and fact, but I can see why you call it "spin" in a feeble attempt to discredit and dismiss facts like you always do.  And it is not me blaming anyone, it's you. I am just correcting you with those nasty things that make you cringe... facts.

Here you go again, judge jury and executioner, forgoing due process like you usually do... the Constitution is not even yet dry from the last time you pissed all over it .... you and your belief of selective rights applied to Americans based upon their beliefs...  

and I have never discredited your military service, I have discredited you personally and pointed out your hypocrisy,
screaming like a banshee about big government, slandering and disrespecting your Commander-in-Chief in violation of a military oath, all the time while drawing a government paycheck and benefits.  Your willing to serve and service is admirable, but your behavior and attitude is embarrassing... 

So what is the Republican governors plan for Detroit?
+Peter Sitterly you're all over the map on this 1, it is a direct tax, it is not a direct tax! from economic perspective, in economics : hey direct tax will refer to any levy that is both imposed and collected on a specific group and people or organization. an example of direct taxation would be income tax that are collected from the people who actually earned their income!
in direct taxes are collected from someone or something organization other than the person or entity that would normally be responsible for the taxes I eat a sales tax for instance would not be considered a direct tax because the money is collected from the merchant, not from the people who are actually paying a tax. (consumer). Article 1 Section 2 representative and direct Taxes Shall apportioned among the several states which may be included within their union.
Gee +Mike Mac I explained to you once before that I'm not a court of law. I'm a private citizen. Due Process is a protection afforded to private citizens from the government, not the other way around. (amazing I have to explain that to you again) I'm simply exercising my Constitutional right to voice my opinion about the government which you want to stifle. Talk about pissing on the Constitution. What a scholar you are, you didn't even recognize a phrase from the United States Declaration of Independence. Sorry you always get all butthurt about any criticism that comes King Obama's way.

My post was facts concerning both operations. WR was canceled under the Bush administration when they began having problems tracking weapons. Under Fast and Furious ATF agents were told not to bother tracking weapons. Blame Bush if you want, but Holder was and is the head of the DOJ so it's on him.

Yeah, you voiced several times about my being paid a government check but I just couldn't wrap my head around the fact that you would criticize me for working for the government and getting justly paid for my services. Guess if I sat on my ass and got a check you'd be ok w/that. If you'd like I can cut and paste the oath of enlistment (which I have fulfilled) for you, since you are obviously ignorant of it. 

And yeah, government is way too big. I think your discussion of 33% cuts across the board is phony. You know damn well that this administration will make no such cuts and you railed loud and long against the candidate more likely to cut the size and scope of the federal government.

I have no idea what the Governor of Michigan plans for Detroit, evidently the city government wants to skip him and go right to BHO. 
wow +William Carlson   Yes you are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is that not all Americans have equal rights, you feel that those that do not believe as you do have less rights....   Your opinion is just plain unpatriotic, in my opinion anyway....

As far as me not recognizing the DOI passage, as I said before, my confusion was why you would be referencing that when we were discussing the Constitution..... 

I am still confused as to why you would gnaw on the hand that you were letting feed you.  That is what you need to wrap your head around, not what you want to think I meant.

and I am aware of the oath, the one that says you will follow the rules outlined in the UCMJ.  and in the UCMJ it is very clear as to expectations respecting the Commander-in-Chief, the President of the Untied States.  You were the one badmouthing him, slandering him, showing disrespect that knew no bounds..    Hi-pock-ra-see.  Why do you keep bringing this up??  You seem to enjoy it....  

You think Romney was going to cut the size of government?  LOL   He already had plans to expand government, he ran on that platform so I am not sure why you continue to ignore his actual plan.....  Fact is BO has already been downsizing government....  look at the statistics...  but I understand why we don't want to talk about that... I mean look at history, and how the size of government has exploded under GOP administrations...  your argument does not match recorded, documented historical fact....

and I understand why you think my ideas about reducing size of government would not be practical... because it would stop any argument you would have.....

It does appear the Detroit city government wants to skip the Governor, his direction and policies have failed and they are suffering, they want help, and BO seems to be able to help when the Republican governor has only caused things to get worse over the years.......  
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