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'Vomiting and screaming' - why did CIA boss destroy secret waterboarding tapes?
Former head of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center, Jose Rodriguez - the man responsible for destroying secret tapes of the waterboarding of Abu Zubaydah - has given an exclusive interview to the BBC's ...
AbuMuhammad AlHindi's profile photoPaul Kundu's profile photoSandeep Deshpande's profile photoAntony Jackson's profile photo
the moral high-ground is a good place to stand if you want to get shoot by someone hiding it the dirt.
+Hasan Cheaib I would be careful with peddling that bullshit, Al-quaida has been getting increasingly pissed off with conspiracy theories about 9-11 and recently told off President Ahmadinejad for repeating the stories.

Al-quaida is still very proud of their operation and will happily tell everyone that they did it

So unless you are suggesting that Al-quaida is nothing but a US patsy and are so stupid that they did not realise that they were doing the bidding of their enemy for 20 years, your conspiracy theory is just crap.

Don't believe the CIA, but maybe believe the entire leadership of Al-quaida.

At the moment you are either claiming that the salafists are lying or that they are stupid, naive and duped.
CIA using dubious methods all in the name of patriotism of course
+Antony Jackson
why should we care what pisses off Al-quaida?
fearing terrorists is the worst thing you can do
you should always stand up to bullys.
+alastair mccoll You missed the point there - I was specifically pointing out the error (and folly) of telling a bunch of psychotic, mass murdering, terrorists that their proudest moment was the work of their most hated enemy.

If they are willing to get vocally critical of the President of Iran, they might also be upset with those who are also stupid enough to repeat this insult to them.

I don't care about pissing them off, it is the inaccuracy and ridiculous perpetration of complete bollocks that annoys me. They did it, they are quite proud of it and those on trial for it are fighting the legality of the trials/rendition/waterboarding etc, but they are not denying the actual charges, that they planned and executed the terrorist attacks on 9-11.

I would be just as critical to anyone saying that the Round-the-world yacht race couldn't happen because the world was flat and they would just fall off the edge.
The main point is whether the so-called "civilized world" has the moral high ground or not. These "enhanced methods" are clearly torture, no matter what excuses you make and and are banned in the Geneva Conventions.
Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. [Matthew 7:12] Atleast try to follow your principles.
I think there was some BS surrounding 9-11 (or, 11-9 as it should be called) im sure we have all seen the pictures surrounding the pentagon damage vrs the size of the plane that apparently hit it... How much BS is another matter tho.
Unfortunately, you have chosen a new testament quote here.

The USA has the separation of church and state enshrined in the constitution (Bill of Rights) so the notion that the principle of some of the people in the USA must be applied to everyone is a little ridiculous.

Does this also apply to American muslims, hindus, buddhists, jews, bahai. jainists etc etc etc? who don't give a crap about a quote from Matthew?

It seems clear that you have assessed this as a Christians vs Muslims fight without actually thinking about it.

Is it Sunni or Shi'ite vs Christian?

As the guys who carried out 9-11 spent time in Florida screwing hookers and getting drunk, it seems that they don't follow principles either (except when it comes to following an obscure 19th century sect that was considered apostates until the 1950's)

So maybe it isn't Christian vs Muslim or East vs West?

How would you categorize the situation in Syria, where the Shi'ite regimes in Tehran (and Hizbollah) are supporting the Allawite regime in Damascus in a sectarian war against Sunni's?

Or is this just brutal Arab dictatorships using religious and sectarian divides and imagined existential threats as an excuse for certain uncomfortable truths?
I made a general statement and this quote would be universally recognized without splitting hairs. Your sanctimony reeks of hypocrisy. If some Anglo-Saxon or European been tortured, I would like to see the reaction than.
Some one know in government that 9-11 will happen but the project to invade Iraq for WOMD story was need to Make every one think there new enemy waiting ro kill us
guys... chill it please. all religions have been used time and time again to control people and used to justify wars all through time. "christian" is a recent term first used for political reasons in the USA to bring all the segments together under one roof to try to combine the votes of those people.

All I ask is people stop blindly believing and start basing their thought processes on things that can actually be poven by experiment and the fossil record. Once you get your head round the fact that you have a limited time you will start making much more of it as the life you have is all their is.

all governments do dodgy things, ALL of them, again been proven time and time again.

If you have a problem with it, stop bitching and get out on the streets get some people that have the same problem and start protesting.
"being waterboarded 183 times"
Hey, it's not torture if you enjoy it.
He destroyed those tapes because now everybody uses DVD, so not possible to watch them anymore
+Husnain Awan You seen very hung up on the racial and national origin of people.

I am not anglo saxon, and don't care whether the psychotic child murder that is being tortured is any particular nationality.

Khalid Sheik Mohammed - psychotic mass murderer who advocated genocide and the murder of children

Robert Black - kidnapping pedophile who murdered children.

They can bunk together while they get tortured for all I care.

The people that I really object to being tortured are not these psycho's, but are the innocent voters who were imprisoned, raped and tortured in Tehran's Evin prison, the Allawites who are being tortured and murdered in Syria, those who (for the lack of a vote) are being tortured in Lebanon, Jordan, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Dubai, Sudan etc etc

So you go back to caring for some members of one sect of one religion and a couple of the least deserving members at that.

I will go back to caring as much for someones race or religion as I do about their height or their hair colour.

You have reacted with a whirlwind of racial and national assumptions which appear to only be shared with one person, you.

And (because it was bugging me) sanctimony is the act of hypocritical high-mindedness, so saying "your sanctimony reeks of hypocrisy" is a tautology.

I will not mention the high minded and hypocritical assumptions that you made to make the assessment that this applied to me, that would be churlish
from puloniti bangsal mojokerto indonesia.maybe he very very angry.hehehe,,,
+Husnain Awan Husnain, the Geneva Convention applies only victims of war. I may be mistaken but the USA never actually formally declared war on any country or terrorist organisation. They rather cleverly just mobilised their military so technically the Geneva Convention doesn't apply.

Like I say, I could be mistaken but I don't think so.

As for the waterboarding...It is torture and cruel, but so is planting a bomb that targets innocent civilians.
+Antony Jackson, I would agree with you on almost everything you said except that I don't have a racial hangup, just stating reality on the ground, and where we part company is your total pass to Israel for warmongering and war crimes and just finger pointing all the Muslim countries. Stop meddling in other people's affair and there won't be any need for criticism.
I'm guessing those tapes were destroyed because they were doing something illegal just as it says in the Army Field Manual, before Dubya got "special" permission to use the methods which are prohibited in the AFM.
+Husnain Awan I am not sure at what point I was meant to shoehorn Israel into this discussion - so far it has been US use of torture and how it applies to their criticism of Arab regimes.

When was I meant to include Israel in this? We were talking about christianity vs Islam.

Meddling? Meddling is difficult to assess, but you have to do it on a case by case basis. Should someone meddle and stop Assad murdering 10,000 people? - Yes. Would Lebanon have been better off without Syria and Iran treating it like a training ground for the last 20 years? - Yes

+Hasan Cheaib I think you must be stupid or just bat-crap crazy. America is a continent and did not "invent AIDS" The Taliban was supporting by the CIA when they were both fighting the USSR but was neither created by the CIA or is still funded by them. And Bin Laden is dead and had been a sworn enemy of the USA for over 20. I think what annoys me about your delusions more than anything, is that they completely take away any credit from the muslims in these situations. You are basically saying that they are stupid and couldn't fight the Russians without the CIA to organize, fund and supply them. You are saying that once the CIA stopped caring about them after the fall of communism, they did nothing but continue to work for the CIA and take the money. And the one decent thing about Bin Laden, that (at least initially) he was a billionaire who gave up riches to fight for and help muslims, you have reversed and are now telling the story of Bin Laden, who gave up muslims to fight for riches? You are welcome to your insane stories, but am curious how in your stories, the USA is rich, good at planning and although evil frankly, frickin genius whereas the muslims in your story are still evil, but are stupid traitors and dupes, who will do anything for a little bit of money from the USA.

Make up your (demented) mind
I don't see the validity of the human rights argument in relation to terrorists and serious criminals. To me these people (who ever they are) lost their rights when ever they start planning/ carrying out these acts. The issue I have is how can you guarantee that the person is guilty before you take action. I'd have a moral issue with this being used on innocent people.
Husnain, the Geneva Convention applies only victims of war. I may be mistaken but the USA never actually formally declared war on any country or terrorist organisation.

+Hayden Jenkins you are right; they didn't formally declare war but nevertheless, the US/NATO alliance are considered an occupying power and even when they are dealing with insurgents or spies, the Convention applies. See article 5 of the Convention:

+Antony Jackson It was never my intention to bring religion to the argument and probably, you are basing it on the Mathews quote.

Ignore that and just look at the situation fairly. If US and NATO had used humane methods of interrogations, they would have gotten far more information and support from average people and even the insurgents. 10-20 years from now, when you will look back, this will be one of the biggest foreign disasters that US had involved itself in.

Why I mention Israel? Cos, you seem to be pointing the finger only at the Muslim countries and totally ignoring Israel, which has an abysmal record in dealing with it occupied territories. We know why they do that, of course. they are scared shitless cos they have committed war crime after war crime and no one, least of all US has done anything to stop their war crimes.
What have the CIA got to be afraid of?
+Managua Gunn Iran is already meddling, they are supplying Republican Guard "experts" to help the Allawite rulers kill Sunni's.

Assad has attacked Sunni's exclusively (and has been supporting the Shi'ites in Lebanon with Iran's help)

Also, the Syrians invaded Lebanon in 1976 and did not leave for 29 years, so I am not quite sure what "stability" they provided during the worst part of the civil war.

Lebanon was a sectarian nightmare for the entire duration of the Syrian occupation, until they got moved out (slightly) after they killed the former Prime Minister

I am also not sure why you think that everyone is fabricating stuff about the Iranian regime. They have actively said that they are pursuing nukes and even the UN thinks that they are building nukes. When the UN cannot think of a way of excusing your behaviour, that is a really bad sign. Even those powers who support Iran are quite open about the fact that they are enriching uranium at levels far above what is required for any civilian program.

I am not sure what you mean by "Calling the ''conflict'' in Syria ''sunni vs shi'a'' is over-simplified. Iran's priority is geopolitical."

The massacres in Syria are Shi'ites using Allawite proxies to attack Sunnis (who are also attacking the Sunnis for their own ends) I am not sure why you felt the need the use quote marks for the idea that Assad killing 10,000 people and using tanks and artillery on civilians is "conflict"

The statement that Iran's priority is geopolitical is just nonsensical - of course it is - Geopolitics is simply the use of political power over a given territory. Iran is an area which is in another area and there are political powers controlling it, therefore saying their priority is geopolitical is a little like saying that the point of a restaurant is cooking and eating in some way.

Iran's current concern is layered.
1) The Iranian economy is collapsing
2) There is a split between the President and the Ruling council.
3) Their key allies of Syria and Hezbollah are both under severe outside pressure
4) Hugo Chavez is dying
5) They are pissing off formerly friendly regimes in Africa by shipping weapons to Salafist rebels
6) The Sunni Gulf powers are pushing back against Iran for the first time in a couple of decades, thanks in a large part to wikileaks which mean that they could stop pretending that they didn't hate Iran
7) They are pissing off the Russians by refusing to pay them to build the reactor.
the Al-Qaeda and CIA deserve each other, both are delusional and I would be afraid of getting caught out by both. Let us hope no one is ever suspected wrongly by CIA, then you can disappear without a trace. Fingers crossed.
+Managua Gunn The (very old) article you mention was a brief period when Hariri's son was basically threatened into retracting by Hizbollah. He has since reverted to his original position.

Syria didn't expect any difference in the worlds reaction, they had been killing politicians for years - this was something that simply they miscalculated.

And as for Israel in Lebanon? No I don't think they have had a role there at all, other than as a generic 'enemy' in Lebanese politics. Hizbollah is backed up by Vevek and has a very good intelligence/counterintelligence service. There is no sympathetic local population to the Israeli's and their main concern is tracking Hezbollah's weapons and troops.
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