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Day four of the #shutdown  and only 9% of #IRS  staff are working. Please like and share this if you want the IRS defunded and disbanded with the #FairTax ! Congress WILL listen if enough of us demand it. Send this prewritten letter in one minute here: -- Thank you!
David Kokua's profile photoshane b's profile photoTom Johnson's profile photoMark O'Connor's profile photo
The Fair Tax is the only legislation that eliminates the IRS. 
More right wing fuctarded idiots!
Just more right wing fiscal ideology.  You know, the same stuff that got us into the mess we're in now.
Ken J
The right wing says the same thing about the left wing... 

where does THAT leave us +Mark O'Connor ?
+Ken J    It means neither is completely right. But, we haven't had left wing fiscal policies implemented in this country in the last 30+ years as we have right wing policies.  Neither Obama nor Clinton are/were liberals.  It's been mostly all right wing fiscal policy since the 80s.
shane b
Keynesian econ policy, look it up, kids. 
Hey Mark, Clinton & Obama are as liberal as they come. I think u r a little mixed up and don't understand the difference between liberal & conservative!
shane b
Darrell let the adults talk. You're out of your league, bud. 
+Darrell Crosby No, it's you who is confused.  If you think Clinton and Obama are liberals then research liberal more.  Liberals don't appoint Wall Street suits to manage fiscal policy.  Liberals don't buy into the right wing obsession with deficits -- which by the way have been shrinking under Obama.  Some further research and reading will clear that up for you.
Actually neither was far left. Both are left of center. Any student of politics knows this. Far left candidates and far right candidates do not get elected in this country. Both sides try to paint the presidential candidate as extreme but its not true. Bush, McCain and Romney were center right. The country is centerest. If Obama was far left we would have single payer and no drones.
+Evan McNeeley Flat tax of what?  Income?  What's income?  Wages, interest, dividends, capital gains?  Everyone has a different idea of what "income" is.  Good luck on getting this or any Congress to agree as well.  That's exactly why this "flat" idea is just another ideological theory that gets thrown around as if it's something that's workable in real life.
The flat tax unfairly targets the poor who have little if any disposable income. If the rich in America keep shitting on the poor you are going to see unrest similar to what happens in countries where the poor have overthrown the government. History repeats itself. I am happy in the middle class but there is bad shit brewing in this country.
Ken J
BOTH parties support Keynesian policies. Thanks for bringing that up +shane b 

If the Democrats were really concerned about "right wing" fiscal policies they they'd have made serious effort to change fiscal policy during times they held power in both chambers of congress. Even just a couple of years ago, but they did not.

Neither party really differs in fiscal policy, though I'm open to hearing key points on where some may think otherwise. 

"The hundreds of thousands of government workers who have been laid off are not idle because the House of Representatives did not vote enough money to pay their salaries or the other expenses of their agencies ..."

Sounds like someone who favors the "right" but Sowell really is hard to pin down as a "left" or "right" person. He used to be a Marxist so he isn't afraid to change his opinion, an open mindedness that those who suffer from dogma have a hard time communicating well. #thomassowell  definitely doesn't appear to favor the status quo economic policies.

But my personal opinion is that the Repubs control the house and the above statement is surely true. However the Dems control the house and are taking a stance that anything that doesn't fund ACA (aka obamacare) is not going to be passed in their house.
Ken J
+Mark O'Connor says
"Liberals don't appoint Wall Street suits to manage fiscal policy." Yet Obama brought on Tim Geithner heading the us treasury. Obama could have picked someone else but he went with the flow... Geithner who kept on bailing out Wall Street. 

Neither party differs on the main fiscal policy. Just as we've heard nothing much from the anti-war "left". Big banks and the M.I.C. seem to march on at the same pace regardless of who's in the White House or Congress.
shane b
By that definition, the last five Republican Presidents have been flaming liberals. Congrats. 
+Ronnie Ruff obviously math isn't your strong point, you do realize that poor people pay less taxes than rich people because.... wait for it.... it's a percentage!
I say keep the government close till we have a surplus. 
+Travis Owens you are an idiot. There are Americans that do not pay income taxes because they are below the poverty line, the working poor. What is their percentage? That's not math its common sense which it seems you don't have.
Real mature you seem like a problem solver. You from Alabama? Some times beating your wife or life partner is not the answer. 
Does this qualify as domestic terrorist activity?
Because the guy that works behind the counter at rite-aid is worth listening to when he starts lobbing insuts +Chuck Scharrer ? What +Ronnie Ruff was saying when the axis of idiocy attacked was that the "fair tax" does in fact disproportionately effect the poor. 9% of a smaller income (though the same actual percentage) is a larger percentage of the working poors cost of living. 
Liberal's are the lowest form of politics. Make new laws but can't follow the constitution.
+Glen Shurtz if you are referring to ACA the right leaning SC upheld it. Even a bozo like yourself understands that the SC rules on constitutionality right?
+Carl Weaver another fucktard drives a bus but wants the government shut down so highways don't get repaired. Too sad....
Funny watching a liberal defend the morons he voted for.
hahahahahahahaha congress.....listen. That just made my day!!!! Thank you for the hilarity! 
But if the IRS gets shutdown by the fair tax who would administer the ACA/Obamacare behemoth???
Why do you speak when you don't know what your talking about?
Typical liberal wanting to get into everyone life and try to control it.
It's a good thing you got it all figured out smart guy!
What old folks home you stay at? Most retirement homes make you go to bed at 9pm and turn off the the internet so old perves don't go looking for 15 year old girls.
Must be talking from experience.
Funny how everybody gets called a racist if you don't believe in Obama.
Yes you are a RACIST if you use a persons lineage in a derogatory manner vs attacking the person. 
+Freddyboo Brown No worries, the government still has plenty of income to continue a level of service. The rest of "running" is left up to the people, local, and state level services, as it should be.
I love how right wing republican political action often involves attempting to garner popular support for absurdities that have no chance of passing, but sound wonderful to the usual constituency of misinformed, non-critically thinking dolts who make up the bulk of their voter base. Corporate america and the wealthy 1% know that these gullible voters are key in their ongoing fight to de-regulate and privatize everything. 
So a poor person who is spending most of what they make is being tax at a quarter of what they make while a rich person whom is investing/saving a much greater percentage of what they make and effectively paying less into the system. So this is called a fair tax???? Not at all fair from my view.
Your president doubled the national debt in 4 years so how's that for fair!
Thats because bush had us in toilet bowl all but flushed us down drain
I think that is a very mix informed statement however it's a straw man. The real argument is should we really support a tax that allows the rich to take up very little of the burden while encouraging them not to spend their money. Seems like that would devastate the economy.
How do we have army if no federal tax ! Who pays diplamats
Freddy you are the stain in the bottom of the toilet bowl.
You where a turd if you end up a stain.
You are the floater that will never go down the drain.
How can anyone be so stupid that they want to get rid of the IRS. No taxes means no government, no government means total anarchy, anarchy turns the 1st world US into 3rd world Sudan.
I want to get rid of the IRS! It doesn't mean no taxes. It means you apply a federal sales tax, then those that spend more, pay more taxes, but the percentage is equal for all...proposed years ago, but congress hates the idea, wonder why?
Then don'y say you want to get rid of the IRS say you want to impose a a Flat and federal sales tax instead of the current tax code. Why because the IRS does a whole lot more than just collect taxes and we as a nation still need those other services.
This is why capitation was the choice of the founders: a tax that could be paid by the least common denominator. This required government to tax within reason and severely limited is scope. Once the taxing floodgates opened with the 16th Amendment, the spending frenzy followed.

At 300M people, direct taxes would require $10,000 from every man, woman and child. Since that's 60% of poverty level, it could never fly. The most a modern capitation could demand would be closer to $1800/person - about $540B - which is where our government spending should be.

Progressive taxes on income have at once created a 5x increase in government revenue and yet it is still not enough to sate the spender's lust. 
+Mark O'Connor the fair tax is basically a sales tax by the federal instead of states if you live in a state that has a sales tax.

My explanation is simplistic but ultimately if you go to the store to buy a shirt you'll pay state and federal sales tax. The exact percentage eludes me but 6% state, 1-2% county/city and 20-30% fed.

No more income tax an federal deductions. You take more of your paycheck home. If you don't spend the money you don't pay the tax. .

There are somethings that are exempt and prebated, I think food for example.

Honestly. From one kook to another. Just look into the fair tax. Imagine not filling tax returns ever again. No audits. No refunds, no owing at the end if the year.

Simple. Spend money, post taxes. Don't spend money, don't pay taxes.

Takes power away from government. And we both know the Jack wagons in Washington love to use us as pawns to pay for their pretty projects and pander to their interests.
+Ken J Thanks.  You made my point for me.  Obama is not a liberal.  He is not proposing and has not proposed leftist fiscal policy or any other policy for that matter.
I think the liberal vs conservative discussion is funny. President Obama and Clinton are not extreme left with most of their policies, only moderately leftist. What makes them both extremely both Ieftist and populist are their social policies.

Fair tax SOUNDS like a great idea, BUT... it sadly wont generate enough revenue, imho, for the defense budget ALONE, even if it was hyper-efficient, which we all know it isn't.

Countries that become net consumers and suck solely on the milkless teat of providing services as opposed to the far grander manufacturing method will eventually die.

Our workers are underskilled and over paid AND suffer from inflated entitled egos.

Taxation is a far smaller problem than what I just mentioned. Fix what I mentioned and we likely have an affluent eniugh tax base to afford what we are currently being charged.....

+Mark O'Connor Being liberal doesn't exempt anyone from corruption -Crony Socialism is no less corrupt than crony Capitalism. The Dems and the GOP are wrong if they haven't realized that Keynesian economics have failed, and that government regulation has caused most of the problems we endure today.

The government does not need any taxes to function -We need a redefinition of the purpose of government and the acceptance that no government should ever have influence over the economy.
The fundamental issue is power not political party. There are those who believe in power concentrated in the hands of a few elite who then govern as they see fit. There are others who see power in the hands of the many who then by their individual actions decide who governs. 

This shutdown is all about who controls the free market - the few (government) or the many (the consumers). This same argument was decided in 1776 but rages on today.

As Milton Friedman wrote, “Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.” 
#1 if taxation of 100 percent of your production is slavery, at what percentages is is NOT slavery?

#2 If an individual takes something without agreement or permission from the owner, it is a crime called theft. What is the moral grounds for taking something without consent just because the government does it?

#3 If so many people believe in what the government is doing, wouldn't they WANT to pay their taxes for the services? Couldn't the services not then be made cheaper and better by more providers offering alternatives in the marketplace?
I say that we could eliminate the IRS, or at least greatly reduce their size by going to a value added tax only for federal taxes. Hell, we would even pull revenue from the black-market industries that most certainly exist in this country. It would also push individual fiscal responsibility by rewarding saving with minimal taxation. Just a thought.
+Owen Welling Great questions.

“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost come in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” 
― Milton Friedman
Screw your Mammon-worshipping tax structures. You don't have the votes so it ain't going to happen. 
What will srop them from tryimg to still collect after they are dead. It seems that if you are created by the FED you have terminate life.
+Dr. Richard Swier I would refer you back to point #3.. competition will ALWAYS increase quality and decrease costs.. so why encourage a monopoly?

My bad +mark pinto, I didn't see that you'd already said something about the value added tax.
“Only a crisis - actual or perceived - produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes the politically inevitable.” ― Milton Friedman
+Dr. Richard Swier, it seems to me to be the reason these procedural "emergencies" seem to coincide with the passage or furtherance of atrocious policies/laws.
Glad goverment  is shut down, no more big goverment . no i.r.s. States can take care of them selves like they used to , we were better of and had more to offer AMERICAN people .Morals ,values defund federal gov all to gather and start over
I have not seen a larger group of idiots all together on one thread for a while. The ignorance is overwhelming
+Pam Howell i am not sure what state you are in but most would go belly up without Federal support. Many struggle to provide basic care for children and the elderly as it is. You truly are boneheaded.
+Ronnie Ruff Did you support TARP and the bailouts? If any business would fail without government support they don't deserve to exist.

Oh, how did America survive without government handouts? Funny, poverty was on steady decline until the federal government declared war on poverty.
No Sir I do not support tarp and no bailouts nor for printing money we don't have , and yes poverty was on decline till fed gov. put nose in every thing they could and have done . 
I don't know if the fair tax is all its cracked up to be. But I do agree that taxing consumption would be better for the overall economy than taxing productivity. 
Left wing right about we come together and fly this country into the direction of peace, success and happiness!
@Brandon- you know this based on what?  There's this idea that productivity takes place in a vacuum, and that the work and contributions of other people in the same society make no contribution to it.  Which is just bogus.
Ken J
Facepalm. +Mark O'Connor only gets half the message :(

How can the current fiscal policy be "right-wing" when both parties support it?

Just because Obama keeps a fiscal plan rolling doesn't mean he isn't liberal in every other way. The money is the one thing all politicians thrive on.

Bad policy is bad policy, people need to drop their party labels. Dogma!
+Wendy M. Lewis  yes we can fly this country togather as a Nation in right direction ,success than happiness and peace ,WE THE PEOPLE ,I like your post .
+Ronnie Ruff why do u personally attack anyone that doesn't have the same beliefs as you? And, +Mark O'Connor do u contribute to society in any way? 
 a fair tax would be  no tax. we have not had an income tax for very long and we survived just fine for over 100 years 
If you don't live in the US or have ever lived here please don't speak on something you know nothing about :)

A lot of you just enjoy typing none of you are making valid points or even entertaining arguments. It just looks like a bunch of adults with internet access. 
+Brandon Stecklein you're completely right. "you're doing great things for this country so here, let's burden u the most with taxes." 
Taxes keep our government running. All civilized societies have taxes to support things they need and want. Infrastructure, courts, healthcare, public safety... Everyone talks like they want to live like it was 1890. Many want to go back to the simple days when most folk were white and the black and brown folk minded their manners. Women listened to the men and pushed out babies when they were told. Science was all bs. I have just described the "modern" cracker republican party LOL. 
+Hunter Hart I call it like I see it. If you don't like it feel free to block me its quite easy.
Maybe +FairTax should move to Somalia where there is no taxes, plenty of guns, and no government. 
+Brandon Stecklein taxing consumption puts unfair burdon on the working poor who would be taxed on every dime they make because they live from paycheck to paycheck. The rich have gobs of money that would never get taxed. Its simple really. But the rich would love for the system to be changed so that the rich would become richer and the poor even poorer. Some day and it may be soon the poor will wise up and realise there is power in numbers. It will not be pretty for the rich and powerful. Look back through history at the countries wear the poor got sick of being shit on. There was revolution and leadership changed. The US needs to be mindful of history and do a better job of making sure everyone gets the same chance to succeed in life. Currently that is not the case.
+Ronnie Ruff We are the greatest country in the world. Our constitution is the reason. Read it. 
+Hunter Hart if we are the greatest country in the world why do Republicans complain so much about it and want to "get their country back"? If you have read the constitution you know it is a working document that has been amended over the years. It was a flawed document when written. Many amendments later there is still room to change it. When written women could not vote and slavery was OK. 
+Greg Parkinson and +Ronnie Ruff  What I meant, is that wealth and capital are generated from savings and production.  

It is just a basic economic fact that when you subsidize something, you get more of it.  Likewise, when you penalize something, you get less of it.  Overall policies right now (not just through the tax code) subsidize spending and debt and penalize savings and production.  

So the reason I say a consumption tax is currently superior to a production tax, is because America currently has over consumption and under production.  This is evidenced by both the negative balance of trade and the sheer levels of public and private debt.  

I acknowledge the argument though, that a consumption tax is perceived to be less fair to the poor, as they use a higher percentage of their income for basic consumption.  I think this could be offset by exempting essential items like food and clothing from the tax.  

As for the notion of a consumption tax being a huge benefit to the rich, I believe that to be the bogus argument.  If the rich are not consuming, then what are they doing with their money?  If it's just sitting there collecting dust, they aren't enjoying it anyway.  As soon as they go out and buy their Ferrari or their golden toilet seat or their private jet, they will pay the consumption tax on their purchase.  The difference is, unlike a production tax, there will be no loopholes or fancy accounting to avoid the tax.  It will just be paid at the point of sale.  They will probably end up paying more.  If instead they save the money and later use it for production and capital, it will be helping to improve the overall economy and create jobs and opportunities for the rest of society.  
While I have a few problems with the fair tax proposal there are some things I like:
1. used goods aren't taxed.  Buying second hand is tax dodging.  
2. criminals pay taxes.  Like drug dealers and prostitutes
3.  Since illegal immigrants would now be paying taxes most of the complaints about them goes away.
4. people can see every day what they pay in taxes and ask "what has uncle sam done for me lately"  I think this is important to keeping congress accountable.  
5.  The prebate would give people with zero income a little help.  

What I don't like:
1. there will be tax dodging.  Who's to stop someone from opening the packaging and calling it used?  
2. Implementing the prebate is going to require someone to implement and manage. I don't think the IRS goes away so much as changes shape.
3. getting the 16th amendment repealed is next to impossible. If you don't repeal it, you will get income tax and sales tax.  
4.  I don't like that housing, and medical care are taxed.
5. I hate the 23%/30% inclusive/exclusive.  They should have just said 30%

I would take fair tax over what we have now.  But I do think there are better ways. 
+Ronnie Ruff so u didn't read the Constitution, obviously. Our democracy is what makes this free world the greatest in the world. There are differences of opinion and always will be. There have been 17 gov't shutdowns in the past so please don't patronize people and act like you are all knowing. This is not unusual. The reason for this shutdown is because there is no funding for Obamacare in the house's bill. The reason there is no funding is because Republicans are asking how we pay for it? Our debt is through the roof. We have to take away funding for other things to fund Obamacare but the DEMOCRATS won't do that. Obama has never even proposed a budget. Maybe what u don't realize is that it's common sense to have a budget. You can't CONTINUE to spend more money than you take in. It has gone on for too long. Sure, there will always be a deficit, or debt. But it's out of hand right now. What you need to do is wake up and realize that it's good to have multiple parties in gov't. It balances things. It's in the Constitution. Stop attacking people personally. Somehow Democrats spin it that Republicans ram their ideas down people's throat, when in fact the Democrats do the same thing and make personal attacks. 
The problem with the fair tax is that number 1 the government will never go for it because it eliminates thousands of secret ways they steal money. Number 2 is being careful what you wish for. They could implement it and then just keep adding taxes on top of it. One thing that all of this governmental bull crap should bring to light to everyone is that ANY law, policy, etc set in place by any member of any party will and can be written over, changed, or eliminated by an executive order. Obama has made that very clear in his overuse of power.

No law that is put in place anymore is for the "good" of the american people. The laws are now just return the scratched back. 
So many of you think that a flat tax would hurt the poor, but it actually will only hurt for a little while. If there's a flat tax on the rich they will pay significantly more money over time and eventually it will start to even things out. There should also be a cap on earned income. Billionaires even high end multiple millionaires shouldn't exist. 
+Robert Chapman your flat tax argument is valid, but capping income? You know, there are communist countries that might suit you better. 
+Hunter Hart so you call people with different ideas communists? Sounds like a personal attack buddy. Me thinks you full of shit.
+Robert Chapman only hurt for a little while. Yeah most serious injuries are that way till you are dead. 
You can't tell me we can keep letting the money filter to the top where it's being hoarded and spent sparingly, then expect our economy to flourish? Can you? The top 1% of our population controlling 90% of wealth in this country is a separation of income that should have never happened. You can't admit that? If you don't have a solution, then quit bitching. 
+Hunter Hart huntnot only have I read it unlike you I understand it haha. Its called comprehension. My friend I will never convince you of my views or me of yours. Its better to disengage before I call you some names you might find offensive.
+Ronnie Ruff , you're just making excuses. You don't know the facts anymore than I do. 
F**K the rich and the gov. the working man will always be poor as long as they're in charge
The IRS is illegal anyway! Read the Constitution people 
Here we go... The IRS is illegal. If you fucktards don't want to pay taxes don't ... Follow the advice of a previous poster and take your sorry tired asses to Somolia. You say its the greatest country in the world and bitch and moan that you pay taxes. What a bunch of fuctarded losers.
I do not mind paying taxes. At one time, paying taxes was something to aspire to, as in it meant you were wealthy enough to do so.  The problem as I see it is the fact that the American people, nor their government, controls our own money.  I see no change possible unless the control of our money is removed from the Fed, and given back to the people and our government.  As we approach the 100 year anniversary of the Fed, the dollar has decreased in value 95%.  This was no accident, and the Fed is not elected by or accountable to the people.  The Fed monopoly on our money must end, and be returned to the United States Treasury where it belongs.  If they can write/create a "bond", then they can certainly write/create a damn dollar.  Yet, we continue to borrow OUR OWN MONEY from the Fed, and then pay it back WITH INTEREST.    We were warned by our previous leaders many times, and did not listen.  Welcome to today.  
Libertarians DUMB!
Greed is just part of the human condition. I am unsure that can be fixed.  Negative aspects of humans have been compensated for by creating law and civility.  Republicans are responsible for this present shutdown.  After a lost election with a candidate to end ACA, after 40+ votes to end ACA, and after losing a supreme court challenge to ACA, they followed the rules of our government and lost.  We have a democracy.  We VOTE.  Majority wins, move on.  Once again, we VOTE.  Republicans are now simply trying to take by force what they could not win with a VOTE,  using the incomes and livlihoods of a million people as leverage, just as a bank robber uses a hostage.  
When will people see that Obama and the democrats want everyone fighting over petty sh%& so they can take over! Wake up people! Obama is a Muslim ! 
+Milton Ragsdale We haven't had Keynesian economics for decades.  We've had supply side, trickle down, tax cuts for the wealthy, and other right wing policies.  THAT is why we're in the mess we're in.  And you're right.  Being a liberal doesn't exempt one from corruption or cronyism.  I was pointing out that if Obama were a liberal he would not have put Geitner in charge of fiscal policy.  Geitner (and Obama as well) are too much in bed with the Wall Streeters who caused much of the last economic crash.  If Obama were really a liberal he wouldn't have done that.
+Ken J You're right, both parties do support it.  But, it's still right-wing.  Both supporting it is much of the problem.
+Mark O'Connor I believe a large contributor to our current economic mess stems from malinvestments enabled by nearly two decades of artificially low interest rates.  I was wondering if you see that as an issue, or if you attribute it entirely to not enough tax and regulation? 
+Brandon Stecklein why do u care about the opinion of +Mark O'Connor ? He mentions that one problem is tax cuts for the wealthy. I'm interested to know if he realizes that some of the wealthy pay about 50% of their income in taxes. Of course their taxes get cut! They should! You want them to pay more taxes? How about CUT SPENDING! 
+Hunter Hart  Do you really believe that mark was talking about the rich who pay 50 percent rates?!? You're either stupid or intellectually dishonest.
+Jack Malchow oh, I'm not sure. He said "tax cuts for the wealthy" so I assumed so. Who/what does your brilliant mind think he meant? 
+Hunter Hart  Here are the 2013 individual tax rates, notice who is at a 50 percent rate:
+Jack Malchow did I say anything about a federal tax rate being 50%? I said there are individuals that pay over 50% in taxes on income. Why don't you look up California's state tax rate table and post that for us. Now that I've cleared that up for you, tack on a property tax for giggles. Again, a Democrat who's shoving ideas down our throat and making personal attacks. Now I'll ask you, are you stupid or intellectually dishonest? 
Fascism will come to America wrapped in a flag.

+Hunter Hart 
"+Hunter Hart  Do you really believe that mark was talking about the rich who pay 50 percent rates?!? You're either stupid or intellectually dishonest."

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, and move forward on the assumption you were intellectually dishonest but at your insistence I must change it to the prior.
+Jack Malchow obviously you're just a troll. You have yet to make a point. And you make no sense. 
Until we all realize that Congressional members are in it for themselves we will go nowhere as a country at best, IMHO we are already sliding backward. The FairTax ActBBB NFB would be one sure way to begin reversing some disturbing trends.
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