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These dumb people really astound me...of all the things in the world they could focus on, they chose to focus about who is sitting next to whom? Good job...
 
+Patch Rowcester That the phenomenal amount of gender inequality in Saudi Arabia is holding them back on the world stage. The seating plan is rather less important than the fact that, for example, women can't vote or drive, and that only 21% of them work.
 
Well thats why it is required by law that companies hire 50% of their employees as women now. so please before we take note lets know the new laws

+Steve Mayne women are driving despite the refusal of license tho it isnt against the law for women to drive it is only against the law to drive without a license. and now all companies are required to hire 50% women and have been given tax incentives to hire women and thats 1 woman=2 men in the company so that it reduces their taxes and amount of people they have to hire. I live over there and am very proud of the woman and the times are changing
 
Yes, more laws, that's exactly what that society needs.

The only thing more dumber than creating a society where women can't work is to mandate hiring women just because they are women.
 
I don't think unqualified women should be given jobs in place of qualified men. I think that everyone should be hired equally based on skill and gender should not matter. The fact they get tax breaks to hire women is a bit insulting to me, as a woman.
 
Just to be clear: I'm not for one minute suggesting that the problem should be addressed in this way. Thanks for the insight +Madam Walid Bahnasi.
 
Indeed. This is the difference between someone who is progressive and someone who is not. Any woman with a shred of self respect would be offended by the fact that she is being hired not because she is any good, but because she is a woman. That is just as discriminatory as anything else.
 
+Steve Mayne - I know that you are not suggesting the problem should be addressed this way, but it really amazes me how people rush to the defense of cultures that are at best, oppressive and misogynistic at worst they are akin to modern day version of women slavery.

I am not saying they should change their way of life. I believe they are entitled to their opinions, but I have the right to point out the facts.
 
+Madam Walid Bahnasi That is fantastic news. I believe strongly that all people should have equal rights regardless of gender, background, skin color, wealth, race or culture.
 
+Valerie Purple He's saying that restricting women from participating in the work place, driving, ect. is why Saudi Arabia (among other countries) have relatively weak economies for their technology and population.
 
+Patch Rowcester Your comment is offensive and benighted. +Steve Mayne is on the right track. Lesson in Islam. In mosque women and men are seperated because their physical beauty is distracting to the men. In worship this is not a bad idea and certainly not dumb as they should have their mind on worship and not the "hot" girl in the third row. However, just like many religious practices is has been amplified by people that used religion to oppress people. At one time women were treated equally but separated. Before anyone starts going off on some anti-islam rant read for your self why it is and try to understand why it was dumb. Muslim men did and still do treat women well. Unlike some Christian religions in Islam having sex with your wife is encouraged and considered to be part of charity. As is doing things to make her happy.
 
they dont treat their women as people who can contribute.
 
ahh blanket statements in a religious discussion ....is that podunk i can smell???? hmmmm
 
+Robert Dagget +a million for you. :)
Thanks for telling that!
 
+Robert Daggett +a million for you. :)
Thanks for telling that!
 
+Patch Rowcester +Annika O'Brien Policies like this are intended to offset the hundreds of years of the unregulated praftice of not hiring someone due to their sex, race, and class. Yea, let me repeat: unregulated practice. Meaning while no laws were in effect, suppression happened without much opposition. That is testinomy against your anarchist predisposition. Policies like this give a group of people the chance to prove themselves capable of doing the job where previously the chance was unavailable.
 
+Robert Daggett Do you not think that both men and women should think higher thoughts while in a place of worship, rather than sully the activity with base thinking? They should use discipline and not take the easier route of separating/hiding from one another.

Why cannot men and women live, work and worship together equally and without separation. It is almost insulting to men that separation occurs and women are covered completely - as though they are incapable of containing themselves... like lesser mortals if you will.

In addition, in some Islamic countries a woman cannot even go out alone without a male... even a male child. Is this equal?

A husband doing things to make his wife happy is not charitable but a loving thing, as every husband and wife should treat one another. Frankly, I would not tolerate any husband who considers it an act of charity to have sex with me as his wife!
 
your supposed to be seperated in a mosque so that men wont be attracted to women's beauty, that's women wear the mask thing called NIQAB.
 
+Donna Smith In Christian theology charity, or love (agapē), means an unlimited loving-kindness toward all others. The term should not be confused with the more restricted modern use of the word charity to mean benevolent giving. (source:wikipedia) and yes much like Christians believe everyone has sin. In Islam does hold that men are powerless to a women charm. Also as you stated they are not permitted to talk to men that are not their husband and they commonly have women to greet them in stores and such. As I have stated, they had well and good intent but as I also stated the laws of any county have been manipulated and taken to extremes. I am not advocating them, I simply stated the reasons for the less educated commenters on this post (no slight intended). Islamaphobia is breed in a pool of ignorance.
 
I respect your religion, but there is such a thing as self control. If the men are afraid of lusting after women, maybe the men should wear blind folds. The women have done nothing other than being and are segregated and belittled. The differences between men and women are that women have the sense to control themselves.
I wrote this on my husbands page but he agrees with the content of the post.
 
Great for my project on Saudi women's rights!
 
+Steve Burt I am by far not an expert but the wall between them is for both sexes and the prayers or salat that muslims must make involves kneeling and laying on the ground for the most part. I am sure a youtube video would show this. So the concept works in church, as there may have been wardrobe malfunctions before modern times. Even now perhaps. You are right that men could also wear horse blinders outside the house! Also segregated yes, belittled ...well being irresistible is a complement in my book. I good question is (+Jackie McVay this is for you perhaps) how to change a culture? As was said before, this is true for worship. Outside of mosque it is the lack of separation of power that allows this to happen.
 
+T.C. Deane Read my last comment and watch a video of how muslims pray and you might want to reconsider your words. P.S. did your mother teach you to slap people because you don't understand their customs?
 
What!?!? They didn't kill Bill Gates for that? DAMN!
 
Given that Saudi women make up only 15% of the workforce it's not really a value statement so much as a simple fact of economic output... more women in the work force = more economic activity.
 
Before any of us cast a stone, right now in the USA women are being subjected to laws about their reproductive choices by religious influence in government. We may be more progressive but not by much. Read my words carefully. I am only trying to explain a culture many Americans don't understand. +Ramlah Ahmed Thanks for the confirmation, I have heard that before.
 
Maybe people who do not want to encounter points of view different from their own should stay off the Internet. I consider that to be a reason to be on the Internet. Maybe someone can provide a LOGICAL REASON for why my point of view is wrong.
 
+Karl Smithe , and those that can not read a comment and understand what is being said. No one is implying that they would have sex with them or cheat, but a impure thought is visible to god. You should have but one thought at mosque, God being great!
 
+Anurag Sharma lol...nicely done.

+Robert Daggett "In worship this is not a bad idea and certainly not dumb as they should have their mind on worship and not the 'hot' girl in the third row."

That hot girl in the third row is the only thing that got me through church services growing up.
 
Look you cant control yourself not "Her" problem. Your "distracted" not Her problem. I whole heatedly condemn the notion of "stoning" a person to death for ANY reason. A woman should have no less freedom than a man. Period. End of discussion. And before you "go off" on an anti-semetic or anti christian rant... notice we are not the ones blowing people up for being infidels or stoning women for getting in a car with a man... Etc.. Etc.. Etc... I don't care what religion you practice. I do not care what you believe. When you infringe on others rights that belief is completely intolerable. Oh an by the way... Most women would not be tempted in the same way.. so who is deserving of being shielded from whom???
 
+Steve Mayne sorry no notification you +'d me google + at its finest

I didnt figure it was. I just wanted to be clear after living there as an American I have had a real eye opener. Our media only displays what they want unfortunately. 1 small fact about Saudi is that 98% or so of women in Saudi that are living in bedioun cities have at least 1 Masters Degree or higher According to Saudi education statistics in their governmental websites, 80% of these women hold 2 Bachelors degrees in addition to the 1 Masters/PhD. Pretty interesting and basically if you ask many women really living there you might find that living in luxury is more their life style You will never see so many woman wearing Gucci, Prada, Michael Kors, Versace, with BMW's Mercedes and drivers and nannies at home taking care of their 10 kids. Most women dont want or have a need to work.
 
I think that most women find a sense of dominance in Saudi. I have had first hand experience being there.l Some of the laws (driving for instance) is like I just don't get it. But they are treated very respectfully (mostly, not all ppl are the same) . They are very competent and able and dominate households.(common misconception) . The reason why working rates are so low is not because they can't work but because to many staying at home and not working means that they are really rich. The family doesn't need two incomes.
 
Bill Gates went to Islam Land and Muslima asked him a question. He said "Pff you still have patriarchy? What EVER" and popped a wheelie, on his diamond-encrusted BMX that he affords because of the gender parity in the software industry.
 
+Anurag Sharma Since he survived, he proved his point - they were only using half the talent to stone him. :p
 
+T.C. Deane I agree with you. Nothing I said was intened to imply I endorse this outside of mosque. I do not advocate Shia law either. I simply wanted to educate some of the people here that mad benighted comments. You understand agape! I am glad. I don't want the focus to shift to me as this post is very correct. Beside the fact we sit in cubicles all day and that serves the same function...Focus on work.As you can see many here will just joke about stoning and you and I both know it is no joke. I converted to Islam, don't speak arabic, and can not speak for how things are in arabia. I do know how religion has been twisted by men whom seek to use it to oppress the weak minded and powerless. +Karl Smithe I thought that may have been T.C.'s point in mentioning he has remained faithful to his wife.
 
+T.C. Deane I didn't know religion has a binary outcome? Either way I am not the one advocating violence, I don't go around slapping people so I guess I win?
 
Whew can you imagine a country where victims of rape are scrutinized as though they were the transgressors? What an exotic crazy place!
 
+T.C. Deane It's very possible they are intending to protect the hormonally imbalanced crowd of teenage men (i.e. Boys, kids, children, etc.) from said attraction. It might be a bit imbalanced, and doesn't prepare them for the future, but neither does "OMG THIS PEICE OF MDEIA HAS TEH POSSIBILITY OF VIOLENCE/NUDITY/HOMOSEXUALITY IN IT - BAN EEEEEETTTTTT! FOR THE CHILDREN!" - that prevades western culture.
 
+Karl Smithe I was attempting to agree with you and respond to someone misconstruing my comments at the same time. Sorry. Your point is well illustrated here.
 
My wife, who's in her MBA finals, and the mother of our 2 children, and who is a distinguished consultant in her field (locally at least), and who also wears the niqaab (face veil), would shy away from any event where there wasnt some sort of gender separation. And we live in the West.. born and bred.

Don't be too quick to judge others by your own standards. Many of the women (and men!) of this culture actually consider shyness something honourable and praiseworthy.

Again, don't be too quick to judge others by your own standards. It's sad that the Muslims of the world have fallen into judging themselves by others standards also.... Sad.
 
+T.C. Deane Well this is a analoge outcome, you can't "win" as you put it. A proud man knows only himself. While you were busy engaging me you missed some excellent comments from saudi's. Is you want to think you won a argument then you don't understand what is going on here. This is a dialogue. It is very narcissistic of you to think I am engaged in debate with you. I didn't make the laws nor do I influence them. I have clearly stated that: My comments were for educational purposes, the policy of women being separated IN MOSQUE is done you the purpose on keeping men from THINKING of women , Not RAPING THEM OR TOUCHING THEM. Further more, the former comments are fact and can be verified by any of my Muslim brothers. Any other comments are my opinion. They can not be right/wrong win/lose as they are opinion. Besides my statement that I agree they should be equal and not separate outside of mosque. I agree with you yet I am wrong. OK...gotcha. I follow +Annika O'Brien because we share a common love for robotics. I don't make a habit of debate, although you seem to seem to think you are in one....You are not. I sought only to inform people that do not understand Arabic culture, of which you stated you do. I have no desire to debate the ethics or morality of it with you. I appreciate your candor. Blessing be upon you and your family.
 
+T.C. Deane Go tell a Jew that wearing a yamaka is dumb then. I don't know what to tell you. I am not a theologian. You keep coming back to actions. That is not the point. It is the thoughts. Besides the fact that as I previously stated, bowing and kneeling before modern times would have lead to some ruffled robes.
 
+T.C. Deane , +Abdullah Mohammed and +fariha ahmed have made comments that are based in real world experiences. I am a the son of a Irish middle class steel worker in Pennsylvania whom converted to Islam in 2003. Maybe they can explain it to you as I am failing.
 
+T.C. Deane Alot of friends of mine have had similar first impressions. Let's just talk of other things too! I can't always articulate religion (or politics sometimes). But music and robots electronics et cetera. Also I haven't had the chance to hang out over my mobile yet. I knew we were on the same page, just took awhile to be able to get through on this medium. I don't think anything is off topic here. Stuff like this is meant to start a dialogue. Irish, that does explain alot!
 
+fariha ahmed there is no law against women driving! I have lived there and know saudi Law in fact I know some of the royal family and there is NO law agains women driving there is ONLY law against driving without a license but men that are bediouns are running these stupid govt offices and they are refusing women based on what their managers and the heads of Department of Transportation say. It has NOTHING to do with law!

The law strictly dictates anyone can drive that has a license.

but the the mentality of bedioun men is to not give women licenses because they dont want them to end up like us in America very independent and having no dependency on them.

I have lived there in fact still live in Bahrain and NEVER had any problem with men LOL it amazes me to read women writing such crap! just because you had a bad experience doesnt mean its for everyone just like a good experience but I meet fewer people that have had bad experiences. Please dont tarnice Muslims or even Saudi Arabs for that matter!
 
I have never once had a problem in all the years I have lived in Saudi and Bahrain and Kuwait with feeling less important in fact I feel more important because I have to be treated like a queen I have to be treated properly. Only one time did I have a problem and it was with an Arab Bedioun boy! and he was staring at me which was wrong and I am Muslim fully covered w/o niqaab. and I called the police they arrived within 5 minutes took him to the police station and the police chief told him Doesnt matter who you are or what you think you have NO RIGHT to look at a woman of any religion in this matter! and told him if I chose to prosecute him it would be a minimum of 10 years in jail and possibly more physical punishment because I know part of the Royal Family in which I had already called.

So Please know that Men are bad everywhere its the same as these perverts that are peeping toms!
 
Beauty of a women (apart from that normally appear after clothing) is for her husband only. Sex is a noble thing that is allowed only through married relationship. There is a minimum dress code for man and woman made by the God who created men and women. Handshaking, hugging, intentional touching and kissing of opposite sexes are not recommended (unless they are close relatives as mentioned in Quran). These are Islamic teachings. Segregation of sexes for public gatherings are normally done to ease the conditions above.
 
Jason B, Honor killing is not recognized by Islam, those are some cultural practices that name sake muslims do in some regions. Social crime handling is to be done by the court of that region/country.
 
Jason, Islamic teachings are not by human, you may not agree though. Islam is a name for agreeing and following and worshipping the creator, sustainer and cherisher of the whole worlds, human being, and all creatures and everything. Unfortunately people think that we are living here without any aim. And most people don't why we are in earth, what happens after death, what we are supposed to do here, and what is the aim of the life. Most people think that aim of life is acquiring lots of knowledge get great jobs and earn lots of money buy lots of gadgets and visit nice places and relax.. then teach our children to get big job, earn lots of money, buy amusing things and they do the same for their children. Is this what the aim of life? Human is not like any other creature that we see in earth, None of the animals changed the general way they living, but man developing daily, changed method of travel, technologies, communication, etc. Human life is not just a game. There is a creator to the world/universe and all that exists and he is the creator for human beings, and he is the one who publish the instruction manual for human beings. There were many user manuals around in different times, The final edition of user manual for human kind and all till the end is the Quran from the creator, it was revealed from the creator to an unlettered man in a desert about 1400 years ago. Who explained the Quran as it revealed in portions during 23 years. It include many scientific findings, embryonic and many things that he couldn't have known during that time...
 
Jason, Creator was not just handing over a book... During 23 years at different times it was revealed through arch angel gabriel to prophet Mohammed. There were Pagans, Jews and Christians. They were fond of liqours women and tribal wars, but they were good in literature and poetry. The Quran amazed them the literature people amazed about Quran's literature. And There was other miracles given by creator to Prophet Mohammed, many people believed the truth. In 23 years those barbaric people turned to a highly cultured and highly morally superior and good social values and piousness. You must learn the history of dark age westerners call it as dark ages because it was dark in west and Europe, but it was brightening in Arabian region. Victory was the history and there was not even 1% of blood shed of any revolutions happened in the world. Try to find out what is Quran and how it changed people and the history of Prophet Mohammed from authentic sources. All the best.
 
+Shajahan K & +miss khan good work. you are fighting for your religion. Allah will give you better reward for this.

people like +Jason B & +T.C. Deane don't know the history of Islam. the thing what they called society was strictly oppose the women before the advent of Islam. women were beaten & was treated like slaves. Islam gave the rights to women to have share in property etc..
Islam does not oppose the women to take part in social activities when needed, but it is preferred to stay at home & teach their children.

The word "WOMAN" itself means the thing to be protected & to keep safe. but their modern society makes such laws to promote women into offices & market places, and in the end they people called these laws just a" bullshit" when counting the teen/adult sex, physical assault & crime ratio after a statistical survey.

They know that US & western crime ration is touching the highest peaks of the history all over the world. but they would never confess it. huh
 
A religious discussion involving the children of Abraham? I abstain.
 
It's funny how people arguing about it when they don't even related to saudi or islam, your way of living doesn't apply ((everywhere)) and you can't force it on the whole world, people have different cultures, different religions and different customs, if you see yours are right that doesn't mean other's wrong, people here are lived with it and they're happy about it, as you see some muslim's women replied here and stated their opinions about this matter, yeah I know we have a lot of mistakes in our society in both sides women and men ( who doesn't ? ) and we (( the young generation)) are trying to fix it and improve our society.
for your info, most of the women here prefer to cover themselves with veil voluntarily and following their religion, not cause men forced them only, I worked as coordinator in seminars here in saudi, and usually it's women's demand to separate them from men so they can freely focus on the speech, also my mother and my sister have the right to cover herself with veil or not, yet they chose to cover themselves without any interfering from any men.
veil doesn't stop talents at all, they only use it when they want to go outside ((ONLY)) they're study, they're work and they're create just like any other women in the world, the idea that veil women are limited is invalid,one of noble peace prize's winners for 2011 is Tawakel Karman and she is a muslim woman who cover her head, also many of 2012 International Women of Courage Award Winners are muslim's women who also cover their heads
http://www.state.gov/s/gwi/programs/iwoc/2012/bio/index.htm

I don't mind of someone critic our religion, country or culture , but at least be fair.
 
Don't take it personal, we criticize all baseless belief systems propagating fear and hate.
 
+Jason B You did turn this from a discussion of equal rights for women to a soapbox lecture on the dangers of religion from a self proclaimed chauvinist. Cut the head to kill the cancer ehh. This is why I walked away for this talk. I human taught me that electrons exist by the way. I have yet to see one I just have to trust them. For the record, Hitchens at least had intelligent retorts, not your dismissive attitude. We haven't shia law here yet Domestic violence is a real issue and 40 years ago it was worse.
 
+Jason B Note how he expresses himself with mocking people. He doesn't exclaim "crazies!" "dumb" people. I have always had a great deal of respect and I too agree the issue is with religion and law not being separate.
 
Each too there own, I say. Its up to them what way they want to run their own country.
 
Oh wow, reading the comments, without knowing what I already know, I would have felt really sorry for all the people in the middle east. After all, they are just a bunch of loving people who just want to read their book and segregate their women in peace.

Now what could be wrong with that?

Those of you living in the west, and defending their practices...you should REALLY go try living there. Lets see how well that pans out. And hey, if you do like it so much, stay there!

Being a liberal that I am and living in the heart of the bible belt, I often hear how the liberals are destroying America, while I don't take that kind of crap seriously, I do believe that part of the problem we have in this country if the serious lack of perspective from the liberals, who seem to be "fascinated" by the culture of the middle east, and go to great lengths to defend them, all the while calling America evil for not having abortion rights.

Hello? Ever realize that gay people could be stoned to death in those countries? Ever realize that a women can't just wear what she wants, driving a car is such a big deal, and there is no real choice in life, but to obey an oppressive religious government?

Yeah, at least I am smart enough to know what is good and what is dumb.

A good friend (who happens to be a muslim) once told me, "The only two choices I have is to be secular, open minded person who respects everyone and believes in free will or be a good muslim". It took a while for me to understand the statement, and when I did, I was like..."Wtf..."
 
+Patch Rowcester in Arab & Muslim countries women are free to wear, free to eat what they want. u guys don't know the purity of Islam. u always take Islam as u want. but never tries to know what it actually is.

so pls don't speak about (nation & religion) whom u haven't enough knowledge.
 
+Arshmina Khan - Lady, you are so full of it. Just so you know, we have something called the internet here. So go look it up. It didn't take me 2 minutes to find this stuff:

"Some Muslims believe hijab covering for women should be compulsory as part of sharia, i.e. Muslim law. Wearing of the hijab was enforced by the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, and is enforced in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and in the Islamic Republic of Iran. The Taliban's Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan required women to cover not only their head but their face as well, because "the face of a woman is a source of corruption" for men not related to them.[28] While some women wholeheartedly embrace the rules, others protest by observing the rules in an inconsistent fashion, or flouting them whenever possible. Sudan's criminal code allows the flogging or fining of anyone who “violates public morality or wears indecent clothing”, albeit without defining "indecent clothing."

Just stop giving us bs about how women are free to do anything they want. We know that is not true. That is not even a matter of opinion. Its a fact.

That fact that you as a woman defend that religion just goes to show how deluded you really are.
 
+Jason B your style is more Johnny rotten then hitchen. He was able to form intellectual responses and had poise. Christopher Hitchens on Islam and once again your the one in a debate. So declare your personal victory then. Thats what this is about, your not an athesist for our benifit. Just the oppisite you seem to revel in destroying the beliefs of others more that affirming your own. I see this quite often. You dont make a compelling argument and every time you engage believers you think your in a debate, as if a muslim would at some point give in and youll be given exp points.
 
+Jason B how do you know, after all a human told you. Can you prive the existence? Or would you defer to others. Don't side step the question with jokes please. Your not above me.
 
+Robert Daggett - I am confused. You speak about an Islamic man showing charity towards his wife when he has sex with her but then you write above the definition of "charity, or love (agapē)" as in "Christian theology"? Forgive me but that comes over as rather perverse.

I still advocate that it is insulting to men that "Islam does hold that men are powerless to a women charm." as you put it. Rather like original sin being the fault of Eve - the woman in Christianity. It is rather easy to blame the woman for male carnal feelings, is it not? I reiterate that men should have the discipline to overcome them and women should not 'give in' to this weakness by covering themselves so.

As you put it "Islamaphobia is breed in a pool of ignorance." but, in turn, it has to be said, unfortunately, that Islamic teachings are twisted and moulded into what the teacher/reader wants to see/happen and probably taken out of context as much as the Bible has been over the years. There are millions of people all over the world, all with their differing religions and beliefs, who are good, decent, charitable, loving people. Sadly they are tainted with the actions of extremists and those influenced by them.

We in the West cannot force change, equality and fairness (as actually stated in parts of the Quran/Koran I believe!) alone, as it will be deemed that we are interfering into matters of which we know nothing. That change should emanate from the Islamic countries themselves and many would advocate that change. The difficulty is to overcome the more extreme factions. Would you not agree? Or do you think everything is fine as it is?


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Yeah, atheists never do that kind of stuff.
 
I post about Robots and Electronics and nobody cares. I post about a comment referring to the equal treatment and value of citizens and it catches fire. I post pics of Robots and nobody cares. I post pics of myself or something that looks like myself and it catches fire.
 
+Donna Smith that is the second definition of charity. And agape, the unlimited love and kindness to others is the same concept. I don't understand how that is perverse. Jesus is mentioned 23 times in the quran and belief in him as a prophet is required of muslims. I agree with you. The extreme factions are problematic ...but how to stop them. Same with the Christian extremists.
 
While I can understand your strong feelings +Jason B, I have to say that these "religious people" were simply keeping to themselves. it has to be said that it is our (The West) involvement in matters in the Middle East and in other areas, that has inflamed such anti-USA, anti-UK feeling.

I am not saying that we did not get involved without due course on one hand or for our own ends on the other... that is a subject for another post I believe. I like to think we did it/do it for the greater good... to protect the oppressed etc.

In any case, it is because we have 'interfered' if you will and continue to do so, that we have riled the opposition.
(The Christians in Europe did it in the Crusades centuries ago - they were the religious zealots then! "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose", eh?).
 
+Jason B I am 32, so for 25 years I have been peacefully religious. Not pius mind you, but religious. Thanks for sidesteping my question again. PA has open court records, I don't beat my wife. You have not done much but invoke violence. I pity you. Honestly
 
+Jason B - thank you for the well-timed dose of humour (lol). We would all have less problems if we all laughed together more!
 
+Robert Daggett - I do not know if you are intentionally misunderstanding me in order to put over a theological point, or not! I believe it is perverse to demonstrate a point about Islamic sense of charity by quoting Christian theology.

Yes I know, Jesus Christ is recognised as a prophet in Islam. I do not see how that demonstrates your point either.
 
+Jason B - I agree with you wholeheartedly. I would emphatically say "Amen", but I wouldn't want that it to be misconstrued.
 
+Jason B - Please. Stop using logic to prove people wrong! You are giving me a headache with all that sensible comments you are making.
 
+Annika O'Brien - I think its a good thing that there are people who are passionate about equal treatment of women (mind you, I said equal, not preferential treatment of women to make up for all the mistakes made by mankind).

There are few morons who are posting the usual crap about god blessing them for defending religion and what not, but so far, reading the posts of +Jason B , I have to say, I am happy there are people who can see things as they are.
 
Exactly! +Patch Rowcester Preferential treatment implies I'm not as qualified as my male counterparts and that's what turns women in power into cold heartless b****es.
 
+Donna Smith they are one in the same. It was the first definition I found. I misunderstand how that is perverse. I program plcs , I am an electrician. Not much of a theologian. Its my understanding the virtue is universal.
 
+Annika O'Brien - Its good to know that you are open minded and so intelligent. But then again, I wouldn't expect any less from an engineer and a scientist.
 
+Robert Daggett - I disagree - sex and love/agape/charity are not one and same thing. Sex can be a physical demonstration of love, but it is not the emotion, although the latter can be contained therein.

I used 'perverse' as a figure of speech, as I think using the teaching of one religion to explain another is.

We were not discussing universal virtue, as well you know.
 
When the two concepts, charity (virtue) are fundamentally the same. I couldn't exclude the concept of charity just because another religion already "took it" Jesus said the road to happyness is though love and charity does not make that teaching exclusive to Christians. It's not a perversion of islam to say so either. That's just my opinion However. Agape is actually a greek word. Unlimited kindness. Just as I am kind to others not because I want to, but as charity. Many times I do things for my wife not because I want to but because it makes her happy. That is the charity I speak of, like watching "beaches" or johnny depp movies.
 
That's not what I meant. The Christian virtue of charity and the Muslim value are identical.
 
+Jason B The Khmer Rouge also classified people by religion and ethnic group. They banned all religion and dispersed minority groups, forbidding them to speak their languages or to practice their customs. They especially targeted Buddhist monks, Muslims, Christians, Western-educated intellectuals, educated people in general, people who had contact with Western countries or with Vietnam, disabled people, and the ethnic Chinese, Laotians and Vietnamese. So that didn't work to well. Another solution will have to emerge. You can blame religion but this is in fact a human condition.
 
Sorry +Robert Daggett - your argument is still confused. You are clouding the fact as you could not answer my probing clearly. It is no good pontificating about virtue when I asked you how marital sex can be compared with charity (or love as you put it). It is perverse to take this 'Islamic love' as you see it and compare with a Christian theology. Of course being kind and doing nice/good things for people is a form of love, but this is not to compared with physical sex.

By the way - no need to explain the meaning of 'agape' as I speak Greek!!
 
Sorry but I don't know how much clearly I can state this. In philosophy and logic, an argument is an attempt to persuade someone of something, by giving reasons or evidence for accepting a particular
conclusion. That is not why I am here. I am not arguing. Nor can I wrong or confused any more than someone stating they love orange or blue. If you want an argument I am sure someone here will oblige you. As I will not. I enjoy discussion but not arguments. I have no desire to persuade anyone here. I stated a reason for separation in mosque and should have muted this. I don't even know what pontificating means. I know about hysteresis in series wound motors well. At thia point you have exceeded my ability to articulate my beliefs to you.
 
Once again, you have waffled on and not answered a direct question. Well done, you must like the sound of your own voice.

I have no compulsion to argue nor to persuade... I just get irritated when a person cannot answer a simple question clearly and attempts to befuddle the audience in an attempt to cover their inability.

NB: I have no idea what 'hysteresis' means in an engineering sense, only the literary meaning which is 'shortcoming' and which describes your replies accurately, as they have 'fallen short'!
 
Your angry I can not express my beliefs to you in a way you can clearly understand. That is rich. If I have befuddled you I assure you I must have that inate talent. This would explain why wire panels instead of writing speeches. This person however is a writer and would most likely love to argue with you. Please contact him concerning and hysteresis you find in his article. http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/sex_as_sadaqa.htm
 
Thanks but no thanks. You confuse anger with irritation. This is the arena in which I prefer to converse. I have enough poignant reading material of my own.
 
+Robert Daggett SOOO...you intentionally and willfully believe Mohamed flew on a magic horse to heaven? I do hope you're sterilized and had no children.
 
+G. Michael Williams I have two sons. They are free to choose what religion suits them. I don't literally interpret religious doctrine. I just learned a new word too. Pontificating, expression of opinion domaticly, arrogant assertion of ones opinion.
 
before learning his name and his family. Secondly, rebuffing the generosity that another shows to him. And thirdly, going to his wife and having intercourse with her before talking to her and gaining her intimacy, satisfying his need from her before she has satisfied her need from him." (Daylami) This is another of the things implied by the saying that one's wife is "a tilth unto you." (Quran, 2:223) The imagery is that of a farmer taking care of his fields. According to Mawlana Abul-Ala Mawdudi: "The farmer sows the seed in order to reap the harvest, but he does not sow it out of season or cultivate it in a manner which will injure or exhaust the soil. He is wise and considerate, and does not run riot." (Afzalur Rahman, Quranic Sciences, London 1981, p.285) Likewise, in the case of husband and wife, the husband should not just: “Take hold of his wife and rub the seed and finish the business of procreation. The damage in this case could sometimes be irreparable, because a woman, unlike a farm, is very sensitive and has emotions, feelings, and strong passions which need full satisfaction and attention in a proper and appropriate manner.” (Afzalur Rahman, Quranic Sciences, London 1981, p. 286) If this is not taken into consideration, and the wife is not properly prepared to start lovemaking, or is unsatisfied when it is finished, there could be many psychological and physiological complications leading to frigidity and other abnormalities. Indeed, many husbands eventually become disappointed with their wives, believing them to be frigid or unable to respond to their activities (unlike the sirens on the film or TV screen), and they wonder what is wrong with them. A possible explanation will follow in a moment. Allah created male and female from a single soul in order that man might live with her in serenity (Quran, 7:189), and not in unhappiness, frustration and strife. If your marriage is frankly awful, then you must ask yourself how such a desperate and tragic scenario could be regarded by anyone as "half the Faith." According to a hadith: "Not one of you should fall upon his wife like an animal; but let there first be a messenger between you." "And what is that messenger?" they asked, and he replied: "Kisses and words." (Daylami) These "kisses and words" do not just include foreplay once intimacy has commenced. To set the right mood, little signals should begin well in advance, so that the wife has a clue as to what is coming, and is pleasantly expectant, and also has adequate time to make herself clean, attractive and ready. As regards intimacy itself, all men know that they cannot achieve sexual fulfillment if they are not aroused. They should also realise that it is actually harmful and painful for the female organs to be used for sex without proper preparation. In simple biological terms, the woman's private parts need a kind of natural lubrication before the sexual act takes place. For this, Allah has created special g
 
+G. Michael Williams just read your two comments on this post. Very insightful but of them. You seem to be a vulture of sorts. You have added nothing to the discussion of equality for women in the global work force. Your only original thought is to ridicule others using a literal interpretation of religious doctrine. I am also amused by your setrile comment. You might like rick sanatorium, he also wants to control people's reproductive choices. I have a lot of atheist friends, I haven't stoned yet, they made more compelling arguments then yours. They at least don't make wild assertions about my beliefs as you have. I don't think jonah was literally swallowed by a whale. When someone is hungry enough to eat a horse, I don't assume they are stalking esquines. Then again as a marine I guess your accustom to forcing your beliefs on others. I can honestly say I have never been employed to terrorise small African countries. Thanks for your concern. I don't need advice from a hired thug as to how to live my life.
 
+Robert Daggett so you just believe in a god based upon a religion in which you don't believe in the "holy word"......interesting. Stupid but, interesting.
 
It's like the difference between sop and sog. Sorry you feel that way. As stupid atheism I guess. Agnostic is the only proven doctrine. I follow the teachings of the quran. I am not required to believe in flying horses to be a muslim. Only one true god. Sorry you feel that way. The atheists here have not made a compelling argument to persuade me either. I don't understand that. Condescension doesn't compell people. Actually my opinion of them goes down with every comment. Thanks for your input, and verbal sniping.
 
LOL, and Muzzies have made a compelling argument for you to believe in a sky daddy? Please share this wisdom.
 
+Patch Rowcester so you think the thing what you called internet we don't have that? huh.. Mr. how can you refer any internet post or any stuff? what is its credibility? even i can make my own website related to this kinda stuff & can post whatever i want.. you guys are just...........

Secondly if i confess whatever you are saying & posted is true, than who are you to pin point the laws & matters of a nation or religion. what is all this to you. Every country, nation, religion has its own norm, values, beliefs. Nobody can publicly criticize over these thing, not even you.

Being a Muslim, Arab or Asian woman if have no problem wearing veil. I do what my Allah(Creator) asked me to do. This is the matter between My Allah & myself. So, keep yourself away from our matters.
 
+Patch Rowcester and as i said earlier, you are not a Muslim, so you don't understand what Islam actually is. Similarly you cannot understand why it is taught in Islam to wear veil (for woman).
Being a Muslim i am sorry if any of my word hurt you. I didn't mean that. But also i do not allow you or any body to speak incorrect or abuse Islam.
 
Really? If someone doesn't subscribe to one particular delusion they can't understand?

Several reasons idiots wear the veils. 1) To show modesty before god, 2) To subscribe to the religious dogma 3) Men 100's and 1,000's of years ago let themselves commit rape etc... on a pretty regular basis so hiding behind layers of fabric sort of cut of the fantasy side.

Since, their is no god, that pretty much leaves us with barbaric men unable to control themselves and a prophylactic attempt to curb an unwanted social problem by the liars clergy. Much like the priests did during the plaque and cleanliness became religious virtue.
 
+G. Michael Williams here i can say only two words as a compliment for yourself.. DEAF & DUMB.. a person who really doesn't know about a religion but he makes judgements according to his state of mind, according to what is told to him.
Let me ask you 1 question, being unbiased have you ever tried to investigate or know what essentially Islam is? & why it's been ordered for a women to wear veil?

Above all are your impartial & biased statements. you choose what u want to choose. because the life you are spending have a lot of fun in this world. right? you don't want to change the whole scenario. But i know you don't feel harmony & serenity by heart. You rarely mull over the day of judgement & eternal life after death but forgets that soon.

So, in a point of fact you are nothing but deaf & dumb...
 
+Arshmina Khan Islam is just another fucked up, self delusional worship of the supernatural. There are no gods...grow up and quit believing in sky daddy.
 
Ok, if not self delusion, show a shred of evidence. Faith is by definition delusion.
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