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To raise awareness about the #millionhoodies march and general online campaign I've posted the picture below on my social networks. This was the response on one of them.

[REDACTED]: Um no. This guy IS suspicious. I would totally purse clutch and traffic dodge to avoid and I'm not sure of the message here. March for hoodies?

[REDACTED]: I grasp the point racism is rasicm, no dress code needed. But we need to watch our PR and how our message is distributed. The above is not helping or helpful to disseminate the message. It's an image of a thug in a hoodie. Treyon was not a thug, he was a child and this is the image that should be used. And the main goal is to make the "point" as EASY to grasp as possible. We can march and protest and leverage petitions, but if our attitude is, "read between the lines to get my point", then we move no one. We also need to utilize the most powerful, personable images we have. This guy is not one of them.

Elon James White: Oh HI [REDACTED] I'm the image of the "Thug in a hoodie." Do you know who I am? Do you know what I do? You said that THAT's an image of a thug in a hoodie and TREYVON WASNT A THUG. Ma'am, I'm not a thug. I'm an engaged political commentator with a background in I.T. I throw dinner parties and build studios from scratch. But YOU saw a thug in a hoodie.

Do you understand the problem now?
Good Luck Natalie's profile photojennifer “Mamma Bird” davis's profile photoCortney Templeton's profile photoLiz McLellan's profile photo
how nice! they proven your point so very easily...
slow clap of irony
oh Elon! The world is populated with idiots.
WHAT ABOUT YOU IS THUG? Other than an extra 15 or so years and some neat facial hair, and oh my god a cap, how is that picture of you any bloody different from Trayvon?
That cap and hoodie must have some black-text-on-black-background gang symbols that I missed.

Ugh. Fuming.
*UPDATED* : "[REDACTED] I'm sure youve very accomplished, and my comments don't take away from that. But I see a thug in a hoodie. You may not like it, and I dont know you, but I can ONLY see the photo. We disagree. I can stomach that."
"If the negroes aren't (forced to be) smiling, they must be thugs!" White folks and their performative needs.
blink blink
but she never explains WHY it looks like a thug... what makes this picture a thug.. are there white guns in the background that only they can see... are you in invisible handcuffs?
I HATE it when they double down! Just take your lumps like goddamn adult!
Preach Elon, PREACH!
FML, oh I mean FMLFNSATDT (fuck my life for not smiling all the damn time)
Wow...just wooooow.
[REDACTED] needs a virus cocktail
An argument about preconceived notions about race are argued against with........ preconceived notions! WHOO! So glad this country is post racial now or this sort of thing would be very problematic.
What you said, Trent. the most important thing is to be "NOT Black"
"I see a thug in a hoodie. You may not like it"


"Your hoodie triggers my prejudice. You may not like it"
That's the perception we're fighting against. Not surprised the person is Black at all - the villiifcation of Black males affects everyone's perception.
Maybe so, +Shareef Jackson but we would think that a fellow AfrAm might be able to see our humanity, despite a hooded sweatshirt. Neal's photo just popped up on the page...and he still looks like Neal. In a hoodie. You all still look like yourselves in a hoodie. Every teenaged boy I've seen on the METRO in the last few days has made me feel a pang...what if one of them looks suspicious? They are just coming home from after-school activities & acting crazy like a 15 year old is supposed to do! But dangerous when Black in a hoodie? [REDACTED] is an idiot. And likely not around any young Black males. Who wear hoodies! I can't think of a Black man I knwo who doesn't sometimes wear a hoodie..including my 74 year old father!
[REDACTED]'s ignorance is suspicious
You forgot to say "I Brunch HARD"
[Redacted] believes that her seeing "a thug" is more important than whether or not a person "is" a thug. So, I'm curious about who she means when she says "us" and "our message".
P. C.
her manner offends...
Actually +Leila Jane the FB page that this broke out on's owner had already made a brunch crack about me being suspicious. Her friend did not get it...
You know what, I think that you have missed a teachable moment. This is what the whole Hoodie thing is about. As a single Black woman, who moved alone to a city where I didn't know Anyone, I am suspicious of EVERYONE.
I, however, know that there is a difference between street smarts, racism and just being a big ol' scaredy cat.
This person thinks in images, words won't work. I vote you take a backed-up photo of you in the same pose, eyes uncovered, in your big bird hoodie to illustrate to them their perceptual issues. :) or just post the twib where you order a latte on your smart phone.

They probably still won't get the point.
don't get me wrong, I don't think everyone dressed a certain way is a "thug." People in suits can have alterior motives. a straight up racist killed Trayvon Martin.

I vote you also use that blazered up hat picture of you, with suspicious over your eyeballs, and something like "this is the SAME PERSON" on the bottom...

Actually, I think I am going to take a hoodie picture and put it up next to my Med School graduation picture....OOOHHH I can use my MEHARRY hoodie! YES!
You know what +Leila Jane? I for a moment thought "YEAH LET ME SHOW THE 2 PICS TOGETHER!" but why should I have to? Why do I NEED to prove that i'm a respectable negro via IMAGES in order to have "thug" not be my title? Why can't i say "I'm not a thug" and people accept THAT. The more I have to prove myself the more I resent it. A white dude on my FB just shared a pic of him in a hoodie and pointed out "No one will call me a thug or question me." That's a hard ass truth to swallow when as a Black Man I've been told I'll be questioned virtually everyday of my life.
That's just it, I don't think you SHOULD have to.
But I think it helps prove the point.
AHH #millionhoodies maybe we need to get real about WHAT aspect of the photo is scary to almost everyone. It is not always the color . . personally, I am concerned about anyone of ANY COLOR I see on the streets that looks as if they are trying to hide their face - unless it is cold and we are all hidden behind mufflers and hoodies. That act: to hide ones face, is a classic tool of a criminal not wanting to be identified. It is the CULTURAL ADOPTION OF THE HOODIE by gangs (and the rare bank robber:) OF EVERY COLOR that has ALL folks afraid of hooded strangers in the streets. Add to that the racism of many . . . and sadsadsad it is a formula that adds up to murdering innocent people. We SHOULD have the freedom to wear what we want without judgement by others, but as a single woman expereinced in the ways of others assessing my clothing, I can tell you: That is not going to happen anytime soon. NONE OF THIS JUSTIFIES or REDUCES the TRAGEDY of TRAYVON'S MURDER or the deaths of others murdered or attacked by fearful people or police. The sorrow so many thousands feel about he dehumanizing fantasies and relations that exist between humans needs to turn to action - and the #millionhoodies campaign is a beginning - but recognize that in your picture it IS your wardrobe that is the fear trigger for many, not your skin color.
Trayvon was walking in the rain. Might be a good reason to have a hoodie up, wouldn't you think?
Based on +Gwenette WriterSinclair's assessment, I should assume my former coworkers feared me almost daily because I wore a hoodie - with the hood up - in an effort to keep warm in the office. No one else in the office was dressed like me; they were business casual. Yeah, blame me and my wardrobe for your fear. That makes perfect sense.
+Trent Warren +Elon James White
I think my point has been missed.

I am not saying that you NEED to put up a sign in your daily life to say that you aren't a thug or up to no good. I wear a lab coat all day and have an ID around my neck with MD after my name, and people are still scared to sit next to me on the shuttle bus. it is bananas

I am saying that if you are trying to make it a POINT on the internet that racial profiling is wrong, putting up different pictures would help to make that point. It shows how ridiculous this is. Just like this meme (which I LOVE)
The kid was walking in the rain - who doesn't put their hoodie up in the rain?
+Gwenette WriterSinclair If I am to go by that thought process. I should be fearful of every person wearing a Cop uniform. I've never seen the hoodie as a cultural anything, it's been a piece of clothing worn for comfort in my eyes. I'm not sure where the link between crime and this piece of clothing comes from. Bandannas maybe, clown masks yes, not hoodies for me. Also to say that it's the clothing that brings about the fear seems a little shortsighted.
It's hard to be in a gang all alone. Trayvon was walking in the rain by himself. Gangs wear hoodies now?
+Elon James White I can't take much more of this assault on my soul. I reject your reality.fingers in ears lalalalalalalalalala
+Gwenette WriterSinclair - Ma'am, the "of every color" argument is not the best here. The idea of the "Suspicious Negro" isn't one i made up simply for this post. It's something that P.O.C. have to deal with on a regular basis. My face wasn't covered in that picture outside of the SUSPICIOUS. My friend +Fahnon Bennett wears hoodies all the time with the hood UP because he gets cold easily. So now he's terrifying? A hoodie has been a part of FASHION for years now. In NYC you can go to the whitest of white hang outs and there will be people with hoodies UP. They will not be called suspicious. My wardrobe in that picture is that of a UNIVERSITY hat, an 8 BIT MUSIC FESTIVAL shirt and a hoodie. Because you can't tell the difference between that and a gang member isn't my fault. A hoodie isn't the tell-tale sign of gang membership. Its the tell-tale sign of someone who likes hoodies and might be cold or in inclement weather.
+Kahlief Adams I AM fearful of the cops... and then I am torn, cause I love a man in uniform...
I read black originally that's why I was so shocked but I shouldn't be.
+Leila Jane I love women in uniform too.....until I am frisked and told that I "fit the description". That drops the libido a bunch of points.
+Elon, I guess we all need to go out and get a homeless sweater like Aaron's. Then maybe Black people won't be "suspicious"? Cuz I've had the police called on me for shopping too slowly in a Crabtree & Evelyn.
We're so afraid people are going to accuse us of being racist that it's kind of hilarious.

Look, if I walked into a business meeting wearing baggy jeans, I wouldn't expect people to take me seriously. You dress for how you want to be portrayed. If you want to dress "thuggish" (ugh, as a former Atlanta resident, I hate that word), then that's your decision. It's your choice. But you have to deal with the consequences in how people see you.
yes. I was picking out sample sized toiletries because the departmental receptionist (who was bout 65) was going on her first cruise. I found about 15 things I liked & was going to have them made in a special basket for her. When I had just handed the chek to flinchy white salesgirl, the police came running in...hands on holsters. She just blushed. They kept looking at me & asking her "is everything OK?"
+Randi Harper Trayvon Martin WASN'T in a business meeting he was walking from a store back home.
+Coqui Negra it's sad you can't even spend your money without people thinking you up to something.
+Randi Harper, but is wearing a hoodie inherently 'thuggish'? I'm pretty sure Mark Zuckerberg never had to deal with being perceived that way.
I also used to be routinely reported to security for shopping in the bulk foods aisle in a supermarket in Glen Burnie. (BTW, if you don't know Anne Arundel County Maryland is racist as all hell)
+Gwenette WriterSinclair

Criminals have also employed the use of scarves, gloves and other articles of clothing to carry out their crimes. Suppose we should stop wearing those too?

What you're advancing is dangerous thinking, and illustrates why this march is necessary.
+Michael Bernstein he didn't have a big label that says "SUSPICIOUS" covering his eyes. He's also usually clean shaven.
+Randi Harper ...wait, so a teenager walking to the corner store in the rain - wearing a hoodie isn't appropriate? There's a big difference between being in meetings and walking to the corner store. A hooded, warm, piece of clothing in the rain is thuggish?

And that's why we've also seen a bunch of white kids getting frisked, accosted, or accused of thuggishness for wearing hoodies, right?

Just look at how threatening it all is:
+Randi Harper I didn't know "dress the part" applied to walking down the street, in public, minding your own business. You know that "thuggish" can be portrayed in many different ways depending on so many different factors? So would you advise rape victims that they should have "dressed the part" and wear something less "rapey"? You see that slope over there, kinda slippery.
Gee +Randi Harper so it's OK if people view you as suspicious and kill you if you are wearing a hoodie?*
My first impression when I saw this photo (without reading the text) was: "that looks an awful lot like the guy I beat down with my motorcycle helmet when catching him breaking into my apartment garage". Similar facial hair. Hoodie was up. Covering the eyes makes a huge amount of difference, though.
+Randi Harper Who decides on what's thuggish? Is it a hoodie and baggy jeans? What if the jeans are skinny jeans is it still thuggish? What if the hoodie was BAPE or had an ironic quote on it? Would that be thuggish? Are these rules the same for all races? I can tell you the last question is absolutely no. My mom would get mad at me for wearing a hoodie when i was younger. Not because I was a thug. Not because only thugs wear hoodies. She was afraid some other person would jump to THAT conclusion. Do you not understand the problem in perception here?
Thuggish? Really? I didn't know there was a dress code. I'm in the Midwest and that's common attire cause it's COLD.

I can't live my life & let people determine my clothing choices because they have preconceived notions of what a thug looks like.

Hood doesn't equal thug & I'm tired of people acting it's right because that's how it is instead of looking at the reasons why it's seen as thug attire.
I know actual thugs & yall wouldn't even look twice at them cause they don't wear hoodies... smh
+Coqui Negra never once did I say that it was OK to kill anyone. I'm not engaging with someone that wants to put words in my mouth. I was attempting to have reasonable discourse.
Omigod these comments. Stop and think for one FRACKING second before posting about being "taken seriously" if dressed a certain manner.
+Elon James White I agree that there is a problem with perception. Clothing shouldn't define a person. But on the other hand, the image posted here was deliberately inflammatory. The image posted here does look suspicious. Partially due to the word SUSPICIOUS covering the eyes. :)

Then again, I live in Seattle now. When I first moved here, I couldn't tell the difference between employed and the homeless because everyone wore hoodies and dressed in layers. It's a difficult message to get across on the internet vs. local community because this perception is so varied based on region.
There is real racism out there and I think this shooting was racially motivated. But the black community has a problem with idolizing and imitating criminals. The existence of racism does not absolve them of responsibility for that. For decades there have been music videos where black artists are explicitly glorifying crime and violence, and people in the community dressing exactly like those artists. Any white person who's seen the thugs being imitated, can recognize the imitators to a certain degree. Some people aren't so good at recognizing whose style it is, and think a hooded sweatshirt counts. Is that racism? I'm pretty sure a white teenager with droopy pants is just as likely to be perceived as a criminal as a black teenager with droopy pants. Where did droopy pants originate? Prison.
+Jamie Nesbitt Golden I don't think that +Gwenette WriterSinclair is "advancing dangerous thinking." As I said earlier, as a single woman living in Houston by myself, I am suspicious of EVERYONE. I think that being a woman is a big part of that. There is, however, a difference between street smarts and racial profiling.
+Coqui Negra just because you didn't agree didn't mean it wasn't reasonable. Anyways, disengaging now. I hope you find more constructive ways to argue.
Oh Jesus H. Christ! I am out of this thread. Because Elon is not going to like what I have to say going forward
"I was attempting to have reasonable discourse." Ah. I see. Not like all the unreasonable negros, yeah? #ToneArgumentFail
+Coqui Negra don't even get me started on being stalked while shopping. I will make those heifers bring me ALL THE CLOTHES to try on, have them running all over the store to get this and that, and then leave without spending a dime.
Sigh. Why do you have to bring race into this, +Chris Chinn? Ok, I'm backing out of this and muting this post now. I really wanted to discuss this, because I thought it was an interesting post. But I'm not going to be attacked. I wish you all the best of luck, but I suggest that next time you find someone with a different view, you try conversing with them instead of attacking them. You may be able to change their minds instead of just making them feel like black people are scary.
Unfortunately +Randi Harper you don't need to say that "It's Ok to kill anyone"... just by saying that u need to wear certain attire to be taken seriously gives credence to anyone who felt Zimmerman was right in his response.
+Randi Harper Wait. The picture was INTENTIONALLY inflammatory? Outside of a GRAPHIC over my eyes that was an outfit i put on. It literally is what I just wear sometimes outside of the house. I'm sorry that I didnt smile more or maybe shave to make myself more appealing to the masses. I literally just got dressed and took a picture. Do you understand that THAT'S the problem? That me just throwing clothes on makes me look like a criminal in a lot of peoples eyes?

+Jeff Weiss Seriously?
+Jeff Weiss Although I do agree with the fact that SOME parts of black entertainment culture has been pushed out and adopted by some black people, the idea that a white teen in that kind of dress would be treated or viewed the same i think a little off. Many would say "why is that young white child co-opting such "thuggish" wares?" "Who is he hanging out with?" Most of the people who dress with the sagging pants don't even know where it comes from, which is even sadder. Thanks for the post.
I cannot believe she said that +Chris Chinn
What in the entire of fucks?
Wait guys, I'm half white, let me translate Randi's statement there:

"Well, I would have graced you with my reasonableness and I wanted to have a conversation, but those people just wouldn't LISTEN to my unsupported assertions devoid of history, context, or even minimal reading about the topic at hand.

I was going to be a Nice White Lady (TM) but then they wanted me to know history, or context, or care about dead negros or something instead of basking in my presence. I don't know why they're so ungrateful.

I mean, I was trying to tell them how to be less suspicious. Is it so hard to smile for massa, I mean, to not look so thuggish?"
walks by post yo, +Elon James White I'm not sure how you do it, but you magically attract all these trolls to your social network threads.

Sir, sometimes, the most reasonable response to a situation is to tell somebody to "shut your face, assbag" and keep it pushing, but then again, I'm Destro, you shouldn't listen to me...
+Randi Harper Wasn't being attacked, but her reasoning was super flawed. I don't understand how people can jump into a post, seemingly not understand what it was about. make an assumption, then jump out because now she's scared. What the hell.
To Gwenette, Randi, and all the other derailers here...

Y'all need to go read this and then think about what you're saying. And then read it again and then think some more:
Jay R
+Randi Harper Are you SERIOUS? This entire issue is about race. None of us have to "bring race into it". The fact that you don't get that, came into a space discussing race & perception, claimed to be reasonable, but then disregarded & devalued the experiences & valid anger of people who have to LIVE this reality because you don't agree with it is the epitome of privilege.

If you want to be an ally -- or reasonable, as you stated earlier -- stop talking & making this about what's important to you. Instead listen to & learn from what the people who actually experience this have to say, especially of that makes you uncomfortable.
I find it interesting that +Randi Harper felt like she was attacked when re-reading over the posts... it doesn't read like an attack. Maybe she should take her own advice & be open to listening to other's opinion. There is nothing reasonable about a young man's death nor is it reasonable to remove race, prejudice & history from this horrible event.
There's so much fail here that I can't quite figure out where to start...
The problem is all we scary people of color "attacking" the poor widdle special snowflake feelings of the derailers here. Why we gotta be so mean????
I just...I mean really...I'm a couple years out of college and I'm about to go back to grad school. I would argue that every college student (at least in the midwest) has at least one hoodie. It has nothing to do with being a thug and the perception that it does makes my brain hurt.
+Jeff Weiss I am not sure of your point. Can you clarify. It may help.

By the way, My son dresses like Elon. Sure he's 12, but in the eyes of society, he isn't given any other name than "Fits the Description" or "Suspect"
My 50-something brother (who has never been to prison) was sagging his pants before it was cool. Lots of styles have strange origins, +Jeff Weiss. The point is that NO one should be shot for rocking them. 
This is one of the bad side effects of the Cosby Show. People now demand we look at Cliff Huxtable to not be a threat (Problem of the black archetype). Also to compare wearing of hoodies to Business attire is a fallacy. You compare it to casual wear, not business clothing. A black person should not have to dress like he is going to a job interview when he leaves his house in order not to appear as a thug. Also he shouldn't have to wear khakis and an arglye shirt. To often black men are guilty of suspension by breathing. And a major problem is people quoting false crime statistics. Black men do not commit more crime or violent crimes than white men. Look at the official FBI Crime Statistics.
I'm working on a post for my blog with pictures of Trayvon in his hoodie and my obviously California blonde blue eyed 15 year old son in his hoodie. Frankly, I think my kid looks way more like a thug than Trayvon...but...the point is - no one ELSE would I am sure. And the thing is - they are equally innocent of ANY thuggish behavior. But I know in my heart that my son could have walked through that apartment complex completely unchallenged. Even if he had a crowbar down his sweat pants with the intent to break into a car or an apartment. HE would have been fine. Trayvon was not. Breaks my heart.
Sad but not surprising. Takes a lot of brains to be smart...

Good job on +Elon James White for using himself to expose it so ironically.

BTW I do think +Randi Harper needs to be educated, not yelled at (if you actually want to change her mind). I think the viewpoint she has seems to be coming from ignorance, not hatred. Of course her being yelled at on the internet and jumping to the "black people are scary" conclusion is troubling.

Also: I will be at any #millionhoodies march...
Gee, I can't imagine why anyone would yell at someone for being deliberately obtuse about the murder of a young black man. I am utterly mystified! /sarcasm
Alright y'all, this has been really interesting. 'bout to head to Orlando!! On my way to the airport to have my afro-puff felt up by the TSA! Woot!
This is the problem with how blacks are portrayed in the media and how we are perceived overall. Often we are not looked at as individuals. If one a black artist reps "gangster" anyone who looks similar automatically falls in line. So it doesn't matter who Elon is, he's not an individual, he's dressed like what we've been shown thugs look like so he must be one.
I still don't understand why +Jeff Weiss is still trying to make that point, Jeff we get it, we understand it, I bet if you were to ask any random white person where that "style" came from they wouldn't know either. Again this is not about his hoodie, it was about the how Zimmerman thought that a young black man in a hoodie was suspicious. For no reason expect for a biased way of thinking.
I actually am pretty dangerous if you count video games... Stone cold killer.

+Marie Camacho my statement only applies if you want to change her mind. Just saying that there was zero chance of that happening the way it went down. If you just want to vent, then that's cool too (and understandable).
The Tone Argument is classic derailing and I refuse to entertain it.
+Fahnon Bennett I've been gaming since I was 5, you know how many people I've "killed" over the years? Most of my killing was done is boxers and bunny slippers. I think I will try and make that the new suspicious outfit of choice.
+Lauren Susoeff Was my taco meat out in my hoodie picture? That has know to scare some women off. Foiled again :)
I am astonished. ASTONISHED. I am both fighting hyperventilation and tears.

Black humanity does not require a fucking dress code. A black man wearing a hoodie is "dressing thuggish"?????? Wow. Just wow. WOW. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW. I'm sorry, I'm unable to articulate what I am feeling because I am seeing +Jeff Weiss and +Randi Harper articulate how pervasive and accepted the dehumanizing and animalizing of blackness is, particularly black maleness is in our culture. It breaks my heart. Literally. I am so astonished that people not only think these things, because obviously they do, look at George Zimmerman and his continued non-arrest. But these people feel no qualms about sharing this bigotry in a discussion that is about critiquing it????? And feel entitled to "educate" us as to why the discrimination is warranted and justified??? My God. My God. My God.

And I too, am half white, or quarter, however you choose to view it. I have tons of white people in my life who are anti-racist and work hard to dismantle this system of oppression, so it always hits me in the gutt when I see white people spew this with such authority and conviction. It's painful. A little boy is dead. DEAD, He was murdered and NOTHING has been done about it. My God. The depravity of white supremacy man.
I'm about ready to usher everyone out in an orderly fashion so I can burn down this thread. There are some super privileged White people saying really tone-deaf things and refusing to hear the words coming out of their own mouths. I'd have to be in the middle of robbing a bank or convenience store before American society would decide that I look suspicious in a hoodie. Most Black men would just have to walk down the street when it's chilly. If you can't see that difference and how problematic it is, this "discussion" won't go anywhere. And if you start making generalizations and proclamations on "the Black community" and "Black culture," you've already lost. Step away from the thread, think hard about why so many people might have just started yelling at you, and do some research.

#DearWhitePeople #LoveBill
Might I remind us all of the oh so adorable, "Barefoot Bandit". There were fan pages for that man. He was lauded as genius in the media. never once was he described as appearing thuggish.
if jeff says "Technically" I swear I will flip my whole desk.
Yes, the rain is good reason to put hoodie up . . . Yes, millions of college students wear hoodies. I am far from being a college student and I wear a hoodie:) I am speaking to the common fear folks have of others who hide their face. From the perspective of the man following Trayvon, the rain did not exist as a reason . . . What was clear from the 911 calls, is that for the man who allegedly shot Trayvon, it was about the color of Trayvon's skin. But to deny that many people are suspicious of the hoodie attire - regardless of the skin color of the person wearing it - is to deny a cultural reality that is not necessarily a racist issue. We cannot create solutions if we do not acknowledge all aspects of the problem. I agree it is not "fair" , but I also admit it is a reality. No one should have to dress in any particular manner to "prove" themselves in any way. But, in our modern culture people ARE judged by their clothing . . they are rich, they are poor, they are gay, they are a slut, they are a nerd, they are a foreigner, they are a criminal . . . it is part of the problem. Racism is not an isolated prejudice . . . it lives in a constellation of them that reinforce each other . . . that fueled by fear turn into hatred and spawn heinous acts.
What in the everlasting fuck is this thread, #doe? Like, word? Who are you pod people? WHO!??!!!??! Look, I'm 5'1. A few folks on this thread have seen me....I'm small. I'VE been profiled for wearing a hoodie....a college hoodie, no less. All while with my homie, who is a white girl and 5'11 and Amazonian in all senses. She, the physically imposing got no such profiling. The short Black girl did. Please re-evaluate your perspective if you think that is remotely cool. Also, shut the hell up. I have no time for your ignorance. skips back to Tumblr
what "cultural reality" is there WRT white kids in hoodies +Gwenette WriterSinclair ? The cultural reality is that a Black male is viewed as a suspect even if he's secret service with the POTUS.
+Gwenette WriterSinclair This entire thread and original post exists as an acknowledgement of the reality that Black males (and to some extent females) are judged negatively based on their clothing and more importantly as a call to end that.
+Gwenette WriterSinclair wasn't it raining as this child was walking down the street wearing his hoodie?! I think that being said, it proves the point that wearing a hoodie doesn't equal suspicion.
"But to deny that many people are suspicious of the hoodie attire - regardless of the skin color of the person wearing it - it to deny a cultural reality that is not necessarily a racist issue."

I suppose that many people are suspicious of the hoodie per-se, but how did the hoodie get that suspicious connotation? Race probably had something to do with it. But even by the kindest, most generous interpretation, you at best have just turned this into a class issue. Which is really no improvement. Intersectionality is a bitch, that way.
Lord, this thread! If hoodies (and ill-fitting jeans) were to disappear from the face of the earth, the goal post for "thug looking" would be adjusted so that society could justify it's fear. The burden is not on a total stranger (going about his or her business) to make you feel safe/comfortable.
+Trent Warren t Warren I think that society does admit being black and male and young is a far too risky "position". That racism is evident in the decisions of our juries and the sentencing of our judges is clear in the records. The problem is that many of our society's individuals BELIEVE that the combination of young(optional)+male+black equals being a criminal, so they believe the immense proportion of young black men murdered and black men (and women) in prison - as well as other dark-skinned minorities - is "natural". THAT is what should be criminal, but it is difficult to outlaw thoughts and beliefs.
I would like to say, right now, that the only time I have ever been viewed as suspicious by anyone, was when I was blatantly ignoring police while protesting. Even then, nothing really happened...(and lots of onlookers were cheering us on)
+Bill Humphrey is coming in this bitch with that LOGIC. Gon 'head, boy! I'm so excite! lol
+Kahlief Adams I did NOT say it was clothing alone that brought about this incident. It is abundantly clear from the 911 recordings that is not the case. I do notice though in many of these posts folks are jumping to conclusions and making judegemnets about each other based on only the few words we post here. To assume we "know" a person based on an intial text impression . . . Is that not a form of prejudice???
+Gwenette WriterSinclair Perhaps you are saying that to convince yourself, which is fine. But none of that argues the necessity to undergo racist assimilation, to bow down in order to survive because white racists and white supremacy is so incredibly violent that young black children must do the extra work to protect their survival on a daily basis by choosing attire that somehow magically hasn't been categorized as "thuggish".
Justin Bieber is real suspicious.
Everything about him inflames me.
+Gwenette WriterSinclair You said: To assume we "know" a person based on an intial text impression . . . Is that not a form of prejudice???


You are seriously equating your comments, that highlight your white privilege and comfortability with the structure of white supremacy, with a system of oppression that this country was founded on? Not comparable. At all.
This may be going out on a limb, but I would venture that jumping to conclusions about people based on limited text-based interactions is not exactly on par with the massive societal prejudice against young black males who don't conform to White-created standards of professional attire 24/7.
PS: Were people jumping to conclusions or just reading your words? Something to consider.
Joining +Bill Humphrey on the #DearWhitePeople front. "You need to take responsibility for what you choose to dress like" is horrendously inappropriate in a thread that's about how a boy got shot for doing absolutely nothing.
+Jamie Nesbitt Golden I never proposed that we change the way we dress. Please re-read what I have written. I am stating that to deny people are judged by others based on what they wear is to deny a cultural reality. Different people and cultures have different perceptions as to what clothing means what, so to speak . . . I do not agree the judgments are valid. I do think you have made an assumption about what I mean that goes far beyond what I texted. Is that not a form or prejudice?
+Gwenette WriterSinclair If you're going to ask people to re-read stuff in the thread, I'm going to direct you to my earlier response to you pointing out that this thread EXISTS because we are acknowledging that this culture perceives a certain group negatively for dressing a certain way AND we are trying to change that. You seem to be resisting something here, for reasons unclear to me.
+Danielle Richardson I did NOT say that ALL people fear those in hoodies. Please re-read what I DID write in my posts. I do think you have made an assumption about what I mean that goes far beyond what I texted. Is that not a form or prejudice against me?
Well you know, when white folks shoot unarmed POC in the back, it's "an unfortunate accident and they should have known better" but when POC say something mean to a white person, it's JUST LIKE A LYNCHING.

You know, the words come out of your mouth, a white person is kidnapped, hung off your grammar, the punctuation brings forth the community to hold a BBQ and body burning, and the sentence structure takes photos and keeps body parts for memorabilia.

Oh Pharoah, when will you let the white people go?!?!?
I'm just going to quote +Bill Humphrey and maybe the point will get across:

"I'm going to direct you to my earlier response to you pointing out that this thread EXISTS because we are acknowledging that this culture perceives a certain group negatively for dressing a certain way AND we are trying to change that."

"I'm going to direct you to my earlier response to you pointing out that this thread EXISTS because we are acknowledging that this culture perceives a certain group negatively for dressing a certain way AND we are trying to change that."

"I'm going to direct you to my earlier response to you pointing out that this thread EXISTS because we are acknowledging that this culture perceives a certain group negatively for dressing a certain way AND we are trying to change that."
+Elon James White THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR PREJUDGMENT OF ME: Your wrote about me: "Because you can't tell the difference between that and a gang member isn't my fault." I NEVER SAID THAT about myself, nor did I imply it was true of everyone or anyone else. It is these snap opinions and assumptions and BELIEFS ABOUT EACH OTHER that are the basis of racism and other forms of prejudice.
Hand 1: Snap judgments in a thread on a social media site


Pretty much equal?
+Gwenette WriterSinclair you are derailing the post... You are now making it about you & the suppose prejudice against you. I re-read your posts & the way your words are written is inferring we should police our attire to make perfect strangers comfortable.

+Bill Humphrey have already mentioned that the thread EXISTS because we are acknowledging that this culture perceives a certain group negatively for dressing a certain way AND we are trying to change that.

You are choosing to continue trying to prove that we are being prejudice against you instead of discussing the original post.

I'm sorry...when people are not treating your humanity with respect who have every right to tell them to "Fuck off." You don't have to be reasonable. You don't have to be nice.

You can't change someone's mind about an issue when that person DOES NOT EVEN SEE YOU AS A HUMAN BEING.

+Gwenette WriterSinclair Unfortunately, most of the people on this thread don't know each other personally, nor do we communicate on a regular basis. Being clear and concise is important. Otherwise, people will judge you by the words you type out. Choose wisely.
Everyone please leave the thread. I'm calling the fire warden, pulling the alarm, hosing it down with gasoline, and torching the place. We don't need to hear how White people are being oppressed by people of color drawing attention to things you haven't considered before based on life experiences you've never had.
"It is these snap opinions and assumptions and BELIEFS ABOUT EACH OTHER that are the basis of racism and other forms of prejudice."
The basis? No.
A seventeen year old kid minding his own business got shot and killed for little to no reason, like hundreds upon hundreds of black males across this country for decades, but the real problem here is that people are jumping to conclusions about a White person based on extremely poorly chosen words in an internet thread, tone-deaf arguments, and resistance to hearing people challenge those?
+Gwenette WriterSinclair If you feel you have been taken the wrong way, why aren't you apologizing for offending people and reword it so that what you mean can be taken in the most literal way possible? I think that is a common courtesy to do instead of telling others they are wrong when it is clearly more than 1 person that feels your words expressed something other than what you say you have intended. That's what I do when I come across wrong
Jay R
#TBWhite does not play! 
jen g
I just saw the part where +Gwenette WriterSinclair called Zimmerman "the man who allegedly shot Trayvon". Zimmerman confessed!! There is no question that he shot Trayvon!!

Ok. Deep breaths. Burn it down, +Bill Humphrey . Burn it ALL.
+Kara Sykes - Did these folks really think they was gonna come up in here "Stop judging me!" "Black people love crime!" "Suspicious!" "Oh wait, ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!" Dehumanization and derailing all over the place and not get push-back?

Wow. Seems nuance is missing from this thread. Ever hear of using the word "you" in general terms? The basis of racism is believing that one "race" is better than another and therefore setting up society to reflect that. Seriously? Can people read a dictionary from time to time?
+Lorraine Gore About me?? Why do you think I feel it is about me?? I am commenting on people making snap judgements in genral. It is not that the comments are about me. This post has NUMEROUS judgments made by people about others based on comments. A judgement - an assumption about the writer - is different than a response. Judgement is what prejudice is all about. If we do not see how we all can do that when we have a passionate belief, we will never understand what prejudice IS. It was ERRONEOUS, BIASED JUDGEMENTS ABOUT TRAYVON that lead to his death.
Marcus T.
Change the way you dress, because you have to deal with the consequences of other peoples' perceptions. You know who else says things like that, +Gwenette WriterSinclair ? Rape apologists. 'Cause, y'know, the victims were ASKING for it. </sarcasm>

Victim blaming automatically gets your point thrown into the fire, as far as I'm concerned. And this is SO not about you. At this point, I'm gonna have to take your soapbox, chop it up, and let you use the wood to build a bridge to get over yourself. #realtalk
Gwenette. Stop. Just stop. In the name of the mighty steamshovel and John Henry's Hammer by which you are digging yourself into the deepest of holes, please stop. Everyone -- including the White people -- is telling you that you made a mistake and that you're making it worse, and you're refusing to stop and even consider that they might have a point, when there's such consensus. The fact that you keep harping on a ridiculous sidetrack "point" is in and of itself making it about you. So stop. You're accomplishing nothing, persuading nobody, and making a lot of people very upset -- unless that's you're goal, that on its own should be enough to get you to stop. When people are actually telling you clearly that they're angry about something you did or said, you should listen.
+Lorraine Gore Yes I said that. it was an example of how people make snap judgments of others based on almost no knowledge of that person. How can one take the position that prejudice is bad and then proceed to prejudge someone?? That was - and still is - my point.
+Marcus T. I was planning to use the soapbox wood as kindling for burning this whole thread to the ground.
You are still making about you +Gwenette WriterSinclair & you seem obsessed with continuing your point instead of discussing the tragic murder of a young man... but go ahead obviously proving you're being prejudged is more important...

To Non-Derailers - Can we get back to the subject at hand?
+JP Fairfield Yes please.

I am genuinely curious as to whether we should allow derailment to occur? Is engagement productive? Is it helpful? Or is it perpetuating the problematic paradigm? Reviewing this, I am just angry, but we have now been successfully derailed by the classic "this is about me and my emotions" argument and while I am very very annoyed, I also think we need to have these discussions. We need to tell white racists and their allies how problematic and violent and dangerous they truly are, bc that is part of dismantling it, yes? Thoughts?
I typically assume two types of spaces - one is where I have the real discussion with actually reasonable people who don't barge in on some bullshit.

The other space is the educational space. Funny enough, though, the educational spaces I work in don't engage foolishness either, though. For example, it may either be a public post with no commenting allowed OR a public to read, but posting limited to the vetting folks.

I think there's a value in a public record of what a conversation is like when it's not all shat over with privilege, but obviously it depends on the site and social forum as to what your options are to make it work.
+Aislinn SolButterfly After a certain point, derailment doesn't help when the derailer has no intention of taking a second look at their words & wondering why they came to certain conclusions.
A lot of the time, derailers always comment that ppl didn't read their words.. when in reality ppl did and the maigc invisible point they were trying to get across wasn't really clear
I guess, what I'm struggling with right now, is whether or not, this thread's derailment did further damage to us as people of color and anti-racist whites fighting against this system of racism that has allowed a young Black boy to be murdered. Because while engaging with them, we are giving them a type of validation. Maybe, we need better strategy? Just asking.
+Gwenette WriterSinclair +Randi Harper +Jeff Weiss I'm gonna need you to stop spreading your ignorance all over this thread. Please go get yourselves some education about white privilege before attempting to engage in these sorts of discussions again.

Here's a start -- this quote from Tim Wise's blog post today breaks it down perfectly:

"If Trayvon Martin had been, say, Todd Martin, a 17-year old white male, in the same neighborhood on the same evening, it wouldn’t have mattered that he was wearing a hoodie, looking at homes as he passed them by, or fiddling with his waistband. These, it should be noted, were the apparent indicators of criminality that Zimmerman felt compelled to share with the police during his 9-1-1 call, before opting to chase Martin himself, in brazen defiance of their explicit instruction to stay put. Had he been white, Martin’s humanity would have been clearly discernible to Zimmerman. But he was black, and male, and that alone inspired Zimmerman to conclude that there was “something wrong with this guy,” and that he appeared to be “on drugs,” a judgment Zimmerman felt qualified to render based on his extensive background in behavioral psychology, bested only by his prodigious law enforcement training, and by extensive and prodigious, in this case, I mean none whatsoever.
+Aislinn SolButterfly - For me, as an ally, I feel dialogue, education, and sometimes even confrontation is important. I don't think this is hurtful for me. I feel this is part of my job as an ally. For me, no, we may not be giving them validation if we don't engage...but the larger system of whiteness validates their views...and they never have their views challenged...and other white people never see these views being challenged. White folks live in a privilege bubble...I feel one of my jobs to burst that bubble in whatever ethical/not threatening means necessary.
+Carolyn Gretton Interesting that to point out biased judgement based on minimal exposure to someone is considered "white privlege" and ignorance. It is EXACTLY what killed Trayvon. George knew nothing about him except what he saw in the moment, just as we know nothing about each other except what we see here in the moment. Yet it seems many here are slamming judgments into print about the whole person, not just respondoing to the actual comments. Is that not prejudice?

I am sad for you that you think judgments on an internet thread is equal to judgments that MURDER CHILDREN. Truly...
Because you are truly missing real, actual life. Ignorance is not bliss, it's robs you of your empathy and humanity. That's sad.
+Aislinn SolButterfly I don't think there has been damage done per se. I think that what happened here has a lot to do with someone being stubborn enough to believe they can do no wrong with a mixture of not having a clue. That then turned it into everybody else trying to show why the person was wrong. It doesn't show anything bad against those who are anti-racism (regardless of color on the skin) but it shows that we all care. If people had attacked such first person and said because they are a certain color they are wrong, then it would be a bad thing. That didn't happen. That being said:

George Zimmerman's father wrote a letter to one of the newspapers saying that he is Hispanic and has Black Friends and therefore isn't racist. My response back to that is then why did he call him a racial slur? I think there is a real problem when people use their slight differences to say they cannot be racist. I think it is time for more awareness that racism comes from everywhere and judgement of people based on color, accent, clothes they wear, etc needs to stop. Personally, I hope movements like #millionhoodies can not only catch on, but serve a purpose for the horrific slaughter of a beautiful young child. I can only hope that we can come together as a nation to see that this problem that is here needs to stop and those who do these crimes need to be punished.
+Aislinn SolButterfly This Audre quote right here sums it up:

Her basic point is that a lot of privileged folks will claim they "want to learn" as a defense from actually changing their behavior - instead of actually doing any of the minimal effort that would show good faith in this claim (such as reading up on the thing, listening to other people's input, etc.), they just take the most obtuse route possible and then turn around and blame everyone for not helping them when they were "just trying to learn".

It's an old tactic and pretty much why I usually only give foolishness 1 comment, at most, to get it's shit straight before going straight to mocking. If I have to operate in spaces with derailers and such, I'm going to point out the hypocrisy and self-deception which basically informs their behavior.

Mostly, I just look at it in terms of blood pressure and stress- do any of us need MORE stress from hateful people who've so deeply normalized their hate that it's "being polite" to tell people why it's ok to kill black children?
+Gwenette WriterSinclair *BLANK STARE* What part of THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU AND YOUR WIDDLE FEE-FEES did you NOT understand? Did you even bother READING the link I posted?

+Bill Humphrey has it right... time to burn this damn thread to the ground.
This post may be of interest to some of you. blog We all know when we are prejudiced "against" but do we all know when we are prejudiced? I do not claim to know myself that well . . . George was in denial of his racism. Racism will not "go away" or be clear to those practicing it, until we understand how we all pre-judge in our daily lives based on no or little information/experience. Until we understand how we chose to relate to one another as people with labels instead of just indivdual people.
Link noted. This still isn't about you though. NEXT. *files nails*
I don't even understand where this is going anymore...
+Chris Chinn - Yes, and then that's when I just flame the crap out of them. Complete mock mode. All caps. We're going in.
Did she just compare Trayvon's death to people criticizing her ignorance on G+? Did that actually just happen? I am not speaking to her directly because I want to believe she's a figment of my imagination.
Thank you so very kindly +Chris Chinn. Copied below:

"Traditionally, in American society, it is the members of oppressed, objectified groups who are expected to stretch out and bridge the gap between the actualities of our lives and the consciousness of our oppressor. In other words, it is the responsibility of the oppressed to teach the oppressors their mistakes. I am responsible for educating teachers who dismiss my children’s culture in school. Black and Third World people are expected to educate white people as to our humanity. Women are expected to educate men. Lesbians and gay men are expected to educate the heterosexual world. The oppressors maintain their position and evade responsibility for their own actions. There is a constant drain of energy which might be better used in devising realistic scenarios for altering the present and constructing the future."
— Audre Lorde, “Age, Race and Sex: Women Redefining Difference
+Jasmine Lee - I will get out that White Privilege Bingo board! SWEAR TO GOD!

Why are people testing me like this?! I WILL BINGO THEIR ASSES!
Anyway, y'all, about halfway through this thread, I went and blocked those folks.

I suggest doing the same. You can't outlast privileged entitlement - it's determined to get the last word and will say progressively more fucked up things as you go, because at the heart of it, it's "How dare YOU PEOPLE tell me what to do and not harken to the words of your betters?!?"

It's like a screaming child throwing a fit. At some point, you put them out the room so the grown ups can talk.

Again -- digging a hole by not hearing the words coming of your mouth as somebody else would and putting them in context.
When the comments are running against you like 15:1 saying you're being hurtful and you're wrong, the bare minimum action should be stepping away from the thread to think for a bit. Maybe they don't have a point, but they probably do.
is there any way to sve this thread? Because I need to have it bronzed
+Aislinn SolButterfly You aren't going to convince the derailer here, but the thread and it's derailment now exist as an record for others. And that has a net upside benefit, though possibly small. Back in 2009 there was a big hullabaloo in the science fiction blogosphere that was dubbed "Racefail". Having that clusterfuck of an argument as a record to read was very illuminating.
Hey we definitely did not make her happy, but she stuck it out. That's got to count for something.
Or somebody can just be extra-defiant/resistant.
+Gwenette WriterSinclair jesus you are so wrong, from the first post to your most recent. The fact is that you came into a thread that is directly and purposefully confronting the fact that race changes how people's attire is viewed, and started talking about how no it's not about race. You come in wildly swinging with your opinions, thinking that you are AWESOME for popping in without even bothering to read or understand what the hell is going on. Because you're just SO enlightened and free from racial prejudice.

You then proceed to cause a whole bunch of drama to swirl around yourself by not listening, not acknowledging that your statements might be exactly what was being talked about. You get offended, you get pissy and start yelling at people about how they are prejudging you.... AAaannd try to claim at the same time that you're not making this all about you.

Fuck off. Seriously. You just came into a post about the murder of a child and started yelling at people. I don't care if you think you're right, I don't care if it's a valid discussion to have. You are being abusive, disrespectful, and having absolutely no empathy. Because this isn't just about Trayvon. It's about the legions of other black people who have been killed or otherwise assaulted simply because of societal messaging. Just for living their life. It's about how vulnerable the friends, family, children of the people you're yelling at are... how vulnerable THEY are.

Yet you think it's cool to yell at them about how they are "prejudging" you (off of things YOU say)? Cry me a mother fucking river.
Folk here have done exactly that +Aislinn SolButterfly "stretch out and bridge gap between the actualities of our lives and the consciousness of our oppressors. " Some folk don't fucking get it and they never will. I see absolutely no value in continuing what is really non-discourse. Zimmerman is still free. Trayvonn is still dead and there are those who will not ever be convinced that it was his hue that killed him. Why give it anymore energy?

I am weary of trying to prove and bridge gaps with folk who wont even met me on the bridge.
of course it never cedes willingly, but she did not run off with her feelings hurt...oh, she fought back, true, but you have just asked her to examine a privilege she probably didn't know she had until 2 hrs ago. You youngsters have to learn to see the small victories sometimes...the war is not won, but you're moving forward. She's going to think about his. and wrestle with it. That's a start.
+Coqui Negra I just don't think its worthy of any type of congratulations at all. In fact, I think what she did is very problematic. I don't think we should applaud white people for engaging in critical discussions where their privilege is dissected. We should congratulate ourselves for doing the hard work of withstanding their ignorance and continuing to provide ourselves with a challenging and critical discussion while resisting derailment.
I didn't congratulate anyone. and asking ANYONE with privilege to dissect it goes against all nature
+Coqui Negra - I think that ones that bowed out when they knew they weren't going to get anywhere are more likely to think about it than stubborn folks unwilling to to even consider their privilege.

I hope she does think about it, but...
"In the name of the mighty steamshovel and John Henry's Hammer by which you are digging yourself into the deepest of holes"

And with that +Bill Humphrey wins the internet today.
*puffs mightily at her screen trying to get it to move and give everyone a coffee scented second wind*
There is so much to be said about how the people responding here and on FB are doing EXACTLY what shouldn't be done, and demonstrating the problem. Y'all say it so much better, I just, ugh. Yelling and cursing. Yelling and cursing. S'all I got. :/
I talked to Randi in another thread (she came here from my re-share, and hadn't actually heard of Trayvon Martin before she stuck her foot in her mouth in this thread), and she gets it now. I had to make the analogy to anger over a woman's rape case (and postulating an analogous image of a woman with a bar across the face saying 'asking for it'), but the coin did drop.
You know +Lorraine Gore you may be right...but I think the immediate withdrawal means an immediate end to thinking about it. I think we have to get past the white woman tears before any change of heart can come...I don't think that is immediate. Either we want to fight the good fight or we only want tot talk to people who agree already. Now I'm not up for every fight every day, so anyone can be excused for throwing up their hands and saying "fuch this sh1t" when they aren't feeling it. But I really think SOMEBODY is reading this and feeling like they might want to look deeper.
Derrick Bell said there is redemption in the struggle.
+Michael Bernstein Acknowledged. However, it'd be nice if +Randi Harper came back here and apologized for ignorantly spouting off here on an issue about which she admitted knowing NOTHING. I'm glad she appears to at least be starting to realize her privilege, but I'm sick of white folks spewing their ignorance in nonwhite forums, then princess-flouncing out of the room like *they're* the ones being hurt in this scenario.
+Carolyn Gretton Ding ding ding. You do something stupid and hurtful, come back and apologize for it. Own Yer Shit.
+Coqui Negra - Absolutely agreed. I know for me in my education. Like, I was never that obtuse I don't think...but I was an still a privileged ass. I said dumb shit. But, retreating allowed me to think about it. The time to think about it. You can't think if you're always trying to react. At least that's how it was for me.

+Aislinn SolButterfly - That's what it is. Like a black hole. Here it's different. But privilege doesn't exist in a vacuum. Neither does change. Now she (and all white people) have to go out into the world where their views are the norm, and not obtuse, and confirmed over and over and still maintain that desire to become more than their become more educated...more empathetic...more in-tune with the realities of privilege...just more. Ya know?
Well said Elon! Im a broken women after hearing all of this. I feel confused and I want to lock my babies in the house! That is problematic .
Is the pit of whiteness where white folks go after jumping on the klanwagon?
+Kahlief Adams Hey, I tried many times to evacuate the thread unsuccessfully. I kept running back in to pull people out, but alas. I won't burn the thread down until everyone is out. This is responsible, controlled e-arson for justice.
+Bill Humphrey You might need a e-Kurt Russel from e-backdraft to help you out once the timber starts to go up. If you need help hit the cubicle signal and I will try to help.
+10 for the volunteer firefighter brigade.
Can I declare Free Post? Shoutout to LJ Blackfolks Community!
I am so tired of being ashamed of white people. I am ashamed of Zimmerman's violent, fatal white privilege. I am ashamed of the white privilege in this thread because it can lead to needless suffering and death. This is not academic - people are dying over it. A child is dead. All Zimmerman knew about Trayvon before his murderous assault was that he was black and was wearing a hoodie.

If you are white and aware of white privilege, congratulations: you are a recovering racist. And the best you can ever be is "recovering."

I can mix up some gun powder for this thread. Let me go get my salt peter.
Yes leprechaun, that is why I didn't mention Carolyn, bill or Vdubs. I have already expressed my undying love for them but I don't believe I've threatened to love and hug the fuck out of Erin yet. I have a list of folk that need visiting and huggining.
Where I'm from, hoodies are standard dress code for anyone enjoying casual wear and under 90 years old, but a hoodie with the hood up is unusual. For whatever reason, we prefer to wear a completely separate warm hat rather than use the hood on our hoodies. That said, someone walking around with their hoodie hood up of whatever ethnicity or gender screams, "Emo!" However, I know some neighborhood watch types who'd be happy to pick off the emo (of any ethnicity) kiddos for being "diff-runt".
Sir, no doubt this wouldnt be happening if you were wearing a special crown, Eddie Long style, instead of that hoodie.
I'm loving the fight & the love in this thread
The first half of this page is like a white wall of ignorance.. So glad to see people are standing up to this bullshit.
This whole page if full of prejudicial and racially biased statements. "White wall of ignorance" is one of them. We cannot stop prejudice if we practice it . . .
+Bryan Cole this page is is about prejudice, yes? About racism in particular, yes? It is about understanding how individuals judge others, making assumptions about them based on knowing very little about them. It is about the tragedies that occur when people act on those prejudices, which is what George did in judging Trayvon. In these posts I see numerous slams and judgments against people - many people, not just me. It is not important to me what strangers think of m;, that is not the discussion I am trying to share. I repeat, it is not about me . . it is about how many people here seem to think it is OK to express prejudicial and racial bias in their comments. As if they do not recognize prejudice for what it is. Racism is about assigning qualities to a group of people based on their skin color. Read the comments . . they are loaded with prejudicial statements about blacks, about whites . . . how can making assumptions about others based on their skin color and this name-calling be helpful? How can this, as you say, help "make people aware of things about race"??
You're not helping.
Gwenette, this is about how when white people or white identifying people are racist BLACK & BROWN PEOPLE DIE - this is not at all like having your feelings hurt because people call you racist.
+Gwenette WriterSinclair, let me make this super simple, explicit, and clear, since you are having trouble digesting what other folks have been telling you:

Racism is not just prejudice over race. It is that plus a difference in power and privilege. While you and I may occasionally encounter prejudice over being White, quite simply the world is arranged such that we are usually given the benefit of the doubt, have access to more resources, our opinions are listened to and taken into account more often, we don't have to fear unprovoked harassment and assault by the police, and so on, all by virtue of the color of our skin. In other words we have White Privilege. I myself have the added advantages of being male, able-bodied, reasonably neurotypical, cis-gendered, averagely attractive, over 6', average weight, and heterosexual. I would guess that you probably have the advantage of being Christian, but won't speculate further.

You have indeed encountered some (relatively mild) prejudice over your race in this thread. However, that prejudice does not rise to racism, because you have the option, the Privilege, of simply avoiding it. That you haven't taken advantage of that option is to your credit, but what you've done instead is assert your Privilege over the other (non-white) participants in this thread by insisting on a false equivalency between white prejudice toward non-whites and the reverse. Which is racist, because the two are manifestly not equivalent.

A man, coming into a thread of women discussing a case of rape, who asserts in the most sincere possible way that men have to deal with women's prejudice against them as well, and to please stop bashing men indiscriminately because not all men are rapists, is still frankly being a Sexist asshole, because the whole of society is oriented around giving men privilege over women, and he is asserting that Male Privilege to have his opinion be given at least equal weight in a forum where he should instead, if he wants to participate as an ally, be supportive and listen more than he speaks.

In just that sense, you are asserting your White Privilege in this forum, and that is racist.
+Michael Berstein I never said this nor implied it:" . . . insisting on a false equivalency between white prejudice toward non-whites and the reverse." You assumed that of me. I do not think there is such an equivalency at all. You also assume I do not understand "white privilege" or the cultural ramifications of differences in power and privilege between races and classes in most societies.You also assume I am white - which is not a given in the virtual realm. I am trying to discuss the core origin of all prejudicial behavior - which is fundamental in racism or sexism. I am not implying any kind of equivalency between any cultural expressions of racism or other types of prejudice. I am - btw - not a Christian. Again, you assumed things of me. And perhaps your perspective, colored by your assumption I am a Christian, gives you even more assumptions to "believe" about me. This is what I am trying to express is happening in this discussion. This is the fundamental basis of all prejudice - racism or otherwise. It is the justification for differences in power and prvilege. If we cannot - in this discussion - forego making assumptions about each other and address what is said instead of what we assume, how can we expect others to do so?? I am not trying to "assert" anything. I am not asking anyone to stop "bashing" anyone; I am asking that we listen to each other rather than judge, call names and make accusations based on assumptions. And to +Gry Poulsen . . . my feelings are not hurt and I am not concerned that people call me anything. My posts are not about me or my feelings at all. Please read all my posts; I am discussing how much of the communication here is being distorted by assumptions. And that is the core, fundamental behavior - the making and believing of assumptions about others - that breeds the racism that led to Troyvan's death, and the death and imprisonment of thousands of others today and millions of people in humanities past.
+Gwenette WriterSinclair you said "I am trying to discuss the core origin of all prejudicial behavior". Why? What makes you think this is an appropriate forum for that topic? What makes you think you have the right or obligation to derail the conversation onto that tangent?

You are presenting yourself as a White Female. I won't apologize for taking that at face value. I also won't apologize for guessing you are Christian, since I made that explicit (giving you the opportunity to correct me), and it doesn't affect the core of my argument anyway.

You have repeatedly tried to change the conversation from being about Racism to being about Prejudice as the 'root cause', and repeatedly used people's hostility to your statements as an example of Prejudice. Like it or not, that is asserting a primacy for Prejudice in importance, and using yourself repeatedly as an example sends the message that you think that prejudice in both directions is equivalent.

" I am discussing how much of the communication here is being distorted by assumptions." Yes, and most of all it is being distorted by your assumption that your opinion should be given equal weight in this forum about this topic. That assumption? White Privilege. And attempting to change the conversation to one about the conversation is derailing.
Like I said, child, tantrum, out the room. "Why aren't people listening to MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"
By believing that you have the right to direct the conversation rather than simply respectfully contribute to it, you are exerting white privilege. If you are not white, then I guess that it is just a jerk thing to do...
ummm . . . did not intend to, as +Michael Bernstein stated, "derail" the discussion. I never saw a post that said the discussion was limited to a specific perspective. Some of the comments I read I understood to be about racism and prejudice. I also see multiple other ideas on the tragedy itself, on the millionhoodie event, on the pix originally posted . . . I have seen hostility here from many to many, not just to me. As I said, the hostile or negative comments' contents are not what concern me, it is that we do so to each other at all. (BTW, I do not feel it is appropriate to use a comment made about someone else as an example. Read the posts and you will see dozens of negative comments and name-calling directed at numerous people.) I am not insisting anyone give any kind of weight to my opinion,a ny more than anyone else is that expresses an opinion here. I am just discussing my opinion as a person. People can comment, block me or ignore me. That is how social media works. What I do see happening here, as have many that have left this discussion, is that there is an "assume & attack" mode that seems to be favored over questioning each other about our meanings . . . and I find that sad.
See, a black baby is dead for the crime of being black in front of the wrong person. This is essentially an online mourning area for that. Now that you know you can across as walking in and making it about you, maybe now you understand the reactions to you doing so. Intent is not really the point. If Trayvon's intent to buy some goddamn Skittles and go home did not count, why should your intent count?
Grumpy old troll who lives under the bridge.... (The troll from Dora sings this..and I hear it every time there is a troll on a post)
+Gwenette WriterSinclair, now that multiple people have told you repeatedly that you are derailing the conversation, do you believe us? What will you learn from this experience? And what will you do differently in the future?

"I never saw a post that said the discussion was limited to a specific perspective." You stepped into a conversation largely among Black people discussing their experience of Racism. That should have been clue enough that the conversation was revolving around their perspective. Trying to shift the conversation away from that perspective was rude, at the very least.

Sure, there were multiple topics in the conversation. But that doesn't necessarily give you, or me, license to introduce another new topic, and certainly doesn't give us license to insist on doing so when we have been told repeatedly that the topic change in question was not welcome. Doing so anyway in the face of such resistance? Asserting White Privilege.
Wait, Gwen McCraycray is still doing her MeMeMe dance? For fuck's sake. There's a point where beating a dead horse is just not okay to watch. Like about about 100 comments ago. -__-
It's very obvious she has no intention of learning anything. Give me a break.

You don't get to discuss your opinion "as a person" while dehumanizing others by trying to assert your privilege white opinion into the discussion. Get the fuck out. #No.
+Michael Bernstein No she doesn't believe anybody. She shows signs of those who cannot ever be wrong. One of those signs were when she came in another day and still proposed her situation. Still insisting that everybody reread what she said.. and cannot fathom that after people have reread it, they still come to the same conclusion. That right there is a sign of such thoughts and behaviors.
Oh +Gwenette WriterSinclair

Here is why people are pissed at you - in your first post you said:

_maybe we need to get real about WHAT aspect of the photo is scary to almost everyone. It is not always the color . . . _

Let's talk about what that statement does. For all of us who are racially conscious, you have, with your words, erased the value of lived experience. You are racially unconscious and your life experience (whatever it is) led you to this current privileged position where you think everyone else is in the same blissful slumber of white privilege.

In saying that "we need to get real" about the image, you are responding to the assertion that race is central to the suspicious assumption. Therefore, that assertion of racial discourse, in your eyes, isn't reality, and anyone who has experienced racial profiling based on the combination of their dress and skin color, is delusional about the fact that race has anything to do with it.

THIS RIGHT HERE informs every comment you made thereafter. So much of the struggle against racial injustice is trying to move people like you to understand that your act of erasing the very real and material experiences of racial injustice is the lubricant for the racial engine. Racism doesn't work without your point of view. Stop. Think. Apologize. And learn.
+Gwenette WriterSinclair I have an honest question. Are you actually reading the responses from everyone else and trying to understand where they are coming from, or are you looking for a reason to get offended?


Cuz it really, really doesn't feel like you are even interested in understanding the full scope of everything that is going on. You are holding so tight to "ZOMG prejudice is wrong stop being mean to me" that you are missing the fact that the prejudice isn't just someone thinking ill of you over the internet. It is friends, family dead. It is jailtime for the same things white kids brag about. It is an unemployment well above the national average.

"Racism is baaaaddddd" is simplistic, childish, and acting like most people here don't get it, at a level you and I will never understand, is an insult.
+Marcus T. ----------------------------->
Don't make me laugh in this thread
Hoodie is just the latest profiling tool.. myself, I get nervous around "pale" guys in suits and ties.. I know that is wrong, but I have been legally ripped-off by so many of these types.. 'jus sayin..
Michael.. thanks for the heads up. Already moved my comment.
I post this on twitter, but I think it summarizes the whole problem. From the shooting to this thread.

The attitude is: White opinion (and delusions!) matter more than black life.

The pushback is at us, for daring to put life, to place the issue of murder, of blood spilled, of breathe no more, of a life of a child, above these white people's words and tantrums for attention.
They can't understand that, pretty much, in my view, no conversation can be had when you're that far gone.
I'm sorry, I just caught up to this thread.

+Michael Bernstein did I just really read that someone had no idea who Trayvon Martin was before you had to tell them yesterday?
+Erica Joy, Yep. That said, I'd be kind of embarrassed to admit how recently I first heard about him myself. The bubble of White Privilege is something even allies have to work at to overcome, and I know I don't do so consistently.
+Michael Bernstein Knowing that I'm in your Circles (thanks for that!) and learning that you only recently found out about Treyvon tells me that I'm not posting enough about this matter. Time to take action.
+Erica Joy, I'm following almost 5k people, and can't see everything that they post. The circles I pay most attention to are all tech-related, including one of 525 Women in Tech (that's the one you're in). So posting more often wouldn't necessarily help much to make sure I saw it unless you reached truly spammy rates of posting.

But, you have my explicit permission to add me to a circle that you notify when some new issue or story like this comes up to get it on my radar. Just don't use it for every related post.
This has been a roller coaster ride. I laughed I cried I blinked for moments at a time. There are some incisive thoughtful and sometimes brilliant comments and ideas and then there are those people who no matter what will refract Black reasonableness through their prism so it becomes Black rage. Yes that was directed at +Randi Harper +Gwenette WriterSinclair and +Jeff Weiss Unlike Jackie Robinson and President Obama we should not have to mute our justifiable rage. It shakes me to the core that I have had to have that most painful and scary and infuriating conversations with my 14 year old son on how to comport himself when approached by police officers. Running names like Eleanor Bumpers, George Jackson, Sean Bell, Amadou Diallo, Abner Louima, Wendell Allen and on and sickeningly on. Now I must have another even more fucked up conversation with him. The fact that white parents do not have to have these conversations is a damning sign of privilege.
To be fair I think a thug dinner party sounds pretty neat.
+Michael Bernstein There are sooo many who don't know about it eventhough it's on news now and everything. I posted the same picture of me in my hoodie on fb... and you wouldn't believe (ok, maybe you would...but it SHOULD be unfathomable) how many didn't know about slowly I am seeing more of my friends posting about it. I got one girl start posting about it and sign the petition. Even today, a friend of mine who lives in florida posted something about some horrific murders in the past to Black people and by reading it you see how horribly wrong they are...along with Trayvons. I asked if she signed the petition...she hadn't heard about the petition! Shockingly there is a bigger response for this on FB than here. And some of the worse comments have come from here...were people read the father's statement and believe what he said, regardless of what all this evidence shows. It makes me so sick to my stomach and it makes me ashamed of people in general. Don't feel bad at how late you found out..there are always those finding out later....and always those disgusting poor excuses for humans who just don't care.
My Gawd, this thread refuses to give up the ghost
A woman I know who was gang-raped in the 70s - whom the police did not believe because of the clothes she wore, the fact she was young and pretty, and because she'd had a baby in her teens - has been very upset about this case exactly because it does remind her of what happened to her and how she was viewed/blamed for the crime and the criminals were not even sought, let alone held accountable. Luckily she escaped with her life. I do think there is a legitimate correlation. This country loves to blame the victim and/or attack the victim's credibility/integrity. Another example worth listening to is the police interview of Brandon teena after the rape and before the murder. The justice system in this country is fucked up.
Question, and PLEASE spare me the argument of "The Dangerous Hoody" or ignorant responses from those so ensconced in afforded privilege that they refuse to acknowledge their own racial bias. How do we, Mothers/Parents, of Black Teenage Males protect our babies from the Zimmermans of this world? What? How? What are the "Rules?" Play it cool and keep walking? Run? Yell and scream for help? Call me, anyone, someone!? This man pursued Trayvon, in spite of being told not to follow. He lost site of him, yet continued, he approached him, he yelled at him, close enough to see the skittles and tea, and yet... he murdered him. What else could Trayvon had done? My heart breaks, is broken. I keep asking, seeking an answer. I guess I'm in denial. It cant be.....nothing? Nothing we can do? Nothing we can say? Nothing we can teach? NO THING!?
Is there a website where all of the details of this tragedy thus far are compiled together? I've only seen fragmented news articles and would like a more comprehensive picture. Especially since the details in the fragmented news articles often don't match each other in the cases where they overlap.

Also, it is my understanding that this dirt bag sited the wearing of the hoodie as a contribution to Trayvon's supposed suspiciousness (which I think is counterintuitively good, as it provided a rallying point for the they-shouldn't-be-necessary-but-we-live-in-this-crappy-world protests), but I really think this would have happened without the hoodie. I think if you're deranged enough to believe shooting a kid armed only with Skittles and tea is an appropriate response to anything they might be doing, then one article of clothing isn't going to be the deciding factor.

That being said, as someone who has never thought someone in a hoodie looked suspicious outside of a surveillance video, I can't fathom how anyone else could think so. I don't know anyone of any race between the ages of twelve to thirty-five who doesn't own a hoodie. It's not "thug attire," it's "I want to be warm and comfy" attire. Sure, the rappers or whoever wear hoodies in their violence-glorifying videos, but that's not because they think hoodies symbolize "thug life," it's because they're people and that's how people dress. It really baffles me that there are people who think common article of clothing + certain skin color = suspicious. It's not really analogous to the whole "girls who dress slutty are asking to be raped" disgustingness, it'd be more like "any woman with a car is asking to be carjacked" because the majority of women don't dress "slutty," but the majority of people have a car. It makes absolutely no freaking sense to me. 
Thread is TL:DR for the moment. But I am old enough to remember the virulent racism that haunted young Black men in starched white shirts, whose posture was exemplary in any group of humans who managed to get themselves hung, beat and jailed in spite of being proper upstanding church going and very well dressed.
Also - if I am to go by stats - every white guy over 35 who is wearing a suit in his avatar is representin like a white collar criminal...I should therefore not trust him from the get go if I have my information and instincts aligned....but we don't. Do we? Why is that? FBI got $2.4 billion in restitution orders in 2010-11 alone. That's billion with a B... the most interesting word there is "restitution".... I don't believe that has anything to do with criminal records or jail time...
And now having read I am gobsmacked.
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