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Fascinating article I read yesterday about near death and out-of-body experiences.
Ugo Cei's profile photoGreg Cunningham's profile photoKaren Jemmett's profile photoRichard Williams's profile photo
+john steve Science is always determined to avoid that one simplicity. Whatever grooves them. Doesn't change anything.
The fact that she was able to recall the dialogue between the doctors and nurses while she was undergoing surgery sounds astonishing but the things like seeing her deceased relatives and observing a white light embracing her soul looks fake.
Interesting. They are doing experiments with transcranial magnetic stimulation to replicate a lot of these experiences. I wouldn't mind experiencing a controlled environment, with my heart still beating and my lungs still taking in air ;)
Having recently been in an operating theatre I can tell you that this:

"At this point, Pam’s out-of-body adventure transformed into a near-death experience (NDE): She recalls floating out of the operating room and traveling down a tunnel with a light."

can also be caused by ketamine.. so so weird.
very interesting story, i guess the english soccer player, fabrice muamba experienced the same thing
I'm astonished at the number of people offering their commentary without reading the entire article.

Thanks for the brain candy +Casey McKinnon
what a story, give me chills
I hope to see my life flash before my eyes and then +Casey McKinnon give me a High 5 for my near death experience!
"These findings strongly challenge the mainstream neuroscientific view that mind and consciousness result solely from brain activity"
"NDE studies also suggest that after physical death, mind and consciousness may continue in a transcendent level of reality that normally is not accessible to our senses and awareness. Needless to say, this view is utterly incompatible with the belief of many materialists that the material world is the only reality."

Of course to the "ghost in the sky" hating atheists, none of this is valid, someone just made it all up. +Ugo Cei
Been there, done that. The article explains parts of it well enough although a bit sparse on others.
Ugo Cei
+Kent Morrison ""These findings strongly challenge the mainstream neuroscientific view that mind and consciousness result solely from brain activity"

Well, having read the whole article, I can say for sure that such a conclusion is totally unjustified, given the facts reported. The only conclusion that the facts warrant is that we don't know for sure what causes NDEs.

Now you can keep believing your god of the gaps, if you wish.
+Greg Cunningham I agree... having "explained" in the title is misleading... since, you know, it wasn't really explained at all... just researched.
True, it's just research. Taking into account the patient is likely drugged, the brain is misfiring, and the mental state is about the same as when you're not sure if you're awake or dreaming, so most of the testimony is basically the words of a delusional person.

Actually you think you're completely conscious but our filter of reality and senses is wide open as well as our connection between conscious and subconscious so we're experiencing our dreams as real mixed with overexposure to reality. It's a bit overwhelming to say the least, and can't be taken as any kind of logical fact.

Both dead and living relatives or anything else in our memory or anything imaginable can seem quite real, for example.
Ugo Cei
I forgot to mention that you can be an atheist and believe in ghosts or some kind of afterlife. Being an atheist only means not believing in god, so your comment is completely off the mark, +Kent Morrison.
Is it necessary to live beyond the life ??
+Ugo Cei - wait, now this I do not understand:
From a materialist and scientific rigor standpoint, and without faith in a Creator, where is there room for immaterial beings (of ANY kind!) or life beyond the biological end of function?
And for that matter, if there is some place in (an athieist's) view of the universe for immaterial intelligence, how can there not be the tiniest possibility of an immaterial crabby old guy with a beard on a throne in a cloud that you shouldn't piss off? LOL (i am kidding about the God image, now, see, sense of humor?)

You have crossed me up with your seemingly contradictory belief channels.
Ugo Cei
I only said that you can be an atheist and still believe in an afterlife. Just ask any Buddhist.

You can be an atheist and not be a materialist, you can believe in spirits, ghosts, reiki, homeopathy, dowsing, ESP, and a whole lot of bullshit and still not believe there is some grey bearded guy in the sky.

True, usually atheism goes hand in hand with skepticism, as a rational mind is usually skeptical about any divine claims, but that's not by all means guaranteed.

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god, no more and no less.
+Greg Cunningham - now this is good plain talk about the seeming realism of hallucinations. You are quite right about this ability of our minds to create entire, seemingly "actual" scenes.
In the Mystery Schools, this would be a good place to begin the discussion of what you indeed are willing to concede is "real", and why, and what organs and systems you use to come to that conclusion. Then begins the differentiation of "real" and "actual".
You said ghosts - but i won't hold you to it if you do not think that ghosts are possible, because that (in my screwy view) would be consistent with a wholly materialist and non-spritual belief set.
Ugo Cei
Yes, I said ghosts. Why do you have problems with my use of the term "ghost"?
Perhaps we should not belabor the point on Casey's posting any further. Let's start a fresh conversation about whether the atheists that are reading this believe in the possibility of ghosts.
Very informative article. Thanks for sharing.
+Kent Morrison Correct. It's something like a 20ms delay before all external stimuli reaches conscious awareness. All of what we sense is processed into a form that our minds can comprehend and handle. It takes time to filter it all and present it as what we call reality, and that reality differs from person to person. So knowing that this section exists, it's not hard to see how it can easily be replaced with a simulation of all external stimuli creating a false reality that can't be differentiated from the real thing. If that makes sense.
+Greg Cunningham - Perfect sense! Now the last time you built something, actually physically made a thing, did you imagine it first? How accurate is your mind's eye? Are you a creative that "saw" it, or was it a fuzzy idea blob in or head?
+Kent Morrison I'm an atheist and here's what I think: nothing is worth claiming without scientific proof, but it sure is fun to dream of the possibilities! The universe and our minds are both amazing things capable of so much... I only wish I could live long enough to see everything explained, but "everything" is a tall order.
There's more to the heavens and the earth than in man's philosophies.
I wish I was smart enough to have said that, I think it came from the bible or Oprah said it.
+Kent Morrison That's a tough one. That connection to the subconscious fades over time. Like months, maybe years. At times I'd hallucinate an old girlfriend's voice as I fall asleep clear enough to make me jump out of bed. Other times there are 50 different "dreams" going on at once that I'm aware of. Very short, making sense of everything. Constantly with no off switch. I can't say if it improves creativity though. It was originally more distracting than helpful. I'd have to say fuzzy though, because I get tiny pieces of many different ideas all day.
The brain continues to fascinate me. I don't personally believe in OBE's from a "spiritual" standpoint, per se, but when I think about the brain in terms of how a computer works and allocates,dellocates, and processes data from memory upon start up, hibernation, and shutdown, I can't help but draw many parallels and imagine all the possibilities that those observations could lead to.
+Kyle Hopper you're not alone. The brain will probably fascinate and baffle everybody.....forever haha
It's what I'm trying to say :P
+Ugo Cei That's a very good article on the subject. It's completely illogical for a spirit to travel out of the body, hear and see events, remember them and then return. If only we could hear without eardrums and see without eyes and remember without all that brain chemistry, we wouldn't need them. All of this OBE stuff is explainable. I've even had dreams that the phone rings, I pick it up and talk for 5 minutes then wake up and answer it for real on the 3rd ring. It only happened in my head and my subconscious knew who was calling. :)
Sir, perhaps you need to read the bible, its obvious you haven't!. Near-death experiences happen all the time, it happened to my youngest sister, a year + prior to her final death!. She talks about seeing our Lord, and then accepted him as her personal savior. Just because, you don't believe it, doesn't make it untrue. I see in dreams things that happen both to others, and in my own part of the world like the 35W falling a year before it happened. A sister reminded me about my call to her in a panic a year before it happened. I didn't ask for this so-called gift, nor am I comfortable with it.
Ugo Cei
+Ray Garcia "Sir, perhaps you need to read the bible, its obvious you haven't!"

I have, unlike most christians. Besides, nowhere in the Bible does it talk about NDEs, so having read the damn book or not is completely irrelevant to the topic.

"Just because, you don't believe it, doesn't make it untrue."

Just because you believe it, it doesn't make it true. Science, not a bronze-age book or personal experiences, is what allows us to distinguish true from false.
I'm surprised at all the Christians who haven't fully read the bible, yet have read hundreds of novels that are no smaller. Priorities I guess. Useless entertainment trumps knowledge. But when it comes to NDEs, I'm preferential to my own first-hand experience. Less to misinterpret that way. LOL

God talks to a lot of mental patients as well, and they convince me of nothing.
Sir, the bible is always relevant, to whatever we encounter as being the word of God and getting the answers we so direly crave for our specific situations we encounter!.

I do agree with your point, I was mistaken... The bible doesn't talk about NDEs but rather, in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, it does elude to the fact of visions. Just the same, when my youngest sister was as described by her doctors as subsisting on mere life support and my family was ready to pull the plug, I protested stated that "God hadn't spoken yet". Thank God, I did, as she did return to us after two days. At that point, she said she met with Jesus and how beautiful Heaven was, but she was specifically told she wasn't ready to enter Heaven, as she had to accept Jesus as her Lord and savior. Which, I am grateful she did... My only point on this reflection is, she gave me more hope of the coming of Heaven.
Ugo Cei
Praise Jebus, +Ray Garcia, you converted me! Your story is soooooo convincing, just what I needed to be saved, thank you.
It's amazing to see all the scientific advancements to keep that poor girl on life support taken for granted and say that god simply kept her alive. If not for all that, god would have said something different and earlier. That can be assured. And it would also be the right decision. No matter what the outcome, the perception of the simple mind inserts the decision of a higher power into what can't be comprehended. sigh.
Ugo Cei
I wonder why Jebus chose to manifest himself to that girl and save her alone, and not the other millions in the same condition. It looks especially strange that Jebus never manifests himself in that way to the Muslim, Jew, Hindu and Buddhist people.... I wonder why.
Sir (Ugo Cei), Jesus does manifest himself to all, in fact he did start with the Jews, who unfortuneately rejected him, therefore, he came to the rest of us!. And in reference to Greg Cunningham, also your mere attempts to denigrate me only reflect back on yourself. I have never been simple minded, always attempt to search out facts, have had several of my own businesses and have been to several colleges and computer school, and have been on the Dean's Honor roll!. To those who would attempt to retire the bible to mere fiction, apparently you must live in a cave, as many renowned scientists study the bible for a map to treasures and the History Channel depicts all the facts as mentioned in the bible. I leave you both with the following: John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son, has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Jesus wasn't moved by people's rejection nor was He moved by their acceptance. He was moved by the Spirit of God...
Ugo Cei
If you take the History Channel for a reliable source, I feel very sorry for you. The HC is a sad joke.
+Ugo Cei Well, the Muslim teachings say that you don't see Allah until judgement, so in a Muslim NDE there is no incident of anyone seeing anyone. There's also no image of Allah already in memory, so they can't manifest him. Makes sense to me. :)
I had a fascinating out of body experience around 3.30am today. My bedroom appeared to be jam packed with the spirits of all manner of creatures - snakes, tigers, sharks, giant spiders, you name it. I live near the zoo, so I don't know if that had anything to do with it? Weird, huh? Hey, but don't worry, folks... I'm a social scientist and can rationalise these things...
NDE's are simply a surge of brainwaves in the brains last attempts to get blood to itself which produce "memories" or light down a tunnel. Pilots that are doing G-Force training have been experiencing them for along time. NDE's are simply urban legend of ignorance.
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