Surfaces or apparent interfaces to everything?

You have in The Jargon file/Portrait of J.Random Hacker what would be a personality characteristic: a neophile.

Wouldn't that interfere with the persistence trait? 

+André Esteves The latter, of course.

Not cutting through the surface to see what's behind it?

Systems synonymous with surfaces?

Well.. I could argue that there is no such thing as "logic behind surfaces" what we have are descriptions that can be reduced to simpler descriptions till we have an "atomic" irreducible description. The more reduced, the more powerful, empowering and operational it is, the more appealing it is. A hacker would have a taste and a need for achieving such level of understanding and operation.

Kind of starting programming in BASIC and ending doing hardware and assembly...

But is it a defining trait? Maybe in the past it would be more prevalent. Your time is limited. You either go vertical or horizontal in your specialization. That's why i said that a neophile would have less of that trait. He would easily jump to the next novelty and wasting time with it instead of investing in going deeper in an area of interest.

I would say it is not a "defining" trait. Many people that call themselves hackers lack it.

Or persistent interest in finding and playing whatever kind of game is behind the surface of anything? (often including places where there isn't a game, or polite society agrees to pretend that there isn't a game)

Per Wikipedia on the term 'Geek':
The word geek is a slang term originally used to describe eccentric or non-mainstream people; in current use, the word typically connotes an expert or enthusiast or a person obsessed with a hobby or intellectual pursuit, with a general pejorative meaning of a "peculiar or otherwise dislikable person, esp[ecially] one who is perceived to be overly intellectual".[1]

Although often considered as a pejorative, the term is also used self-referentially without malice or as a source of pride. Its meaning has evolved to connote "someone who is interested in a subject (usually intellectual or complex) for its own sake".

What thinkest thou to this description?

Geeks are folks that have no congenital defect, yet are sideshow acts regardless. amirite? :)

+Justin R. Andrusk ha, the best one

I think "structure" might be a better word than "logic", and "behind surfaces" feels more awkward than "under the surface"(s), but I strongly agree with the idea.

+Rob Walsh I wanted a word suggesting a bit more dynamism than 'structure'.

Those looking for order in chaos?

Well, for those I know that "Geek Out" on Karst Hydrology it isn't a bad fit ("surface" is taken a bit more literally, of course, than intended). I suspect you'll come up with a few tweaks given some time.

If that's true, then geeks would make excellent economists because they can consider all aspects of  marginal change. And if that's true, then you would expect geeks to be suspicious of politics and politicians, because their job is to ignore economic limits. And if that's true, then you would expect geeks to be largely libertarians or anarchists.

+Russell Nelson
Eew, libertarians or anarchists? Here I thought geeks were such nice people too. It just goes to show how wrong I can be I suppose.

+Paul Frederick almost everyone who follows Raymond is a libertarian

+Zachary Bittner Do they all lack a sense of humor like you too?

Then there's the definition in the Jargon File.

http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/G/geek.html

+Russell Nelson does have a point -- many "geeks" have some homo economicus circuits in the brain in place of the regular kind, which may explain the appeal of capitalist-utopian fiction.

IMNSHO, anyone who speaks of "capitalist-utopian fiction" has some circuits missing in his brain.

What's wrong with freedom, Ken?

+Russell Nelson
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." --Janis Joplin

Sorry, +Paul Frederick, that was Kris Kristofferson. 

+Ken Barber it's from Me and Bobby McGee.

Yes, I know the song well.  Kristofferson is either my favorite or my 2nd favorite songwriter, and I know all of his songs well.

I'm still struggling to understand +Russell Nelson's comment above.  Maybe he's joking and I don't get the joke.

My comment was in response to +Don Marti's ridicule of the Straw Man he had set up:  I've never heard any economist, or defender of Capitalism, claim that Capitalism is Utopia.

The Utopia claim is usually something you hear from the defenders of Socialism.  In fact, it's a pretty steady drumbeat from that corner.

Now, I just happen to be reading Deirdre McCloskey's scathing review of Thomas Piketty's Capital in the 21st Century , wherein she claims:

"...the right can be accused of utopianism as well, when it asserts without evidence, as do some of the older-model Austrian economists ... that we live already in the very best of all possible worlds."  

But she cites no examples.  And I can't think of any off the top of my head.

+Ken Barber it's hypoerbole. Obviously he doesn't mean an actual utopia just that some people believe that capitalism is by far the best system to the point of religious ideology, that no system present past or future can possibly compare to it. 

+Ken Barber yes , it's Kristofferson and yes , he's quite the genius

"...some people believe that capitalism is by far the best system to the point of religious ideology...."

Really ??  Who has ever said that?

+Ken Barber
Kris may have wrote it, but Janis was famous for singing it.

Kris also sang it.  A lot better than Janis ever did.

And I'm a Janis Joplin fan.  But those weren't her words.  They were Kristofferson, pure Kristofferson.

But if we're quoting...


I rather admire Janis too though :)

Where did surfaces go in this discussion? 

I think the discussion of whose words those really are (and never forget:  it's Kristofferson that owns the copyright) -- is a discussion of the { structure | logic | whatever } behind the surface, with $SURFACE being defined as "the only person whom you've heard perform it."

Which I guess makes me a geek.  With which all of my high school classmates would heartily agree.

And at the risk of hijacking this already meandering thread (sorry Eric) bask in the glory of To Beat the Devil

+Ken Barber $SURFACE? You a Perl man? :-)

+Ken Barber
Well Kris doesn't have to worry about Janis singing his song anymore. At least not live anyways.

"Worry?"  He made tons of money off of her recording!  And still does, every time it's played on a radio station somewhere.

+Ken Barber You mean somewhere people still listen to radios?